Ultimate Archer Build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ultimate Archer Build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LachlarlanIII
05-15-07, 06:54 PM I'd like to call this build the Ultimate Archer, but I'm sure someone will object if I do so.

Wood Elf

Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1

Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10

1: Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
2: Fighter 2 - *Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
3: Fighter 3 - Precise Shot
4: Fighter 4 - *Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), Dex 18
5: Fighter 5
6: Fighter 6 - Rapid Shot, *Improved Initiative
7: Exotic Weapon Master 1
8: Fighter 7 - Dex 19
9: Fighter 8 - Manyshot, *Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
10: Fighter 9
11: Fighter 10 - *Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
12: Fighter 11 - Improved Precise Shot, Dex 20
13: Fighter 12 - *Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatbow)
14: Fighter 13
15: Fighter 14 - Improved Rapid Shot, *Penetrating Shot

Build is at +30/+25/+20 to hit normally and +30/+30/+25/+20 with rapid shot after magic and does 1d10+15 damage with a +6 strength bow.
Genghis Cohen
05-15-07, 07:08 PM This would be a very effective, although one dimensional build.
There are several changes that I would definitely make. I'd lower the con and charisma by two, and raise the strength and wisdom by two. Why mess around with a greatbow if you'll only have a 16 strength? Also, you will need all the help with will saves with this build. I'd dump Improved Initiative for Woodlands Archer. I'd move Many Shot to 15th level when you'll be taking Improved Rapid Shot. This will allow you to take Greater Weapon Focus at 9th, Improved Precise at 11th, and Penetrating Shot at 12th.
Zanzibax
05-15-07, 07:28 PM I think if you're missing Ranged Disarm you're only half the archer you ought to be.

*snicker*
LachlarlanIII
05-15-07, 08:05 PM I think if you're missing Ranged Disarm you're only half the archer you ought to be.

*snicker*

What would a greatbow be counted as for a disarm check?
clannagh
05-15-07, 10:26 PM What would a greatbow be counted as for a disarm check?

From memory only ..

bows count as light
bows count as two handed
creature size differences are ignored for ranged disarm

someone might want to look that up and confirm it though
Sieylianna
05-16-07, 07:59 AM I think you need some ranger levels in there for the ultimate archer. You don't have the arrow mind spell or the Order of the bow initate ability to fire when threatened without provoking.

You don't get precise shot until 3rd or rapid shot until 6th. I think straight ranger is probably better at least until 7th level. He may be tough at 15th, but there are weaknesses getting there.

Ed
LachlarlanIII
05-16-07, 09:36 AM I think you need some ranger levels in there for the ultimate archer. You don't have the arrow mind spell or the Order of the bow initate ability to fire when threatened without provoking.

You don't get precise shot until 3rd or rapid shot until 6th. I think straight ranger is probably better at least until 7th level. He may be tough at 15th, but there are weaknesses getting there.

Ed

Exotic Weapon Master has a trick that lets me fire without provoking while using an exotic ranged weapon.

The Greatbow is an exotic ranged weapon.

The build written can be modified to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot by 2nd level.
Bold
05-16-07, 10:51 AM The build written can be modified to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot by 2nd level.

I think that's probably a good idea, especially for Precise Shot.

If you wanted to save a feat and diversify your levels a bit, the Arrowmind spell or a little bit of OotBI would be an alternative way to shoot at close range, and a build geared towards one of those might have other benefits (e.g. better Will save, either from higher WIS or levels in OotBI).

Going at least Fighter4 is a given, since every archer needs Weap. Spec. (assuming you're not going Templar). Ranger2/OotBI2 is a nice mix since it gives you a decent boost to your Will save, plus Rapid Shot and Close Combat Shot. The prereqs for OotBI are minimal--just the archery feats you'll already have, plus some small skill point requirements (these would be largely taken care of if your first level is Ranger). This is the route I went; in fact, I'm planning on doing six levels of OotBI for Close Combat Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, and Sharp-Shooting. One of the main benefits is the boost to Will (+5 over six levels), but the free feats are excellent, and I might delay or even omit Manyshot entirely since I'll have the Ranged Precision to use when I'm limited to a standard action for my attack.

The alternative is Fighter4/Ranger4, with a WIS of 12. You'd get Rapid Shot and the abililty to cast Arrow Mind once a day, plus Endurance (meh) and an animal companion. And if you're going to go Ranger4, you'd might as well go Ranger6 for the free Manyshot feat.
berpo
05-16-07, 10:19 PM I think thatr your build is optimal for a snow elf... it will give something like that:

Snow Elf

Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1

Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

1: Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, * Precise Shot
2: Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot
3: Fighter 3 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
4: Fighter 4 - *Weapon Focus (Greatbow), Dex 18
5: Fighter 5
6: Fighter 6 - Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), *Woodland archery
7: Exotic Weapon Master 1
8: Fighter 7 - Dex 19
9: Fighter 8 - Manyshot, *Improved Rapid Shot
10: Fighter 9
11: Fighter 10 - *Improved Precise Shot
12: Fighter 11 - Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
13: Fighter 12 - * Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow), Dex 20
14: Fighter 13
15: Fighter 14 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), *Penetrating Shot
_metz_
05-17-07, 02:43 AM I think that your build is optimal for a snow elf... it will give something like that:

Snow Elf

Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1

Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

Your Build is a 30 point buy.

I would go with (28 points):

Wood Elf

Str 16
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 6
Wis 12 (Arrow mind is fun)
Cha 8

Stat bumps would go probably to Dex and then either Str or Dex (depending on what you are after)

Problem with going lots of fighter though, is that your spot will be shocking. If you worked in a little Ranger here and there

You will lose 1 feat, but will pick up spot so you can actually see what you are shooting at lol. - Also some track is always nice.

Then you will not need exotic weapon master or the Great bow, as you will have arrow mind for when you do need it. With WIS 12 you will be able to do it a few times a day. (Will last 4 minutes each use and is immediate action to cast - also gives you AoOs and threatening with your bow)

And with a few pearls of power (access is usually easy to find, 1,000GP only) Then you can cast it a few times a day.
_metz_
05-17-07, 03:14 AM Here is an adaptation of your build: (Alternative that uses PT)

Wood Elf

Str 16/18
Dex 17
Con 14/12
Int 6
Wis 12
Cha 8

1: Ranger 1 - Point Blank Shot, *Track
2: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3: Fighter 1 - True Believer *Weapon Focus (Comp. Longbow)
4: Fighter 2 - *Precise Shot Dex 18
5: Barbarian1: Rage
6: Pious Templar 1: Extra Rage
7: Pious Templar 2:
8: Pious Templar 3: Weapon Specialisation Dex 19
9: Pious Templar 4: Many shot *Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
10: Ranger3: Endurance
11: Ranger4: (Arrowmind)
12: Fighter 3 - Dex 20 Improved Precise Shot,
13: Fighter 4 - *Penetrating Shot
14: Fighter 5
15: Fighter 6 *Improved Rapid Shot, Far Shot

- The Rage makes up for the loss of Greater Weapon Spec.

- Arrow mind Removes the Need for Exotic Weapon Master

- With Barbarian you can now use a +5 Bow WITHOUT gloves + get more movement

And in return you pick up: Mettle, Track, Endurance, a LOT more skill points, and the ability to spot. (Plus a heck of a lot more skill points - despite INT 6)

You will pick up an XP penalty at level 13-15 BUT this will just extend your character's life and give you a bit of extra gold.

You can also drop CON to 12 and boost Str to 18 - I just really like Con, but the STR is probably more optimal.
Japangirl
05-17-07, 03:21 AM And with a few pearls of power (open access, 1,000GP only) Then you can cast it a few times a day.

Quick caveat: pearls of power are not open access, but rather NONC and you have to see them on an AR before you can buy them or craft them.

Oh, and Metz, Con is more optimal :).
_metz_
05-17-07, 03:22 AM My bad, but they do crop up ALL The time.

I know a core that gives core access to some too. shouldn't be an issue getting any :)

(Well not first level ones anyways)
LachlarlanIII
05-17-07, 10:30 AM What exactly does Arrow Mind do that is so superior to the EWM's trick or the OotBI's close combat shot?

A straight Fighter gets more hit points and more feats.

A Ranger gets less hit points, the same line of feats, and less feats total.

Skill points aren't worth beans to the build so that shouldn't be an issue.

Exotic Weapon Master gets close combat shooting 2 levels later, and doesn't have to worry about not having a spell available to cast or spending/wasting gold on pearls of power when that money can better be spent upgrading his weapon/armor/Dex enhancement/Str enhancement and so forth.

Non-crafters, after all, don't often have the luxury of spending their money on whatever fancies them at the moment.
_metz_
05-17-07, 10:43 AM With Arrow mind you threaten with your bow That means that you can provide flank, shoot away (no AoOs) AND if someone moves through your threatened area then they provoke attacks of opportunity against you (which you can use to shoot them with)

Its an incredible spell.

2 levels of OotB will save you taking AoOs, only you lose out on skill points, but that was my other suggestion.

(Ranger2, Barbarian1 Fighter6 PT4 OotB2 - not necessarily in that order)

Skills were for spot.

As I said if you don't care about skills, I would still go OotB over EWM. AS you have to sink a feat and a level, may as well just take two levels of it and drop the two fighter levels that were giving you the extra feat.

IF you still don't want the ranger then Fighter 8 for greater weapon spec works too I guess.

BUT I would try to work Barbarian and extra rage into the build somehow.
LachlarlanIII
05-17-07, 11:32 AM By taking four levels of Ranger, I would be giving up three feats in order to cast one spell so I can threaten with a bow.

That's not a very good trade IMO.

I don't intend to be standing next to my enemy while shooting anyway. The ability to fire without provoking is insurance so that I'm not completely useless when in a 30 ft.x30 ft. room with a creature that has 20 ft. reach.
Grizzled Gryphon
05-17-07, 11:54 AM Can you make Arrow Mind Persistant? Having it all day is much better than its regular duration. Well, I assume it is, I don't see that spell having a duration better than a minute per level, and I doubt it is that long.
Sieylianna
05-17-07, 12:46 PM By taking four levels of Ranger, I would be giving up three feats in order to cast one spell so I can threaten with a bow.

That's not a very good trade IMO.

I don't intend to be standing next to my enemy while shooting anyway. The ability to fire without provoking is insurance so that I'm not completely useless when in a 30 ft.x30 ft. room with a creature that has 20 ft. reach.

You would be giving up two feats since you get rapid shot as a 2nd level ranger. You would also have track, so you could contribute outside of combat. And you'd have a Spot score, so you might not be surprised all the time.

Ed
_metz_
05-17-07, 10:16 PM Technically you would lose only one feat as Improved initiative is less necessary and is replaced by True Believer, and You don't need Exotic Weapon Prof. Great bow anymore.

In return you pick up Mettle (great ability) Some Pious Templar Spells, (Also very useful) and Track, as well as Spot/Listen as class skills (pretty important for someone who doesn't just swing an axe blindly)

Not to mention I think the Barbarian will be extremely useful - Rage and the extra movement are good for many archer builds. (Can buy a high str bow early and use it when raging)
Timlagor
05-18-07, 07:07 AM I just want to say that my Archer is better than your :P
Camden
05-18-07, 12:43 PM With Arrow mind you threaten with your bow That means that you can provide flank, shoot away (no AoOs) AND if someone moves through your threatened area then they provoke attacks of opportunity against you (which you can use to shoot them with)

Its an incredible spell.

2 levels of OotB will save you taking AoOs, only you lose out on skill points, but that was my other suggestion.

(Ranger2, Barbarian1 Fighter6 PT4 OotB2 - not necessarily in that order)

Skills were for spot.

As I said if you don't care about skills, I would still go OotB over EWM. AS you have to sink a feat and a level, may as well just take two levels of it and drop the two fighter levels that were giving you the extra feat.

IF you still don't want the ranger then Fighter 8 for greater weapon spec works too I guess.

BUT I would try to work Barbarian and extra rage into the build somehow.

Greater Weapon Focus = Fighter 8
Greater Weapon Spec = Fighter 12

Personally I have the Fighter12/OotB2 build. I have more than reasonable INT (14) so when I hit the OoTB levels I sunk all my
skill points into Spot, for both levels , then spent the 2 points /level to keep it up with the progression.

Arrowmind is all well and good, but tbh I think your better served with an Elvencraft Bow. It allows you to threaten... There are a few mods out there that give you access, as well as a few MetaOrgs, coupled with the fact that you shouldn't be near the front as an Archer.

The idea of a level of Barbie into mix is, imho, crazy. You buy a bow with a greater Str on it for when you rage. You upgrade that bow (as your primary weapon) then take the penalties for using it when your not raging...

With the normal full attack at 12 (kitted out) it's 5 attacks/round Rapid and haste, so you get an extra 2 points of damage/arrow, or 10pts/round for taking a -2 on using your bow when not using.

Why not take the levels of fighter and pickup RWM, +2Hit +2Dam, and no penalties...

Looking at the Feats available for an Archer, I'm not sure it is possible to wangle in Extra Rage. I know I'm having difficulty trying to get anything extra in on its own, and having to train out just to get RWM...

Currently my feats are

CL1 F1 PBlank, PShot, RShot
CL2 F2 QDraw
CL3 F3 WF LongBow
CL4 F4 WS LongBow
CL5 F5 ---
CL6 F6 Manyshot, ImpRapid
CL7 Ootb2 ---
CL8 OotB2 ---
CL9 F7 ImpCrit
CL10 F8 GWF LongBow
CL11 F9
CL12 F10 IPS, Ranged Disarm
CL13 F11
CL14 F12 GWS LongBow (trainned out ImpCrit for RWM)
CL15 ??? ?ImpCrit?

Looking at what I have there, I can;t see where the Barbie would move into the build, or why I would need the extra Movement. I'm an Archer, I do the 5' shuffle...
boolean
05-20-07, 05:43 AM Can you make Arrow Mind Persistant? Yes, but not in LG. (Persistent spell = closed. It's also hard for a ranger to get 7th level spells.)
Having it all day is much better than its regular duration. Well, I assume it is, I don't see that spell having a duration better than a minute per level, and I doubt it is that long.

Actually, the duration is one minute per level, and it can be cast as an immediate action, so it's easy to have it whenever you need it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LachlarlanIII 05-15-07, 06:54 PM	I'd like to call this build the Ultimate Archer, but I'm sure someone will object if I do so. Wood Elf Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10 1: Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow) 2: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Greatbow) 3: Fighter 3 - Precise Shot 4: Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), Dex 18 5: Fighter 5 6: Fighter 6 - Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative 7: Exotic Weapon Master 1 8: Fighter 7 - Dex 19 9: Fighter 8 - Manyshot, Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10 - Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow) 12: Fighter 11 - Improved Precise Shot, Dex 20 13: Fighter 12 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatbow) 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14 - Improved Rapid Shot, Penetrating Shot Build is at +30/+25/+20 to hit normally and +30/+30/+25/+20 with rapid shot after magic and does 1d10+15 damage with a +6 strength bow.
Genghis Cohen 05-15-07, 07:08 PM	This would be a very effective, although one dimensional build. There are several changes that I would definitely make. I'd lower the con and charisma by two, and raise the strength and wisdom by two. Why mess around with a greatbow if you'll only have a 16 strength? Also, you will need all the help with will saves with this build. I'd dump Improved Initiative for Woodlands Archer. I'd move Many Shot to 15th level when you'll be taking Improved Rapid Shot. This will allow you to take Greater Weapon Focus at 9th, Improved Precise at 11th, and Penetrating Shot at 12th.
Zanzibax 05-15-07, 07:28 PM	I think if you're missing Ranged Disarm you're only half the archer you ought to be. snicker
LachlarlanIII 05-15-07, 08:05 PM	I think if you're missing Ranged Disarm you're only half the archer you ought to be. snicker What would a greatbow be counted as for a disarm check?
clannagh 05-15-07, 10:26 PM	What would a greatbow be counted as for a disarm check? From memory only .. bows count as light bows count as two handed creature size differences are ignored for ranged disarm someone might want to look that up and confirm it though
Sieylianna 05-16-07, 07:59 AM	I think you need some ranger levels in there for the ultimate archer. You don't have the arrow mind spell or the Order of the bow initate ability to fire when threatened without provoking. You don't get precise shot until 3rd or rapid shot until 6th. I think straight ranger is probably better at least until 7th level. He may be tough at 15th, but there are weaknesses getting there. Ed
LachlarlanIII 05-16-07, 09:36 AM	I think you need some ranger levels in there for the ultimate archer. You don't have the arrow mind spell or the Order of the bow initate ability to fire when threatened without provoking. You don't get precise shot until 3rd or rapid shot until 6th. I think straight ranger is probably better at least until 7th level. He may be tough at 15th, but there are weaknesses getting there. Ed Exotic Weapon Master has a trick that lets me fire without provoking while using an exotic ranged weapon. The Greatbow is an exotic ranged weapon. The build written can be modified to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot by 2nd level.
Bold 05-16-07, 10:51 AM	The build written can be modified to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot by 2nd level. I think that's probably a good idea, especially for Precise Shot. If you wanted to save a feat and diversify your levels a bit, the Arrowmind spell or a little bit of OotBI would be an alternative way to shoot at close range, and a build geared towards one of those might have other benefits (e.g. better Will save, either from higher WIS or levels in OotBI). Going at least Fighter4 is a given, since every archer needs Weap. Spec. (assuming you're not going Templar). Ranger2/OotBI2 is a nice mix since it gives you a decent boost to your Will save, plus Rapid Shot and Close Combat Shot. The prereqs for OotBI are minimal--just the archery feats you'll already have, plus some small skill point requirements (these would be largely taken care of if your first level is Ranger). This is the route I went; in fact, I'm planning on doing six levels of OotBI for Close Combat Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, and Sharp-Shooting. One of the main benefits is the boost to Will (+5 over six levels), but the free feats are excellent, and I might delay or even omit Manyshot entirely since I'll have the Ranged Precision to use when I'm limited to a standard action for my attack. The alternative is Fighter4/Ranger4, with a WIS of 12. You'd get Rapid Shot and the abililty to cast Arrow Mind once a day, plus Endurance (meh) and an animal companion. And if you're going to go Ranger4, you'd might as well go Ranger6 for the free Manyshot feat.
berpo 05-16-07, 10:19 PM	I think thatr your build is optimal for a snow elf... it will give something like that: Snow Elf Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Fighter 1 - Point Blank Shot, * Precise Shot 2: Fighter 2 - Rapid Shot 3: Fighter 3 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow) 4: Fighter 4 - Weapon Focus (Greatbow), Dex 18 5: Fighter 5 6: Fighter 6 - Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), Woodland archery 7: Exotic Weapon Master 1 8: Fighter 7 - Dex 19 9: Fighter 8 - Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot 10: Fighter 9 11: Fighter 10 - Improved Precise Shot 12: Fighter 11 - Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 13: Fighter 12 - * Greater Weapon Focus (Greatbow), Dex 20 14: Fighter 13 15: Fighter 14 - Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatbow), *Penetrating Shot
_metz_ 05-17-07, 02:43 AM	I think that your build is optimal for a snow elf... it will give something like that: Snow Elf Fighter 14 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Your Build is a 30 point buy. I would go with (28 points): Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 12 (Arrow mind is fun) Cha 8 Stat bumps would go probably to Dex and then either Str or Dex (depending on what you are after) Problem with going lots of fighter though, is that your spot will be shocking. If you worked in a little Ranger here and there You will lose 1 feat, but will pick up spot so you can actually see what you are shooting at lol. - Also some track is always nice. Then you will not need exotic weapon master or the Great bow, as you will have arrow mind for when you do need it. With WIS 12 you will be able to do it a few times a day. (Will last 4 minutes each use and is immediate action to cast - also gives you AoOs and threatening with your bow) And with a few pearls of power (access is usually easy to find, 1,000GP only) Then you can cast it a few times a day.
_metz_ 05-17-07, 03:14 AM	Here is an adaptation of your build: (Alternative that uses PT) Wood Elf Str 16/18 Dex 17 Con 14/12 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 8 1: Ranger 1 - Point Blank Shot, Track 2: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot 3: Fighter 1 - True Believer Weapon Focus (Comp. Longbow) 4: Fighter 2 - Precise Shot Dex 18 5: Barbarian1: Rage 6: Pious Templar 1: Extra Rage 7: Pious Templar 2: 8: Pious Templar 3: Weapon Specialisation Dex 19 9: Pious Templar 4: Many shot Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 10: Ranger3: Endurance 11: Ranger4: (Arrowmind) 12: Fighter 3 - Dex 20 Improved Precise Shot, 13: Fighter 4 - Penetrating Shot 14: Fighter 5 15: Fighter 6 Improved Rapid Shot, Far Shot - The Rage makes up for the loss of Greater Weapon Spec. - Arrow mind Removes the Need for Exotic Weapon Master - With Barbarian you can now use a +5 Bow WITHOUT gloves + get more movement And in return you pick up: Mettle, Track, Endurance, a LOT more skill points, and the ability to spot. (Plus a heck of a lot more skill points - despite INT 6) You will pick up an XP penalty at level 13-15 BUT this will just extend your character's life and give you a bit of extra gold. You can also drop CON to 12 and boost Str to 18 - I just really like Con, but the STR is probably more optimal.
Japangirl 05-17-07, 03:21 AM	And with a few pearls of power (open access, 1,000GP only) Then you can cast it a few times a day. Quick caveat: pearls of power are not open access, but rather NONC and you have to see them on an AR before you can buy them or craft them. Oh, and Metz, Con is more optimal :).
_metz_ 05-17-07, 03:22 AM	My bad, but they do crop up ALL The time. I know a core that gives core access to some too. shouldn't be an issue getting any :) (Well not first level ones anyways)
LachlarlanIII 05-17-07, 10:30 AM	What exactly does Arrow Mind do that is so superior to the EWM's trick or the OotBI's close combat shot? A straight Fighter gets more hit points and more feats. A Ranger gets less hit points, the same line of feats, and less feats total. Skill points aren't worth beans to the build so that shouldn't be an issue. Exotic Weapon Master gets close combat shooting 2 levels later, and doesn't have to worry about not having a spell available to cast or spending/wasting gold on pearls of power when that money can better be spent upgrading his weapon/armor/Dex enhancement/Str enhancement and so forth. Non-crafters, after all, don't often have the luxury of spending their money on whatever fancies them at the moment.
_metz_ 05-17-07, 10:43 AM	With Arrow mind you threaten with your bow That means that you can provide flank, shoot away (no AoOs) AND if someone moves through your threatened area then they provoke attacks of opportunity against you (which you can use to shoot them with) Its an incredible spell. 2 levels of OotB will save you taking AoOs, only you lose out on skill points, but that was my other suggestion. (Ranger2, Barbarian1 Fighter6 PT4 OotB2 - not necessarily in that order) Skills were for spot. As I said if you don't care about skills, I would still go OotB over EWM. AS you have to sink a feat and a level, may as well just take two levels of it and drop the two fighter levels that were giving you the extra feat. IF you still don't want the ranger then Fighter 8 for greater weapon spec works too I guess. BUT I would try to work Barbarian and extra rage into the build somehow.
LachlarlanIII 05-17-07, 11:32 AM	By taking four levels of Ranger, I would be giving up three feats in order to cast one spell so I can threaten with a bow. That's not a very good trade IMO. I don't intend to be standing next to my enemy while shooting anyway. The ability to fire without provoking is insurance so that I'm not completely useless when in a 30 ft.x30 ft. room with a creature that has 20 ft. reach.
Grizzled Gryphon 05-17-07, 11:54 AM	Can you make Arrow Mind Persistant? Having it all day is much better than its regular duration. Well, I assume it is, I don't see that spell having a duration better than a minute per level, and I doubt it is that long.
Sieylianna 05-17-07, 12:46 PM	By taking four levels of Ranger, I would be giving up three feats in order to cast one spell so I can threaten with a bow. That's not a very good trade IMO. I don't intend to be standing next to my enemy while shooting anyway. The ability to fire without provoking is insurance so that I'm not completely useless when in a 30 ft.x30 ft. room with a creature that has 20 ft. reach. You would be giving up two feats since you get rapid shot as a 2nd level ranger. You would also have track, so you could contribute outside of combat. And you'd have a Spot score, so you might not be surprised all the time. Ed
_metz_ 05-17-07, 10:16 PM	Technically you would lose only one feat as Improved initiative is less necessary and is replaced by True Believer, and You don't need Exotic Weapon Prof. Great bow anymore. In return you pick up Mettle (great ability) Some Pious Templar Spells, (Also very useful) and Track, as well as Spot/Listen as class skills (pretty important for someone who doesn't just swing an axe blindly) Not to mention I think the Barbarian will be extremely useful - Rage and the extra movement are good for many archer builds. (Can buy a high str bow early and use it when raging)
Timlagor 05-18-07, 07:07 AM	I just want to say that my Archer is better than your :P
Camden 05-18-07, 12:43 PM	With Arrow mind you threaten with your bow That means that you can provide flank, shoot away (no AoOs) AND if someone moves through your threatened area then they provoke attacks of opportunity against you (which you can use to shoot them with) Its an incredible spell. 2 levels of OotB will save you taking AoOs, only you lose out on skill points, but that was my other suggestion. (Ranger2, Barbarian1 Fighter6 PT4 OotB2 - not necessarily in that order) Skills were for spot. As I said if you don't care about skills, I would still go OotB over EWM. AS you have to sink a feat and a level, may as well just take two levels of it and drop the two fighter levels that were giving you the extra feat. IF you still don't want the ranger then Fighter 8 for greater weapon spec works too I guess. BUT I would try to work Barbarian and extra rage into the build somehow. Greater Weapon Focus = Fighter 8 Greater Weapon Spec = Fighter 12 Personally I have the Fighter12/OotB2 build. I have more than reasonable INT (14) so when I hit the OoTB levels I sunk all my skill points into Spot, for both levels , then spent the 2 points /level to keep it up with the progression. Arrowmind is all well and good, but tbh I think your better served with an Elvencraft Bow. It allows you to threaten... There are a few mods out there that give you access, as well as a few MetaOrgs, coupled with the fact that you shouldn't be near the front as an Archer. The idea of a level of Barbie into mix is, imho, crazy. You buy a bow with a greater Str on it for when you rage. You upgrade that bow (as your primary weapon) then take the penalties for using it when your not raging... With the normal full attack at 12 (kitted out) it's 5 attacks/round Rapid and haste, so you get an extra 2 points of damage/arrow, or 10pts/round for taking a -2 on using your bow when not using. Why not take the levels of fighter and pickup RWM, +2Hit +2Dam, and no penalties... Looking at the Feats available for an Archer, I'm not sure it is possible to wangle in Extra Rage. I know I'm having difficulty trying to get anything extra in on its own, and having to train out just to get RWM... Currently my feats are CL1 F1 PBlank, PShot, RShot CL2 F2 QDraw CL3 F3 WF LongBow CL4 F4 WS LongBow CL5 F5 --- CL6 F6 Manyshot, ImpRapid CL7 Ootb2 --- CL8 OotB2 --- CL9 F7 ImpCrit CL10 F8 GWF LongBow CL11 F9 CL12 F10 IPS, Ranged Disarm CL13 F11 CL14 F12 GWS LongBow (trainned out ImpCrit for RWM) CL15 ??? ?ImpCrit? Looking at what I have there, I can;t see where the Barbie would move into the build, or why I would need the extra Movement. I'm an Archer, I do the 5' shuffle...
boolean 05-20-07, 05:43 AM	Can you make Arrow Mind Persistant? Yes, but not in LG. (Persistent spell = closed. It's also hard for a ranger to get 7th level spells.) Having it all day is much better than its regular duration. Well, I assume it is, I don't see that spell having a duration better than a minute per level, and I doubt it is that long. Actually, the duration is one minute per level, and it can be cast as an immediate action, so it's easy to have it whenever you need it.