Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 06-21-07, 02:08 AM	I've noticed I haven't been adding much to combats recently. In fact I'd be hard pressed to remember a mod in the last 2 levels that I did anything productive other than keep something stupid occupied while the rest of the group handled something else. Both inside and outside combat, this guy's a blast for me to play, but it's more cinematics than actual combat effectiveness. (He has levels in Thief-Acrobat, so he's scaling walls, leaping over chasms, and tumbling under giant's legs). I guess before I go any further, I'll post his build up to this point, along with magic items. (Not counting consumables, cause like any good rogue, he's got plenty). Human Suel Level 7 Rogue 5/Ranger 1/ Thief-Acrobat 1 Stats STR: 10 DEX: 18 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 14 CHA: 10 Feats Dodge (Will be retrained out) Toughness (Will be retrained to SF: Disable) Weapon Finesse Combat Expertise Skill Ranks Appraise: 1 Balance: 8 Climb: 8 Craft: 4 Disable Device: 10 Handle Animal: 1 Hide: 6 Jump: 8 Knowledge (Core): 1 Knowledge (SV): 1 Knowledge (Dungeon): 1 Knowledge (Nature): 1 Knowledge (Religion): 1 Listen: 7 Move Silently: 6 Open Lock: 7 Search: 10 Spot: 8 Survival: 1 Swim: 2 Tumble: 10 Equipment +1 Raiper +1 Light Crossbow CI Shortsword Silver Shortsword Gloves of Dex +2 Vest of Resistance +2 +1 Mithral Chain Shirt +1 Darkwood Buckler Lens of Detection Ring of Feather Fall MW Thieves Tools Weapon Capsule Retainer Keep in mind, I made this character when I had no idea what I was doing (made him before my second gameday). There is nothing I can do about his stats, but I hope I can get his skills straighten out. (Not to mention get some ranks in UMD; put that INT and WIS to use) I had an idea I thought about trying. I would get a ranger level at 9, pick up TWF and ITWF, and then retrain into Improved Trip. Thief Acrobats have an ablity that allows them to stand up from prone as a free action with no AOO, so he could make up to 4 trip attempts per round, then just stand up at the end of his turn. The problem with this is that he is a Blader, and there are no swords that can be used to make a trip attempt. I'm open to any other ideas, but I do plan to take a level of Exemplar to boost my Disable Device skill.
_metz_ 06-21-07, 02:53 AM	Well TWF is a no brainer. Definitely take that Ranger level and pick it up. With Wisdom 14 some temple Raider might be an ok idea. I would swap Dodge for Deadly Defence. Staggering strike is really good as well.
GenghisBob 06-21-07, 03:29 AM	First of, what kind of battles have you felt ineffective in? then some initial comments * Disarm may be a better feat/trick for you to focus in rather than Trip, as it is a normal attack rather than a strength check whcih you will suck in at most times. Esepcially versus non mellee weapons and cutting away spell pouches and holy symbols -although trip is useful versus some oppoennts. * Use Nets, (touch AC) even with the -4 for non Proficiency, you entangle the bad guy, reducing his speed and his AC and Dex. and full round AOOP action to get out of it. * Get a Reach weapon so you can threaten / give flanks to the BDF. THen fight to aid another, to give the BDF a +4 bonus to put into his/her Power attack. - dont forget to Combat Expertise/Fulldefense rather than AID if things look dicey for you. * Bolas to do ranged trip. * Alchemicals, Tangle foots. Cant do anything much? toss something anoying!! * consider tactile trap smith to max out your search and disarm. * consider True beliver / Pios Templer 1 for paladin spells. * TWF is nice but not essential (i use it all the time though) it does let you leverage your Snat more. * Dont forget as a ranger you can tumble around healing with a happy stick in combat if you cant think of anything more useful to do, also good if the Cleric is more effective in comabt then you are, if you can stabilise or keep fighters going. I would build on your Listen, Spot skills as well now. Make yourself reall useful as "Mr Aware" help your team not be suprised - then no one will be real worried about you not being to effective in combat. GB
Potato Weasel 06-21-07, 08:28 AM	Well how 'effective' do you want to be? At this point, you can go down the TWF tree and make use of sneak attack to be a straight damage dealer but you'd be fairly far behind if your relying on ranger levels to do that. If you have access, you could pick up scarlet corsair, which is quite good with a sneak attack build as it allows you to feint as a free action (with a recharge time), but from your enjoyment of high mobility, I'd really suggest the mountebank if you can qualify (can't remember requirements offhand) as it gives you special abilities as well as some sneak attack (and its just cool) But really, what type of effectiveness do you want? In normal combats? straight up fighting? skirmishing? sneaky things?
LGMoses 06-21-07, 09:14 AM	well, if ur able to tie up one opponent then ur probably atleast pulling your weight. Then noone's going to complain about someone who can find traps :D Long as you're able to flank and be useful I'd say you're good.
UMiskatonic 06-21-07, 11:29 AM	This is a normal problem. Rogues are perfectly good in melee at 1st level, and have some of the best AC on the battlefield. As you gain levels, however, you steadily fall behind. Don't worry too much, someone who calls themselves a fighter better be good at fighting, it's ok if they can outfight you. Honestly, I'm not sure that TWF is your best move. You'll lose your shield bonus. And you'll be 5ft away from the bad guy. I'm not sure you have the CON for trading full attacks. I'd follow Dodge with Mobility and Spring Attack. Instead, I'd focus on that most important of 7th level rogue skills, Use Magic device. While it's no good at level one, you can rapidly have a 50% chance to activate ANY scroll, and it's not hard to push it higher still. I think it might be best if you focus on being a support fighter, using your AC and tumble skills to work the battlefield. When you activate expertise and fight defensively, your armor class is going to be good enough to act as a cork for a few rounds. That's a valuable job. If you can control the battlefield, you win. Ideas include: Tying up a dangerous but not super intelligent bad guy. Tumbling though a battle to rescue the captive or get the dingus Tumbling through a battle to disrupt an enemy formation. Threaten their casters, like in chess, and force them to move. Flank and aid for the heavy hitters, that's +4 more on the power attack. Act as defense for your casters, prevent them from getting charged, grappled, etc. Moving first, and soaking up AOs to position yourself in the middle of the battlefield.
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 12:42 PM	Don't worry man, I think I can help you. My first character for LG was also a Rogue. Not too well-built, either. He went for Rog4/Wiz1/Thief-Acrobat, and he was mostly ineffective. He converted and became a Rog4/Ftr2/Wiz1/HolyLiberator2, and he was too mutted-out to be effective. And then the 595 conversion happened. He converted into a Rog7/Ftr2/ChampionOfCorellon, and he's been awesome ever since. My own Rogue is a lot like yours. Lots of high-flying theatric excitement. You don't need to carry a reach weapon or use a net or max out UMD. You're a swashbuckling HERO, that's what you are! First of all, Thief-Acrobat kinda stinks. You've gimped your BAB to pick up stuff that you really don't need. But barring death, not much we can do about it. Secondly, you've got Ranger1 which won't do much for you by itself; just grab Ranger2 and TWF, then another BAB level at 9 to pick up ITWF. Your best bet is to head for Rogue7 to bump up your sneak dice and your BAB. ITWF will give you five attacks when Hasted, so next you'll need to bump up your attack bonuses. Which means bigger Dex gloves. An Animated Mithral Heavy Shield will solve your shield bonus problems, by the way. As for your Wisdom, maybe Temple Raider's the way to go. -Matt
amnuxoll 06-21-07, 02:10 PM	I concur with UMisk and others who've said you're doing fine. Certainly there are build tweaks to make but don't hold yourself up to the standard of a straight melee fighter. Embrace your rogue-ness. Find the aspects of your character you love and keep enhancing them. :AMN:
Mommy was an Orc 06-21-07, 02:25 PM	Temple Raider? What? :confused: That's a horrid PrC - the spells are beyond lousy, the abilities granted aren't that great, only 4 skill points per level, and sneak attack progression is delayed. If you really want all the benefits of Temple Raider, you really just need to take 3 levels of Cleric on a Rogue build. And then you get the Luck domain right off the bat. I wouldn't go Exemplar either - eventually, you're getting a +6 Gloves of Dexterity and your Dex ought to be 24 at 12th - Tactile Trapfinder gives you a bonus of +5 to both Search/Disable Device as a result. I'd do the following: 8: Ranger 2 for TWF(convert Dodge into Improved Initiative) 9: Swashbuckler 1 for Weapon Finesse(convert original Weapon Finesse into Quickdraw): ITWF 10: Rogue 6(convert Toughness into Tactile Trapfinder) 11: Rogue 7 12: Swashbuckler 2: Daring Outlaw 13: Rogue 8 14: Swashbuckler 3 15: Nightsong Enforcer 1: Staggering Strike Note what this does for your damage - you almost quadruple your damage over the next couple of levels. If you go first(which you often will with Improved Initiative), toss some 4 flasks of acid at level 9 at a nearby flat footed target. That'll do 16d6 of touch attack damage for 40 gp. By level 12, you're firing off 5(boots of speed likely) for 6d6 each for 30d6 of damage for 50 gp. That ought to really draw the monsters attention... Use Armor Spikes as your secondary weapon so you can still use a shield.
GreatSiron 06-21-07, 03:06 PM	I concur with UMisk and others who've said you're doing fine. Certainly there are build tweaks to make but don't hold yourself up to the standard of a straight melee fighter. Embrace your rogue-ness. Find the aspects of your character you love and keep enhancing them. :AMN: What I love about my character? I actually love the fact that he's a cork. In the last mod a played, one bad guy got a lucky shot on our wolflord with full power attack, rolled a 19 on the die (had improved crit), and presto, dead wolflord. Like -20. This same guy had been trying to hit my rogue for almost the entire combat, and never touched him. He wouldn't have with even that roll (he would had to stop power attacking). Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I've needed healing. :) But I like a lot of the suggestions I've heard, but I don't want to lose any more skill points than I have to (so I can't take Pious Templar), and I worship Kelenen (and I have his tattoo, which holds me to the same standards as his clerics, due to the errata of the blessing). So no Temple Raider or any weapon other than swords. I do have access to a heavy mithral shield and the animated special ablity. (Same AR, go figure.) But I don't want any Armor Check penalties. Does that have one?
Mattastrophic 06-21-07, 03:36 PM	Mithral Heavy Shields have zero armor check penalty. I like Mommy's build and how it slips Swashbuckler3 and Daring Outlaw in there. Just do some dual-wielding and use the animated shield, pick up some Boots of Speed, and you'll be golden. So you're covered all the way through your career. Sounds like a plan. -Matt
Timlagor 06-21-07, 04:46 PM	When the GRuins handbook comes out see if there are any Dungeonscape options that you are allowed to use.