Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 08-15-07, 08:20 AM	Ok, A friend wants an Unseen Seer for Greyhawk Ruins. (well wants a rogue that can beat up Undead etc, I told him this was the best option) This is what he thinks he wants to do Grey Elf: Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 13 (lvl 4 bump here) Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 10 1. Rogue1: ??? 2. Wiz1: 3. Rogue2: Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard 4. Rogue3: 5. Rogue4: 6. Unseen Seer1: Craft Wondrous Item 7. Unseen Seer2: 8. Unseen Seer3: 9. Unseen Seer4: 10-15 Arcane Trickster I think it could do with some work, what say the people?
Lupo 08-15-07, 09:28 AM	Ok, A friend wants an Unseen Seer for Greyhawk Ruins. (well wants a rogue that can beat up Undead etc, I told him this was the best option) This is what he thinks he wants to do Grey Elf: Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 13 (lvl 4 bump here) Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 10 1. Rogue1: ??? 2. Wiz1: 3. Rogue2: Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard 4. Rogue3: 5. Rogue4: 6. Unseen Seer1: Craft Wondrous Item 7. Unseen Seer2: 8-15 Arcane Trickster I think it could do with some work, what say the people? if your friend is eager to sneak things and does not care about his overall spellcaster progression, i would go sorcerer instead of wizard and human or halfling instead of grey elf. you get many more uses of your spells like "golem strike" and "grave strike" (from unseen seer's advanced learning) to combine with a simple zero, first or second level ray or orb and add your sneaky dice atop of it. ciao martin m.
Infinitive 08-15-07, 09:51 AM	I'm actually running a variant of this build myself at the moment, and I'm very, very happy with it. There are a few things you need to consider, however, before committing to something like this. The first and most obvious problem is BAB. Going Rogue/Wizard into UsS is going to net you a very low BAB progression, which is likely to make things difficult for you. I'm using off-levels of Swashbuckler to boost my to-hit, as well as a cheap way to gain Weapon Finesse, but you've got to figure your own answer out for this problem. Secondly is MAD (multiple attribute dependancy); requiring high charisma, Int, Dex and Str is a recipie for certain doom, which is what a rogue/sorceror build calls for. I would strongly recommend taking your arcane class as Wizard instead and choosing to be a specialist Diviner (of which all relevant Sneak Attack spells beling to). You lose one spell per day compared to sorceror, gain Scribe Scroll, and have a legit shot at getting Hunter's Eye through UsS's Advanced Learning class feature (if you can find access). Also, Weapon Finesse is all but required. As a rogue, you want high Dex anyway, and if you're going to be in melee making attack rolls, using a high to-hit stat is critical. As I mentioned above, your BAB is going to be subpar; think hard about how you're going to use it. Either 2Hing an Elven Thinblade or dual wielding is strongly recommended, to take advantage of those SA dice. Third, you need to look at unconventional ways to get the most out of what spells you have, since you'll be lagging behind most normal casters by a full 4 levels. As such, anything that allows for saving throws or spell resistance is right out; you are either a party buffer or a sneak attacking gish, and you need to decide which at a very low level. If you want to just slam out the SA damage, take a long look at going human, picking up Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, and then using Insightful Feint. Sure, it only reduces your target's AC for one attack and only enables SA damage for that attack, but if you're careful, the difference will be immense. The massive bonus it gives to your bluff check helps too, as does the fact that it frees up your move action from feinting as normal. For your consideration, here's my build progression (though I certainly didn't take the classes in the order in which they are presented): Rogue 4/ Wizard (Diviner) 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Unseen Seer 5/ Arcane Trickster3 Relevant feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, TWF, Weapon Finesse, Daring Outlaw, Imp. TWF Total SA at character retirement: 8d6
Hariman 08-15-07, 10:45 AM	I'm actually running a variant of this build myself at the moment, and I'm very, very happy with it. There are a few things you need to consider, however, before committing to something like this. The first and most obvious problem is BAB. Going Rogue/Wizard into UsS is going to net you a very low BAB progression, which is likely to make things difficult for you. I'm using off-levels of Swashbuckler to boost my to-hit, as well as a cheap way to gain Weapon Finesse, but you've got to figure your own answer out for this problem. Secondly is MAD (multiple attribute dependancy); requiring high charisma, Int, Dex and Str is a recipie for certain doom, which is what a rogue/sorceror build calls for. I would strongly recommend taking your arcane class as Wizard instead and choosing to be a specialist Diviner (of which all relevant Sneak Attack spells beling to). You lose one spell per day compared to sorceror, gain Scribe Scroll, and have a legit shot at getting Hunter's Eye through UsS's Advanced Learning class feature (if you can find access). Also, Weapon Finesse is all but required. As a rogue, you want high Dex anyway, and if you're going to be in melee making attack rolls, using a high to-hit stat is critical. As I mentioned above, your BAB is going to be subpar; think hard about how you're going to use it. Either 2Hing an Elven Thinblade or dual wielding is strongly recommended, to take advantage of those SA dice. Third, you need to look at unconventional ways to get the most out of what spells you have, since you'll be lagging behind most normal casters by a full 4 levels. As such, anything that allows for saving throws or spell resistance is right out; you are either a party buffer or a sneak attacking gish, and you need to decide which at a very low level. If you want to just slam out the SA damage, take a long look at going human, picking up Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, and then using Insightful Feint. Sure, it only reduces your target's AC for one attack and only enables SA damage for that attack, but if you're careful, the difference will be immense. The massive bonus it gives to your bluff check helps too, as does the fact that it frees up your move action from feinting as normal. For your consideration, here's my build progression (though I certainly didn't take the classes in the order in which they are presented): Rogue 4/ Wizard (Diviner) 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Unseen Seer 5/ Arcane Trickster3 Relevant feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, TWF, Weapon Finesse, Daring Outlaw, Imp. TWF Total SA at character retirement: 8d6 Low BAB is one thing, but losing caster levels creates it's own weaknesses. Your build will be better at melee, but will require an entirely different strategy. Guaranteed, 8d6 SA is good, but you'll be reliant on the character's melee abilities far more than spellcasting. That being said, IF your friend wants to use weapons, I would recommend Bard or Beguiler. Bards gain Swift Invisibility and a number of other useful spells. (Grease, Glitterdust, and many others.) AND they have slightly better Hit Points and Skill Points too. Beguilers have a lot of Skill Synergy, they have a great, if non-damaging spell list and better HP. Beguiler, I would say, is statistically better because of the higher level spells. But a Bard will have Inspirational Boost/Bardsong. +2/+2 is nothing to sneeze at. Later, with clever leveling, you can give a bardic unseen seer Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. It IS possible, using some heavy retraining and having a human character with 12 int, to get a rogue sorcerer into Unseen Seer at 6th level. You do end up burning a lot of skill points retraining/cross classing skills, but it's doable. For race, I'd recommend either human, dwarf, or gnome. Human works with any class combination. Dwarf only works with INT dependent classes (Wizard with 16 con, WOOT!) And Gnome works with any class combination. Specialist Wizard, either Diviner, Conjurer or necromancer, is very good. The whole INT Synergy and expandable spell list is great. I recommend: Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer10: It's basic, but one application of Practiced Spellcaster (Level 3) and Craft Wondrous Item (Level 6) will help with items. And Empower Spell/Metamagic School Focus will add to the damage total. Rogue1/Beguiler4/Unseen Seer10: The same principles apply, Practiced Spellcaster is a must. Although Heighten Spell will be better than empower. As will chain spell. You will have to rely on weapons to deliver sneak attacks. Rogue1/Sorcerer4/Unseen Seer10: Again Practised Spellcaster. You'll gain a lot of spells per day, but you'll have to carefully choose spells to use. A Kobold with Empower Spell/Split Ray and Practical Metamagic for both will do wonders. But he'll be much harder to build.
Infinitive 08-15-07, 11:27 AM	Yeah, as Hari noted, what you should focus on depends very highly on what you want to do. Are you interested in being a ray caster with Sneak Attack, or are you looking for a melee build that uses spells to augment yourself? This information would be very helpful to us, so we can help you figure out a build that does what you want it to.
_metz_ 08-15-07, 11:34 AM	Therein lies the problem. The player up till now has only played melee characters, and now wants to do a Rogue for Greyhawk ruins. I suggested an Unseen Seer as I know this guy will get frustrated if he is useless against undead etc. As such he really has no idea, and is looking to me for advice. I personally hate having caster levels in my rogues, but recognize how much more effective they are now because of it. I guess I was just after what people thought were the best uses of the class, so I could give the guy some options. I personally am leaning towards wizard, as its better at dealing with MAD, as well the benefits of being more versatile. (which imo is more roguey). I would like to point out the guy WANTS to be a rogue, so will need to be a trapfinder etc as well. This is why I sought the boards opinion ;)
Tonus 08-15-07, 11:48 AM	You need a couple more levels in an arcane spellcasting class to qualify for Arcane Trickster. One of the requirements is the ability to cast at least one third level spell. (Practiced Spellcaster helps with caster level only, not spellcasting progression.) (Edit: The original post had 1 Wizard and 2 Unseen Seer levels -- now corrected.)
Infinitive 08-15-07, 12:17 PM	Metz- Well, that's actually a very easy problem to solve. Have him go straight rogue and tell him to pick up Penetrating Strike at 3rd level. It's Open access for a GHR character, and allows you to do 50% SA damage to any normally un-sneakable creature. You don't actually need caster levels to do what you're talking about. Maybe a Swash 3/Rogue 3/ Invisible Blade X build? It'd keep him combat effective and keep his SA up. Alternately, have a look at Rogue 3/Fighter 1/ Swash 1/ Trapsmith 1/ Spellsword 1/ Unseen Seer 3/ Nightsong Enforcer 5. That'll give you good SA progressions, outstanding spellcasting (Trapsmith's list is amazing given its prereqs), and at least 5d6 SA.
LeeShort 08-15-07, 12:23 PM	Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer10: It's basic, but one application of Practiced Spellcaster (Level 3) and Craft Wondrous Item (Level 6) will help with items. And Empower Spell/Metamagic School Focus will add to the damage total. Rogue1/Beguiler4/Unseen Seer10: The same principles apply, Practiced Spellcaster is a must. Although Heighten Spell will be better than empower. As will chain spell. You will have to rely on weapons to deliver sneak attacks. Rogue1/Sorcerer4/Unseen Seer10: Again Practised Spellcaster. You'll gain a lot of spells per day, but you'll have to carefully choose spells to use. A Kobold with Empower Spell/Split Ray and Practical Metamagic for both will do wonders. But he'll be much harder to build. With the Dispel Confusion on retraining (retraining at 4th level uses 3rd level skill caps), that last build may be impossible with less than 16 int. Which makes it pretty pointless. Even the other 2 builds require some hard-core cross-classing, to the extent that crucial skills like Concentration and Spellcraft will suffer badly. I recommend Rogue1/Wizard5/UnseenSeer9. I've started a Scout1/Wiz5/UnseenSeer9, so I've done all the math on the skill points. Here's my build, FWIW: Kobold S 6 D 16 C 10 I 18+++ W 8 C 8 Scout Empower Spell, Rite of Passage: Shield Wiz Wiz Practical Metamagic: Empower Wiz 20% Penalty Wiz [retrain skills] Wiz Sculpt, Practical Metamagic: Sculpt [retrain skills] USS USS USS CWI (USS all the way out) Tactics: This build is for an all-stealth party. The plan is to get the drop on as many encounters as possible. At first level, he scrapes by with a shortbow. At second level, he starts slinging orbs with skirmish (even 0-levels will do 1d3 + 1d6). The build really comes into its own at 6th, where Sculpted Grease fits in a first-level slot, and Empowered Scorching Ray fits in a third-level slot.
myshkingfh 08-15-07, 12:25 PM	You need a couple more levels in an arcane spellcasting class to qualify for Arcane Trickster. One of the requirements is the ability to cast at least one third level spell. (Practiced Spellcaster helps with caster level only, not spellcasting progression.) No, that works, because wizard 1, USS4 casts 3rd level spells. I have a similar character, but because he was started before there was a Complete Mage, he's not exactly optimized. If your friend wants to play a rogue who can hurt udead, why force extra caster levels on him? It's not the character he wants to play. I have fighter 1, which gives me martial weapons, armor proficiency and weapon finesse. He's got a high attack bonus because of his big dex. He also gets a lot of skill points because of his big int. The fighter level is also going to let him take Spellsword at next level and he'll be able to cast in a mithril shirt with no failure percentage. I don't pretend that this is optimized, but for your friend, I'd advise against forcing him into a heavy arcane role because that's the "best" and let him be the sneak attacking melee guy he wants to be.
Hariman 08-15-07, 01:47 PM	With the Dispel Confusion on retraining (retraining at 4th level uses 3rd level skill caps), that last build may be impossible with less than 16 int. Which makes it pretty pointless. Even the other 2 builds require some hard-core cross-classing, to the extent that crucial skills like Concentration and Spellcraft will suffer badly. I recommend Rogue1/Wizard5/UnseenSeer9. I've started a Scout1/Wiz5/UnseenSeer9, so I've done all the math on the skill points. Here's my build, FWIW: Kobold S 6 D 16 C 10 I 18+++ W 8 C 8 Scout Empower Spell, Rite of Passage: Shield Wiz Wiz Practical Metamagic: Empower Wiz 20% Penalty Wiz [retrain skills] Wiz Sculpt, Practical Metamagic: Sculpt [retrain skills] USS USS USS CWI (USS all the way out) Tactics: This build is for an all-stealth party. The plan is to get the drop on as many encounters as possible. At first level, he scrapes by with a shortbow. At second level, he starts slinging orbs with skirmish (even 0-levels will do 1d3 + 1d6). The build really comes into its own at 6th, where Sculpted Grease fits in a first-level slot, and Empowered Scorching Ray fits in a third-level slot. You can retrain between levels 4 and 5 as well. You just can't use retraining between levels 5 and 6 to qualify for Unseen Seer at 6th level. Heck, you can get into USS with a sorcerer by level 6. But I'm guessing that you mean the maximum of 7 ranks for retraining from level 4 to 5. Right? That SHOULD leave a character with too few skill points to get 8, 8, 8, 4, and 4 ranks in the necessary skills, right? That is, unless you use half ranks, which I can't find excluded in the LGCS. That would leave a character with either 2 skills with a half rank and 1 skill with a full cross class rank required. Or three skills with half ranks and an extra skill point. Of course, a wizard with 16 INT is much better at this sort of cross classing than a human sorcerer with 12 INT or any other race with 14 INT. But sorcerer nets you Practical Metamagic. Oh, yeah. Practical Metamagic requires both 6 HD and Spontaneous casting. So no wizard cheese for this build. On the plus side, a Specialist Wizard can take Metamagic School Focus.
LeeShort 08-15-07, 03:15 PM	But I'm guessing that you mean the maximum of 7 ranks for retraining from level 4 to 5. Right? That SHOULD leave a character with too few skill points to get 8, 8, 8, 4, and 4 ranks in the necessary skills, right? Yep. That is, unless you use half ranks, which I can't find excluded in the LGCS. That would leave a character with either 2 skills with a half rank and 1 skill with a full cross class rank required. Or three skills with half ranks and an extra skill point. Of course, a wizard with 16 INT is much better at this sort of cross classing than a human sorcerer with 12 INT or any other race with 14 INT. None of this makes any sense to me. Can you try explaining it again? But sorcerer nets you Practical Metamagic. Oh, yeah. Practical Metamagic requires both 6 HD and Spontaneous casting. Don't see how I managed to miss this; thanks for pointing it out.
retro 08-15-07, 08:49 PM	One possible option is to play a Skullclan Hunter. It's not a hard PrC to get access to, as long as your friend is willing to play a Perrenland character for GR.
_metz_ 08-15-07, 10:40 PM	One possible option is to play a Skullclan Hunter. It's not a hard PrC to get access to, as long as your friend is willing to play a Perrenland character for GR. This is a Greyhawk Ruins character. As the rest of our Characters are Perrenlanders, we don't really want another one ;) I think I will just make him a straight rogue (I know how to do one of those fortunately :P) Penetrating Strike etc may be the way to go. I don't think one should play their first caster and their first rogue at the same time if the party is going to be relying on you, someone may get killed, or alternatively the player may resent the more experienced players telling him what to do. (Something he gets a lot, which I want to avoid)
Hariman 08-15-07, 10:51 PM	None of this makes any sense to me. Can you try explaining it again? Unfortunately, I looked at the math, and what I thought worked, does not. You really do need a 16 INT to cover all of the Skill Points needed to get into Unseen Seer by level 6. Or 14 int and human. (Possibly with a Draconic Heritage feat, for sorcerer.) Although, I'm pretty sure that Beguiler and Bard are the exceptions here. They get better skill points per level. So sorcerers have to drop points in an extra stat and either have a boost to INT or another skill to make up for the MAD generated by diving into USS by level 6, or they have to wait a level. And, arguably, waiting a level is much better because of the skill points that can be saved by cross classing a few less skill points and dropping them into, say Concentration. BUT a human sorcerer with: 10 str: 14 dex: 14 con: 14 int: 8 wis: 15 cha: CAN do it, IF he takes a Draconic Heritage feat that provides either Hide, Search or Spot as a class skill for sorcerer. (Or any other feat that treats one or two of those skills as a class skill for all classes. I can't think of any off hand.) Although, there are people out there who would question not simply leaving Cha at 8 and buying 16 int and 16 con. However, extra skill points for a sorcerer are a GOOD thing. And having a Sorcerer/Unseen Seer as soon as possible would just be cool. Or course, the original build suggested used Unseen Seer as a lead in to Spellwarp Sniper. Then Fatespinner or Arcane Trickster. This is a Greyhawk Ruins character. As the rest of our Characters are Perrenlanders, we don't really want another one ;) I think I will just make him a straight rogue (I know how to do one of those fortunately :P) Penetrating Strike etc may be the way to go. I don't think one should play their first caster and their first rogue at the same time if the party is going to be relying on you, someone may get killed, or alternatively the player may resent the more experienced players telling him what to do. (Something he gets a lot, which I want to avoid) He's got a good point here. Playing a rogue/caster is HARD. You're an odd mix of abilities, fragile, and even with an optimized build, your friends character will still have major weaknesses. Low HP, low fort save, low will save. At the very least, try to convince him that halfling is GOOD. Halfling works very well for an unseen seer type. +2 to ranged attacks, and either +1 or +4 or 5 to Melee attacks, depending on the character's strength score. A small boost to AC, +1 to all saves, +2 to some useful skills. He'll also need to know that he only needs one or two attack spells. (Orb of Sound is a goody. No SR and rarely resisted.) and the rest of the spells should be spell like Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Prot Evil, Resist Energy, and other "help the party" spells. I guarantee you, this character will do more via buffing until he can use fourth and fifth level buffing spells to protect himself. (Maybe third level spells, with proper planning.)
Mommy was an Orc 08-19-07, 04:47 PM	Ok, A friend wants an Unseen Seer for Greyhawk Ruins. (well wants a rogue that can beat up Undead etc, I told him this was the best option) The big issue with the build is two-fold: You don't have a free feat for Weapon Finesse until 12th - Arcane Strike is a killer feat at 9th, especially if you've managed to craft a bunch of pearls. You'll never get to Arcane Trickster :) I'd go human and throw in a level of Fighter for Weapon Finesse in the first five levels and take a level of Spellsword at 8th(allowing you to wear a mithril chain shirt without penalty)
jstorrie 08-19-07, 07:49 PM	A two-handed Power Attacking, Weapon Finessing (Elven Courtblade or Spiked Chain) Rogue 1 / Swash 2 / Rogue 2-3 / Fighter 1-4 / Swash 3 / Rogue 4 / Swash 4-7 will do just fine against undead–even when your Sneak Attack and Insightful Strike crap out, you've still got Power Attack, Weapon Spec, Weapon Mastery and nearly-full BAB with a two-hander.
_metz_ 08-19-07, 08:24 PM	It sort of doesn't really matter now does it? Sigh. Who is up for new character optimisation boards in FR? every stupid WoTC thing will be there, including psionics... (which I can't stand at all)
honeyko 08-19-07, 09:01 PM	Unfortunately, I looked at the math, and what I thought worked, does not. You really do need a 16 INT to cover all of the Skill Points needed to get into Unseen Seer by level 6.Unseen Seer is all about skills, with sneak-attack advancement just along for the ride; it's much, much better built off wizard than sorc due to concentration of emphasis upon INT. Scribe Scroll enables you to totally rock (for a measly amount of cash) during the baby levels while sorcs are sucking wind with their tiny selection of spells. He's got a good point here. Playing a rogue/caster is HARD. You're an odd mix of abilities, fragile, and even with an optimized build, your friends character will still have major weaknesses.... My grey-elf rogu1/wiza5(6)/Unseen with very high INT and high DEX is incredibly effective by fulfilling two party-roles: battlefield-control magic and traps/stealth. Waiting until 6th (and CWI) to spend an accumulating pile of money is only a mild annoyance. IMO, Unseen Seer is about the cheesiest PrC in the game; I'm surprised it's open when the similar cleric/rogue PrC, Shadowbane Stalker, is NONC and seldom handed out. And why is it uber-cheesy despite lousy BAB and fort-saves, and lame sneak dice compared to straight rogue? Because a rogu1/(all caster) Unseen Seer can Craft eventually every item he encounters due to having Use Magic Device and gobs of skill-points to indulge in it. At the very least, try to convince him that halfling is GOOD. Halfling works very well for an unseen seer type. +2 to ranged attacks, and either +1 or +4 or 5 to Melee attacks, depending on the character's strength score. A small boost to AC, +1 to all saves, +2 to some useful skills. Halflings make great (arguably the best) straight rogues, orb-throwers and great dual wand wielders, but Unseen Seer is all about grey-elf.
Mommy was an Orc 08-19-07, 09:23 PM	Halflings make great (arguably the best) straight rogues, orb-throwers and great dual wand wielders, but Unseen Seer is all about grey-elf. The 'problem' with Unseen Seer is that there's the big temptation to go for the 5 level entry - being Grey Elf either means an XP penalty, a loss of a sneak attack dice, or not being able to take a 2nd combat feat until 9th. Yes, at 9th level or so, Grey Elf is a top-tier choice for a Rogue 1/Wizard 4, but...
Hariman 08-19-07, 11:34 PM	Unseen Seer is all about skills, with sneak-attack advancement just along for the ride; it's much, much better built off wizard than sorc due to concentration of emphasis upon INT. Scribe Scroll enables you to totally rock (for a measly amount of cash) during the baby levels while sorcs are sucking wind with their tiny selection of spells. Until you need the same spell as many times in one mod as possible, and you only have three scrolls and one slot. My sorcerer cast "the right spell" four times in one mod recently. A wizard would have either had to burn scrolls (Which cost money and TUs, regardless of caster level.) OR he would have had to somehow know in advance that that specific spell would be needed as much as it was. My grey-elf rogu1/wiza5(6)/Unseen with very high INT and high DEX is incredibly effective by fulfilling two party-roles: battlefield-control magic and traps/stealth. Waiting until 6th (and CWI) to spend an accumulating pile of money is only a mild annoyance. <Insert sarcastic remark here.> IMO, Unseen Seer is about the cheesiest PrC in the game; I'm surprised it's open when the similar cleric/rogue PrC, Shadowbane Stalker, is NONC and seldom handed out. And why is it uber-cheesy despite lousy BAB and fort-saves, and lame sneak dice compared to straight rogue? Because a rogu1/(all caster) Unseen Seer can Craft eventually every item he encounters due to having Use Magic Device and gobs of skill-points to indulge in it. Yeah, I know. I'm considering taking Near Horizon instead of Grave Strike just so I can craft Horizon Goggles. Shadowbane Stalker has an RP prereq that is a pain. Halflings make great (arguably the best) straight rogues, orb-throwers and great dual wand wielders, but Unseen Seer is all about grey-elf. And yet some of us don't like elves. Or we like having Point Blank and Precise at level 1. Or halfling does it better. Or, like my character, he's been through human elf AND halfling, and wishes he could be a halfling again.