Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 06-05-07, 06:30 PM	Has anybody done this in an LG game? Have you encountered any problems or table variations? I presume the spell ends at the end of an adventure and the wooden object reverts to its previous form. I'm thinking that I'll buy a large chunk of wood (a heavy wooden shield, 10 lb., or an extreme wooden shield, 15 lb.) and use a Wood Shape spell at the beginning of each mod to turn it into a wooden weapon. Then I can cast the Spikes spell on the weapon as combat begins. I know that steel weapons don't normally take damage in combat (unless somebody gets Sunder-happy). Are there any rules stating or implying that a wooden weapon could be damaged when used in combat? Are there any attack or damage penalties with wooden weapons like the penalties for bone, stone, bronze or silvered weapons? I don't see a penalty for darkwood weapons, and darkwood is "as hard as normal wood." (Bone, stone and bronze weapons are described in the DMG on page 144. Darkwood weapons are on DMG page 283. Silvered weapons are on DMG page 284.) I see from the Craft skill description that one sometimes needs to make a Craft check when using a spell to create items, but Wood Shape isn't listed there. In fact, the Ironwood spell description implies that a Wood Shape spell can be used in place of a Craft check. So it doesn't look like I'll need to make a Craft check to Wood Shape my shield into a weapon of my choice. (I notice that the SRD version of the Wood Shape spell does not include two sentences that are in the PH version, so if you're gonna read up on this seldom-used spell, check the PH.) (BTW, the Stone Shape spell also allows you to create a stone weapon, but there's nothing equivalent to the Spikes spell for stone weapons.)
solbergb 06-05-07, 06:32 PM	craft carpentry, weaponsmithing, maybe bowmaking (default to int stat) Same DC's as doing it with minor creation or fabricate, at least at my table. Same for stone shape. Most "wood" weapons aren't entirely wood, major exceptions being club and quarterstaff, which are already free. If you make a wooden sword, it will certainly be inferior to a steel one at my table, unless you have some funky steel-hard wood to work with. If the rules don't cover it explicitly, as they do for bone and stone, use a -1 to hit/damge for every 2 hardness below 10.
kjenks 06-05-07, 06:40 PM	craft carpentry, weaponsmithing, maybe bowmaking (default to int stat) Same DC's as doing it with minor creation or fabricate, at least at my table. Same for stone shape. Most "wood" weapons aren't entirely wood, major exceptions being club and quarterstaff, which are already free. If you make a wooden sword, it will certainly be inferior to a steel one at my table, unless you have some funky steel-hard wood to work with. Why do you think there should be a skill check involved? What penalty would you think is appropriate? What about the wooden spear mentioned in the Ironwood section of the DMG?
solbergb 06-05-07, 08:19 PM	because to create anything in D&D takes a craft skill check. Even a club, if you don't want it to be an improvised weapon. Look at minor creation or fabricate for guidelines on spell-assisted crafting. There is no penalties - just use the DC's under the "craft" skill for guideline (most between 10 and 15, 20 for masterwork). You can probably take 10, you can't take 20 without 20x the raw materials. The main benefit the "crafting spells" give you is freedom from tools and much, much faster crafting than the base rules. At my table, a spear would be pretty simple, probably DC10, but if you didn't put a metal spearhead on it somehow, it's probably -2 to hit and damage (hardness 5 versus hardness 10) unless it's made out of some kind of wood harder than normal wood (ironwood perhaps?)
kjenks 06-05-07, 09:15 PM	I did check out Fabricate and Minor Creation. Fabricate: "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." Minor Creation: "You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item." And the Craft skill says: === In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. However, you must make an appropriate Craft check when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. A successful Craft check related to woodworking in conjunction with the casting of the ironwood spell enables you to make wooden items that have the strength of steel. When casting the spell minor creation, you must succeed on an appropriate Craft check to make a complex item. === I don't see a high degree of craftsmanship or a complex item in making a spear or a lance. Do you? Did you check out the Ironwood spell description? SRD === Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids. === That makes it look like you can either use a Craft check or you can cast a Wood Shape spell to make a wooden weapon. As to hardness... A +2 enhancement bonus from Spikes gives +4 to hardness, making a wooden weapon hardness 9, compared with... 10 for steel 8 for stone 8 alchemical silver (on steel) 5 for darkwood So I can't say that a wooden spear with Spikes on it is as hard as steel, but it's close (9 vs. 10). I appreciate your informed opinion. It's much better to hash these things out here rather than trying to look up rules at the table.
dkay807 06-05-07, 09:44 PM	Ken, I did this for an entire year with my Dwarven Defender when I adventured with a Druid on a regular basis. None of my judges had any problems with it, though we ALWAYS used Wood Shape, followed by Ironwood, and then Spikes. The Wood Shape lasted the whole mod, as did the Ironwood. He cast extended Spikes on my weapon each day and I proceeded to kick some serious ass. As a judge, I would rule that a weapon created with a Wood Shape spell just isn't sturdy enough to be used as a weapon. An axe or sword, even if perfectly formed, isn't strong enough to be used efficiently. I'd rule that it functioned like a club. If you used Ironwood as a followup, I'd happliy let it work. Just my two cents based on my experiences doing this for a long time. This ended when my Druid buddy quit and my Dwarven Defender's weapon became so good with various enhancements, it was no longer worth it (+1 Holy, Sacred, Evil Outsider Bane, Giant Bane, Ghost Touch, Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe).
Suvarov454 06-06-07, 08:17 AM	This ended when my Druid buddy quit and my Dwarven Defender's weapon became so good with various enhancements, it was no longer worth it (+1 Holy, Sacred, Evil Outsider Bane, Giant Bane, Ghost Touch, Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe). Pardon my OT question, but was that waraxe +5d6 vs evil outsiders (i.e. did Holy, Sacred and Evil Outsider Band all stack)?
dkay807 06-06-07, 08:42 AM	Pardon my OT question, but was that waraxe +5d6 vs evil outsiders (i.e. did Holy, Sacred and Evil Outsider Band all stack)? Actually, it was +2 to hit and +6d6+2 damage vs. evil outsiders. It worked better vs. those Fiendish and half-Fiend Giants I fought in Geoff at the Battle for Gorna.
Cardinal Teplin 06-06-07, 09:21 AM	I've been doing it for over two years. My character didn't have access to a gargantuan club, so I made my own at the start of each mod. I never had anyone complain. The only time I had to make a craft check was when a DM reckoned I might be able to woodshape a masterwork club rather than a normal one, and made me roll a craft (carpentry) check to find out. I'd recommend making a large club, since you are manufacturing your own. Weided in two hands (with a -2 penalty for wrong size) this does d8 damage. Cast enlarge and sheillegh (spell, scroll, potion, oil, etc.) and you are up to 4d6 damage. Not bad for a 'free' backup weapon.
kjenks 06-06-07, 09:53 AM	We have Open access to large weapons now, so that's not an issue. I don't think we can use Wood Shape to make masterwork weapons. There are rules for that in the Ironwood spell description, but no rules in the two different Wood Shape spell descriptions (SRD or PH). I was kind of hoping that there were explicit rules somewhere for attack and damage penalties for wooden weapons, but I haven't been able to find them.
solbergb 06-06-07, 10:40 AM	guys...you're overreacting. A club is DC10 at most. A club might even be DC8 or lower, with quarterstaff being DC10. You can take 10. A druid who doesn't have a negative intelligence stat can do this automatically without having to roll. A druid with a negative intelligence stat would at worst have to cast fox cunning at the start of the module to make his weapon at my table. If you want to make a masterwork club, or something like an ironwood falchion, then you'll have to actually roll dice or spend a few skill ranks (or get inspire competence from the bard, or heroism or something from other party members) There aren't rules for atk/dmg penalties for weapons designed to be steel made of wood, but the stone weapon thing is a decent precedent. Stone isn't as hard as metal, so -1 to hit and damage. Wood is softer than stone, so -2 to hit and damage. This matches the scaling of enhancement bonuses - a +2 club has hardness 9, which is pretty close to steel.
dkay807 06-06-07, 05:15 PM	guys...you're overreacting. A club is DC10 at most. A club might even be DC8 or lower, with quarterstaff being DC10. You can take 10. A druid who doesn't have a negative intelligence stat can do this automatically without having to roll. A druid with a negative intelligence stat would at worst have to cast fox cunning at the start of the module to make his weapon at my table. If you want to make a masterwork club, or something like an ironwood falchion, then you'll have to actually roll dice or spend a few skill ranks (or get inspire competence from the bard, or heroism or something from other party members) There aren't rules for atk/dmg penalties for weapons designed to be steel made of wood, but the stone weapon thing is a decent precedent. Stone isn't as hard as metal, so -1 to hit and damage. Wood is softer than stone, so -2 to hit and damage. This matches the scaling of enhancement bonuses - a +2 club has hardness 9, which is pretty close to steel. That's a fair judgment. I would still require Ironwood for anything other than a weapon typically made out of wood anyway, but that's just me. I expect you'll get a lot of ETV on this unless you're using Ironwood. ~Dave
katrick 06-06-07, 07:22 PM	Druid's don't get Fox's Cunning. katrick
solbergb 06-07-07, 11:27 AM	Ah right. They get cat grace (unlike clerics) but fox cunning is wiz/sor or bard. Ok, guidance then. That covers all the 8 intelligence druids. The 6 intelligence half-orc druids can spend a skill rank on crafting, or just cast the spell a couple times with guidance till they get an "11".
kjenks 06-07-07, 12:01 PM	I still don't think a Craft skill check is required with the Wood Shape spell, but the Craft skill lists DCs for weapons: Armor or shield Armorsmithing 10 + AC bonus Longbow or shortbow Bowmaking 12 Composite longbow or composite shortbow Bowmaking 15 Composite longbow or composite shortbow with high strength rating Bowmaking 15 + (2 × rating) Crossbow Weaponsmithing 15 Simple melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 12 Martial melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 15 Exotic melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmithing 18 It also gives some details about tools: === All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 circumstance penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. === So a druid with Int 10 could "take 10" on an untrained Craft (Weaponsmithing) check and hit DC 12 with "masterwork artisan’s tools." Those tools cost 50 gp and are Open access in LG. That would allow Wood Shape to craft a club with no trouble. I'm most interested in a wooden lance, so at tables where the DM arbitrarily requires a Craft check to use Wood Shape, I'll probably need a DC 15 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check for a "Martial melee" weapon. Take 10 won't get me there unless I invest some ranks in Craft. Hmm. Take 10, untrained, using masterwork artisan’s tools, Int 10, Fox's Cunning or borrow a +4 headband from a friendly arcanist, cast a Guidance, gets me to... 10+2+2+1 = DC 15. That will work.
solbergb 06-07-07, 04:58 PM	What part of the below description would allow you to use a tool? Duration is instantaneous. You touch it, it becomes the shape you imagine. There is no tool use. Indeed given the "only crude things can be made" I would strictly enforce the weaponsmithing difficulty ratings. A lance would be about DC15, but it is an inferior wood lance unless your wood is as hard as steel. I still rate a club at DC10, since it is manifestly easier to make than a normal simple weapon, such as a morning star. If you are really going to make a lance as a common tactic, just invest a few ranks in the darn skill. You will get less resistance from your GMs Wood Shape Transmutation Level: Drd 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One touched piece of wood no larger than 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates (object) Spell Resistance: Yes (object) Wood shape enables you to form one existing piece of wood into any shape that suits your purpose. While it is possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth, fine detail isn't possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape that includes moving parts simply doesn't work.
jstorrie 06-07-07, 08:58 PM	This ended when my Druid buddy quit and my Dwarven Defender's weapon became so good with various enhancements, it was no longer worth it (+1 Holy, Sacred, Evil Outsider Bane, Giant Bane, Ghost Touch, Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe). How on Oerth did you afford a +7 weapon? Isn't that more than two thirds of a 15th-level character's wealth? And how has some vengeful DM not sundered/stolen/rust-monstered the thing?
kjenks 06-07-07, 09:33 PM	What part of the below description would allow you to use a tool? Well, nothing. I don't think a Craft check is required at all, with or without tools. Actually, you're the one who said I needed to make a Craft check. The Wood Shape spell description doesn't require it. The Craft skill doesn't require it. The Ironwood spell description strongly implies that the Wood Shape spell can substitute for it. I'm just trying to figure out how to make a DC 15 Craft (Woodworking) check for those GMs who decide that I need to make the check. So, do you think I need to make your Craft (Woodworking) check without tools? Would I take the -2 penalty mentioned in the Craft skill description?
kjenks 06-07-07, 10:27 PM	Look at the other PH spells that let you create mundane things. Most of them require a Craft check; Wood Shape does not. SRD === Fabricate Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: See text Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell. ... Ironwood Transmutation Level: Drd 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 minute/lb. created Range: 0 ft. Effect: An ironwood object weighing up to 5 lb./level Duration: One day/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Ironwood is a magical substance created by druids from normal wood. While remaining natural wood in almost every way, ironwood is as strong, heavy, and resistant to fire as steel. Spells that affect metal or iron do not function on ironwood. Spells that affect wood do affect ironwood, although ironwood does not burn. Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids. Further, if you make only half as much ironwood as the spell would normally allow, any weapon, shield, or suit of armor so created is treated as a magic item with a +1 enhancement bonus. ... Minor Creation Conjuration (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail. === The spells that turn inanimate objects into creatures don't require Craft checks (Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Animate Dead, Beget Bogun, Changestaff, Clone, Liveoak, etc.). Goodberry doesn't require a Craft (Cooking) check. Stone Shape and Wall of Stone don't require Craft (Stonemasonry) checks. Create Food and Water is different because it's a Conjuration (Creation) spell, but it doesn't require a Craft check. Simulacrum does reqiure a Disguise check. So researching all of the PH spells, I can see that some spells require skill checks and some don't. Wood Shape does not.
dkay807 06-07-07, 11:15 PM	How on Oerth did you afford a +7 weapon? Isn't that more than two thirds of a 15th-level character's wealth? And how has some vengeful DM not sundered/stolen/rust-monstered the thing? Well, total thread hijack here, but the PC is 17th level... APL 18 mods gave about 18k per round. His total wealth is about 450k. Also, it's really hard to Sunder a +5 Adamantine weapon (after GMW) in the hands of a PC with an attack bonus of +40 (with only haste, heroes' feast and GMW as buffs). I'm not saying that it hasn't been attempted, I'm just saying that I've never fought a creature capable of doing it - and anytime a foe has tried, I sundered its weapon immediately after it tried. Also, when a PC has a +7 weapon worth over 100k, he doesn't let it get stolen... ever. And this concept of a vengeful DM of which you speak... yeah, that's very much against RPGA policy and nobody should be judging in this campaign with that kind of an attitude. Now, as for Ken's issue.... Ken, I think it's pretty much going to be ETV, and you should err on the side of caution before basing a PC around this. To be safe, assume you need to use Ironwood.
Suvarov454 06-08-07, 07:58 AM	How on Oerth did you afford a +7 weapon? Isn't that more than two thirds of a 15th-level character's wealth? And how has some vengeful DM not sundered/stolen/rust-monstered the thing? Well, with CAA, it would only be one third the character's wealth, which makes it fairly reasonable.
KarmaInferno 06-08-07, 02:54 PM	A lance would be about DC15, but it is an inferior wood lance unless your wood is as hard as steel. Er, normal lances generally ARE made of wood. They might have a metal tip, they might not, both varieties existed in history. Then again, in real life lances shattered all the time, but we don't model normal wear and tear on equipment in D&D. -karma
solbergb 06-08-07, 05:06 PM	normal spears are made of wood. history had metal tipped varieties and non-metal-tipped varieties. As a lance not used from horseback is almost identical to a longspear (can't set vs charge), I assumed D&D is using the metal-tipped versions. The kind that broke all the time were mostly tournament things, designed to break so knights didn't kill each other jousting. The battle lances were sturdier, although as with all weapons in battle, they sometimes broke too. (especially weapons with the force of a 2 ton horse charging behind them...)
KarmaInferno 06-08-07, 05:28 PM	Even battle lances were made out of mostly wood, just heavier. I was pointing out that a "Wood Shaped" lance really shouldn't be any stronger or weaker than a normal lance. Swords and axes and other traditionally metal weapons, sure. But for lances it should be no difference than clubs or staves, except perhaps a slightly higher craft DC. -karma
solbergb 06-08-07, 07:25 PM	And again. Yes, only a little bit of a spear or lance is metal, but it's the bit that does the damage. There is a reason quarterstaffs don't do piercing damage and do less damage than spears. It's the pointy metal bit on the end. The DMG (PHB? not sure) even talks about this when talking about primitive weapons, giving penalties to attack and damage with stone-tipped spears. For sundering, yeah, a wood-shaped lance is just as sturdy as a storebought lance. But not for dealing damage.