Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LGMoses 01-29-07, 10:48 PM	How effective is the feat "shot on the run" in LG games. I won't be able to get it till level 9 and I'd just like to know.
ShinAkuma2 01-29-07, 11:38 PM	The only real use for it is if you need to run past cover and then back to cover, getting a single shot. That happens....Never. Ok, not never, but rare enough that there are better options.
LGMoses 01-29-07, 11:43 PM	The only real use for it is if you need to run past cover and then back to cover, getting a single shot. That happens....Never. Ok, not never, but rare enough that there are better options. true but u CAN manyshot while using it rite? Rite?
Jay_Ibero_911 01-30-07, 12:14 AM	true but u CAN manyshot while using it rite? Rite? No. Manyshot is a standard action, not an attack action. Shot on teh Run allows an attack action durring movement, not a standard action.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 08:59 AM	No. Manyshot is a standard action, not an attack action. Shot on teh Run allows an attack action durring movement, not a standard action. drat. Yeah i saw that. I was just hoping it worked.... ah well
trollbill 01-30-07, 10:32 AM	drat. Yeah i saw that. I was just hoping it worked.... ah well It won't work with the Ranged Precision attack of the Order of the Bow Initiate either, but it does work with the Scout Skirmish ability. A Scout is about the only character I can see getting any good use out of this feat.
kenobi65 01-30-07, 10:38 AM	drat. Yeah i saw that. I was just hoping it worked.... Not understanding the limitations of Manyshot is possibly the most-common rules misunderstanding I see. People think it can be used with Rapid Shot, people think it can be used with Shot on the Run, etc...... And, to get back to your question, in playing 3E/3.5 for 6 years, and having played (and seen played) quite a few archers, at a variety of levels, I think I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen Shot on the Run used, and still have fingers left over.
Camden 01-30-07, 11:00 AM	Not understanding the limitations of Manyshot is possibly the most-common rules misunderstanding I see. People think it can be used with Rapid Shot, people think it can be used with Shot on the Run, etc...... And, to get back to your question, in playing 3E/3.5 for 6 years, and having played (and seen played) quite a few archers, at a variety of levels, I think I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen Shot on the Run used, and still have fingers left over. If you do the Scout archer build it makes it worth it, but then again if you did that you more than likely wouldn't have Rapid Shot (as you need Dodge, Mobilltiy and PBS for SotR). Also the other let down is that Skirmish damage is applied like sneak attack... Personally I prefer to move within 30ft then Manyshot the bad guys, or just QDraw and start Rapid Shot, and if need be do the 5ft shuffle. If your region at higher APLs has alot of 'sneakable' badguys, then It's a close call, if they don't then I don't think it's worth it at all
UMiskatonic 01-30-07, 11:26 AM	Keep in mind that feats are not assessed in a vacuum. It's always a balancing act vs. the other stuff you could have taken. That said, I'd take Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, Quick Draw, or even Power Attack (plan B) for an archer before I took Shot on the run. As an archer, you damage comes from getting multiple attacks to stick. If you're not full attacking, you're less effective than you should be.
kenobi65 01-30-07, 11:37 AM	As an archer, you damage comes from getting multiple attacks to stick. If you're not full attacking, you're less effective than you should be. Agreed. That's also why Manyshot starts to be less useful once you'd get an iterative attack anyway. With Rapid Shot, you're now getting 3 attacks (or more) per round on a full attack; in that circumstance, I think you'd only use Manyshot if you *had* to move, or if you're a scout and Skirmish is giving you more damage with the extra dice and moving 10 feet than you'd get with the multiple shots.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-30-07, 11:50 AM	Agreed. That's also why Manyshot starts to be less useful once you'd get an iterative attack anyway. With Rapid Shot, you're now getting 3 attacks (or more) per round on a full attack; in that circumstance, I think you'd only use Manyshot if you *had* to move, or if you're a scout and Skirmish is giving you more damage with the extra dice and moving 10 feet than you'd get with the multiple shots. To be fair, manyshot has it's uses. While rapid shot will reign supreme in dealing damage (at least in archery), Manyshot let's you do more damage than you normally would be able to whenever you only have a standard action. Especially nice is occult slayer readying a manyshot against a caster, double damage.
Camden 01-30-07, 11:52 AM	Keep in mind that feats are not assessed in a vacuum. It's always a balancing act vs. the other stuff you could have taken. That said, I'd take Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, Quick Draw, or even Power Attack (plan B) for an archer before I took Shot on the run. As an archer, you damage comes from getting multiple attacks to stick. If you're not full attacking, you're less effective than you should be. IPS is a given. If your an Archer then this is a must. Qdraw imho is also a feat to put into your build (if you are going the Rapid Shot route). But tbh I personally don't favor Woodland Archer. I don't do the 'sniping' thing (which is great for the Rogue Archer), My early shots hardly miss (from the Adjust for Range) and the benefit is only for shots that round. As for the Pierce the Foilage (ignoring Mischance - in the Next round), I'm not swayed either way. I've had more use out of Ranged Disarm (since picking it up) against the Frothing Raging PA machines that tend to favor smakcing me in the face. Great to stop the full attack options :)
bitznarf 01-30-07, 12:06 PM	I've had more use out of Ranged Disarm (since picking it up) against the Frothing Raging PA machines that tend to favor smakcing me in the face. Great to stop the full attack options :) I don't know where people get this misconception about people who get really mad. I mean, sure there could be spittle, and perhaps some drool, but a full on froth? That sort of classism (TM) from prancing, cowardly, arrow factories is just wrong. :P
Camden 01-30-07, 01:01 PM	I don't know where people get this misconception about people who get really mad. I mean, sure there could be spittle, and perhaps some drool, but a full on froth? That sort of classism (TM) from prancing, cowardly, arrow factories is just wrong. :P Ahh you must be talking about those pansy, prancing Elven Archers ;) They give all us a bad name :D
kenobi65 01-30-07, 01:09 PM	To be fair, manyshot has it's uses. While rapid shot will reign supreme in dealing damage (at least in archery), Manyshot let's you do more damage than you normally would be able to whenever you only have a standard action. Especially nice is occult slayer readying a manyshot against a caster, double damage. Agreed. When Rapid Shot isn't an option, Manyshot's great. As a general rule, if you can do both, Rapid Shot will usually win out, esp. if you get iterative attacks.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:05 PM	See, I looked at shot on the run cuz I found my old character sheet for my ranger that I'll never probly get to play. I'm wanting him to be really good at fighting giants. I was thinking shot on the run would be useful versus giants for moving and shooting. Other than that, I'm fine where I am with Improved initiative and point blank shot as my opening feats.
Japangirl 01-30-07, 02:11 PM	Your next feat should be Precise Shot, if your only two feats currently are Point Blank and Improved Initiative. Not taking -4 when shooting into melee is a great boon for archers, especially since you will often be taking -4 for cover also.
kenobi65 01-30-07, 02:14 PM	Your next feat should be Precise Shot, if your only two feats currently are Point Blank and Improved Initiative. Agreed; you're going to find yourself firing into melee most of the time, and Precise Shot is pretty much a must-have.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:26 PM	Agreed; you're going to find yourself firing into melee most of the time, and Precise Shot is pretty much a must-have. probly. But then again, my players do have a love of reach weapons.... but yeah i'll probly take ps. My no AR sheeted character thanks yaw for ur help IF I ever get to play him it'll rock. I'm looking at going to Weekend in the Yeomanry this year and it'll rock to get to play him.
kenobi65 01-30-07, 02:28 PM	But then again, my players do have a love of reach weapons.... Just because they're using reach weapons doesn't mean they're not in melee (and, thus, the bad guys are in melee, too).
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:34 PM	true but the penalty for firing into melee doesn't apply if ne part of one of the enemy is 10 ft or more away from whoever its in melee with.
Japangirl 01-30-07, 02:45 PM	I don't like fighting huge things, though. And that's how big they have to be to negate that penalty, not to mention you fight lots and lots of only large things even at high levels. Also, Precise Shot is a prereq for Improved Precise Shot, a feat every archer wants to have as soon as possible. And, if you threaten something, it is by definition in melee with you. If it threatens you but you do not threaten it, you are in melee but it is not (I think).
LGMoses 01-30-07, 02:56 PM	I don't like fighting huge things, though. And that's how big they have to be to negate that penalty, not to mention you fight lots and lots of only large things even at high levels. Also, Precise Shot is a prereq for Improved Precise Shot, a feat every archer wants to have as soon as possible. And, if you threaten something, it is by definition in melee with you. If it threatens you but you do not threaten it, you are in melee but it is not (I think). I would expect table variation on this but ONLY PART of the creature engaged in melee need be ATLEAST 10 ft. away. So if a man is fighting a large hill giant by standing adjacent to it in melee there is still a piece of that giant that is extending into 10 feat. GG GGM ^ those two squares above the carat are 10 ft. away.
Camden 01-30-07, 03:00 PM	true but the penalty for firing into melee doesn't apply if ne part of one of the enemy is 10 ft or more away from whoever its in melee with. Stick with Ranger. And reach will never bother you. 2nd level you get Rapid Shot as your combat style choice, so at 3rd pick up Precise Shot to avoid the firing in combat modifiers. 6th you get Manyshot for free, which means you can take Improved Rapid Shot, as well the ability to cast the very cool spell ArrowMind - It means you do not provoke when firing your bow, and threaten ;) Then at APL6 things with Lots of reach shouldn't worry you at all, no matter what the reason.
LGMoses 01-30-07, 03:03 PM	Yeah, i almost always stick with just one class and ranger is it with this character. 9th level gets me IPS which I'm honestly not sure what it does yet.
bitznarf 01-30-07, 03:21 PM	Yeah, i almost always stick with just one class and ranger is it with this character. 9th level gets me IPS which I'm honestly not sure what it does yet. I think thats 11th level, and from d20srd.org Benefit Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks. In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.
Camden 01-30-07, 03:29 PM	I think thats 11th level, and from d20srd.org 11 levels of Ranger for free or a bab +11. 9 Levels gets you evasion - which is nice ;) Ir was even more 'snacky' when you could use Deepwood Sniper with it - alas those days of ignoring Total Cover are gone now :(
kenobi65 01-30-07, 04:55 PM	I think thats 11th level, and from d20srd.org Or, as my wife, who has a high-level archer ranger in our home game says, "I can shoot a fly through a buttonhole in a hurricane."
clannagh 01-30-07, 08:39 PM	See, I looked at shot on the run cuz I found my old character sheet for my ranger that I'll never probly get to play. I'm wanting him to be really good at fighting giants. I was thinking shot on the run would be useful versus giants for moving and shooting. Other than that, I'm fine where I am with Improved initiative and point blank shot as my opening feats. never really liked improved initiative in an archer myself .. it makes sense if you have levels of rogue and want to guarantee a sneak first round .. but generally archers have enough dex to roll pretty good initiative anyway
LGMoses 01-30-07, 08:51 PM	never really liked improved initiative in an archer myself .. it makes sense if you have levels of rogue and want to guarantee a sneak first round .. but generally archers have enough dex to roll pretty good initiative anyway I figure going first is the best thing around to help archers especially if they're scouts likely to be at the front of the party. My character also has favored enemy giants and is going to be heavily focused on fighting giants. Being the first to act can mean life and death when you're fighting htings that big.
Camden 01-30-07, 09:04 PM	I figure going first is the best thing around to help archers especially if they're scouts likely to be at the front of the party. My character also has favored enemy giants and is going to be heavily focused on fighting giants. Being the first to act can mean life and death when you're fighting htings that big. Yep, just don't fly near them if your anywhere in the VTF, or Ekbir. For some reason they all have Potions of Fly, as I found out in a rather messy object lesson. Lets just say I went to the Norebo's big Casino in the Sky, but The RsoP had a word with Pelor to get me barred from it, so I had to come back, and face another load of them...You'd think I'd learn wouldn't you ;)
Mommy was an Orc 01-30-07, 09:42 PM	But tbh I personally don't favor Woodland Archer. I don't do the 'sniping' thing (which is great for the Rogue Archer), My early shots hardly miss (from the Adjust for Range) and the benefit is only for shots that round. As for the Pierce the Foilage (ignoring Mischance - in the Next round), I'm not swayed either way. The advantage of Woodland Archer is that it means you get +4 to hit when you need to hit. Against high AC opponents or when you choose to fight defensively... Woodland Archer, against tough AC opponents, ends up being about as effective as Improved Rapid Shot - but you don't have to spend a feat on Manyshot then.
Camden 01-30-07, 11:37 PM	The advantage of Woodland Archer is that it means you get +4 to hit when you need to hit. Against high AC opponents or when you choose to fight defensively... Woodland Archer, against tough AC opponents, ends up being about as effective as Improved Rapid Shot - but you don't have to spend a feat on Manyshot then. Still not sold on the idea. The +4 only kicks in once you miss, and lasts for that round. I tend to only miss on my lowest attack roll, and it's 50/50 for the 2nd to lowest so I can't see how this would help... Never actually fought defensivly in the years of playing my Archer, maybe I should if I become the Frontline (which seems to become more frequent than I like ;) ). I get alot more use out of Imp Rapid, than I ever would from Woodland. ManyShot has it's uses. The Surprise round for Start. If yoou use cards there is one that allows you to open the door as a swift action (or free can't remember). I walk up to the dorr, i play the card (if i borrowed one). Door swings open, and the bad guy gets 3 arrows in their face from my Manyshot. Alternativly going into 'Lockdown Mode'. Ready the Manyshot on the enemy caster and when they wiggle their fingers unload into them. You only get 3 arrows on them (instead of the 5) but it does force a fairly high concentration check, which is nice :D As I said before I really don't tend to miss (Not being bigheaded). Within 30' I'm currently at +24/+24/+19/+14 on my Imp Rapid. There is normally a Cleric on the that provides a nice breakfast, and 'upgrades' my bow( normally to +3/+4 depending on the cleric) coupled with having boots of Speed it takes my attacks to +28/+28/+28/+23/+18 in 30' with those Attacks as I said I don't tend to miss - and if I do I may actually get round to buying some Gloves of Dex that I keep promising myself :)
Japangirl 01-30-07, 11:44 PM	You miss on miss chance, I would assume. Invisible or blinking foes, displaced foes, things like that. Woodland Archer allows you to hit on all arrows of the round after you hit once on the miss chance, so that if you shoot five arrows, hit on four of them, and hit on the second arrow on miss chance, the second two arrows automatically hit. It's really cool, actually. Also, +28 to hit isn't really high enough for some things. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but the +4 is really really useful against dragons, certain demons, and other nasty things with AC 40+.
Camden 01-31-07, 04:26 AM	You miss on miss chance, I would assume. Invisible or blinking foes, displaced foes, things like that. Woodland Archer allows you to hit on all arrows of the round after you hit once on the miss chance, so that if you shoot five arrows, hit on four of them, and hit on the second arrow on miss chance, the second two arrows automatically hit. It's really cool, actually. Also, +28 to hit isn't really high enough for some things. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but the +4 is really really useful against dragons, certain demons, and other nasty things with AC 40+. If something is sat on AC40, then I'm looking at rolling a 12 or higher for 3 of my attacks. I rarely meet anything with an Ac 40+ (from Core's, TSS, some VTF(yr4&5), and Onw's. It's only the miss chance, that is a slight issue, but normally there's a Faerie Fire/Invis Purge.Corpse Candle going off, so it's hasn't become that much of a big deal. Probably Jinxed myself now for the next few days and every creature i meet at the Con is going to be AC40+ with lots of mischance. Maybe I'll take it when/if I hit 15th (or die and head back to 11th (losing IPS and Ranged Disarm) and take it when i rehit 12th...
Mommy was an Orc 01-31-07, 08:45 AM	If something is sat on AC40, then I'm looking at rolling a 12 or higher for 3 of my attacks. I rarely meet anything with an Ac 40+ (from Core's, TSS, some VTF(yr4&5), and Onw's. Remember, you already have Manyshot - Improved Rapid Shot and you're 12th level. By the same logic, you really don't need Improved Rapid Shot either. Woodland Archer adds roughly the benefit overall of IRS and gives you the piercing concealment option. I like Woodland Archer a lot better than Improved Rapid Shot, because I don't need to get Manyshot...