Vanilla Tank [Archive] - Wizards Community

Vanilla Tank [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Franco Un-American
03-29-07, 02:24 AM Something basic I've cooked up for a generic blader character. I've confirmed that the skill points work, but the biggest problem is needing a +4 Charisma cloak by 11th level. Perhaps lower Wis by 2 and up Cha by 2? Any thoughts?

Half-orc
Deity: Kelanen
Stats: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6

Barbarian 1: Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Extra Rage
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), True Believer
Ranger 1: Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (Human), Str 21
Bard 1: Bardic Music, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1, Bardic Knowledge
Bard 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Pious Templar 1: Mettle
Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow, Str 22
Pious Templar 2: Smite 1/day, Reckless Rage
Pious Templar 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Pious Templar 4: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
Dragon Disciple 1: Natural Armor +1, Str 23, Improved Initiative
Dragon Disciple 2: Claws and Bite, Str 25
Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon 2d8
Dragon Disciple 4: Natural Armor +2, Str 27, Slashing Fury

After this, I'm primed to go straight Occult Slayer in the High-Level Campaign, continuing to boost Strand taking Improved Critical. One possibility I considered going Ranger 2 instead of Bard 2. This would get me EWM and PT earlier, and either level of Bard or Ranger offers nothing to this build (Bard was chosen due to my priority of Will over Fortitude, and to get some sort of Will bonus in before 6th level). I know I'm trying to do a lot here, but the concept tickles my fancy. Any improvements anyone can suggest?
Gallaway
03-29-07, 02:35 AM Coupla questions ....

Whats the reasoning behind the bastard sword ?

Also considering reckless rage and strength belts and all do you really need strength 20 rather than 18 ??? ... that extra two STR turns into 6 points elsewhere.
Franco Un-American
03-29-07, 02:46 AM I chose Bastard Sword because it's an exotic one-handed slashing weapon, allowing both uncanny blow and slashing fury. Plus, I like the visual asthetic of the weapon.

Strength I wanted to up to compensate for the loss of 2 BAB from bard and dragon disciple. Dropping it is a distinct possibility. If I did so, I'd up Cha to 10 to forgo item requirement, and go 15 Con, diverting my first leveling bonus to Con as well.
Gallaway
03-29-07, 03:03 AM My inclination is to drop the strength.

There are table variation issues with Kelanen and Bastard Swords. Many GM's play that the Kelanen Weapon Focus for war domain clerics (as an example I realise you have no cleric levels) only applies when the sword is used two handed as a martial weapon. (The same problem arises with Mayaheine whose favored weapon is Bastard Sword (martial)) This may cause issues with your pious templar based Weapon Specialization, it may only work when you swing the sword two handed as the Kelanen favored weapon is a martial sword.

There are long threads arguing out these issues.

Its also not 100% clear to me that Weapon Specialization from Pious Templar works with Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) at all. Assuming it does work .. it may not be much benefit. It depends on whether the Kelanen favored weapon (and hence templar specialisation) applies to ALL swords or just one which you must choose upon worshipping Kelanen. If it turns out to be first the only advanatage of Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) would be to use axes and such like as you already have all swords.
Franco Un-American
03-29-07, 03:24 AM Well, the martial vs. exotic thing isn't an issue. I'll be using the sword two-handed in any case. EWP is in the build soley for qualification to EWM, to gain Uncanny Blow, an investment I found worth it for a character with strength this high.

The Pious Templar PrC specifically says you gain Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, and I can't see how it can be disputed to say that won't help qualify for MWM. It gives a great benefit, as the FAQ specifically clarifies this feat to stack with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the like. Thus, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), and Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), I get a net +3 to hit, +4 to damage. If the feat didn't help my primary weapon, I wouldn't take it at all.

Also, what's your opinion on a 2nd level of ranger or a 2nd level of bard?
paigeoliver
03-29-07, 07:21 AM The title is a bit misleading. It is hard to call anything that uses 7 character classes vanilla!
clik_ml
03-29-07, 07:30 AM You are going to have alignment issues mixing a divine caster of a true neutral deity with a dragon disciple. Dragon Disciples rules must have the exact alignment of their heritage (so either Lawful Good or Chaotic Good), and a divine caster who choses to worship a specific deity must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment (in the Deities 2.0 LG guide). This is compounded by wanting to remain non-lawful in order to rage, and wanting a deity with a bastard sword-esque weapon in order to profit from your high strength via Exotic Weapon Master.

Unfortunately I believe something has gotta give.

For what it's worth, I think whatever you decide to scuttle, 20 strength is too expensive for what it gives. If you dumped those 6 points into charisma you may take a level 1 bard spell, Inspirational Boost, and turn that +1 morale bonus from Inspire Courage into a +2. It's not gold, but it's alright and you can do that at low levels where it is significant if you shuffle levels. I'd be tempted to dump the ranger level for another Bard level in fact. I'm not seeing the upside to the ranger level really, and if you raised your charisma then 3 bard levels would be pretty nice.
Mommy was an Orc
03-29-07, 09:03 AM Something basic I've cooked up for a generic blader character. I've confirmed that the skill points work, but the biggest problem is needing a +4 Charisma cloak by 11th level. Perhaps lower Wis by 2 and up Cha by 2? Any thoughts?

I wouldn't do that - you're one targeted dispel magic/anti-magic field away from not being a Dragon Disciple.

You might want to look at Beguiler and having say the following stats:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 6.
clik_ml
03-29-07, 09:05 AM Should be noted- depending upon who you get as a judge. (for losing prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs... different books say different things)
Mommy was an Orc
03-29-07, 09:49 AM Should be noted- depending upon who you get as a judge. (for losing prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs... different books say different things)

You should always lose prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs. The question from a Core rules point of view isn't if you lose, but how much do you lose. In a sense, the books that spell things out are a benefit to the player, because they give you BAB, skill points, saves, etc...that in theory could be taken away.

Prerequisite: A requirement that must be met before a given benefit can be gained

This is in the context that feats spell precisely what happens when you don't have a prerequsite(you can't use the feat). You should simply swap out the word feat with prestige class as they use the same term - prerequisite.
Crazy Boro
03-29-07, 10:22 AM Dragon Disciples rules must have the exact alignment of their heritage (so either Lawful Good or Chaotic Good), and a divine caster who choses to worship a specific deity must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment (in the Deities 2.0 LG guide).

You can also have the alignment of Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good for LG with the open access. Granted, the variety is a limited choice, but you aren't stuck with just Lawful and Chaotic Good.
clik_ml
03-29-07, 11:31 AM You can also have the alignment of Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good for LG with the open access. Granted, the variety is a limited choice, but you aren't stuck with just Lawful and Chaotic Good.

Whoa, I've missed that since forever.
Gumbymoto
03-29-07, 12:16 PM One thing to note is that you will not have the BAB of +14 required for the slashing fury feat at 15th level since both bard and dragon disciple lose one BAB each on the first level.
AOSOL
03-29-07, 12:35 PM Drop your STR to an 18 and pile it into CHA for a 12 you'll have bard song with that improved song spell. for +2 morale on attack and damage and helps out you fellow players. your won't lose any attack bonus and you'll be able to focus on buying that belt of STR +4 rathyer than a cloak of CHA +6.
bitznarf
03-29-07, 12:41 PM You should always lose prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs. The question from a Core rules point of view isn't if you lose, but how much do you lose. In a sense, the books that spell things out are a benefit to the player, because they give you BAB, skill points, saves, etc...that in theory could be taken away.

This is in the context that feats spell precisely what happens when you don't have a prerequsite(you can't use the feat). You should simply swap out the word feat with prestige class as they use the same term - prerequisite.

At which point spellcasting PrC's the require the ability to cast spells of X level, or X type of spell of X level have some major issues. I have asked Britt in the LG Questions/Answers thread if we are supposed to use this rule in LG, but have yet to get an answer. But this is not the point of this thread. If anyone wants to debate this with me, feel free to start a thread ;)[/hijack]
Franco Un-American
03-29-07, 02:41 PM Hmmm, OK, looking things over, and I've tweaked a few things. How does this look?

Half-orc
Neutral Good
Deity: Kelanen
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10

Barbarian 1: Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Extra Rage
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), True Believer
Bard 1: Bardic Music, Fascinate, Countersong, Inspire Courage +1, Bardic Knowledge, Con 16
Ranger 1: Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (human) +2
Bard 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Pious Templar 1: Mettle
Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow, Str 19
Pious Templar 2: Smite 1/day, Reckless Rage
Pious Templar 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Pious Templar 4: Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing)
Dragon Disciple 1: Natural Armor +1, Str 20, Improved Initiative
Dragon Disciple 2: Claws and Bite, Str 22
Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon 2d8
Dragon Disciple 4: Natural Armor +2, Str 24, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)

I'll blow the 4,000 for a +2 cloak for Inspirational Boost eventually, but for a melee focused character I'd prioritize Con first. Slashing Fury's been bumped into high level play, but otherwise this is fairly similar. I considered Beguiler, but thought inspire courage was a more valuable tool. Any other opinions?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Franco Un-American 03-29-07, 02:24 AM	Something basic I've cooked up for a generic blader character. I've confirmed that the skill points work, but the biggest problem is needing a +4 Charisma cloak by 11th level. Perhaps lower Wis by 2 and up Cha by 2? Any thoughts? Half-orc Deity: Kelanen Stats: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6 Barbarian 1: Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Extra Rage Fighter 1: Power Attack Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), True Believer Ranger 1: Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (Human), Str 21 Bard 1: Bardic Music, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1, Bardic Knowledge Bard 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) Pious Templar 1: Mettle Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow, Str 22 Pious Templar 2: Smite 1/day, Reckless Rage Pious Templar 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Pious Templar 4: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) Dragon Disciple 1: Natural Armor +1, Str 23, Improved Initiative Dragon Disciple 2: Claws and Bite, Str 25 Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon 2d8 Dragon Disciple 4: Natural Armor +2, Str 27, Slashing Fury After this, I'm primed to go straight Occult Slayer in the High-Level Campaign, continuing to boost Strand taking Improved Critical. One possibility I considered going Ranger 2 instead of Bard 2. This would get me EWM and PT earlier, and either level of Bard or Ranger offers nothing to this build (Bard was chosen due to my priority of Will over Fortitude, and to get some sort of Will bonus in before 6th level). I know I'm trying to do a lot here, but the concept tickles my fancy. Any improvements anyone can suggest?
Gallaway 03-29-07, 02:35 AM	Coupla questions .... Whats the reasoning behind the bastard sword ? Also considering reckless rage and strength belts and all do you really need strength 20 rather than 18 ??? ... that extra two STR turns into 6 points elsewhere.
Franco Un-American 03-29-07, 02:46 AM	I chose Bastard Sword because it's an exotic one-handed slashing weapon, allowing both uncanny blow and slashing fury. Plus, I like the visual asthetic of the weapon. Strength I wanted to up to compensate for the loss of 2 BAB from bard and dragon disciple. Dropping it is a distinct possibility. If I did so, I'd up Cha to 10 to forgo item requirement, and go 15 Con, diverting my first leveling bonus to Con as well.
Gallaway 03-29-07, 03:03 AM	My inclination is to drop the strength. There are table variation issues with Kelanen and Bastard Swords. Many GM's play that the Kelanen Weapon Focus for war domain clerics (as an example I realise you have no cleric levels) only applies when the sword is used two handed as a martial weapon. (The same problem arises with Mayaheine whose favored weapon is Bastard Sword (martial)) This may cause issues with your pious templar based Weapon Specialization, it may only work when you swing the sword two handed as the Kelanen favored weapon is a martial sword. There are long threads arguing out these issues. Its also not 100% clear to me that Weapon Specialization from Pious Templar works with Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) at all. Assuming it does work .. it may not be much benefit. It depends on whether the Kelanen favored weapon (and hence templar specialisation) applies to ALL swords or just one which you must choose upon worshipping Kelanen. If it turns out to be first the only advanatage of Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) would be to use axes and such like as you already have all swords.
Franco Un-American 03-29-07, 03:24 AM	Well, the martial vs. exotic thing isn't an issue. I'll be using the sword two-handed in any case. EWP is in the build soley for qualification to EWM, to gain Uncanny Blow, an investment I found worth it for a character with strength this high. The Pious Templar PrC specifically says you gain Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, and I can't see how it can be disputed to say that won't help qualify for MWM. It gives a great benefit, as the FAQ specifically clarifies this feat to stack with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and the like. Thus, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), and Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), I get a net +3 to hit, +4 to damage. If the feat didn't help my primary weapon, I wouldn't take it at all. Also, what's your opinion on a 2nd level of ranger or a 2nd level of bard?
paigeoliver 03-29-07, 07:21 AM	The title is a bit misleading. It is hard to call anything that uses 7 character classes vanilla!
clik_ml 03-29-07, 07:30 AM	You are going to have alignment issues mixing a divine caster of a true neutral deity with a dragon disciple. Dragon Disciples rules must have the exact alignment of their heritage (so either Lawful Good or Chaotic Good), and a divine caster who choses to worship a specific deity must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment (in the Deities 2.0 LG guide). This is compounded by wanting to remain non-lawful in order to rage, and wanting a deity with a bastard sword-esque weapon in order to profit from your high strength via Exotic Weapon Master. Unfortunately I believe something has gotta give. For what it's worth, I think whatever you decide to scuttle, 20 strength is too expensive for what it gives. If you dumped those 6 points into charisma you may take a level 1 bard spell, Inspirational Boost, and turn that +1 morale bonus from Inspire Courage into a +2. It's not gold, but it's alright and you can do that at low levels where it is significant if you shuffle levels. I'd be tempted to dump the ranger level for another Bard level in fact. I'm not seeing the upside to the ranger level really, and if you raised your charisma then 3 bard levels would be pretty nice.
Mommy was an Orc 03-29-07, 09:03 AM	Something basic I've cooked up for a generic blader character. I've confirmed that the skill points work, but the biggest problem is needing a +4 Charisma cloak by 11th level. Perhaps lower Wis by 2 and up Cha by 2? Any thoughts? I wouldn't do that - you're one targeted dispel magic/anti-magic field away from not being a Dragon Disciple. You might want to look at Beguiler and having say the following stats: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 6.
clik_ml 03-29-07, 09:05 AM	Should be noted- depending upon who you get as a judge. (for losing prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs... different books say different things)
Mommy was an Orc 03-29-07, 09:49 AM	Should be noted- depending upon who you get as a judge. (for losing prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs... different books say different things) You should always lose prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs. The question from a Core rules point of view isn't if you lose, but how much do you lose. In a sense, the books that spell things out are a benefit to the player, because they give you BAB, skill points, saves, etc...that in theory could be taken away. Prerequisite: A requirement that must be met before a given benefit can be gained This is in the context that feats spell precisely what happens when you don't have a prerequsite(you can't use the feat). You should simply swap out the word feat with prestige class as they use the same term - prerequisite.
Crazy Boro 03-29-07, 10:22 AM	Dragon Disciples rules must have the exact alignment of their heritage (so either Lawful Good or Chaotic Good), and a divine caster who choses to worship a specific deity must be within 1 step of their deity's alignment (in the Deities 2.0 LG guide). You can also have the alignment of Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good for LG with the open access. Granted, the variety is a limited choice, but you aren't stuck with just Lawful and Chaotic Good.
clik_ml 03-29-07, 11:31 AM	You can also have the alignment of Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good for LG with the open access. Granted, the variety is a limited choice, but you aren't stuck with just Lawful and Chaotic Good. Whoa, I've missed that since forever.
Gumbymoto 03-29-07, 12:16 PM	One thing to note is that you will not have the BAB of +14 required for the slashing fury feat at 15th level since both bard and dragon disciple lose one BAB each on the first level.
AOSOL 03-29-07, 12:35 PM	Drop your STR to an 18 and pile it into CHA for a 12 you'll have bard song with that improved song spell. for +2 morale on attack and damage and helps out you fellow players. your won't lose any attack bonus and you'll be able to focus on buying that belt of STR +4 rathyer than a cloak of CHA +6.
bitznarf 03-29-07, 12:41 PM	You should always lose prestige class abilities from losing pre-reqs. The question from a Core rules point of view isn't if you lose, but how much do you lose. In a sense, the books that spell things out are a benefit to the player, because they give you BAB, skill points, saves, etc...that in theory could be taken away. This is in the context that feats spell precisely what happens when you don't have a prerequsite(you can't use the feat). You should simply swap out the word feat with prestige class as they use the same term - prerequisite. At which point spellcasting PrC's the require the ability to cast spells of X level, or X type of spell of X level have some major issues. I have asked Britt in the LG Questions/Answers thread if we are supposed to use this rule in LG, but have yet to get an answer. But this is not the point of this thread. If anyone wants to debate this with me, feel free to start a thread ;)[/hijack]
Franco Un-American 03-29-07, 02:41 PM	Hmmm, OK, looking things over, and I've tweaked a few things. How does this look? Half-orc Neutral Good Deity: Kelanen Str 18, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10 Barbarian 1: Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Rage 1/day, Extra Rage Fighter 1: Power Attack Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), True Believer Bard 1: Bardic Music, Fascinate, Countersong, Inspire Courage +1, Bardic Knowledge, Con 16 Ranger 1: Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (human) +2 Bard 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) Pious Templar 1: Mettle Exotic Weapon Master 1: Uncanny Blow, Str 19 Pious Templar 2: Smite 1/day, Reckless Rage Pious Templar 3: DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) Pious Templar 4: Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) Dragon Disciple 1: Natural Armor +1, Str 20, Improved Initiative Dragon Disciple 2: Claws and Bite, Str 22 Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon 2d8 Dragon Disciple 4: Natural Armor +2, Str 24, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword) I'll blow the 4,000 for a +2 cloak for Inspirational Boost eventually, but for a melee focused character I'd prioritize Con first. Slashing Fury's been bumped into high level play, but otherwise this is fairly similar. I considered Beguiler, but thought inspire courage was a more valuable tool. Any other opinions?