Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MatteBlack 05-02-07, 11:18 AM	I want to build a full casting level cleric/stormlord. I need to have Endurance, Great Fortitude and Weapon Focus: javelin. I'd also like to get Point Blank and Precise Shot as soon as possible. 3rd level spells and +5 to hit are needed as well. I'll be doing it as a human but, unless I can find a domain allowable with the prestige class that grants one of it's pre-reqs or another avenue, 9th level seems to be the earliest I can muster the whole package. I'd prefer Hurakon as a god but, I am flexible if the combo can be made to work earlier in level. Any advice on how to get this any earlier without dropping casting levels or at least be more effective while waiting for abilities to come together at 9th. Do I get the pre-reqs first and tough it out without precise shot for a few levels or delay starting the prestige class and have the ranged combat early? Lee
Mommy was an Orc 05-02-07, 11:47 AM	I want to build a full casting level cleric/stormlord. I need to have Endurance, Great Fortitude and Weapon Focus: javelin. I'd also like to get Point Blank and Precise Shot as soon as possible. 3rd level spells and +5 to hit are needed as well. I'll be doing it as a human but, unless I can find a domain allowable with the prestige class that grants one of it's pre-reqs or another avenue, 9th level seems to be the earliest I can muster the whole package. I'd prefer Hurakon as a god but, I am flexible if the combo can be made to work earlier in level. As a Favored Soul start, you'll be able to get the WF: feat at 3rd level for free. There really isn't a faster clerical option. You're also forgetting about Quickdraw - doesn't do you a lot of good to be able to throw one electrified javelin a round... I think a better way to go is: 1: Power Attack, Great Fortitude 3: Endurance, WF: Trident 6: Brutal Throw 9: Quickdraw Power Attack/Brutal Throw is better for a Javelin thrower on a couple of levels. You get +3 to hit from Divine Power, you don't need to invest points into Dex while wearing Mithril Full Plate, etc...
solbergb 05-02-07, 11:58 AM	Note that power attack isnt a requisite for brutal throw, and that you don't need your prereqs until level 6 (you enter the class at L7 with the favored soul route, you need L3 divine casting), and you don't really need quickdraw till level 8 (where you get divine power and 6 BAB even without divine power) So I'd go this way, making use of a bit of retraining: L1: brutal throw, point blank shot L3: power attack L6: great fortitude, retrain point blank shot for Endurance L9: quickdraw You can take power attack at L1 if you prefer. But I'd go with brutal throw right at the outset. the approach here is to throw things when the enemy isn't in melee and to engage in melee when the enemy IS in melee. All the stormlord electrical/thundering stuff also works on spears used in melee (or trident if you are follower of procan, etc). Behaving this way means you do not need precise shot. After you get weapon focus and more bab/etc you really don't need PB shot as much either.
bitznarf 05-02-07, 01:03 PM	Note that power attack isnt a requisite for brutal throw, and that you don't need your prereqs until level 6 (you enter the class at L7 with the favored soul route, you need L3 divine casting), and you don't really need quickdraw till level 8 (where you get divine power and 6 BAB even without divine power) So I'd go this way, making use of a bit of retraining: L1: brutal throw, point blank shot L3: power attack L6: great fortitude, retrain point blank shot for Endurance L9: quickdraw You can take power attack at L1 if you prefer. But I'd go with brutal throw right at the outset. the approach here is to throw things when the enemy isn't in melee and to engage in melee when the enemy IS in melee. All the stormlord electrical/thundering stuff also works on spears used in melee (or trident if you are follower of procan, etc). Behaving this way means you do not need precise shot. After you get weapon focus and more bab/etc you really don't need PB shot as much either. You could also take the Power Throw route, but that is much more feat intensive, requiring PBS/Precise Shot/Imp Precise Shot for full effect.
MatteBlack 05-02-07, 01:47 PM	I was considering using a long spear and spiked gauntlet and was on the fence about power attack. I definitely see the wisdom of eschewing Point Blank and Precise Shot since I can just switch over to melee with reach. Part of the reason I wanted to speed up the feat progression was so I could get quickdraw around 9th. I'll have to look into Favored Soul and Brutal throw when I get back to my books. What book is Brutal Throw from?
Mommy was an Orc 05-02-07, 02:21 PM	I was considering using a long spear and spiked gauntlet and was on the fence about power attack. I definitely see the wisdom of eschewing Point Blank and Precise Shot since I can just switch over to melee with reach. Part of the reason I wanted to speed up the feat progression was so I could get quickdraw around 9th. I'll have to look into Favored Soul and Brutal throw when I get back to my books. What book is Brutal Throw from? Complete Adventurer - allows you to use Str instead of Dex for throwing things.
Jesse Heinig 05-02-07, 04:43 PM	Why do you need the +5 to hit? There's no BAB requirement for Stormlord, last time I checked. If you're human, you can get into Stormlord right after 5th level. Heck, if you want to be really wacky, you could do a human druid/stormlord, although not being proficient with javelins would be pretty punishing to the build. The ability to cast 3rd level spells means favored soul is slightly slower (need level 6 fav. soul) but your bonus weapon focus (presumably in spear or javelin) from your deity/class combo means you can free up feats for Point Blank and Precise Shot. None of the sky gods listed for Stormlord in the LG Deities doc. 2.0 have the War domain, so unfortunately there's no easy way to have a cleric with the War domain and get the weapon focus that way. Human cleric of (pick whatever god you like that qualifies) Lv. 1: Cleric 1; Endurance, Great Fortitude (can't take Wpn Focus b/c it requires BAB +1) Lv. 2: Cleric 2 Lv. 3: Cleric 3, Weapon Focus Lv. 4: Cleric 4 Lv. 5: Cleric 5 Lv. 6: Stormlord 1, Point Blank Shot Or: Human favored soul (deity of your choice from the qualified list) Lv. 1: Fav. soul 1, Endurance, Great Fortitude Lv. 2: Fav. soul 2 Lv. 3: Fav. soul 3, Wpn. Focus (from class), Point Blank Shot Lv. 4: Fav. soul 4 Lv. 5: Fav. soul 5 Lv. 6: Fav. soul 6, Precise Shot Lv. 7: Stormlord 1 I was looking recently at making an elf stormlord (Aerdrie Faenya), but the arbitrary "you get screwed in dungeons" LG addendum to the rules, combined with the lost feat, make it suboptimal. I want to build a full casting level cleric/stormlord. I need to have Endurance, Great Fortitude and Weapon Focus: javelin. I'd also like to get Point Blank and Precise Shot as soon as possible. 3rd level spells and +5 to hit are needed as well. I'll be doing it as a human but, unless I can find a domain allowable with the prestige class that grants one of it's pre-reqs or another avenue, 9th level seems to be the earliest I can muster the whole package. I'd prefer Hurakon as a god but, I am flexible if the combo can be made to work earlier in level. Any advice on how to get this any earlier without dropping casting levels or at least be more effective while waiting for abilities to come together at 9th. Do I get the pre-reqs first and tough it out without precise shot for a few levels or delay starting the prestige class and have the ranged combat early? Lee
bitznarf 05-02-07, 05:04 PM	I was looking recently at making an elf stormlord (Aerdrie Faenya), but the arbitrary "you get screwed in dungeons" LG addendum to the rules, combined with the lost feat, make it suboptimal. But you are still a full caster :) That right there is enough to make a PC an effective party member.
MatteBlack 05-02-07, 07:41 PM	Why do you need the +5 to hit? I am not sure where I got that. Upon further review, it requires +4 Fort which is far easier to come by.
Suvarov454 05-02-07, 07:51 PM	I was looking recently at making an elf stormlord (Aerdrie Faenya), but the arbitrary "you get screwed in dungeons" LG addendum to the rules, ... I'm sorry? Which addendum is that? I haven't found the rule you're describing. Please enlighten this poor LG newbie, or at least post a link to the document that contains the nerf.
Mommy was an Orc 05-02-07, 08:10 PM	It is in the Deities document - they get a -1 penalty to to init, attack rolls, and saves. Plus they have to sleep outdoors except during winter - can be a huge pain in a City of Greyhawk mod as an example.
Jesse Heinig 05-02-07, 08:30 PM	If you want to do it with some flavor and you have the Ice Cities of the Crystalmists creation card (or whatever it's called), you could do a snow elf cleric of Aerdrie Faenya, assuming you don't mind the arbitrary penalties from the LG deities document. Under such a build you could dump stat your charisma (you don't get turning advancement from the prestige class anyway, and your feats are taken up until high level) and have a decent Constitution score, which would give you good hit points and a nice survivability. Slightly better Concentration check, too, although you should be wearing the best armor you can get. Elf is actually also nice because the Dex bump helps with thrown javelins. Sadly you can't finesse a spear, but you can't have everything . . . Human still looks like the way to go, unless you do half-orc and take brutal throw. No skill requirements + no turning = no need for int and cha.
MatteBlack 05-02-07, 10:50 PM	My current leaning is now A human cleric of Hurakon. Favored Soul was an interesting idea (maybe my next character) but, the allowed Stormlord gods wouldn't give me the favored weapons I was looking for (longspear or javelin). Realizing that precise shot was not that necessary made my choices alot clearer. Longspear should shore up many of the occasions I would have needed Precise Shot for plus, it will be good with Power Attack. Spiked Gauntlets are good for adjacent and grapple hits and Javelin will be good at most other ranges that happen. I'll probably take Water and Destruction domains and the following stats: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 10 The early build I'll plan like this: 1 Cleric - Toughness, Great Fortitude 2 Cleric 3 Cleric - Endurance (retrain Toughness for Weapon Focus: Longspear) 4 Cleric - Increase Wisdom to 16 5 Cleric 1 Stormlord - Power Attack 2 Stormlord 3 Stormlord - Increase Wisdom to 17 4 Stormlord - Quickdraw I figure I should have a reasonably tough combatant with a full range of support damage plus, full level casting and a little undead/fire-based turning early on until, CRs pass out my cleric levels. I have a high enough wisdom to cast all my levels but, probably, not enough to really punch through those offensive spells. I think weapon damage should suffice and I'll stick to mostly heals and buffs. Oh, did I mention? The visualization and personality are largely based on an obscure B-movie Gary Busey character. :) Thanks for the great advice, Lee
jstorrie 05-02-07, 11:23 PM	You can't get WF:Javelin out of Favoured Soul, as no legal LG deities favour that weapon. You can get WF:Trident or WF:Shortspear/Spear/Longspear, but those won't apply to your thrown javelins.
MatteBlack 05-02-07, 11:47 PM	You can't get WF:Javelin out of Favoured Soul, as no legal LG deities favour that weapon. You can get WF:Trident or WF:Shortspear/Spear/Longspear, but those won't apply to your thrown javelins. I can't actually even get WF:Longspear from a god that will allow Stormlords.
King Kashue 05-02-07, 11:57 PM	But you are still a full caster :) That right there is enough to make a PC an effective party member. That's what I eventually figured out with the Stormlord I started. Primary stats of str and wis + full caster means I'm entirely fine with full spells and nice domains with Luck and Windstorm. If I can be competent in combat (and I will be), it's just sauce for the goose...
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 02:04 AM	I still haven't figured out why people are so gah-gah over "full caster." I play perfectly viable casters using nothing but buffs, countermeasures, and divinations, and you don't need full caster progression for those 'cause they generally don't have saving throws. Everything you face in LG will make its saves against your spells regardless of their level, so what's the big deal? That's what I eventually figured out with the Stormlord I started. Primary stats of str and wis + full caster means I'm entirely fine with full spells and nice domains with Luck and Windstorm. If I can be competent in combat (and I will be), it's just sauce for the goose...
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 02:06 AM	Depending on whether LG interprets a "lawful good church" as being one that has lawful good clerics, or only one that has a lawful good god, you could be really weird and get away with a cleric of Osprem, go Divine Inquisitor for levels 4 & 5, then Stormlord at 6+, and you get Detect Evil, more skill points, Inquisition domain and immunity to charm out of the package, complete with casting. Would require a meta-org or access though. My current leaning is now A human cleric of Hurakon. Favored Soul was an interesting idea (maybe my next character) but, the allowed Stormlord gods wouldn't give me the favored weapons I was looking for (longspear or javelin). Realizing that precise shot was not that necessary made my choices alot clearer. Longspear should shore up many of the occasions I would have needed Precise Shot for plus, it will be good with Power Attack. Spiked Gauntlets are good for adjacent and grapple hits and Javelin will be good at most other ranges that happen. I'll probably take Water and Destruction domains and the following stats: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 10 The early build I'll plan like this: 1 Cleric - Toughness, Great Fortitude 2 Cleric 3 Cleric - Endurance (retrain Toughness for Weapon Focus: Longspear) 4 Cleric - Increase Wisdom to 16 5 Cleric 1 Stormlord - Power Attack 2 Stormlord 3 Stormlord - Increase Wisdom to 17 4 Stormlord - Quickdraw I figure I should have a reasonably tough combatant with a full range of support damage plus, full level casting and a little undead/fire-based turning early on until, CRs pass out my cleric levels. I have a high enough wisdom to cast all my levels but, probably, not enough to really punch through those offensive spells. I think weapon damage should suffice and I'll stick to mostly heals and buffs. Oh, did I mention? The visualization and personality are largely based on an obscure B-movie Gary Busey character. :) Thanks for the great advice, Lee
King Kashue 05-03-07, 02:08 AM	I still haven't figured out why people are so gah-gah over "full caster." I play perfectly viable casters using nothing but buffs, countermeasures, and divinations, and you don't need full caster progression for those 'cause they generally don't have saving throws. Everything you face in LG will make its saves against your spells regardless of their level, so what's the big deal? The big deal is having Hero's Feast or Heal at 11th level, instead of 15th. It's having 4 spells for a given level instead of 2. Saves are actually not even a significant part of it, since that's determined by spell level + ability score. Though I would definitely disagree that "everything you face will make it's saves". A Marilith's (CR 16) will save is only +13. Given that even a spell like slow will have a save of 23/24 for a dedicated nerfer, that's half the time they're failing.
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 02:13 AM	I just don't see those as make-or-break influences, especially if you're getting juicy additional support abilities. More spells per day is nice but not necessary if you have a lot of magic items - hell, my wizard's utility is not defined by how many spells he has per day but whether he has a scroll of the spell he needs, since the spells prepared are never the ones that come up. In my experience, LG monsters tend to have ridiculous combos or situational mods that make it so that they'll never fail their saves against your spells. Sure, you may get a few of the munchkins with your area effect debuff, but you'll never stick any serious condition modifier on an end boss. Same for turning - you may get the skeletons but you will never, ever turn a major opponent, even if you have tricked out Heightened Quickened Improved Turning with all the adds you can get and your opponent is a measly 5 HD undead - just ask my buddy Rob who ran into that situation and scored a natural 20 on his turn check, with a greater turning in Consecration, and got "no effect." The big deal is having Hero's Feast or Heal at 11th level, instead of 15th. It's having 4 spells for a given level instead of 2. Saves are actually not even a significant part of it, since that's determined by spell level + ability score. Though I would definitely disagree that "everything you face will make it's saves". A Marilith's (CR 16) will save is only +13. Given that even a spell like slow will have a save of 23/24 for a dedicated nerfer, that's half the time they're failing.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 02:17 AM	I just don't see those as make-or-break influences, especially if you're getting juicy additional support abilities. More spells per day is nice but not necessary if you have a lot of magic items - hell, my wizard's utility is not defined by how many spells he has per day but whether he has a scroll of the spell he needs, since the spells prepared are never the ones that come up. Because "Heal" never comes up? :rolleyes: Just out of curiosity, what "juicy additional support abilities" compare to heal and Hero's feast?
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 02:36 AM	Bonus domains or abilities that grant total immunities. Never having to worry about being poisoned or diseased or any of that nonsense can mitigate a lot of need for Heal and make Heroes' Feast redundant. Because "Heal" never comes up? :rolleyes: Just out of curiosity, what "juicy additional support abilities" compare to heal and Hero's feast?
Lupo 05-03-07, 02:47 AM	I still haven't figured out why people are so gah-gah over "full caster." I play perfectly viable casters using nothing but buffs, countermeasures, and divinations, and you don't need full caster progression for those 'cause they generally don't have saving throws. Everything you face in LG will make its saves against your spells regardless of their level, so what's the big deal? buffers can keep up with practised spellcaster, somehow ;) but nothing beats full caster progression for getting your heroe's feast and enough of all the nice level four and five spells your party members would like to have when you are playing APL 12 and above :D falling behind ONE level of caster progression might be not TOO bad, if you get enough goodies in return, but falling behind TWO caster levels just drops you from the ranks of a primary caster of the spell type in question:mad: . and getting the full progression in stormlord gives you a ninth level spell ability :P that is the goodie, but somehow late at level 15 :( the problem with stormlord is that is one of the most feat straining prestige classes out there - with two penalty feats that do little beside satisfy the prerequisites for the prestige class - so your full caster level is the only thing that keeps you from falling way behind all those casters with nice metamagic feats to spice up their spells or crafting feats or melee feats :rolleyes: . and it eats up as well all those feat slots that would be needed for making the javelin throwing a really boon. for a real thrower one needs some of these feats: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, quick draw, weapon focus, weapon specialisation, ranged weapon mastery, brutal throw and power throw and a cleric, favoured soul, druid => stormlord just can't get enough of them :( to me stormlord is a cool role-playing-character prestige class but nothing for the power gamers, for instance a druid/stormlord of osprem or procan would be a cool character concept, BUT despite the ability to stormride with your mount, the stormlord does nothing to improve your animal and in addition eats up all the feat slots a druid normally uses for things like track, natural spell or other suitable metamagic feats :(. ciao martin m.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 02:55 AM	Bonus domains or abilities that grant total immunities. Never having to worry about being poisoned or diseased or any of that nonsense can mitigate a lot of need for Heal and make Heroes' Feast redundant. You really think so? I definitely don't agree. When was the last time poison or disease actually was a significant issue to a 12 level character? Most clerics aren't casting heal on themselves, so you not taking as much damage doesn't really mean much...You're casting it on the tank, and your immunities and abilities don't mean jack for the other three to five people in the party... Those abilities are nice for you, but are for your character alone, and your immunity to poison doesn't grant it to other folks as hero's feast does...Neither does it grant fear immunity...or temp hit points...Or a plus to hit... And I'm wondering what domain offers immunity to getting hit really hard in the head...:D Say you take a two caster level hit...What class ability is out there that has the same utility as Heal will for those two levels? I have yet to play an APL 12+ module where Heal wasn't acutely necessary. In one Iuz mod I took Heals in consecutive rounds. I can tell you for certain that both I and my party were quite happy the cleric had those as opposed to immunity to disease... ;)
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 03:07 AM	When I played Necropolis (a high-level non-RPGA mod), I took a hit on manifester levels (psion/clairsentient) in order to net total immunities and DR. It *really* paid off. Especially when we ran into monsters with poison breath weapons that did Con damage - totally immune, no worries. You really think so? I definitely don't agree. When was the last time poison or disease actually was a significant issue to a 12 level character? Most clerics aren't casting heal on themselves, so you not taking as much damage doesn't really mean much...You're casting it on the tank, and your immunities and abilities don't mean jack for the other three to five people in the party... Those abilities are nice for you, but are for your character alone, and your immunity to poison doesn't grant it to other folks as hero's feast does...Neither does it grant fear immunity...or temp hit points...Or a plus to hit... And I'm wondering what domain offers immunity to getting hit really hard in the head...:D Say you take a two caster level hit...What class ability is out there that has the same utility as Heal will for those two levels? I have yet to play an APL 12+ module where Heal wasn't acutely necessary. In one Iuz mod I took Heals in consecutive rounds. I can tell you for certain that both I and my party were quite happy the cleric had those as opposed to immunity to disease... ;)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:09 AM	When I played Necropolis (a high-level non-RPGA mod), I took a hit on manifester levels (psion/clairsentient) in order to net total immunities and DR. It *really* paid off. Especially when we ran into monsters with poison breath weapons that did Con damage - totally immune, no worries. Right...And that's relevant to LG in what way?
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 03:16 AM	It's an experience in a high-level mod with a power level hit on a caster/manifester character. You don't need to be snotty about it, by the by. Right...And that's relevant to LG in what way?
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:25 AM	It's an experience in a high-level mod with a power level hit on a caster/manifester character. You don't need to be snotty about it, by the by. It's a thread about an LG characters, on an forum about LG legal builds... An experience in a non-LG mod, with non-LG characters, using non-LG legal character options isn't in the slightest bit relevant... Sorry if you think I'm "being snotty" because I chose to use a rhetorical question to point that out... You were the one who asked why people value full caster builds. It's not my (or anyone else's) fault you don't like the answers you got...
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 03:31 AM	LG is just a restricted subset of the D&D game. Experience with the D&D game is certainly relevant. If I said "I made a vampire character in Requiem who didn't have Disciplines at 5 and it was fine" that would be irrelevant. Play in other D&D games is relevant. Your rhetorical question is dismissive which is why I said it's being snotty. It's assuming that my experience has no value whatsoever, which is clearly not true. For example, if I played Red Hand of Doom as a non-LG module with 4 friends using characters made with PHB rules, that would certainly be relevant to LG play, but by your argument, it would be irrelevant because it wasn't an "LG game." Back to the original question, I am unconvinced that full caster power is such a necessity that level dips should be avoided at all costs, so I'll chalk that up to a matter of opinion. Some people seem to feel that having the highest-level spells possible is absolutely necessary. I can respect that appraisal. I simply don't share it. P.S. Record of Lodoss War is pretty cool, yo. It's a thread about an LG characters, on an forum about LG legal builds... An experience in a non-LG mod, with non-LG characters, using non-LG legal character options isn't in the slightest bit relevant... Sorry if you think I'm "being snotty" because I chose to use a rhetorical question to point that out... You were the one who asked why people value full caster builds. It's not my (or anyone else's) fault you don't like the answers you got...
King Kashue 05-03-07, 03:50 AM	LG is just a restricted subset of the D&D game. Experience with the D&D game is certainly relevant. If I said "I made a vampire character in Requiem who didn't have Disciplines at 5 and it was fine" that would be irrelevant. Play in other D&D games is relevant. Your rhetorical question is dismissive which is why I said it's being snotty. It's assuming that my experience has no value whatsoever, which is clearly not true. No, it's not assuming that at all. All it's saying is that your particular example isn't relevant. If your experience had been with LG legal options, it would have been quite topical. However, when the question was "What abilities are equal in efficacy to Heal", responding with non-legal examples doesn't actually answer the question in any meaningful way... Back to the original question, I am unconvinced that full caster power is such a necessity that level dips should be avoided at all costs, so I'll chalk that up to a matter of opinion. Some people seem to feel that having the highest-level spells possible is absolutely necessary. I can respect that appraisal. I simply don't share it. That's not the argument though. The argument is not that full caster levels are necessary to any casting character. The argument is that no matter what else is going on with a character, a full caster level character with a proper primary casting attribute will contribute to a party no matter how feeble they are otherwise. Which is why Biznarf said: But you are still a full caster :) That right there is enough to make a PC an effective party member. And why I said: That's what I eventually figured out with the Stormlord I started. Primary stats of str and wis + full caster means I'm entirely fine with full spells and nice domains with Luck and Windstorm. If I can be competent in combat (and I will be), it's just sauce for the goose... Not sure how you went from "a full caster will contribute no matter what else they've got going on" to "you must be a full caster"... Though you'll likely find most people will agree with Lupo that a loss of two or more caster levels means you're now a hybrid, and you'll often run into frustrated party members if you describe yourself as a primary caster but are 2 or more levels behind the curve. Not that there's anything wrong with a hybrid if that's what you want to build, but if you do want to make a primary caster, actually having caster levels is rather important.
_metz_ 05-03-07, 04:00 AM	It's an experience in a high-level mod with a power level hit on a caster/manifester character. You don't need to be snotty about it, by the by. I agree, this is not relevant at all, how is losing full caster progression on a psion being ok at ALL relevant to a campaign that doesn't allow psions? I agree that Other games are certianly worth the experience for roleplaying, dungeon crawling, etc but when it comes to legal characters, its LG rules that matter. Otherwise I am making a Daggerspell Warlock. The point is that with full caster progression, you can't really go wrong, as you'll be useful in most parties. (note I said USEFUL not INTERESTING - not argueing roleplaying over rollplaying here at all)
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 04:09 AM	Like I said before, LG is just a subset of D&D. Playing games with high-level characters under D&D rules is still providing useful experience. You would prefer my thoughts from my combo-caster druid/sorcerer over in a high-level Ravenloft game? Or my straight-up sorcerer in a core D&D game back before most of the current books were out, which definitely doesn't have anything you wouldn't find in LG? In short, the argument that "If it's not an LG game it's not relevant at all" is not correct. It's a D&D game that still has paladins, rangers, rogues, traps, wizards and their spell selection choices, magic item conundrums, feats and the whole nine yards. The power interactions are still similar. It's not a 1-to-1 mapping but it's still a useful yardstick. Anyway, I don't dispute that full caster-level progression is useful. I just don't think that it's the holy grail that I keep hearing. I agree, this is not relevant at all, how is losing full caster progression on a psion being ok at ALL relevant to a campaign that doesn't allow psions? I agree that Other games are certianly worth the experience for roleplaying, dungeon crawling, etc but when it comes to legal characters, its LG rules that matter. Otherwise I am making a Daggerspell Warlock. The point is that with full caster progression, you can't really go wrong, as you'll be useful in most parties. (note I said USEFUL not INTERESTING - not argueing roleplaying over rollplaying here at all)
_metz_ 05-03-07, 04:30 AM	No, I wouldn't find your comments relevant acutally, becuas emonsters, background, what you are likely to encounter, are all DIFFERENT depending on campaign settings. Thats the WHOLE point of creating a world for your characters, what might be relevant in one campaign, may mean NOTHING in another. Furthermore, try having a level 15 cap, it means, at best, you get 8th level spells. knock out a bit of that progression and you don't. Its a different campaign. Its like comparing a sci fi D20 setting to LG, technically there are feats, etc and the same mechanic, but whats useful and whats not will be very different. For example, Crafting in LG is sooo differnet from other campaigns, What feats will actually be useful depend on setting, and waht classes will be able to do WHAT makes a big difference too. - Look at perrenland, not many rogues there... (I mean I had one, but thats against the trend) Not saying its the holy grail, just that as a starting point, can't go wrong, take what feats and stats (assuming decent in the primary caster stat) and do what you want with the character, but with full caster progression it will be useful at more tables than such a character without caster progression.
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 04:31 AM	So based on having a different game world you think that the experience I have with the rules is irrelevant. That's . . . I guess the only word I can use is irrational, and it's clear that we're talking past each other. No, I wouldn't find your comments relevant acutally, becuas emonsters, background, what you are likely to encounter, are all DIFFERENT depending on campaign settings. Thats the WHOLE point of creating a world for your characters, what might be relevant in one campaign, may mean NOTHING in another. Furthermore, try having a level 15 cap, it means, at best, you get 8th level spells. knock out a bit of that progression and you don't. Its a different campaign. Its like comparing a sci fi D20 setting to LG, technically there are feats, etc and the same mechanic, but whats useful and whats not will be very different. For example, Crafting in LG is sooo differnet from other campaigns, What feats will actually be useful depend on setting, and waht classes will be able to do WHAT makes a big difference too. - Look at perrenland, not many rogues there... (I mean I had one, but thats against the trend) Not saying its the holy grail, just that as a starting point, can't go wrong, take what feats and stats (assuming decent in the primary caster stat) and do what you want with the character, but with full caster progression it will be useful at more tables than such a character without caster progression.
_metz_ 05-03-07, 04:58 AM	Well you could argue you don't need as many caster levels once you get polymorph or alter self for example. Rules wise it may be well founded, LG wise, useless as the spells are closed. If you had said "in my experience you don't need as much caster progression" and cited some LG related rules examples, then that would make sense, if you could relate it. Instead you referred to a non legal class in a module that isn't LG. There are some thigns that are useful in all DnD - e.g: power attack, but there are some things that are particularly relevant to LG as well. Full caster progression is an example of something that will always come in handy. A Sheild based character may not on the other hand. (Just an example)
MatteBlack 05-03-07, 10:15 AM	I felt the non-LG anecdote held little relevance an LG discussion of the validity of having full caster levels. Especially, when held up as an example as to why having full caster levels can be overcome in efficacy by the additional abilities granted by non-casting levels. Pointing that opinion out could have been less dismissive and more polite but, I don't think the way it was handled stepped beyond propriety. Certainly, responding with how it was "snotty" was at least as inappropriate and smacks of defensiveness. Obviously, since this was my thread, I find full casting to be fairly important. I don't think it could ever be called a bad choice. There could be circumstances where abilities or immunities could be more useful but, with LG anyway, the most powerful spells possibly available are going to pay off in the widest range of situations. Part of my goal with this character was to always be able to contribute to the encounter so, full casting was one facet of the design. Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts on my build, Lee
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 10:21 AM	Like I said before, LG is just a subset of D&D. Playing games with high-level characters under D&D rules is still providing useful experience. When I played Necropolis (a high-level non-RPGA mod), I took a hit on manifester levels (psion/clairsentient) in order to net total immunities and DR. It *really* paid off. Especially when we ran into monsters with poison breath weapons that did Con damage - totally immune, no worries. Sure it is relevant - there is a larger problem here with what you're talking about, though - you've got a high level character who is concerned with being poisoned. Something anyone who has Heroes Feast cast on them is immune to. If you have a Cleric 11+ in that party of yours, your entire party should be immune to that effect. If you're playing a mod named "Necropolis", which ranges from 10-18th, and no one is playing a Cleric... In other words, you could have been a full-blown psion/clairsentinent and not had to worry about those monsters in the first place. Regardless of how playing a Psion relates to LG or not, you're extolling a benefit that makes no sense for a full caster to give up in a rational party. That's what makes your experience not so relevant here. In terms of LG, though, full caster level is extremely relevant, much more so than in a home game. Mods tend to assume that a given party is capable of casting spells of APL/2 level. If you're a Fighter 1/Cleric 6 playing at APL 8, you're not casting those spells. In many mods, that might be okay. In some mods though, that'll burn you - in one recent mod, we fought a ghost who did Strength drain. Our Cleric had only 6 levels of Cleric instead of 7 as he ought to have had - so we played the rest of the mod with two characters down strength. (edit: despite having days of recovery time to cast Restoration if we had the spell)
JamesMaissen 05-03-07, 10:49 AM	Anyway, I don't dispute that full caster-level progression is useful. I just don't think that it's the holy grail that I keep hearing. Main casting classes grow geometrically rather than linearly. The powers scale up with each spell level available. The key to a dip for a caster is that dip keeps scaling, and that it scales well. So the question becomes is what are you giving yourself for your caster level hit? Frankly I don't find that Stormlord is a pure cleric PrC beyond paying 3 feats for moderate abilities. If you are going to make a throwing Stormlord build from a cleric then one really needs to dip a level or two into other classes to get atleast some of those feats back. You are essentially taking a build that pays 3 feats for a PrC and coupling it with a very feat hungry role (thrower/archer). Something has to give between that and you need to choose your priorities there. The original poster has done so by wanting full cleric casting. The storm lord abilities are to augment his clerical casting. Now whether or not they will make up for the intense feat investment, lack of progressing turning and not being able to dip into other PrCs is quite another question. -James
bitznarf 05-03-07, 10:53 AM	I have yet to play an APL 12+ module where Heal wasn't acutely necessary. In one Iuz mod I took Heals in consecutive rounds. I can tell you for certain that both I and my party were quite happy the cleric had those as opposed to immunity to disease... ;) The only APL 12+ mod (APL 12 acutally) that I have played we didn't end up needing heal at all actually. It was COR5-12? Immortal Longings. We had a Barb2/Bard12 with a cleric cohort, a Druid13, a Roguish 12, a Monk2/Sorc10 and a Rogue 3 (Me!). We took some minor wounds fighting before we got to the druidess, but that was it. Timmy the troll (actually a doll being moved around by an unseen servant) was quite effective at drawing attacks, even full attacks from the Hand of Vecna. So it isn't strictly necessary. Hell, to be honest most of the time the high level folks in the area run around without a cleric most of the time. In terms of LG, though, full caster level is extremely relevant, much more so than in a home game. Mods tend to assume that a given party is capable of casting spells of APL/2 level. If you're a Fighter 1/Cleric 6 playing at APL 8, you're not casting those spells. In many mods, that might be okay. In some mods though, that'll burn you - in one recent mod, we fought a ghost who did Strength drain. Our Cleric had only 6 levels of Cleric instead of 7 as he ought to have had - so we played the rest of the mod with two characters down strength. 'Ought to have had' is a perspective that I don't really hold with so long as the PC accurately describes his characters abilities. If he called himself a cleric7 then we have an issue, yes. If he said cleric6/fighter1 you knew what you had going in. My driud4/fig1 for example, I call him cavalry and out of combat healing for example. Oh, and even APL/2 spells sometimes aren't enough *grumble at a recent mod that I can't talk about* :twitch:
bitznarf 05-03-07, 10:59 AM	The original poster has done so by wanting full cleric casting. The storm lord abilities are to augment his clerical casting. Now whether or not they will make up for the intense feat investment, lack of progressing turning and not being able to dip into other PrCs is quite another question. -James What I was getting at is that even if those other abilities don't pan out, by being a full caster he can contribute as a full party member, even with sub-optimal feat selection and so on. Really, when it comes right down to it, anything that doesn't get level 7 spells at level 13/14 is suboptimal. Thats just the nature of D&D. If everyone wanted to play the most powerful character out there, everyone would have a CoDzilla and be done with it. Well, either that or Pun Pun if the GM went crazy and allowed it.
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 11:09 AM	'Ought to have had' is a perspective that I don't really hold with so long as the PC accurately describes his characters abilities. If he called himself a cleric7 then we have an issue, yes. If he said cleric6/fighter1 you knew what you had going in. My driud4/fig1 for example, I call him cavalry and out of combat healing for example. Oh, and even APL/2 spells sometimes aren't enough *grumble at a recent mod that I can't talk about* :twitch: That's not quite what I'm talking about - I'm not blaming the cleric for that - the writer of the mod assumed we should have a Cleric 7 or Druid 7 in the party able to cast 4th level spells. And we didn't - had that ghost gotten off a few more swings, we might have had serious problems completing the mod.
solbergb 05-03-07, 12:07 PM	actually, with drain, a druid7 wouldn't have helped. You need a druid 9 with rejuve cocoon to deal with attribute drain - restoration isn't on the druid list. (assuming heal takes care of attribute drain, I can't remember). Or the cleric 7.
bitznarf 05-03-07, 12:14 PM	Thats what scrolls and/or potions are for. :) Clerics? Who needs clerics? They just want to convert you to their religion and get all preachy on your ass :P For the sarcasm/humor impaired that was tongue in cheek. I would gladly have a cleric at the table any day as a player. Just don't expect all my characters to have the same respect or desire ;) The first PC cleric that my first LG character ran into is this guy here: http://egor.walledcity.ca/turbine/char-show?char=5 Not exactly a shining beacon of tolerance. But dam fun to play with.
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 12:32 PM	Thats what scrolls and/or potions are for. :) Clerics? Who needs clerics? They just want to convert you to their religion and get all preachy on your ass Neither of which are open access - Restoration, the scroll is 800 gp and there are no 4th level potions. Good point Brad about the Druid - I don't play them, so I always forget what is and what is not specifically on their spell lists.
bitznarf 05-03-07, 12:40 PM	Neither of which are open access - Restoration, the scroll is 800 gp and there are no 4th level potions. Good point Brad about the Druid - I don't play them, so I always forget what is and what is not specifically on their spell lists. Eh, I was thinking Lesser Restoration which only works on ability damage, not ability drain. Opps.
Mommy was an Orc 05-03-07, 12:50 PM	Eh, I was thinking Lesser Restoration which only works on ability damage, not ability drain. Opps. Yup. My character actually casts Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell and we have plenty of Pearls 1st. The DM made a couple of favorable rulings as regards Favored Enemy/Archery vs Incorporeals. My character has a Sacred Bow and Favored Enemy(Undead). Ghost died really quickly...but that's the kind of battle that could go really south on a few bad rolls. Ghost gets 4-5 rounds to hit us and we're under APL for the rest of the mod.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 01:48 PM	The only APL 12+ mod (APL 12 acutally) that I have played we didn't end up needing heal at all actually. It was COR5-12? Immortal Longings. We had a Barb2/Bard12 with a cleric cohort, a Druid13, a Roguish 12, a Monk2/Sorc10 and a Rogue 3 (Me!). We took some minor wounds fighting before we got to the druidess, but that was it. Timmy the troll (actually a doll being moved around by an unseen servant) was quite effective at drawing attacks, even full attacks from the Hand of Vecna. So it isn't strictly necessary. Hell, to be honest most of the time the high level folks in the area run around without a cleric most of the time. Unless there's something more to it, I think you'll find few DMs that will spend more than one round attacking a doll... And I can guarantee that someone, somewhere will need a heal if you play 12+ in IUZ mods :D
bitznarf 05-03-07, 02:05 PM	Unless there's something more to it, I think you'll find few DMs that will spend more than one round attacking a doll... And I can guarantee that someone, somewhere will need a heal if you play 12+ in IUZ mods :D Hmm, maybe it wasn't a full attack, thats right. The hand charged the doll that was leading the party by about 30 ft. Cut the doll in half with one hit, leaving him with 2 pieces of doll in front of him, still hanging there. And never got another attack IIRC. The whole combat lasted about... 3 rounds or so. Fireseed bombs are good things (poor Timmy). The BBEG guy got reciprocal gyre'd and baleful polymorphed. No actual PC ever touched the sword, thats what unseen servants are for.
Jesse Heinig 05-03-07, 04:12 PM	Out of curiosity, why the Water domain? My current leaning is now A human cleric of Hurakon. Favored Soul was an interesting idea (maybe my next character) but, the allowed Stormlord gods wouldn't give me the favored weapons I was looking for (longspear or javelin). Realizing that precise shot was not that necessary made my choices alot clearer. Longspear should shore up many of the occasions I would have needed Precise Shot for plus, it will be good with Power Attack. Spiked Gauntlets are good for adjacent and grapple hits and Javelin will be good at most other ranges that happen. I'll probably take Water and Destruction domains and the following stats: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 10 The early build I'll plan like this: 1 Cleric - Toughness, Great Fortitude 2 Cleric 3 Cleric - Endurance (retrain Toughness for Weapon Focus: Longspear) 4 Cleric - Increase Wisdom to 16 5 Cleric 1 Stormlord - Power Attack 2 Stormlord 3 Stormlord - Increase Wisdom to 17 4 Stormlord - Quickdraw I figure I should have a reasonably tough combatant with a full range of support damage plus, full level casting and a little undead/fire-based turning early on until, CRs pass out my cleric levels. I have a high enough wisdom to cast all my levels but, probably, not enough to really punch through those offensive spells. I think weapon damage should suffice and I'll stick to mostly heals and buffs. Oh, did I mention? The visualization and personality are largely based on an obscure B-movie Gary Busey character. :) Thanks for the great advice, Lee
MatteBlack 05-03-07, 04:21 PM	The original poster has done so by wanting full cleric casting. The storm lord abilities are to augment his clerical casting. Now whether or not they will make up for the intense feat investment, lack of progressing turning and not being able to dip into other PrCs is quite another question. -James Don't call me a healer! For the record, Stormlord just really aPpealed to me because it played into a weapon style that interested me and playing the standard cleric roll doesn't usually fit me well. That is not to say that I am a selfish player but, healing as priority one is not fun for me. I play fighter types usually and this concept is thuggish enough while still having all cleric spells that are nice to have. It also has the advantage of coloring other players' expectations of your abilities when you tell them you are a Stormlord as opposed to a Cleric. My hopes are that I will be able to get my fight on and help bolster other players in their roles but, my Persona of a randomly chaotic Storm worshipper will disuade some from expecting to rely on my healing prowess too heavily. I will be somewhat unique, fun to play and reasonable useful to a party in a number of ways. The one thing I do know is that full level casting is always going to pull it's weight. Lee
MatteBlack 05-03-07, 04:28 PM	Out of curiosity, why the Water domain? Even though my turning will fall off at higher levels, I always enjoy the ability to control water creatures and turn fire ones. It may not come up often but, you feel like a bit of a rockstar when you turn the dragon, giant, etc. I guess mostly for the fun of it. Although, I would have considered another god if it offered the "right" domains/feats, Hurakon was a high preference for my concept and Water was one of the domains I liked in his portfolio. It just so happened that while examining Hurakon, I finally read through Stormlord and was inspired.
MatteBlack 05-03-07, 04:32 PM	Now whether or not they will make up for the intense feat investment, lack of progressing turning and not being able to dip into other PrCs is quite another question. -James Oh yeah! I know it is a common part of LG but, PrC dipping is a pet peeve of mine. I am slowly warming to it but, it sort of irks me, especially when there are multiple one level dips. It always seem too "powergame-y" to me. Lee
jstorrie 05-03-07, 04:39 PM	If you want to customize, you can't always take all your parts from the same box...
bitznarf 05-03-07, 04:41 PM	Oh yeah! I know it is a common part of LG but, PrC dipping is a pet peeve of mine. I am slowly warming to it but, it sort of irks me, especially when there are multiple one level dips. It always seem too "powergame-y" to me. Lee IMO a character is less defined by his classes/prestige classes (a metagame concept) and more by how he acts ;)
King Kashue 05-03-07, 04:42 PM	Even though my turning will fall off at higher levels, I always enjoy the ability to control water creatures and turn fire ones. It may not come up often but, you feel like a bit of a rockstar when you turn the dragon, giant, etc. I guess mostly for the fun of it. The ability doesn't just "fall off", it plummets off a cliff... A CR 7 Elemental has 16 hit dice...CR 9 has 21. CR 8 White Dragon has 15 Hit dice, CR 10 has 18. Giants? Same thing. CR 10 Fire Giant = 15 Hit dice, CR 9 Frost Giant has 14. You'll usually be facing stuff that is twice your level in hit dice, if not more. It's a domain power that seems cool, until you actually look at what you're trying to turn. (I've played an elemental turner...very disappointing :()... Unfortunately with Hurakon you've only got two other options. Fortunately, one of them is Windstorm, which is actually a pretty nice domain. Chaos sucks though.
Lupo 05-03-07, 07:14 PM	The ability doesn't just "fall off", it plummets off a cliff... A CR 7 Elemental has 16 hit dice...CR 9 has 21. CR 8 White Dragon has 15 Hit dice, CR 10 has 18. Giants? Same thing. CR 10 Fire Giant = 15 Hit dice, CR 9 Frost Giant has 14. You'll usually be facing stuff that is twice your level in hit dice, if not more. It's a domain power that seems cool, until you actually look at what you're trying to turn. (I've played an elemental turner...very disappointing :()... Unfortunately with Hurakon you've only got two other options. Fortunately, one of them is Windstorm, which is actually a pretty nice domain. Chaos sucks though. yea, it is a pity, the only elemental domain that has some merits is EARTH due to the few feats in races of stone that allow these turning attempts to be used for some nice thingies, my obad-hai cleric (fire & air) is considering to retrain air into earth :rolleyes: or maybe D&D r&d team will finally come up with similar options for the other elements - but i wouldn't hold my breath. ciao martin m.
MatteBlack 05-03-07, 10:02 PM	yea, it is a pity, the only elemental domain that has some merits is EARTH due to the few feats in races of stone that allow these turning attempts to be used for some nice thingies, my obad-hai cleric (fire & air) is considering to retrain air into earth :rolleyes: or maybe D&D r&d team will finally come up with similar options for the other elements - but i wouldn't hold my breath. ciao martin m. I was aware that the elemental turning can be a long shot but, I find it fun nonetheless. I have seen it save our *****es against an aquatic ogre just recently in an APL 2 mod. However, I was considering retraining the domain once the needed turning rolls get too high. I wasn't positive if domains were one of the things that could be retrained.
King Kashue 05-03-07, 11:14 PM	I was aware that the elemental turning can be a long shot but, I find it fun nonetheless. I have seen it save our *****es against an aquatic ogre just recently in an APL 2 mod. However, I was considering retraining the domain once the needed turning rolls get too high. I wasn't positive if domains were one of the things that could be retrained. They are. The retrain as class features, and you can only do one per retraining.
JamesMaissen 05-04-07, 01:55 AM	Don't call me a healer! I don't understand this feeling of being cornered into roles that some people have. It mainly seems to occur with clerics, too. Work with your team. If your team isn't up to par, then find a better team. But then when you do, bring 100% of yourself to it, lest they find a better you. :D -James
MatteBlack 05-04-07, 09:32 AM	I don't understand this feeling of being cornered into roles that some people have. It mainly seems to occur with clerics, too. Work with your team. If your team isn't up to par, then find a better team. But then when you do, bring 100% of yourself to it, lest they find a better you. :D -James For the record, having some concern for the feelings of the other players at the table isn't such a bad idea. They just don't get to play my character for me. I am of the opinion that you play what you brought how you like but, that doesn't stop people from demanding you play your character to their satisfaction. My usual crew is a fine group but, I'd prefer to avoid the conflict when possible. I'd rather have my D&D arguments and debates here than around a con table. It happens most often to clerics because they have so many of the spells other players want for their characters. It can certainly be said they were designed as a support type role. Healer is just not a role everyone wants to play so, in this case, I am choosing to develop the other cleric(and Stormlord) abilities. What it boils down to is that I don't subscribe to the sentiment that clerics should be played a certain way but, that doesn't change the fact that it's out their and I will have to deal with it. It'll be simpler to tell people that I am a Stormlord and I plan on doing Stormlord type stuff. Lee
Mommy was an Orc 05-04-07, 09:47 AM	I don't understand this feeling of being cornered into roles that some people have. It mainly seems to occur with clerics, too. It really has to do with the frequency of clerics at the table. They're one of the 4 primary iconics. They're possibly the most powerful core class. Strictly from a mechanical point of view, you ought to expect to see a lot of 'em - seeing 3 at the same table shouldn't be an odd sight. And that's where the catch-22 comes into play: There are regions where clerics are plentiful - if you play a cleric in that region, you can expect to often play your cleric how you like and still be a member of the 'team' - because there will be a 2nd cleric at the table. So everyone is willing to play a cleric and there are a wide variety of cleric builds - casters, tanks, healer/buffers, etc... There are regions where clerics are scarce - if you play a cleric in that region, you're going to be the primary healer/buffer - and if you're not willing to do that, you're being selfish. In those regions, the only way people want to play a cleric is if they've decided to play a healer/buffer cleric. And in the rare situations where there are multiple clerics at the table, it looks like a bad thing, because the players playing them don't know how to deal with the overlap. I'm exaggerating, but only a little.
MatteBlack 05-04-07, 10:15 AM	It really has to do with the frequency of clerics at the table. They're one of the 4 primary iconics. They're possibly the most powerful core class. Strictly from a mechanical point of view, you ought to expect to see a lot of 'em - seeing 3 at the same table shouldn't be an odd sight. And that's where the catch-22 comes into play: There are regions where clerics are plentiful - if you play a cleric in that region, you can expect to often play your cleric how you like and still be a member of the 'team' - because there will be a 2nd cleric at the table. So everyone is willing to play a cleric and there are a wide variety of cleric builds - casters, tanks, healer/buffers, etc... There are regions where clerics are scarce - if you play a cleric in that region, you're going to be the primary healer/buffer - and if you're not willing to do that, you're being selfish. In those regions, the only way people want to play a cleric is if they've decided to play a healer/buffer cleric. And in the rare situations where there are multiple clerics at the table, it looks like a bad thing, because the players playing them don't know how to deal with the overlap. I'm exaggerating, but only a little. It's sort of funny. In my LG experience outside of our homegame, Tables are often desperate for clerics, or anything with some healing, and then they switch right over to demanding a certain style of play or critiquing the build. One of the appealing things about Favored Soul to me was the limited spell selection because A) it wasn't actually a cleric and B) you could tailor the spells you know (and the ones you don't want to) to your playstyle. People wouldn't expect a cleric as much (beacause you aren't one) and you could end table arguments by telling demanding players you don't have that spell.
Iswald 05-04-07, 10:20 AM	I was looking recently at making an elf stormlord (Aerdrie Faenya), but the arbitrary "you get screwed in dungeons" LG addendum to the rules, combined with the lost feat, make it suboptimal.But you are still a full caster :) That right there is enough to make a PC an effective party member. You wouldn't be a full caster for long. Repeated willful gross violations of your deities ethos equates to no spellcasting, unless you have another cleric of your deity to cast atonement on you. This may or may not be a problem if you can scribe your own atonements and UMD them after you lose your spellcasting
Iswald 05-04-07, 10:25 AM	I want to build a full casting level cleric/stormlord. Honestly, I don't even know why you would want to do this. Stormlord is primarily a combat orientated PrC. You would be much better off adding some fighter levels, possibly master thrower and monk as well. If you focus on casting, you'll put feats into becoming effective at doing something that you won't use most of the time. Primary casters, well, cast. They don't normally spend time flailing about ineffectively with weapons.
MatteBlack 05-04-07, 11:49 AM	Honestly, I don't even know why you would want to do this. Stormlord is primarily a combat orientated PrC. You would be much better off adding some fighter levels, possibly master thrower and monk as well. If you focus on casting, you'll put feats into becoming effective at doing something that you won't use most of the time. Primary casters, well, cast. They don't normally spend time flailing about ineffectively with weapons. Some of us play to enjoy the game not just drive the most effective possible character possible around the battle map. As I stated earlier in the post, I like to be able to fight with some effectiveness and have a character concept in mind (Personality too, not just the best possible build). I posted hear to make my build stronger to better support the "weak choices" that may make the character more interesting to me to play. I am not about having the toughest possible character. I want a character that I enjoy playing, has many abiliities as options it can use and at least pulls his own levels with in the party (non-optimized levels, BTW). I know it can be a downer to have an underpowered character but, I am confident this build won't be a drag on most of the groups I am likely to join. I play to see the story unfold, not to win. Thank you for your honest opinion but, I am not building a "primary caster". I am building a PC I'll enjoy.
King Kashue 05-04-07, 07:26 PM	You wouldn't be a full caster for long. Repeated willful gross violations of your deities ethos equates to no spellcasting, unless you have another cleric of your deity to cast atonement on you. This may or may not be a problem if you can scribe your own atonements and UMD them after you lose your spellcasting It's not a violation of ethos to go into dungeons. He would just need to sleep outdoors unless the weather is bad. Exactly what in anything he said constitutes "repeated willful gross violations" of anything?
King Kashue 05-04-07, 07:30 PM	Honestly, I don't even know why you would want to do this. Stormlord is primarily a combat orientated PrC. You would be much better off adding some fighter levels, possibly master thrower and monk as well. If you focus on casting, you'll put feats into becoming effective at doing something that you won't use most of the time. Primary casters, well, cast. They don't normally spend time flailing about ineffectively with weapons. Some of us play to enjoy the game not just drive the most effective possible character possible around the battle map. As I stated earlier in the post, I like to be able to fight with some effectiveness and have a character concept in mind (Personality too, not just the best possible build). I posted hear to make my build stronger to better support the "weak choices" that may make the character more interesting to me to play. Thank you for your honest opinion but, I am not building a "primary caster". I am building a PC I'll enjoy. Indeed. Criticizing build and saying "if this is what you want to do, think about this" is what the forum is supposed to be about. Now, people need to be open to the criticism (and are sometimes not), but it's about helping someone achieve a goal. Too many people say "Oh, you don't want to play that character, here, play this one", which is nonsense and utterly unproductive. If they wanted to play a different character, they'd be asking about it. When someone comes and says "which kind of apple should I buy?" don't tell them "you don't want an apple, you want a cheeseburger"...
clik_ml 05-04-07, 08:23 PM	When someone comes and says "which kind of apple should I buy?" don't tell them "you don't want an apple, you want a cheeseburger"... Though to be fair, people should at least be advised of the health risks of said apples and the juicy goodness of cheeseburgers from time to time. In this case however, full spellcasting has enough juicyness that such suggestions aren't required.
King Kashue 05-04-07, 09:32 PM	Though to be fair, people should at least be advised of the health risks of said apples and the juicy goodness of cheeseburgers from time to time. In this case however, full spellcasting has enough juicyness that such suggestions aren't required. Oh yeah...I mean if I'm asking for advice on a Build that gives me a BAB of +0 at 15th level, someone should mention that's not likely the best thing. :D However, when someone is asking something that's quite reasonable, in this case "I want to make a full caster Stormlord who can contribute in combat", telling them "no, you really don't want to do that, you want to do this" isn't helpful... Even if it's token advice, it makes it much more polite. "I wouldn't do that because...have you thought about...? That said, if you really want to do this, maybe this works..."
Iswald 05-04-07, 10:56 PM	It's not a violation of ethos to go into dungeons. He would just need to sleep outdoors unless the weather is bad. Exactly what in anything he said constitutes "repeated willful gross violations" of anything? You don't really think that you will always be able to return to the surface to sleep every night, do you?
Iswald 05-04-07, 11:11 PM	Some of us play to enjoy the game not just drive the most effective possible character possible around the battle map. As I stated earlier in the post, I like to be able to fight with some effectiveness and have a character concept in mind (Personality too, not just the best possible build). I posted hear to make my build stronger to better support the "weak choices" that may make the character more interesting to me to play. I am not about having the toughest possible character. I want a character that I enjoy playing, has many abiliities as options it can use and at least pulls his own levels with in the party (non-optimized levels, BTW). I know it can be a downer to have an underpowered character but, I am confident this build won't be a drag on most of the groups I am likely to join. I play to see the story unfold, not to win. Thank you for your honest opinion but, I am not building a "primary caster". I am building a PC I'll enjoy. You seem to be missing my point. Your character will probably spend most of his time casting spells. You are investing in a lot of feats and abilities which you will rarely use, even if you believe that they will make your character more flexible. I say this based on my own experience with mixing fighter-type feats with a cleric. If you intend to use your PC to go into melee, you won't be very happy with the results. If you only cast spells, you'll feel that you've wasted your feats. If you're just looking for RP, you could just add shocking to a weapon and be done with it. I know that there is more to the PrC but, it's not like you need a PrC to RP.
Iswald 05-04-07, 11:13 PM	Too many people say "Oh, you don't want to play that character, here, play this one", which is nonsense and utterly unproductive. If they wanted to play a different character, they'd be asking about it. When someone comes and says "which kind of apple should I buy?" don't tell them "you don't want an apple, you want a cheeseburger"... Your post boggle my mind. I question the value of taking feats that won't be used and suggested ways to make the feats being taking useful.
King Kashue 05-04-07, 11:57 PM	Your post boggle my mind. I question the value of taking feats that won't be used and suggested ways to make the feats being taking useful. Except your suggestion was contrary to what the OP explicitly said he wanted to do with the character... Honestly, I don't even know why you would want to do this. Stormlord is primarily a combat orientated PrC. You would be much better off adding some fighter levels, possibly master thrower and monk as well. And considering the OP read it the exact same way I did (and I was actually just following up on his statement to the same effect), maybe your mind just boggles easily...:thinks:
MatteBlack 05-05-07, 11:02 AM	You seem to be missing my point. Your character will probably spend most of his time casting spells. You are investing in a lot of feats and abilities which you will rarely use, even if you believe that they will make your character more flexible. I say this based on my own experience with mixing fighter-type feats with a cleric. If you intend to use your PC to go into melee, you won't be very happy with the results. If you only cast spells, you'll feel that you've wasted your feats. If you're just looking for RP, you could just add shocking to a weapon and be done with it. I know that there is more to the PrC but, it's not like you need a PrC to RP. I have run into enough encounters that seem to come down to weapon damage on one target or outright ranged weapon gunfights that I think the abilities will pay off enough for my tastes. As I said earlier water domain's turning ability has enough of an infrequent payoff to me. My overall intention is to have a solid (not dominant) build that is survivable and can offer abilities in a number of roles and situations. I think when I enter into weapon combat at intermediate and long ranges, I should do well enough. heals and buffs need little but caster level. Smart spell usage with all my casting ability should have an impact and be very useful in support as long as I don't intend to start trying to blow through NPC saves too often. I'll leave that to another caster build. I could buy a shock weapon but, my character's persona is more than that. Besides, I'll have Shocking burst whatever I want for free and a bag full of plus whatever shocking burst javelins that I could even help another character use if needed all for free. I be left to direct my gold toward survivability because I'll only need to buy basic, masterwork and special material weapons. If I can also have the right answer for the job in some rarer situations, that is something that can be cool to me. I don't think this build will ever totally leave me feeling useless or like a liability and it has some special abilities that could really make a difference in specific instances.
JamesMaissen 05-05-07, 12:19 PM	I have run into enough encounters that seem to come down to weapon damage on one target or outright ranged weapon gunfights that I think the abilities will pay off enough for my tastes. As I said earlier water domain's turning ability has enough of an infrequent payoff to me. My overall intention is to have a solid (not dominant) build that is survivable and can offer abilities in a number of roles and situations. Well it boils down to what you are happy with as a bottom line. The only caveat to that is that you have to not delude yourself in what you have. You may mechanically be better off with an iconic Cleric. If you are looking to be a ranged combatant then that requires more feats than a Cleric comes with, let alone the ability to spend 3 towards a PrC. If you are looking to be a combat factor outside of casting then other feats deliver this. Sometimes the name of a PrC carries more with it than it really delivers. Storm Lord looks very tasty, but the prereqs strip that away. Best of luck to you, James
King Kashue 05-05-07, 08:54 PM	You don't really think that you will always be able to return to the surface to sleep every night, do you? Considering that of the multiple hundreds of modules I've played, I can't actually think of a specific instance of having to sleep in a manufactured dungeon, I think it's entirely irrelevant and won't come up nearly enough to even begin to be an issue...
katrick 05-16-07, 02:21 PM	Honestly, I don't even know why you would want to do this. Stormlord is primarily a combat orientated PrC. You would be much better off adding some fighter levels, possibly master thrower and monk as well. If you focus on casting, you'll put feats into becoming effective at doing something that you won't use most of the time. Primary casters, well, cast. They don't normally spend time flailing about ineffectively with weapons. Not necessarily a combat class, you won't ever get enough feats even with multiclassing. This PRC really aids the ranged cleric. Full caster progression, an extra +3 to Fort, can sleep in light or medium armor, +1 to hit, all good things for a cleric with dex, all you lose is turning, hell you spent CHA on DEX anyway. At 13th level(if you begin at 6th) you cast Control Weather at the start of the Mod(windstorm domain) you can then fly for the duration of the spell 4d12 hours(maneovourability perfect), ignoring all aspects of the storm including Spot etc.. make it snow so the bad guys have half move, and leave tracks that you don't need the feat for. Your third level domain Call lightning is now almost doubly effective. If you get into a combat, say the third one that day and don't have a lot of spells left(you probably want to keep them for spont heals) you begin throwing +6 weapons which didn't cost you 72,000gp each, with Quick draw and Bracers of Quick Strike\Haste thats 216,000gp per round you just saved\spent on armor, scrolls, wands, Staves etc..and you still have a mass Cure Serious to go around if needed or even some Heals. And if you roll a crit you will do more damage than any other Dex based cleric in the game. And if you want combat then Righteous might away, Divine power etc...it still all works. At 15th you get a 9th level spell.Probably the only class in LG that does. I say take those feats, they will help (doesn't Endurance help in drowning situations) the only real problem is the second loss of BAB at first Stormlord level Katrick Who is glad Velnius'(Travel,Windstorm, weapon Spear) tried to smite him with lightning!(sure i died thats what Close wounds is for)
ShinAkuma2 05-16-07, 03:21 PM	At 13th level(if you begin at 6th) you cast Control Weather at the start of the Mod(windstorm domain) you can then fly for the duration of the spell 4d12 hours(maneovourability perfect), ignoring all aspects of the storm including Spot etc.. make it snow so the bad guys have half move, and leave tracks that you don't need the feat for. *cough* LG is a team-based game, moreso than any other D&D campaign. Your allies suffer from your powers just as much as your enemies do.
Efekjek 05-16-07, 03:51 PM	*cough* LG is a team-based game, moreso than any other D&D campaign. Your allies suffer from your powers just as much as your enemies do. Obvious solution: Convince all your friends to play stormlords.
katrick 05-16-07, 07:43 PM	*cough* LG is a team-based game, moreso than any other D&D campaign. Your allies suffer from your powers just as much as your enemies do. or buy 6 pairs of Boots of the winterland, yes i did, thanx, i really appreciate that luurverly sentiment, even though you didn't quite express it correctly, it's a Cunning Stunt!! katrick
Iswald 05-17-07, 10:08 AM	Not necessarily a combat class, you won't ever get enough feats even with multiclassing. This PRC really aids the ranged cleric. Yes, you can get enough feats if you multiclass. Your spell progression will suffer though. At 13th level(if you begin at 6th) you cast Control Weather at the start of the Mod(windstorm domain) you can then fly for the duration of the spell 4d12 hours(maneovourability perfect), ignoring all aspects of the storm including Spot etc.. make it snow so the bad guys have half move, and leave tracks that you don't need the feat for. Your third level domain Call lightning is now almost doubly effective. So, what you're saying is that at 13th level, APL 12 or 14, you're hoping to cast a spell at the start of the mod, hoping that you don't go outside of its 2 mile radius (which is possible) and you have your combats outdoors (which is also possible - note that you can cast call lightning inside without improved effect), so that you can make better use of your third level spell? In other words, using a standard action to do 3d10 lightning damage? As a full caster, is this the best use of your spells at APLs 12+? Heck, I could cast bolts of glory and do 11d12 at APL 12. If you get into a combat, say the third one that day and don't have a lot of spells left(you probably want to keep them for spont heals) you begin throwing +6 weapons which didn't cost you 72,000gp each, with Quick draw and Bracers of Quick Strike\Haste thats 216,000gp per round you just saved\spent on armor, scrolls, wands, Staves etc..and you still have a mass Cure Serious to go around if needed or even some Heals. And if you roll a crit you will do more damage than any other Dex based cleric in the game. Try critting on a bolt of glory or harm for that matter! :P Seriously, I'm not that impressed with stormlord for full casters.
katrick 05-17-07, 11:02 AM	[centred on you] it follows you around, and as a stormlord you can fly when there is a storm and it doesn't affect your spot,listen or movement, but it does affect everyone else's, so you get several benefits and the baddies get several deficiences (like having a permanent slow ) and with several boots of the winterland your party doesn't cop it either, and its roleplaying. and it a domain spell so i get one every day katrick where is bolt of glory?? it sounds like i should memorize that one too
Japangirl 05-17-07, 01:27 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure the storm starts centered on you, but you can't force it to follow you around. You merely control the intensity of the winds and type of storm it is.
katrick 05-18-07, 04:34 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure the storm starts centered on you, but you can't force it to follow you around. You merely control the intensity of the winds and type of storm it is. ETV, you'll find this out at the start of the adventure and can therefore change your tactics acordingly. katrick P.S. of course if ther is an Asherati in the party, there will be a different assumption.!!