Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_gimmick 01-27-08, 03:55 PM	I've been trying to figure out whether I should play a warmage or an evoker and I can't decide. Our party already has a generalist wizard so I just wanted to make a character who did damage while the generalist takes care of the utility. Both classes seem very viable. As an evoker I get my spells earlier, I have some utility spells in case I need them (greater invis or false life perhaps), and if I play a gray elf I could have a 20 INT as opposed to the highest charisma I'm going to get with a warmage is 18 (so 1 higher DC). However if I play a warmage I can cast around 1-2 more spells of each level, I get to add my int as damage, a d6 instead of a d4 for hp, I can wear armor, and I don't have to memorize spells so if we happen to be fighting something resistant to a specific energy I can just decide to use the opposite. Anyone have any insight into which I should choose? I've never played an arcane caster before, so I would appreciate feedback ^_^.
copperwyrmling 01-27-08, 04:34 PM	I've been trying to figure out whether I should play a warmage or an evoker and I can't decide. Our party already has a generalist wizard so I just wanted to make a character who did damage while the generalist takes care of the utility. Both classes seem very viable. As an evoker I get my spells earlier, I have some utility spells in case I need them (greater invis or false life perhaps), and if I play a gray elf I could have a 20 INT as opposed to the highest charisma I'm going to get with a warmage is 18 (so 1 higher DC). However if I play a warmage I can cast around 1-2 more spells of each level, I get to add my int as damage, a d6 instead of a d4 for hp, I can wear armor, and I don't have to memorize spells so if we happen to be fighting something resistant to a specific energy I can just decide to use the opposite. Anyone have any insight into which I should choose? I've never played an arcane caster before, so I would appreciate feedback ^_^. Sorcerer! :P Seriously, I think it depends what you want to do. If you just want to do direct damage with spells, acting as pure artillery, warmage is better than evoker. At low levels the warmage edge is a major advantage, and at high levels your best boom spells will be metamagicked lower-level spells and being able to choose your spell+metamagic on the fly is really nice. Warmages also get a fair amount of battlefield control magic. Wizards have far more strategic versatility and better mobility / buff / debuff options in combat. However, as a wizard, especially a grey elf with maxed Int, you'll normally be better off dropping multi-target save-or-be-screwed spells, buffs and battlefield control, rather than direct damage.
mowaca 01-27-08, 06:28 PM	I'm biased toward wizards, and while specialist wizards aren't as good as Generalist ones, I'd have to say Evoker is the best choice. Lose illusion and enchantment as your opposed schools, take SF and GSF evocation and blast away. You'll want quicken spell eventually. You'll get a few spells less per day, but be much more flexible with other schools (Dispel Magic comes to mind, for example). Warmages really fit the 'Artillery' role in a party, which sounds like what you are aiming at. In LG they get the sudden metamagic feats which you can't get easily with other classes. D6 HD helps too. I especially like the Arcane Disciple feat to get some non-evocation spells added to your list, otherwise they are a one-trick pony which can be frustrating at times (definitely not as bad as the Beguiler though). Last is sorcerers, they get absolutely nothing after 1st level other than spells, so they aren't very optimal. Still, you could build a blaster sorcerer pretty easily and have a lot of fun while having access to spellls other than evocation...just in case (both Evoker and Sorcerer want False Life, for example).
copperwyrmling 01-27-08, 07:09 PM	Last is sorcerers, they get absolutely nothing after 1st level other than spells, so they aren't very optimal. Still, you could build a blaster sorcerer pretty easily and have a lot of fun while having access to spellls other than evocation...just in case (both Evoker and Sorcerer want False Life, for example). Sorcerers get spontaneous casting from a list they choose, which is something other casters don't have. As such, their power depends very heavily on their spell list and their feat selection. "Lack of class features other than spellcasting above L1" is not actually a very good way to judge a class' power - clerics are normally considered to be one of the top classes power-wise and they also get no class features after L1. If it really bothers you, take a (full-casting) prestige class ;) Warmages are better at artillery casting than everyone else at the low-mid levels, though, imo. At high levels it's more debatable, but any PC starting now probably isn't going to make it to high levels. Wizards do however get Metamagic School Focus more easily, which is a significant boost.
jstorrie 01-27-08, 07:24 PM	Evoker, by a large margin; Metamagic School Focus easily closes the damage gap. Necromancer is actually surprisingly good for a pure-offense wizard, too, as there are so many good spells to dump Chain or Split Ray on with Metamagic School Focus. Split Ray Enervation, for example, is a 4th-level spell (with MMSF) that does the same thing as a 9th (Energy Drain), and Chain Wrack is hefty lulz. You can get some interesting high-damage combinations going with Spellwarp Sniper on a spontaneous caster who also has Split Ray, too. If you wanted to do something very unusual, you could do a Rogue 1 / Favoured Soul 6 / Spellwarp Sniper... build, dumping Wis because your Spellwarped spells bypass saves–you could cover quite a few bases with that.
copperwyrmling 01-27-08, 09:28 PM	Evoker, by a large margin; Metamagic School Focus easily closes the damage gap. It's not just Edge that's an advantage for warmages: it's the ability to pick the best damage spell for a given situation on the fly, and at higher levels, the best spell+metamagic combination for the situation. They can get MMSF too, it just costs a Spell Focus feat (I'm not saying that a feat is a trivial cost, but it's not prohibitive either), and they're not required to pick their metamagicked-at-reduced-cost spells in the morning. Necromancer is actually surprisingly good for a pure-offense wizard, too, as there are so many good spells to dump Chain or Split Ray on with Metamagic School Focus. Split Ray Enervation, for example, is a 4th-level spell (with MMSF) that does the same thing as a 9th (Energy Drain), and Chain Wrack is hefty lulz. Split Ray is +2 normally, so Split Ray Enervation is 5th-level with MMSF. Conjuration is also a potentially better school for a damage-dealer than Evocation, with all the SR:no damage-dealing conjurations, although metamagicked scorching ray is superior for pure damage at most levels.
Hariman 01-28-08, 02:33 AM	It's not just Edge that's an advantage for warmages: it's the ability to pick the best damage spell for a given situation on the fly, and at higher levels, the best spell+metamagic combination for the situation. They can get MMSF too, it just costs a Spell Focus feat (I'm not saying that a feat is a trivial cost, but it's not prohibitive either), and they're not required to pick their metamagicked-at-reduced-cost spells in the morning. Split Ray is +2 normally, so Split Ray Enervation is 5th-level with MMSF. Conjuration is also a potentially better school for a damage-dealer than Evocation, with all the SR:no damage-dealing conjurations, although metamagicked scorching ray is superior for pure damage at most levels. Conjuration is better after you get 4th level spells. Although if you can hit consistently with Orbs and Lesser Orbs, that can do a decent bit right there. A conjurer with Metamagic School Focus and a couple different feats would be very good. Oddly enough, Chain Spell + Orbs (or lesser orbs) was suggested by one of the members of my local group. An Evoker or a Conjurer are both good choices. Just remember to have some backup spells and scrolls for high SR enemies if you're an evoker.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-28-08, 10:40 AM	Conjuration is better after you get 4th level spells. Although if you can hit consistently with Orbs and Lesser Orbs, that can do a decent bit right there. A conjurer with Metamagic School Focus and a couple different feats would be very good. Oddly enough, Chain Spell + Orbs (or lesser orbs) was suggested by one of the members of my local group. An Evoker or a Conjurer are both good choices. Just remember to have some backup spells and scrolls for high SR enemies if you're an evoker. Can't chain orb spells, they don't have target entries.
magebeast 01-28-08, 12:29 PM	If you're playing an arcane caster for the first time, and you're essentially going to be artillery I would suggest going with the Warmage. In terms of spell selection it's the easiest of all the existing arcane spellcasting core classes because you don't have to make any selections. It's pretty much really hard to make mistakes with Warmages. If you go human, I might suggest point blank/precise as your first level feats to make all of your ray spells easier to hit with.
solbergb 01-28-08, 12:39 PM	While I agree with Copper about warmages in general, a character starting now is looking at the level 1-6 range before the campaign ends. This is where attention should focus. If the character will be played only in the level 1-2 range (eg, Greyhawk Ruins) a warmage can't be beat, if you crank out the edge. My wife had an "intro mod only" character with 20 int, 16 dex, 8 constitution 12 cha and improved initiative. Her magic missiles did 6-10 damage, her burning hands or hail of stones did 6-9 damage, her acid splashes did 6-8 damage. Especially if you focus on magic missiles and hail of stones, which never miss and have no saves (and hail is SR=no) you will not find better at this APL with any feat mix for an arcane damage dealer. While she had only 5 hitpoints, that's the same as a typical 12 con grey elf wizard, and her armor class was 18 (and her powers all worked prone and/or behind cover) (it is important to understand that there really isn't any spell better than magic missile until about level 7 for single target damage. Even with high dex, size small builds you'll miss a significant amount of the time with the orbs and rays. So most damage comparisons only have to consider what you can do with that spell in the baby levels) At APL4, the above build is too fragile and you have more feats to consider, plus the impact of metamagic and level 2 spells. A more balanced warmage will likely only have an edge of +2, so an empowered magic missile (at L3-4, 10 damage, at L5 16 damage) will outperform the warmage's 9 damage and 13 damage, but only while slots last. If human, the warmage can take the same 3 feats and empower his magic missiles for 14 and ~20 damage (L4 and L5), so the advantage for evoker is really only at level 3 and only for 3 spells/day and only if he ties up all his L2 slots with magic missile. At level 5, the evoker has a clear advantage with the L3 evocation spells on tap, while warmage only has very short range area equivalents. So an evoker might be better at arcane offense at levels 3 and 5, the warmage better at 1-2 and they're about a wash at level 4. At level 6, the warmage's access to ice storm as a L3 spell kicks them way out ahead again. How long will you be playing this character and in which level ranges? I'd guess warmage would perform better overall at arcane offense, but an evoker will in a couple level ranges have a better "nova" for one fight a day.
Howie23 01-28-08, 01:45 PM	While I agree with Copper about warmages in general, a character starting now is looking at the level 1-6 range before the campaign ends. This is where attention should focus. That may or may not be true, depending on the playing opportunities for the character in question. A new player to the campaign has available all of the Year 6, 7 and 8 Cores, Adapteds, CGR, INT, and 3 specials, in addition to Year 7 and 8 regionals and metaregionals. That's roughly 50 rounds of core, 24 rounds of regional, 6 rounds of core special, 8-16 rounds of CGR, 4 rounds of INT and maybe in the neighborhood of 60-80K XP from Adapteds. This sounds like more than level 1-6 range. :) David
solbergb 01-28-08, 04:01 PM	Not so much a lack of opportunities but a lack of tables with other folks to play with. If you've got a group that has not played any of this stuff and is enthusiastic till december, it is one thing. A group of beginners playing a few rounds every weekend could play a tremendous amount of content between now and end of year. If you're relying on convention or gamedays, your opportunities will be much smaller, as enthusiasm and energy to organize such events will likely see a big shift to 4.0/Living Realms after the summer. I'm expecting my online group to take most of the year to catch up to all the core content but I'm expecting my regional/metaregional games to be mostly caught as they premiere, as I'm already having difficulty forming tables locally (as most folks I know are judges or experienced players who have played most stuff already that is not new). Adaptables that are released this year may affect this of course. I expect tables of those to still go off as homegames since that's the normal way they're played.
MwaO 01-28-08, 04:16 PM	Adaptables that are released this year may affect this of course. I expect tables of those to still go off as homegames since that's the normal way they're played. In particular, Sinister Spire and Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins could really change how that works.
TetsujinOni 01-28-08, 05:07 PM	Not so much a lack of opportunities but a lack of tables with other folks to play with. snipped Adaptables that are released this year may affect this of course. I expect tables of those to still go off as homegames since that's the normal way they're played. Ain't that the truth. I've been organizing for groups with lots of gaps in year 6 content, and it's real interesting managing the 7-players-need-it games. And by interesting I mean 'stinks to high heaven trying to find an eighth player'.
UMiskatonic 01-29-08, 03:24 PM	I think that warmage is great fun, and easy to use. There are really two good ways to go: Ranged touch attacks, and saving throws. One needs more dex, the other more cha. One needs point blank and precise, the other needs spell focus. You'll always be okay at the other type of spells, should you need them.
solbergb 01-29-08, 03:28 PM	An important thing to remember is for the first 3 levels, half of the warmage slots are going to be spent firing cantrip rays (which do significant damage via edge). Nearly any warmage should start with point blank/precise shot (if human) or point blank (if not) and then retrain them out later when you have L2 slots and your cantrips stop being used for primary offense. (magic missile is always better, but making the cantrips effective doubles your endurance at using magic in combat). In any case, you use the cantrips when you have a clear shot (no cover, not prone, within short range and if you lack precise, when not in melee) and you use magic missiles the rest of the time. Until level 4, you don't have many significant spells that force saving throws (really just burning hands). At level 4, it's pyrotechnics and flaming sphere and that's it. Level 6+ cranking saves can have some advantages as things like stinking cloud, phantasmal killer, the area reflex save spells and eventually disintegrate and finger of death enter the picture. But in the baby levels, magic missile and the cantrip rays are king. Plan accordingly.
JamesMaissen 01-30-08, 04:40 AM	Nearly any warmage should start with point blank/precise shot (if human) or point blank (if not) and then retrain them out later when you have L2 slots and your cantrips stop being used for primary offense. Another way would be if you went with halfling warmage and go with skill focus concentration for a few levels to help handle riding on a dog and riding casting riding concentration DC 10+spell level checks. At 1st level you would be +9 concentration that way and handle cantrips automatically and 1st level spells on anything but a 1. You'd likely be able to handle both the short range and remove the cover you'd otherwise have to deal with.. -James
Lomiat 01-30-08, 12:57 PM	I agree with the majority that for a new arcanist, focusing on damage from the get-go, you'll want to choose Warmage. Grey Elf Warmage 1 STR 8 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA 14 Point-Blank Shot The wizard/evoker (or conjurer) build grants more feats, which build nicely into metamagicked boom, such as Metamagic Spell Focused Empowered Born of Three Thunders Fireballs at 7th level (can be done), and it requires less multiple attribute demand (MAD). However, the Warmage is simpler, quicker, feels less like a substitute for the other wizard and can gain a lot of versatility, depending on which domain you select with Arcane Disciple (presuming you do - the WIS is at 12, expecting you'll choose it).
Jay_Ibero_911 01-30-08, 01:42 PM	Another way would be if you went with halfling warmage and go with skill focus concentration for a few levels to help handle riding on a dog and riding casting riding concentration DC 10+spell level checks. At 1st level you would be +9 concentration that way and handle cantrips automatically and 1st level spells on anything but a 1. You'd likely be able to handle both the short range and remove the cover you'd otherwise have to deal with.. -James Just a note, no concentration check is required for mounted casting unless your mount is double moving or running...
Timlagor 01-30-08, 02:03 PM	Warmage is certainly the best if you plan to blast but a non-Evoker wizard would still be more powerful for the party (as would a non-damage-focused sorceror) ..just in case you are under the impression that 2 generalist wizards are somehow a bad thing. If you plan to mostly do damage then the Warmage really does off huge advantages (and don't limit yourself to MMs -it's not that good a spell)
delewobmesid 01-30-08, 02:38 PM	I think it's fun to dress like the fighter and blast like the wizard...
TetsujinOni 01-30-08, 03:29 PM	I think it's fun to dress like the fighter and blast like the wizard... Have you been listening to Vamroc's advice?
Timlagor 01-30-08, 03:32 PM	I think it's fun to dress like the fighter and blast like the wizard... If the Wizard is blasting like the Warmage then they are seriously hampering their own effectiveness in most situations.
magebeast 01-30-08, 04:05 PM	If the Wizard is blasting like the Warmage then they are seriously hampering their own effectiveness in most situations. My sorcerer has been running with a really blasy Wizard lately and he certainly does respectable damage but I secretly wish he'd pack more battlefield control :\
JamesMaissen 01-30-08, 04:16 PM	Just a note, no concentration check is required for mounted casting unless your mount is double moving or running... Well I always liked the move up with the mount, cast, then move away with the mount. Sure you can charge forward to cast the short range spell without anyone in the way (for cover), but that can be a bad thing. Also for a warmage, I will say that in LG, at least 1 rank of UMD (cross classed) is almost essential. If you go with the grey elf (and I am fond of deep halflings for them) then crank the INT up, or boost either the CON or CHA instead of the arcane disciple/WIS route. It's trying to serve too many masters. -James
solbergb 01-30-08, 09:31 PM	If you plan to mostly do damage then the Warmage really does off huge advantages (and don't limit yourself to MMs -it's not that good a spell) Actually, with the edge, and the warmage list, it really IS that good a spell in the level 1-2 range, and it's the best single-target damage spell until level 7 (when two scorching rays plus increasing attack mods mean shooting a ray isn't a big chance of doing nothing at all). Think of it as a "you die if you are a minion" and "you lose 1/4 to 1/2 hitpoints if you are not" spell. No save, no miss chance. It's more effective at level 1-2 than slay living is at level 9-10. Most of the reason low level fights last as long as they do is people missing or spells doing nothing (because anything can save against any spell about half the time and ranged touch = miss a lot). If you can actually reliably do something, low level characters and enemies are very fragile. If you track what low level warmages do with their L1 slots, it's almost entirely magic missile, with an odd burning hands, hail of stones in the mix and a very rare truestrike or fist of stone figured in.
solbergb 01-30-08, 09:34 PM	Warmage is certainly the best if you plan to blast but a non-Evoker wizard would still be more powerful for the party (as would a non-damage-focused sorceror) ..just in case you are under the impression that 2 generalist wizards are somehow a bad thing. ) Maybe. I've seen a lot of low level wizards who are nothing more than a commoner with a crossbow, because they don't use their cantrips, they "conserve" their handful of L1 slots, don't buy scrolls and when they finally cast a spell, it's either something like shield, which only benefits the guy who wasn't contributing anyway, or sleep, which gets interrupted. Those that are more rational about their spell picks and aggressively use scrolls and cantrips to give them enough arcane ability to cast spells in most rounds tend to either have a nice impact on combat, or do nothing at all (depending how the saves fall if they cast offensively or whether the buffs had an impact in time, if they cast something like enlarge or magic weapon from a scroll or whether the obscuring mist was more helpful than harmful to the party) Warmages are more consistent. Nearly every combat, nearly every round, they'll contribute to the killing of the enemies. Slow and steady. But it is more like having an archer in the party than having a wizard. It's just an archer that very rarely misses but his max damage in any given round is a bit lower.
Timlagor 02-01-08, 03:34 PM	Sounds like you've had bad experience of wizards. Sleep can be DC16 (well under 50% pass rate and multiple targets) and rarely gets interupted in my experience. Colour Spray is equally effective if they do close with you. Grease is the third of the triumvirate of 1st level spells. With 3-4 slots you can't really afford MM imo (though it's certainly good on scrolls) and Enlarge Person is dependent on the party but can certianly be good. Warmages with bonus damage and more slots can certainly do well from MM but Hail of Stones is very often better (you can often catch two enemies) and the Orbs do do significantly more damage if you're good enough to hit (depends on teh build of course). I certainly used my share of Crossbow bolts but that was for times I wasn't worried about the combat's outcome.
copperwyrmling 02-01-08, 04:35 PM	Sounds like you've had bad experience of wizards. Sleep can be DC16 (well under 50% pass rate and multiple targets) and rarely gets interupted in my experience. Colour Spray is equally effective if they do close with you. Grease is the third of the triumvirate of 1st level spells. My grey elf wizzie with DC 16 on all her L1 spells found she used Color Spray much more often than Sleep - most of her combats started at pretty close range and there was a very real danger of getting interrupted, or having the PCs so mixed in with the monsters by the time the spell went off that it was too dangerous to use. There were also the combats where my wizzie stood there casting Sleep and the monsters were all dead by the time the spell completed, which feels rather wasteful of precious non-cantrip slots. I did destroy one encounter with Sleep at L1, when we ran into some orcs and the starting encounter distance was 100ft or so - if your encounters tend to begin at medium range then you may get more use out of the spell, and I imagine Imp Init might also help. The problem with Grease at L1 is that it only lasts 1 round: it's much better with a slightly higher caster level. Warmages with bonus damage and more slots can certainly do well from MM but Hail of Stones is very often better (you can often catch two enemies) and the Orbs do do significantly more damage if you're good enough to hit (depends on teh build of course). Hail of Stone is a full-round casting time like Sleep, so much the same comments apply. In general, if you have a high edge then it's better to take the guaranteed damage of Magic Missile at L1, rather than the extra point of average damage the orbs give at the risk of missing entirely. The orbs only really do significantly more damage at higher levels (and orb of sound never does).
solbergb 02-01-08, 04:38 PM	If you are a wizard, where magic missile does 2-5 (ie will never drop an orc warrior) it's better on a scroll than in your head. When you're pretty sure the high AC enemy is hanging on by a thread, it's worth 25gp to finish the job. When you are a tweaked-for-edge warmage, doing 7-10 points of damage, the spell is a lot better. You will disable or kill most "warrior" type enemies every time and be a significant threat to bigger guys (and your burning hands at 1d4+5 have a good shot at being "color spray that kills the enemy") A typical warmage does 4-7 points of damage. This will disable or kill the 4 hitpoint minions, and will disable or kill the 5 hitpoint minions 3/4 of the time. The spell also works on pretty much everything you'll encoutner at low levels...even the outsiders tend to lack SR. A significant proportion of low level enemies are flat out immune to sleep or color spray (undead, constructs, plants) and save bonuses of +2 are pretty common as most animals have 14 wisdom and many standard array critters have either a good save or decent wisdom. Keep in mind also that a warmage isn't a wizard. He doesn't get sleep or color spray, so he doesn't have that opportunity cost. The competetion for magic missile are the lesser orbs (which will miss), the two small area spell (hail of stones and burning hands) which do less damage and are harder to deploy (you got to be close or expose yourself for a round, similar to color spray and sleep) and things like fist of stone (which makes you hit things about as well and as hard as the "melee" cleric does, a decent use for your final L1 slot in level 1-2 range) On the plus side, all of his direct damage stuff is better than it is for a wizard. To the point where low level wizards are knocking people out with color spray and sleep that the low level warmages are just killing with burning hands and hail of stones. 6 of one, half dozen of the other, and a different save targeted and different categories of creatures immune (to be "immune" to the warmage area spells you need a decent hitpoint reserve, rather than to be a specific "type" of monster)
JamesMaissen 02-01-08, 04:56 PM	Warmages with bonus damage and more slots can certainly do well from MM but Hail of Stones is very often better (you can often catch two enemies) and the Orbs do do significantly more damage if you're good enough to hit (depends on teh build of course). The problem with hail of stones is the 1 round casting time. If you can afford to do this that's great. I think I used it once as a low level warmage, beyond that I wanted to put damage on the table during the first round or hit an enemy caster when they were casting. I think orbs work more in the higher level game than the lower level one. Range is a very big issue at low levels, and unless you have an elemental vulnerability going for you the math and expected damage are stacked against you. Now it might be that in some rare cases you know that you need to gamble to do more damage, but in the long run the magic missile is likely to give more damage over time. Warmage edge only strengthens the case for magic missile. A magic missile does 7/9 of the damage of an orb spell, meaning that you would need to hit with the orb spell 7/9th of the time to average out (in the long run). Meaning that you would need to hit on around a 5 to get even minimal advantage (over the long run). Even a more dex focused character will have this be fringe for many levels, and even then very situational. Now again there will be times when you know that 1 orb should take out an enemy whereas 1 magic missile is unlikely to do so. Conversely it might be more important to automatically do the damage rather than take the chance. These should be weighed into the above calculations, but knowing the break point is helpful for you when doing so. But to the other issue (scrolls of magic missile) for any class I would suggest an early investment in consumables. Proper balance in use of consumables can lead to being able to bring a much stronger character to the table than you could otherwise. Sometimes it is far more flashy than others, but done well it is a power increase along the lines of some optimizations with the character's build. -James
UMiskatonic 02-03-08, 10:34 AM	The two reason I like orb spells is that ranged touch attacks become steadily easier as you advance in levels, and that orbs are SR = no. By the time I'm 8th level or so, I go with the orb unless I need force damage, or I need to split damage (mirror images, etc.)