Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 03:00 PM	Hello all. Tell me what you think: Human Deity: Pelor 10 14 12 12 14 14 1: Warmage1 PBS Precise 2: Cleric1 Nobility, Glory 3: Cleric2 Practised Spellcaster (Warmage) 4: Cleric3 Cha+1 5: Warmage2 6: Warmage3 Practised Spellcaster (Cleric) 7: Warmage4 8: Mystic Theurge Cha+1 9: Mystic Theurge Arcane Disciple (Healing) 10+: Mystic Theurge So, I see him really kicking butt at 4th level but then it looks like there may be a lull in the middle. At 4th I will be casting like a 3rd level Cleric and a 3rd level Warmage (minus 2 spell slots, plus 1 die on damage, etc.). Then those additional Warmage levels will eventually put me 2 spell levels behind in both classes, where I will stay for the rest of the game. Is this going to be a problem for me? I just look at 7th level and I see that I am still casting 2nd level spells in both classes when I could be casting 4th as a straight cleric and 3 as a warmage. But then again, I have more or less double the number of spells to cast and they are of the same power as a full caster of either class. Thoughts?
Mommy was an Orc 09-13-07, 03:15 PM	Honestly, Mystic Theurge is an underpowered PrC. Delaying Mystic Theurge by another level really hurts. Warmage is also one of those classes where losing caster levels just destroys the value. Just look at it this way - at 8th level, where you're in theory playing Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins, you're only casting 2nd level spells. And you're not casting anywhere near double the spells until extremely high levels. At 8th, you're casting Warmage 7 5 Cleric 5 4 When as a Warmage 8, you'd be casting Warmage 7 7 6 4 i.e. at 8th level, you're actually casting less spells per day. You're not getting a free Sudden Empower, you're not getting the ability to cast Arcane in Medium Armor, and you're missing out on getting the Eclectic Learning options from Greyhawk Ruins...heck, if you put a feat or two into Arcane Disciple, you might actually be casting 4th level Cleric spells...
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 03:22 PM	Ok I see your point. Now as for Arcane Disciple. If you take it twice, do you get to cast one spell from each of the domains per level per day, or do you get to cast a spell from each of the domains per level per day? It would be kinda dumb to take it twice if all you're doing is increasing your choices but keeping the same number of chances.
Mommy was an Orc 09-13-07, 04:40 PM	Ok I see your point. Now as for Arcane Disciple. If you take it twice, do you get to cast one spell from each of the domains per level per day, or do you get to cast a spell from each of the domains per level per day? It would be kinda dumb to take it twice if all you're doing is increasing your choices but keeping the same number of chances. I treat it as being you get to cast multiple spells per day(provided of course you have enough regular slots) So as an example, my Beguiler, if he hits 6th, will be able to cast Cure Serious Wounds and Recitation in the same day.
RtrnofdMax 09-13-07, 05:49 PM	So here is the next question: Suppose I keep the stats as is, go straight Warmage and then pick up Arcane Disciple (healing). Is the extra will save and the ability to heal more powerful than going with a 14 int 8 wis 16 cha and having more edge, more spells, more skills and a better spell DC? I know it's a judgment call, but long term will the party survive better if I can deal more damage or heal damage?
CdrcJsn 09-13-07, 06:35 PM	Edge quickly loses it's value past APL2. A single classed warmage pretty much is good to go without any feats or equipment. Spending those feats for Arcane Disciple to shore up weaknesses in the warmage spell list is actually pretty powerful. Dispel Magic Fly Dimension Door Delay Death Cure spells Freedom of Movement Resist Energy etc.
Timlagor 09-17-07, 03:02 AM	Warmage should never be multiclassed. Mystic Theurges should never* deal damage. Warmages do not wield weapons The Edge is awesome at low levels (especially on cantrips) and will probably always be handy on area spells but it's not worth getting over-excited about. I wouldn't pick Healing for your Arcane Disciple Feat (well maybe as a second one). Make sure you do take Empower Spell. Consider Nonlethal Substitution, Improved Initiative and Spell Focus/Penetration ...there are plenty of good Feat to pick. * well hardly ever -there's always Dreamstealer Wisps out there- but I meant it about the Warmage
jstorrie 09-17-07, 05:50 AM	Arcane Disciple: Healing is pretty decent for mid-to-high level Warmages, since you can pop off Sudden Empowered healing spells. I wouldn't take it before you get Sudden Empower, though. Instead take Arcane Disciple in something that'll give you offensive options versus foes who are resistant to your big-blast shtick–one of the buffing-rich domains, like Nobility or Strength. The Edge is a minor thing for sure. I wouldn't invest more than 12 in Int with a Warmage, honestly–it's not as awesome as the Healer 'Edge.' If you really like spontaneous casting, and casting in armor, but want to heal, why not go Favoured Soul? If you take the Deity's Favour alternate class feature you don't have to be melee-oriented. If you can get Ruathar access, you could always go Favoured Soul 6 / Ruathar 3, to start, and load up on Knowledge: Nature for Magic of the Land; this'd give you some serious proactive healing power, as every time you buff a party member, you're also healing them and giving them temp hps. Those Ruathar levels will give you the skills to get into pretty much any divine prestige class you want, at that point, as long as it doesn't require turning, and there are some decent caster-oriented ones (Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Oracle, etc. Sacred Exorcist -> Radiant Servant would be pretty phenomenal, too, with a Cha as high as a FS's...)
KarmaInferno 09-17-07, 08:03 PM	Warmage should never be multiclassed. Well, there is one exception I like to think isn't horrible. Warmage into Sublime Chord. But it requires a precise path in assigning skill points. Mine is 13th level now, has Warmage casting up to 4th level spells, Sor/Wis/Bard casting of 4th-6th level spells. Effectively no loss of casting level as I'll hit 7th level spells before retirement, same as a straight Warmage would. Plus a level of Marshal and Bard in there. Motivate Charisma is just godly for a diplomacy/social-monkey. -karma
Timlagor 09-18-07, 02:32 AM	If you're getting your 7th level spells at 15th level then you've lost a spell level. That's bad but I can see how you might have found a good way to do it ..not convinced that you are really benefitting from being a warmage rather than a mostly-Bard though. I agree that it's not horrible though levels 9&10 are probably fairly weak with the non-caster levels. Can you drop the Bard or Marshal level for another Warmage?
JamesMaissen 09-18-07, 02:46 AM	The Edge is awesome at low levels (especially on cantrips) and will probably always be handy on area spells but it's not worth getting over-excited about. A nit-pick here. Edge is something that unless you work really hard at it fades with levels. The same way cleave and great cleave can fade with levels. If you build around it then you can utilize it. -James
KarmaInferno 09-18-07, 03:28 AM	If you're getting your 7th level spells at 15th level then you've lost a spell level. That's bad but I can see how you might have found a good way to do it ..not convinced that you are really benefitting from being a warmage rather than a mostly-BArd though. Can you drop the Bard or Marshal level for another Warmage? Would not help. Sublime Chord earliest entry is 11th level. It builds to 7th level spells at 15th level. There is no way to push it earlier. This also means that the bard and marshal levels have zero impact on SC spell power. On the plus side, I get 6th level Bard spells at 13th level. I wanted a blasty bard, with more firepower than a bard normally runs around with. Warmage does this. The Orb spells alone kick righteous buttock. -karma
jhorred 09-18-07, 12:35 PM	A nit-pick here. Edge is something that unless you work really hard at it fades with levels. The same way cleave and great cleave can fade with levels. If you build around it then you can utilize it. -James What book are the Arcane Disciple feats in? Heck, my fighter retrained his cleave recently, but I digress....
copper_wyrmling 09-20-07, 11:35 PM	Would not help. Sublime Chord earliest entry is 11th level. It builds to 7th level spells at 15th level. There is no way to push it earlier. This also means that the bard and marshal levels have zero impact on SC spell power. On the plus side, I get 6th level Bard spells at 13th level. I wanted a blasty bard, with more firepower than a bard normally runs around with. Warmage does this. The Orb spells alone kick righteous buttock. -karma I imagine it's an interesting balance - you have lots and lots of warmage spell slots and access to pretty much every L1-4 blast spell, then a small number of high-level non-blasty spells and spell slots that you need to use judiciously. It seems like from the warmage perspective, the biggest loss of casting is not just the delayed spell-level progression, but the vastly reduced number of spells/day and spells known at the higher tiers. The skill prereqs aren't actually as nasty as I thought originally, especially if you emphasize Int.
KarmaInferno 09-21-07, 11:35 AM	You're right in that I have to carefully consider the use of the SC spells. Most fights it's 90% the warmage spells anyhow. More than half of my Sublime Chord spells are party-buffing or battlefield control, so generally I don't need to use too many in any given fight, and those are usually in the first couple of rounds. The rest of the time I just blast. I started with a 16 Int. I probably could have done it with a 14 Int, but being the character is as much a skill monkey as she is a blaster, the extra skill points were advantageous, especially with the bard skill list. -karma
Mommy was an Orc 09-21-07, 11:54 AM	Well, there is one exception I like to think isn't horrible. Warmage into Sublime Chord. That's not the only one. Scout 1/Warmage 7/Unseen Seer 7 - you lose a little casting power in exchange for turning into a spell monkey who does +4d6 Skirmish damage. With the Greyhawk Ruins Eclectic Learning option, it actually isn't too difficult to get into Unseen Seer with its 2 Divination spell prereq.
RtrnofdMax 09-21-07, 01:27 PM	I don't believe you can apply your skirmish damage to area of affect spells, and you're taking a caster level penalty. I don't see the return being so good. Might as well take spellwarp sniper. You don't need all the skill prereqs or divination spells, and you can still apply precision damage. Additionally, you can do this with your orbs or any area of affect spell. Both PrCs seem suboptimal to me now that I look at it.
Mommy was an Orc 09-21-07, 03:10 PM	I don't believe you can apply your skirmish damage to area of affect spells, and you're taking a caster level penalty. I don't see the return being so good. Might as well take spellwarp sniper. You don't need all the skill prereqs or divination spells, and you can still apply precision damage. Additionally, you can do this with your orbs or any area of affect spell. Both PrCs seem suboptimal to me now that I look at it. The return is amazing. On odd levels, you do more damage than a pure Warmage with your attack roll spells. On even levels, you're not spectacularly behind in damage(though it won't be great) And that's in the context that you're a full-fledged skill monkey who can find/disarm traps for the party. Especially now that retraining wouldn't cause significant TU problems.
solbergb 09-25-07, 04:02 PM	Three words. Don't do it. The warmage spell list is severely underpowered if you lose any caster levels. Losing three spell levels makes the spells utterly irrelevant (unlike the wiz/sor list where spells like grease, glitterdust, web, haste, etc retain utility even at higher levels). You are in fact two entire APL's behind an equivalent blaster wizard. A traditional cleric/wizard theurge is extremely challenging to play at a level where it contributes as well as nearly any other iconic character, caster or otherwise. Mixing a spont caster in makes it even weaker (because you only get your first MT level that advances both at level 8). Mixing a spont caster with useless level 1-2 spells (for the APL) is adding insult to injury. At level 8, a real warmage is doing evards, empowered scorching rays, all of the orb spells, fireballs, etc, while the best you can muster is magic missile, lesser orbs, unempowered scorching rays and burning hands. The bad guys won't even notice you. Meanwhile your cleric buffs are still level 1-2, you're casting bless, remove paralysis and cure moderate wounds, while a real cleric is casting recitation, delay death and freedom of movement. At level 8, a real cler/wiz mystic theurge is casting haste and prayer. He's helping. Not as well as a full caster would, but he's helping enough to be useful. Edit: Ah heck. The thread has now moved well beyond its original title. Never mind :)