Weird Beguiler Dragon Disciple Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weird Beguiler Dragon Disciple Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mommy was an Orc
04-27-07, 01:11 PM 1: Beguiler 1
2: Fighter 1
3: Fighter 2
4: Monk 1
5: Monk 2
6: Dragon Disciple 1
7: Dragon Disciple 2
8: Dragon Disciple 3
9: Dragon Disciple 4
10: Unseen Seer 1
11: Unseen Seer 2
12: Nightsong Enforcer 1
13: Unseen Seer 3
14: Unseen Seer 4
15: Beguiler 2

Here's the weird part about it - no cross-class skills are required for the build - with the exception of Hide(which is filled in the Monk levels), DD has both of Unseen Seer's skills, which are required for Nightsong Enforcer without cross-classing. Then Nightsong Enforcer grants a d6 of sneak attack, which activates the Unseen Seer bonus damage. Yet as there's a level of Beguiler in the build, it has trapfinding.

So +11 BAB, 3rd level spells, +3d6 Sneak, reasonably full fledged skill monkey by the end of the build. Don't think I'd play it, just has a certain interesting set of mechanics going on.
Timlagor
04-27-07, 01:29 PM Does the US bonus damage work for levels you take before you get Sneak Attack?
Mommy was an Orc
04-27-07, 01:52 PM Does the US bonus damage work for levels you take before you get Sneak Attack?

Not until you get SA - through cross-classing, it is possible to take Nightsong Enforcer first.
bitznarf
04-27-07, 01:56 PM /me scratches my head, wondering how such a character would ever have come about. How would you roleplay that?
JamesMaissen
04-27-07, 02:51 PM /me scratches my head, wondering how such a character would ever have come about. How would you roleplay that?

Go with Baklunish background (if not race), something like following Xan Yae.

More importantly is that mechanically to play it up will be VERY rough. At 6th level you have a wizard BAB, cleric hps, and likely near useless spells (as your stats will be spread and the beguiler level 1 list is not all that impressive). You would have only moderate skills after suffering through Fighter levels, mostly from your 1st level.

I think it just is trying to juggle too much here.

It suffers being too late of a late bloomer imho. Though it's entertaining for trying to make use of beguiler to multiclass as well as use dragon disciple whch always seems to have more takers than decent builds.

-James
Mommy was an Orc
04-27-07, 03:37 PM Go with Baklunish background (if not race), something like following Xan Yae.

More importantly is that mechanically to play it up will be VERY rough. At 6th level you have a wizard BAB, cleric hps, and likely near useless spells (as your stats will be spread and the beguiler level 1 list is not all that impressive). You would have only moderate skills after suffering through Fighter levels, mostly from your 1st level.s

I think you're looking at the build in the wrong way - unlike a typical Dragon Disciple build, it can also afford to have a decent Int without sacrificing the physical stats. And it can just blow off Wisdom/Charisma for a decent Strength.

I don't think that this 6 level build would be hard to play at all - and once 7th level comes along, it gets reasonably dangerous with so many trip and grapple attempts:

Human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8

1: Beguiler 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Fighter 1: Power Attack
3: Fighter 2: Deady Defense, Practiced Spellcaster(useful for Mage Armor, could be something else initially that gets retrained, such as Combat Reflexes)
4: Monk 1: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike
5: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Acrobat(does require 2 points of cc'ing)
7: Dragon Disciple 2

Improved Trip with the extra DD strength and Combat Acrobat to ensure you can't be tripped back means you do all Trip attacks with 2 points put into Combat Expertise.

(edit: to be clear - I don't regard this as a powerhouse build - I just think it won't have as rough of a time of it as James thinks)
bitznarf
04-27-07, 03:39 PM I think you're looking at the build in the wrong way - unlike a typical Dragon Disciple build, it can also afford to have a decent Int without sacrificing the physical stats. And it can just blow off Wisdom/Charisma for a decent Strength.

I don't think that this 6 level build would be hard to play at all - and once 7th level comes along, it gets reasonably dangerous with so many trip and grapple attempts:

Human
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8

1: Beguiler 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2: Fighter 1: Power Attack
3: Fighter 2: Deady Defense, Practiced Spellcaster(useful for Mage Armor, could be something else initially that gets retrained, such as Combat Reflexes)
4: Monk 1: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike
5: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Acrobat(does require 2 points of cc'ing)
7: Dragon Disciple 2

Improved Trip with the extra DD strength and Combat Acrobat to ensure you can't be tripped back means you do all Trip attacks with 2 points put into Combat Expertise.
Why do you want mage armor? A beguiler can cast in light armor without a problem.
Mommy was an Orc
04-27-07, 03:52 PM Why do you want mage armor? A beguiler can cast in light armor without a problem.

Monk Flurry - yes, it sounds like it should have a truly horrid to-hit chance, but the point is to generate a lot of touch attacks that then translate into damage. And once you get 2nd level spells, it gets more valuable.
JamesMaissen
04-28-07, 10:04 PM Monk Flurry - yes, it sounds like it should have a truly horrid to-hit chance, but the point is to generate a lot of touch attacks that then translate into damage. And once you get 2nd level spells, it gets more valuable.

First I understand it's not a power build but rather a cute/interesting one. And it is an interesting use of Beguiler/Dragon Disciple. But I do think that it's a very slow build up to being mediocre and that's due to trying to overload too many things to the mix.

For example on the 2nd level spells you mean when it gets them at 13th level? You'll have all kinds of 1st level slots (bonus from DD) but only a few 2nd level ones (ie 4).

And while I understand the idea is to flurry, at that point you are talking having an AC 16 (18 with Expertiese listed earlier) making attacks at +4 (or +2 with expertiese). And this is at 6th level. You're only possibly hitting with touch attacks and even then you're missing a goodly amount to get that +7 (trip) or +10 (grapple) check to achieve anything from it. Yeah it'll succeed a reasonable amount of the time but not enough to merit Monk-like hps doing so.

Compare it to an iconic Monk6 with a 14 Wis instead of Int and you'll see what I mean.

For starters, that's like +6 vs +2 to hit, not to mention better movement, damage, AC and Ki Strike. The saves total the same (though +3 FORT vs +2 REF and +1 WILL is probably weaker what with Evasion) which for a mutt is a very bad sign. The hps are near the same enough to be equivalent. The AC is not dependant on attacking/flatfooted unlike the CE. Now the Monk6 does loose alot of skills (8 skill points after 1st and 20 skill points at 1st) including trapfinding (where argueably 18 or those skill points are going) in comparison.

For that comparison's sake a 12 WIS/10 INT would give the same AC, WILL saves and roughly the same skill points after the traps skills (though not as optimal a choice it still compares favorably).

Now the hitroll is the biggest hit there as even in the tripping and grappling (where the later is slightly better with Monk6) you're missing with the Beg build twice as often against a flat AC 10 touch. The loss of hitroll only gets worse as ACs get higher.

That's what I mean by painful levels. It looks bad even subiconic. Contributing meaningfully will be hard.

But it is interesting to see a build try to use spontaneous INT for Dragon Disciple, and multiclassing Beguiler is always rough to try to achieve.

-James
Mommy was an Orc
04-29-07, 12:51 AM And while I understand the idea is to flurry, at that point you are talking having an AC 16 (18 with Expertiese listed earlier) making attacks at +4 (or +2 with expertiese). And this is at 6th level. You're only possibly hitting with touch attacks and even then you're missing a goodly amount to get that +7 (trip) or +10 (grapple) check to achieve anything from it. Yeah it'll succeed a reasonable amount of the time but not enough to merit Monk-like hps doing so.

The point of flurrying is when he's got the Dragon Disciple bonus to strength kicking in and the extra 3 attacks. Yes, 6th level is a weak level, but before that, he's using a Guisarme all the time - even after that, he's still carrying one, looking for AoOs on the first couple of rounds.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 01:11 PM	1: Beguiler 1 2: Fighter 1 3: Fighter 2 4: Monk 1 5: Monk 2 6: Dragon Disciple 1 7: Dragon Disciple 2 8: Dragon Disciple 3 9: Dragon Disciple 4 10: Unseen Seer 1 11: Unseen Seer 2 12: Nightsong Enforcer 1 13: Unseen Seer 3 14: Unseen Seer 4 15: Beguiler 2 Here's the weird part about it - no cross-class skills are required for the build - with the exception of Hide(which is filled in the Monk levels), DD has both of Unseen Seer's skills, which are required for Nightsong Enforcer without cross-classing. Then Nightsong Enforcer grants a d6 of sneak attack, which activates the Unseen Seer bonus damage. Yet as there's a level of Beguiler in the build, it has trapfinding. So +11 BAB, 3rd level spells, +3d6 Sneak, reasonably full fledged skill monkey by the end of the build. Don't think I'd play it, just has a certain interesting set of mechanics going on.
Timlagor 04-27-07, 01:29 PM	Does the US bonus damage work for levels you take before you get Sneak Attack?
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 01:52 PM	Does the US bonus damage work for levels you take before you get Sneak Attack? Not until you get SA - through cross-classing, it is possible to take Nightsong Enforcer first.
bitznarf 04-27-07, 01:56 PM	/me scratches my head, wondering how such a character would ever have come about. How would you roleplay that?
JamesMaissen 04-27-07, 02:51 PM	/me scratches my head, wondering how such a character would ever have come about. How would you roleplay that? Go with Baklunish background (if not race), something like following Xan Yae. More importantly is that mechanically to play it up will be VERY rough. At 6th level you have a wizard BAB, cleric hps, and likely near useless spells (as your stats will be spread and the beguiler level 1 list is not all that impressive). You would have only moderate skills after suffering through Fighter levels, mostly from your 1st level. I think it just is trying to juggle too much here. It suffers being too late of a late bloomer imho. Though it's entertaining for trying to make use of beguiler to multiclass as well as use dragon disciple whch always seems to have more takers than decent builds. -James
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 03:37 PM	Go with Baklunish background (if not race), something like following Xan Yae. More importantly is that mechanically to play it up will be VERY rough. At 6th level you have a wizard BAB, cleric hps, and likely near useless spells (as your stats will be spread and the beguiler level 1 list is not all that impressive). You would have only moderate skills after suffering through Fighter levels, mostly from your 1st level.s I think you're looking at the build in the wrong way - unlike a typical Dragon Disciple build, it can also afford to have a decent Int without sacrificing the physical stats. And it can just blow off Wisdom/Charisma for a decent Strength. I don't think that this 6 level build would be hard to play at all - and once 7th level comes along, it gets reasonably dangerous with so many trip and grapple attempts: Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Beguiler 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2: Fighter 1: Power Attack 3: Fighter 2: Deady Defense, Practiced Spellcaster(useful for Mage Armor, could be something else initially that gets retrained, such as Combat Reflexes) 4: Monk 1: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike 5: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Acrobat(does require 2 points of cc'ing) 7: Dragon Disciple 2 Improved Trip with the extra DD strength and Combat Acrobat to ensure you can't be tripped back means you do all Trip attacks with 2 points put into Combat Expertise. (edit: to be clear - I don't regard this as a powerhouse build - I just think it won't have as rough of a time of it as James thinks)
bitznarf 04-27-07, 03:39 PM	I think you're looking at the build in the wrong way - unlike a typical Dragon Disciple build, it can also afford to have a decent Int without sacrificing the physical stats. And it can just blow off Wisdom/Charisma for a decent Strength. I don't think that this 6 level build would be hard to play at all - and once 7th level comes along, it gets reasonably dangerous with so many trip and grapple attempts: Human Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Beguiler 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2: Fighter 1: Power Attack 3: Fighter 2: Deady Defense, Practiced Spellcaster(useful for Mage Armor, could be something else initially that gets retrained, such as Combat Reflexes) 4: Monk 1: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike 5: Monk 2: Combat Reflexes 6: Dragon Disciple 1: Combat Acrobat(does require 2 points of cc'ing) 7: Dragon Disciple 2 Improved Trip with the extra DD strength and Combat Acrobat to ensure you can't be tripped back means you do all Trip attacks with 2 points put into Combat Expertise. Why do you want mage armor? A beguiler can cast in light armor without a problem.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 03:52 PM	Why do you want mage armor? A beguiler can cast in light armor without a problem. Monk Flurry - yes, it sounds like it should have a truly horrid to-hit chance, but the point is to generate a lot of touch attacks that then translate into damage. And once you get 2nd level spells, it gets more valuable.
JamesMaissen 04-28-07, 10:04 PM	Monk Flurry - yes, it sounds like it should have a truly horrid to-hit chance, but the point is to generate a lot of touch attacks that then translate into damage. And once you get 2nd level spells, it gets more valuable. First I understand it's not a power build but rather a cute/interesting one. And it is an interesting use of Beguiler/Dragon Disciple. But I do think that it's a very slow build up to being mediocre and that's due to trying to overload too many things to the mix. For example on the 2nd level spells you mean when it gets them at 13th level? You'll have all kinds of 1st level slots (bonus from DD) but only a few 2nd level ones (ie 4). And while I understand the idea is to flurry, at that point you are talking having an AC 16 (18 with Expertiese listed earlier) making attacks at +4 (or +2 with expertiese). And this is at 6th level. You're only possibly hitting with touch attacks and even then you're missing a goodly amount to get that +7 (trip) or +10 (grapple) check to achieve anything from it. Yeah it'll succeed a reasonable amount of the time but not enough to merit Monk-like hps doing so. Compare it to an iconic Monk6 with a 14 Wis instead of Int and you'll see what I mean. For starters, that's like +6 vs +2 to hit, not to mention better movement, damage, AC and Ki Strike. The saves total the same (though +3 FORT vs +2 REF and +1 WILL is probably weaker what with Evasion) which for a mutt is a very bad sign. The hps are near the same enough to be equivalent. The AC is not dependant on attacking/flatfooted unlike the CE. Now the Monk6 does loose alot of skills (8 skill points after 1st and 20 skill points at 1st) including trapfinding (where argueably 18 or those skill points are going) in comparison. For that comparison's sake a 12 WIS/10 INT would give the same AC, WILL saves and roughly the same skill points after the traps skills (though not as optimal a choice it still compares favorably). Now the hitroll is the biggest hit there as even in the tripping and grappling (where the later is slightly better with Monk6) you're missing with the Beg build twice as often against a flat AC 10 touch. The loss of hitroll only gets worse as ACs get higher. That's what I mean by painful levels. It looks bad even subiconic. Contributing meaningfully will be hard. But it is interesting to see a build try to use spontaneous INT for Dragon Disciple, and multiclassing Beguiler is always rough to try to achieve. -James
Mommy was an Orc 04-29-07, 12:51 AM	And while I understand the idea is to flurry, at that point you are talking having an AC 16 (18 with Expertiese listed earlier) making attacks at +4 (or +2 with expertiese). And this is at 6th level. You're only possibly hitting with touch attacks and even then you're missing a goodly amount to get that +7 (trip) or +10 (grapple) check to achieve anything from it. Yeah it'll succeed a reasonable amount of the time but not enough to merit Monk-like hps doing so. The point of flurrying is when he's got the Dragon Disciple bonus to strength kicking in and the extra 3 attacks. Yes, 6th level is a weak level, but before that, he's using a Guisarme all the time - even after that, he's still carrying one, looking for AoOs on the first couple of rounds.