Weird Charge Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Weird Charge Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mommy was an Orc
02-03-07, 09:47 AM Anyway, I was thinking about low BAB builds that start a fullBAB PrC as early as possible, and I came up with this strange one. At 9th/10th level, it transitions from a odd/tough fighter build into a very powerful charge build.

Unlike the usual pounce and destroy builds, this one focuses on making the opponent incapable of striking back - at 9th level, he waits to activate Rage/Frenzy until he's right on top of his opponent - he then chooses to demoralize his target, following it up with the Wildrunner scream.

Except here's where it gets a little weird - he can scream likely 7 times a day at that point, so on the 1st combat, he screams 3 times, and then 2 on the 2nd. It is a free action, so he forces his target to make 3 Will Saves or be shaken.

As the target is likely already shaken from the Intimidating Rage(and therefore with a -2 to saves), they'll get panicked from that. And then won't be able to swing back at him. At level 10, he'll be able to Pounce when he does that from Wildrunner.

Wood Elf
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15
1: Scout 1: Endurance
2: Fighter 1: Power Attack
3: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage
4: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush: Cha 16
5: Marshal 1: Skill Focus(Diplomacy): Motivate Dexterity
6: Wildrunner 1: Intimidating Rage
7: Wildrunner 2
8: Wildrunner 3: Cha 17
9: Wildrunner 4: Shock Trooper
10: Wildrunner 5
11: Wildrunner 6
12: Wildrunner 7: Cha 18: Combat Acrobat
13: Wildrunner 8
14: Wildrunner 9
15: Wildrunner 10: ?

Thoughts?
JamesMaissen
02-03-07, 10:44 PM Wood Elf
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15

Thoughts?

I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you?

After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things?

A smaller question would be to taste, would get you more use out of Skill focus diplomacy from 1st-4th over Endurance?

-James
bhale187
02-03-07, 11:01 PM I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you?

After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things?

A smaller question would be to taste, would get you more use out of Skill focus diplomacy from 1st-4th over Endurance?

-James

without having taken the time to do the math, I'd guess Scout is needed at Level 1 to get enough skill points for wildrunner considering the 8 int
Mommy was an Orc
02-04-07, 09:52 AM I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you?

After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things?

Yes, need that +1 skill point - he's keeping Intimidate, Hide, Move Silently up once he hits Wildrunner for the HiPS.

What I'm getting out of Wildrunner is several things:
HiPS
Fast Healing 5 when doing Frenzy
A little DR

Most important though is that the save or be shaken save is 10+Cha Mod+Wildrunner level - at 15th level, that DC will be 5 higher as a result of taking the levels in it. If I have a +6 Cloak at that point, that's a DC 27 save, effectively 29 if the target has been demoralized. With a 24 Charisma, I can do it 10 times a day - everyone within 30' of him has to make 3-4 DC 27 saves or be shaken at that point in a combat.

I don't have my books with me, but I'm not entirely certain that it says it can't stack. At which point, there goes the whole ballgame for opponents unless they have more hit dice than I do. Ki Shout looks very interesting at 12th for that reason - move up to the opponents, Demoralize, Ki Shout, and then Frenzy(which will stack) - that will blow up a lot of encounters as all the flunkies panic.
jstorrie
02-04-07, 01:46 PM Ki Shout is not going to be that great at high APLs, given how many encounters will have advanced-HD foes.
Mommy was an Orc
02-04-07, 02:40 PM Ki Shout is not going to be that great at high APLs, given how many encounters will have advanced-HD foes.

That's only partially true - if the encounter involves an advanced-HD foe, sure, it isn't that great. But if there's flunkies or the encounter is involving a high CR/low HD creature, they're going to be destroyed. If my character can destroy one EL+3 encounter per mod by himself, I think I've done my job :) - remember, at high APLs, I'm also quite capable of doing a full power attack charge with probably 5 attacks.

It really depends on how they define the specifics of Wildrunner's frenzy and whether or not it stacks with itself. I was thinking I'd just do the Intimidating Rage+Frenzy, but then I realized today there were possibly additional options involving Ki Focus or multiple free action frenzies depending on how they were defined.
LachlarlanIII
02-06-07, 09:55 AM You could try working in Drunken Master or similar for the tumbling charge ability.

If this build is designed to charge, then you need a back-up way to do so when your friends get in the way.
Mommy was an Orc
02-06-07, 10:21 AM You could try working in Drunken Master or similar for the tumbling charge ability.

If this build is designed to charge, then you need a back-up way to do so when your friends get in the way.

No way. 2 levels of not Wildrunner is painful to the build. I know it might sound crazy, but doing a couple of hundred points of damage on a charge is not the most broken thing in this build - it is the ability to make opponents with less hit dice than him and not immune to fear pretty much auto-panicked for up to 10 rounds. Remember, they panic and flee him - meaning he gets to charge again.

Fear effects are cumulative. He has at 9th level a likely intimidate score of +17 and his DC for the scream is DC 19. He'll have likely 8 uses per day, so at that point, he demoralizes his target, then does in essence 3 DC 21 screams - if the guy fails more than one of those saves, he's panicked. If anyone nearby fails 3 of those saves, they're panicked also. Missing the first save, puts that target up to DC 21.

Unlike Devils, his 'aura' is 30' in radius and successfully saving against it doesn't stop him from doing it again in the same round. Friends are also immune to it.

And the really scary thing about the ability is that it keeps getting stronger and stronger as he gets more levels.
Alpha_Nerd
02-06-07, 10:52 AM So, if you are unable to charge an opponent I assume you move up to them, demoralize/panic them, and take your one attack hoping next round to charge them? Your 12th and 15th feats could be imp sunder and combat brute just to add insult to injury.
Mommy was an Orc
02-06-07, 12:12 PM So, if you are unable to charge an opponent I assume you move up to them, demoralize/panic them, and take your one attack hoping next round to charge them? Your 12th and 15th feats could be imp sunder and combat brute just to add insult to injury.

Something like that - Wildrunner 7(I think) makes you immune to most terrain issues, so charging is often easier than it looks.
Alpha_Nerd
02-06-07, 01:28 PM You also might want to look into making your jump. I know leap attack isn't allowed, but if you can jump over your allies then you're golden.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 02-03-07, 09:47 AM	Anyway, I was thinking about low BAB builds that start a fullBAB PrC as early as possible, and I came up with this strange one. At 9th/10th level, it transitions from a odd/tough fighter build into a very powerful charge build. Unlike the usual pounce and destroy builds, this one focuses on making the opponent incapable of striking back - at 9th level, he waits to activate Rage/Frenzy until he's right on top of his opponent - he then chooses to demoralize his target, following it up with the Wildrunner scream. Except here's where it gets a little weird - he can scream likely 7 times a day at that point, so on the 1st combat, he screams 3 times, and then 2 on the 2nd. It is a free action, so he forces his target to make 3 Will Saves or be shaken. As the target is likely already shaken from the Intimidating Rage(and therefore with a -2 to saves), they'll get panicked from that. And then won't be able to swing back at him. At level 10, he'll be able to Pounce when he does that from Wildrunner. Wood Elf Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15 1: Scout 1: Endurance 2: Fighter 1: Power Attack 3: Barbarian 1: Extra Rage 4: Fighter 2: Improved Bullrush: Cha 16 5: Marshal 1: Skill Focus(Diplomacy): Motivate Dexterity 6: Wildrunner 1: Intimidating Rage 7: Wildrunner 2 8: Wildrunner 3: Cha 17 9: Wildrunner 4: Shock Trooper 10: Wildrunner 5 11: Wildrunner 6 12: Wildrunner 7: Cha 18: Combat Acrobat 13: Wildrunner 8 14: Wildrunner 9 15: Wildrunner 10: ? Thoughts?
JamesMaissen 02-03-07, 10:44 PM	Wood Elf Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 15 Thoughts? I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you? After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things? A smaller question would be to taste, would get you more use out of Skill focus diplomacy from 1st-4th over Endurance? -James
bhale187 02-03-07, 11:01 PM	I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you? After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things? A smaller question would be to taste, would get you more use out of Skill focus diplomacy from 1st-4th over Endurance? -James without having taken the time to do the math, I'd guess Scout is needed at Level 1 to get enough skill points for wildrunner considering the 8 int
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 09:52 AM	I'm assuming that you need the +1 skill/level that dropping 2 points into Int is giving you? After Pounce, what are you getting out of Wildrunner? Is there something after 10th that's more worthwhile for you to take? I know there are atleast some limited PrCs out there that could work. What is the possibility of getting special missions/metaorg access to things? Yes, need that +1 skill point - he's keeping Intimidate, Hide, Move Silently up once he hits Wildrunner for the HiPS. What I'm getting out of Wildrunner is several things: HiPS Fast Healing 5 when doing Frenzy A little DR Most important though is that the save or be shaken save is 10+Cha Mod+Wildrunner level - at 15th level, that DC will be 5 higher as a result of taking the levels in it. If I have a +6 Cloak at that point, that's a DC 27 save, effectively 29 if the target has been demoralized. With a 24 Charisma, I can do it 10 times a day - everyone within 30' of him has to make 3-4 DC 27 saves or be shaken at that point in a combat. I don't have my books with me, but I'm not entirely certain that it says it can't stack. At which point, there goes the whole ballgame for opponents unless they have more hit dice than I do. Ki Shout looks very interesting at 12th for that reason - move up to the opponents, Demoralize, Ki Shout, and then Frenzy(which will stack) - that will blow up a lot of encounters as all the flunkies panic.
jstorrie 02-04-07, 01:46 PM	Ki Shout is not going to be that great at high APLs, given how many encounters will have advanced-HD foes.
Mommy was an Orc 02-04-07, 02:40 PM	Ki Shout is not going to be that great at high APLs, given how many encounters will have advanced-HD foes. That's only partially true - if the encounter involves an advanced-HD foe, sure, it isn't that great. But if there's flunkies or the encounter is involving a high CR/low HD creature, they're going to be destroyed. If my character can destroy one EL+3 encounter per mod by himself, I think I've done my job :) - remember, at high APLs, I'm also quite capable of doing a full power attack charge with probably 5 attacks. It really depends on how they define the specifics of Wildrunner's frenzy and whether or not it stacks with itself. I was thinking I'd just do the Intimidating Rage+Frenzy, but then I realized today there were possibly additional options involving Ki Focus or multiple free action frenzies depending on how they were defined.
LachlarlanIII 02-06-07, 09:55 AM	You could try working in Drunken Master or similar for the tumbling charge ability. If this build is designed to charge, then you need a back-up way to do so when your friends get in the way.
Mommy was an Orc 02-06-07, 10:21 AM	You could try working in Drunken Master or similar for the tumbling charge ability. If this build is designed to charge, then you need a back-up way to do so when your friends get in the way. No way. 2 levels of not Wildrunner is painful to the build. I know it might sound crazy, but doing a couple of hundred points of damage on a charge is not the most broken thing in this build - it is the ability to make opponents with less hit dice than him and not immune to fear pretty much auto-panicked for up to 10 rounds. Remember, they panic and flee him - meaning he gets to charge again. Fear effects are cumulative. He has at 9th level a likely intimidate score of +17 and his DC for the scream is DC 19. He'll have likely 8 uses per day, so at that point, he demoralizes his target, then does in essence 3 DC 21 screams - if the guy fails more than one of those saves, he's panicked. If anyone nearby fails 3 of those saves, they're panicked also. Missing the first save, puts that target up to DC 21. Unlike Devils, his 'aura' is 30' in radius and successfully saving against it doesn't stop him from doing it again in the same round. Friends are also immune to it. And the really scary thing about the ability is that it keeps getting stronger and stronger as he gets more levels.
Alpha_Nerd 02-06-07, 10:52 AM	So, if you are unable to charge an opponent I assume you move up to them, demoralize/panic them, and take your one attack hoping next round to charge them? Your 12th and 15th feats could be imp sunder and combat brute just to add insult to injury.
Mommy was an Orc 02-06-07, 12:12 PM	So, if you are unable to charge an opponent I assume you move up to them, demoralize/panic them, and take your one attack hoping next round to charge them? Your 12th and 15th feats could be imp sunder and combat brute just to add insult to injury. Something like that - Wildrunner 7(I think) makes you immune to most terrain issues, so charging is often easier than it looks.
Alpha_Nerd 02-06-07, 01:28 PM	You also might want to look into making your jump. I know leap attack isn't allowed, but if you can jump over your allies then you're golden.