Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EberronMoses 11-02-06, 01:05 AM	Which 5 spells are the most useful to take at first level as a wizard?
Puggle Halfwine 11-02-06, 01:54 AM	#1: Colour Spray (it's broken at low levels) #2: Magic Missile (it always works) #3: Ray of Enfeeblement (screws anything, pretty much) #4: Mage Armour (keeps you alive) #5: Disguise Self (useful for getting past guards, etc)
Maesto 11-02-06, 02:21 AM	I'll add enlarge person to that list. It's useful for all levels for increasing damage output and granting reach. Cheerio, J
Lomiat 11-02-06, 02:44 AM	Of course, wizard spell selection depends entirely upon what type of wizard you are, but some of the best low-level spells include: 1) Color Spray 2) Sleep 3) Grease 4) Enlarge Person 5) Comprehend Languages Note, I left out Magic Missile. 1st level wizards have, at most, 4 first level spells (gray elf specialist with a 20 INT). Those wizards that try to turn their 4 slots into damage, as though they were going to make an attack each round--well, they're not likely to prove too effective. At low levels, fighters do pretty much all the damage. Clerics deal with undead (same as every) if they can't be bashed or sliced to death, and wizards should find a way to turn the tide of the battle and to offer the party significant aid toward the adventure's ultimate goal (which is where Comprehend Languages might come in handy). Magic Missile, at a mere 1d4+1, isn't worth the spell slot 75% of the time. When a wizard has the power (Color Spray, Sleep) to simply END a battle (provided the monster fails a save), plinking away with insignificant damage is a poor use of a spell. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good spell. I took it off the list because I've rarely fought single opponents at low APLs, and the more you have spells that focus only on single targets, the less effective a wizard is likely to be.
clik_ml 11-02-06, 08:09 AM	I totally agree with Lomiat's list. The only change I might make is swapping grease and enlarge person, with the context of this being a 1st level wizard and grease lasting only 1 round then. The absolute only reason to consider starting with magic missile as a spell known is if you intend to scribe tons of scrolls of it to fire them off when the more useful spells aren't applicable (say, critters immune to sleep and color spray, and enlarge already got used that day).
Sieylianna 11-02-06, 08:14 AM	One thing you need to keep in mind is that both sleep and enlarge person take a full round to cast, so you probably want to memorize one or the other. Ed
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:39 PM	add charm person to the list.
DeimosGandymede 11-08-06, 11:23 PM	In no particular Order: Mage Armor/Shield Burning Hands Sleep Magic Weapon True Strike NEVER underestimate True Strike. +20 to hit is really good. Especially low level when the Warrior on the front line NEEDS to hit. For the most part, Wizards should be supportive early on. I chose Burning Hands over Magic Missile because while the damage is little, the area is what is really nice. If you can hit more than one creature with a spell, especially early on, it helps a lot. No one has bothered to answer your Feat Questions...so...in no particular order: Combat Casting There ya go. Easily a top choice. ESPECIALLY early on, when you may find that the front liners can't always keep the baddies away from you. You have to be able to get those spells off. Not to mention it always helps later on, because getting your spells off or not is the difference between a good Wizard, and a dead one. Spell Focus (Specific School) is ok, especially if you need them for a particular prestige class. The other thing to think about is metamagic early on. Since Wizards are far superior late game, you have to play for the upper levels with casters. Picking up Empower Spell or something NOW may seem stupid, because not only can you not use it, but it makes you "less effective" early on. However, biting the bullet and simply saying, hey, the first 6 or 7 adventures, I am going to be a groupie of sorts is far better than trying to scrap for things that help now, but are trivial later, when your group is relying on you to stop 12 guys at once in the higher levels. There are always things like Skillfocus: Choose a Knowledge or Spellcraft. /shrug Some Wizards like Improved Initiative. I am alright with not going first usually. A good caster doesn't really care. They can handle the situation regardless. -MW-
Lomiat 11-09-06, 12:06 AM	True Strike is "self only." A caster can't buff an ally with it. Combat Casting is--by far--one of the worst feats for any characters, much less a feat-starved class, such as an arcanist. Skill Focus (Concentration) is better, considering that you can get the +3 bonus to Concentration for ALL checks, rather than only to cast defensively. Improved Initiative is a great feat for a caster who intends to buff party members and/or manipulate the tactical aspects of battles (battlefield control). The idea is to go first and, thus, to use your spells to buff your friends or hinder your opponents before the battle breaks down into chaos (and it becomes harder to draw clear lines on the battlefield). Magic Weapon is a very good spell to know at 1st level (perhaps from a scroll by your 2nd AR), but it's not one I'd have my caster prepare on a daily basis. A scroll of it is just as good (there's no save DC to affect, etc.). Also very good on a scroll: Obscuring Mist.
Lupo 11-09-06, 03:35 AM	#1: Colour Spray (it's broken at low levels) #2: Magic Missile (it always works) #3: Ray of Enfeeblement (screws anything, pretty much) #4: Mage Armour (keeps you alive) #5: Disguise Self (useful for getting past guards, etc) "sunstroke" if your wizard is a bright sands character, 2d6 nonlethal is just fine at APLs 2 to 6 without any attack roll. it is still usefull on later levels if you want to make sure NOT TO KILL SOMEONE (unless your friendly fronliner does hit the creature/foe just into the zillion negatives). ciao martin m.
DeimosGandymede 11-09-06, 02:40 PM	True Strike is "self only." A caster can't buff an ally with it. Combat Casting is--by far--one of the worst feats for any characters, much less a feat-starved class, such as an arcanist. Skill Focus (Concentration) is better, considering that you can get the +3 bonus to Concentration for ALL checks, rather than only to cast defensively. Thats what I get for misreading True Strike. I disagree with CC though. Most of the time, when you need to make a Concentration check, you should be casting defensively anyways. Not to mention you can always declare you are attacking defensively if need be. You don't know if there is an archer behind a tree waiting for you to cast a spell after all. Not to mention it works if you are grappled or pinned. -MW-
TallGuy 11-09-06, 03:56 PM	Thats what I get for misreading True Strike. I disagree with CC though. Most of the time, when you need to make a Concentration check, you should be casting defensively anyways. Not to mention you can always declare you are attacking defensively if need be. You don't know if there is an archer behind a tree waiting for you to cast a spell after all. Not to mention it works if you are grappled or pinned. Except it does nothing when that archer hits you on a readied action, does damage, and you need to make a concentration check to avoid loosing your spell. It only works on the check to avoid the attack of opportunity. I'd rather have that +3 any time, thank you very much. Bas Vermeulen Player of Valenthe, Wizard type 12 with Steady Spellcaster, for that take 10 any time... ;)
Lomiat 11-09-06, 06:37 PM	Compare: Combat Casting = +4 to Concentration ... but only when casting defensively to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. Skill Focus (concentration) = +3 to Concentration ... at all times. This works not only for casting defensively, but while casting on an unsteady vessel at sea, while in gale force winds, while grappled, etc. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting = +5 to Concentration ... at all times. Cost? 2,500 gp. What does this tell me (among other things)? "Combat Casting" is worth LESS THAN 2,500 gp. Well, let's figure this one out. This means the feat is worth LESS THAN ONE USE of that other feat... Craft Wondrous Item. Consider 3 uses of metamagic; those would be the equivalent prices of Rods of Metamagic. Concentration is typically only an issue at the lower levels. By roughly APL 8, you'll make your Concentration checks >75% of the time. By APL 12, you won't fail. This assumes a normal CON (14 or 12 for elves) and a +2 or +4 Amulet of Health. Meanwhile, at the lower levels, you are less likely to be backed into corners by creatures with reach, and, thus, you are more likely to be able to 5-ft step and cast. And if tactics fail to allow you to cast, you're probably playing a low-INT, low-WIS sorcerer, and you have other issues...
SgtHulka 11-09-06, 07:49 PM	I like True Strike, too. At low levels a True Striked heavy crossbow bolt does better average damage than a magic missile. At mid levels True Strike is nice to have in your pocket for Ray or Orb spells that you feel like you must hit now. True Strike + an Orb spell is a nice way to be consistently effective against spell resistant critters. At all levels True Strike is excellent against invisible creatures or when walking around in a mist. True Strike is fun to have in your pocket when you want to try something fancy, like disarming someone. True Strike makes excellent scroll-bait since it doesn't involve a saving throw, and there's no advantage to casting it at higher than caster level 1. Generally, True Strike and Magic Missile tend to fill the same niche. Once you hit level 3 Magic Missile tends to do better raw damage, but True Strike is still handy for its synergy with other, more damaging spells, and for unique situations like spell resistance or concealment. That said, I've watched MANY castings of True Strike where the caster ended up rolling a natural "1".:eek:
_m_ 11-09-06, 10:10 PM	Compare: Combat Casting = +4 to Concentration ... but only when casting defensively to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. Skill Focus (concentration) = +3 to Concentration ... at all times. This works not only for casting defensively, but while casting on an unsteady vessel at sea, while in gale force winds, while grappled, etc. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting = +5 to Concentration ... at all times. Cost? 2,500 gp. What does this tell me (among other things)? "Combat Casting" is worth LESS THAN 2,500 gp. Well, let's figure this one out. This means the feat is worth LESS THAN ONE USE of that other feat... Craft Wondrous Item. Consider 3 uses of metamagic; those would be the equivalent prices of Rods of Metamagic. Concentration is typically only an issue at the lower levels. By roughly APL 8, you'll make your Concentration checks >75% of the time. By APL 12, you won't fail. This assumes a normal CON (14 or 12 for elves) and a +2 or +4 Amulet of Health. Meanwhile, at the lower levels, you are less likely to be backed into corners by creatures with reach, and, thus, you are more likely to be able to 5-ft step and cast. And if tactics fail to allow you to cast, you're probably playing a low-INT, low-WIS sorcerer, and you have other issues... aye, but combat casting is the only one that is also a prereq for alot of stuff. still, without either of them, if you have a half decent con, you'll end up with enough concentration to not fail on a defensive cast regardless, so i consider it a bit of a gimpy feat unless you need it for a prc.
DeimosGandymede 11-10-06, 07:03 AM	Except it does nothing when that archer hits you on a readied action, does damage, and you need to make a concentration check to avoid loosing your spell. It only works on the check to avoid the attack of opportunity. I'd rather have that +3 any time, thank you very much. Bas Vermeulen Player of Valenthe, Wizard type 12 with Steady Spellcaster, for that take 10 any time... ;) The PHB says: "You may attempt to cast a spell while paying attention to threats and avoiding blows." Paying attention to threats would include that archer, unless I am misinterpreting that (which I might be). Generally, when a creature holds an action, they have to give an action they will react to. "I am holding my action until the Wizard begins casting." etc. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I have been to several cons now where I "casted defensively while some NPC held their action waiting for me to cast." If I am wrong, please let me know. I would hate to think I have been playing it wrong (along with others). -MW-
Lomiat 11-10-06, 07:08 AM	I believe you could choose to cast defensively whether you appeared to be threatened or not. This would allow you to avoid the attacks of opportunity from any invisible creatures that might threaten you at the time. However, it wouldn't prevent the archer from firing at you, and it still means that you risk losing the spell if you fail your Concentration check to cast on the defensive. I imagine, as a DM, I'd rule that if you cast defensively like that, I'd allow you the +4 to Concentration from Combat Casting if my archer took his readied action and fired, but that would mean you'd have to make 2 Concentration checks: 1 at DC 15 + spell level to cast defensively and 1 at DC 10 + damage + spell level to cast while hit.
TallGuy 11-10-06, 07:31 AM	The PHB says: "You may attempt to cast a spell while paying attention to threats and avoiding blows." Paying attention to threats would include that archer, unless I am misinterpreting that (which I might be). Generally, when a creature holds an action, they have to give an action they will react to. "I am holding my action until the Wizard begins casting." etc. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I have been to several cons now where I "casted defensively while some NPC held their action waiting for me to cast." If I am wrong, please let me know. I would hate to think I have been playing it wrong (along with others). -MW- Well, let's set the stage with an example: We have one wizard who doesn't do casting on the defensive. We have one fighter who is within 5' of the wizard, wielding a spiked chain. The fighter takes a ready action to attack the wizard when he starts casting. The wizard doesn't move (or takes a 5' step) and casts a spell. The fighter gets an AoO (for the wizard casting), and his ready action triggers, causing the wizard to be hit/attacked twice. Now if said wizard casts on the defensive, the spellcasting doesn't provoke an AoO, but the ready action still triggers. The same goes for an archer. He doesn't get an AoO anyways, so casting on the defensive is less necessary, but the ready action still triggers, as the wizard is casting. So yes, I believe you (and others) are playing it wrong. Bas Vermeulen
Lupo 11-10-06, 07:52 AM	The PHB says: "You may attempt to cast a spell while paying attention to threats and avoiding blows." Paying attention to threats would include that archer, unless I am misinterpreting that (which I might be). Generally, when a creature holds an action, they have to give an action they will react to. "I am holding my action until the Wizard begins casting." etc. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I have been to several cons now where I "casted defensively while some NPC held their action waiting for me to cast." If I am wrong, please let me know. I would hate to think I have been playing it wrong (along with others). -MW- from the PHB (p. 92): COMBAT CASTING [GENERAL] Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive (see Casting on the Defensive, page 140) or while you are grappling or pinned. from the PHB (p. 140): Casting on the Defensive: You may attempt to cast a spell while paying attention to threats and avoiding blows. In this case you are no more vulnerable to attack than you would be if you were just standing there, so casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to pull off. Failure means that you lose the spell. so it DOES NOT mention or indicates anything on concentration checks a caster has to perform for damage taken, and i wouldn't let a caster get this off. a ready action to disrupt a caster's spellcasting is something totally different from an AoO a foe gets for casting while threatened. ciao martin m.
Timlagor 11-10-06, 10:26 AM	Combat Casting Sucks. * +1 v Skill Focus is not even close to being worth considering as even marginally compensating for the narrow applicability * Skill Focus (Consentration) isn't a good choice anyway. * Both get swallowed by skill ranks very fast. * At low levels being close enough to get hit by an AoO is a very very bad idea. Your first priority should be getting away; cast afterwards. * Even if you do find yourself casting defensively in desperation (a situation another feat might have saved you from), CC is only an increase of 20% (absolute) in the probability of you succeeding. Only take it if you need it for a PrC.
Timlagor 11-10-06, 10:28 AM	Of course, wizard spell selection depends entirely upon what type of wizard you are, but some of the best low-level spells include: 1) Color Spray 2) Sleep 3) Grease 4) Enlarge Person 5) Comprehend Languages Note, I left out Magic Missile. 1st level wizards have, at most, 4 first level spells (gray elf specialist with a 20 INT). Those wizards that try to turn their 4 slots into damage, as though they were going to make an attack each round--well, they're not likely to prove too effective. At low levels, fighters do pretty much all the damage. Clerics deal with undead (same as every) if they can't be bashed or sliced to death, and wizards should find a way to turn the tide of the battle and to offer the party significant aid toward the adventure's ultimate goal (which is where Comprehend Languages might come in handy). Magic Missile, at a mere 1d4+1, isn't worth the spell slot 75% of the time. When a wizard has the power (Color Spray, Sleep) to simply END a battle (provided the monster fails a save), plinking away with insignificant damage is a poor use of a spell. Ray of Enfeeblement is a good spell. I took it off the list because I've rarely fought single opponents at low APLs, and the more you have spells that focus only on single targets, the less effective a wizard is likely to be. QFT. I would leave out the Comprehend languages from the prepared list though as it works just fine on a scroll (and can be bought in that form). I would take MM as a Spell known ..because I'd have 8 picks. Minor Image also deserves a mention.
Howie23 11-10-06, 03:25 PM	Combat Casting Sucks. I have a low level Wiz with Combat Casting. I don't really take a power gaming approach to my character creation, so I'm not going to defend it on those grounds. It is a reasonable choice for non-risk tolerant players and their PCs. It may not scale that well, but it also frees up skill points later that you would otherwise sink into Concentration. I also have a Cleric w/Combat Casting. Here the motivation was quite different..I expect to be in close proximity in order to help. Low Int also means few skill points to go around as well. Best choice...maybe not. It works well for some playing styles, though. David
_m_ 11-12-06, 07:53 AM	power gaming or not, with simple ranks and con, you will get an auto pass after a few levels anyway. there are better places to put your feat.
DeimosGandymede 11-13-06, 10:52 AM	power gaming or not, with simple ranks and con, you will get an auto pass after a few levels anyway. there are better places to put your feat. Simple ranks alone should not auto pass unless you have a god CON stat. If Skill Focus Con sucks, as does Combat Casting, then what should a Wizzy at Level 1 take? Spell Focus? Plus 1 to a DC? You can't craft anything yet either. (Outside of Scrolls of course). Don't forget, a couple posts ago makes an excellent point. Not everyone power games. I do the best I can with what I get, which is to be expected. However, I don't sit here and plan out 15 levels of stuff either. Where's the adventure in that? ;) -MW-
Japangirl 11-13-06, 01:49 PM	A metamagic feat at 1 is great, even if not terribly useful yet. Empower and Maximize are both good metamagic feats that will be useful at higher levels. Skill Focus (Concentration) isn't bad, and is far superior to Combat Casting since it applies all the time. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) has its uses as well. Point Blank Shot is good if you intend on shooting rays at people, so at 3 you can pick up Precise Shot (or take Point Blank and Precise at 1 if you are human). Honestly, look at the prestige classes available. If they have feat requirements, you can use your lvl 1 feat to get it out of the way early. And no, it doesn't have to be a powergaming PrC :P. If not, Spell Focus (pick a school) is never bad, especially if you are a specialist wizard and will always have a spell of X school memorized anyways.
Lupo 11-13-06, 03:45 PM	Simple ranks alone should not auto pass unless you have a god CON stat. If Skill Focus Con sucks, as does Combat Casting, then what should a Wizzy at Level 1 take? Spell Focus? Plus 1 to a DC? You can't craft anything yet either. (Outside of Scrolls of course). Don't forget, a couple posts ago makes an excellent point. Not everyone power games. I do the best I can with what I get, which is to be expected. However, I don't sit here and plan out 15 levels of stuff either. Where's the adventure in that? ;) -MW- point blank shot and precise shot. ok this is more for the ranged touch wizards, but it helps a lot when you want to bring your "ray of enfeeblement" to hit. and later your scorching rays. ciao martin m.
_m_ 11-13-06, 04:58 PM	A metamagic feat at 1 is great, even if not terribly useful yet. Empower and Maximize are both good metamagic feats that will be useful at higher levels. Skill Focus (Concentration) isn't bad, and is far superior to Combat Casting since it applies all the time. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) has its uses as well. Point Blank Shot is good if you intend on shooting rays at people, so at 3 you can pick up Precise Shot (or take Point Blank and Precise at 1 if you are human). Honestly, look at the prestige classes available. If they have feat requirements, you can use your lvl 1 feat to get it out of the way early. And no, it doesn't have to be a powergaming PrC :P. If not, Spell Focus (pick a school) is never bad, especially if you are a specialist wizard and will always have a spell of X school memorized anyways. for a wiz, extend isnt half bad. dont need to charge half as many mage armours n such.
Japangirl 11-13-06, 05:10 PM	True, but there are a zillion accesses to lesser rods of extend, and they cost 3k a pop. I'd go for those for the extended mage armors and endure elements and use a more offensive metamagic feat in a feat slot.
sbwilson 11-13-06, 05:21 PM	Perhaps Combat Casting isn't so bad in certain contexts, such as a fighter/wizard who is up on the front line and wants to throw a spell in someone's face. True, at the higher levels, a decent amount of Concentration skill points can make it obsolete, but you have to survive to those levels somehow...and this originally was for beginning characters. Of course, my knowledge of 3.5 is still fairly limited, so I may be WAY off base here.
_m_ 11-13-06, 05:25 PM	Perhaps Combat Casting isn't so bad in certain contexts, such as a fighter/wizard who is up on the front line and wants to throw a spell in someone's face. True, at the higher levels, a decent amount of Concentration skill points can make it obsolete, but you have to survive to those levels somehow...and this originally was for beginning characters. Of course, my knowledge of 3.5 is still fairly limited, so I may be WAY off base here. if you were a front line fighter wizard, you would have a high enough con score to compensate for not taking it.
Howie23 11-13-06, 06:05 PM	power gaming or not, with simple ranks and con, you will get an auto pass after a few levels anyway. I don't think anyone is defending either of these as the best possible feat selection. However, the statement above is just plain false unless you have a very specific view of what "a few levels" means. :) Casting a first level spell defensively without chance of error is a DC16. So, you need a Concentration +15 to auto pass it. A few ways to get an auto pass: 10th level w/simple ranks and Con: (Ranks +13, Con +2) 7th level w/Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +10, Con +2, Feat +3) 6th level w/combat casting: (Ranks +9, Con +2, Feat +4) 3rd level w/combat casting and Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +6, Con +2, Feats +7) Adjust per Constitution above 14 and Spell Level other than 1st as desired. David
Lomiat 11-13-06, 06:09 PM	Simple ranks alone should not auto pass unless you have a god CON stat. If Skill Focus Con sucks, as does Combat Casting, then what should a Wizzy at Level 1 take? Spell Focus? Plus 1 to a DC? You can't craft anything yet either. (Outside of Scrolls of course). -MW- Improved Initiative - Your spells work better when you go before you get knocked unconscious. Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion or Spellcraft) - Both come in handy for Prestige Classes later on and contribute to those skill checks nicely at the lower levels. Point Blank Shot - As someone else mentioned, if you're into firing rays, these are great feats. They're good for elves, too, who want to use a bow when their spell power starts running low. Great Fortitude / Lightning Reflexes / Iron Will - Wizard saves suck. These help. Anything else? Sure. It depends on your character concept. Are you planning to use Transmutation spells to make yourself a melee powerhouse? Maybe you want Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike or Combat Expertise. Are you going to be the mounted wizard who rides on the backs of flying beasts, flinging fireballs down on your hapless victims? Sounds like a build that requires Mounted Combat. There's a lot of room for diversity at 1st level, and Combat Casting is still the worst option for any character not headed toward a PrC that requires the feat.
_m_ 11-13-06, 06:19 PM	I don't think anyone is defending either of these as the best possible feat selection. However, the statement above is just plain false unless you have a very specific view of what "a few levels" means. :) Casting a first level spell defensively without chance of error is a DC16. So, you need a Concentration +15 to auto pass it. A few ways to get an auto pass: 10th level w/simple ranks and Con: (Ranks +13, Con +2) 7th level w/Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +10, Con +2, Feat +3) 6th level w/combat casting: (Ranks +9, Con +2, Feat +4) 3rd level w/combat casting and Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +6, Con +2, Feats +7) Adjust per Constitution above 14 and Spell Level other than 1st as desired. David there are other ways to get concentration up, including synergys, ar thingamagics, con boosters, that sort of thing. i wouldnt personally waste feats just so i can be more likely to defensively cast at low levels. yeah, so you might fail a few at level 3, but you also might have empower and maximise at level 9.
Frumpkis 11-13-06, 06:48 PM	there are other ways to get concentration up, including synergys, ar thingamagics, con boosters, that sort of thing. There aren't any skill synergies for Concentration (unless one of the newer splat books provides that option, but I don't know of any that do).
_m_ 11-13-06, 07:09 PM	There aren't any skill synergies for Concentration (unless one of the newer splat books provides that option, but I don't know of any that do). sorry, poorly worded. i didnt actually mean synergies per say... i meant misc bonuses. ie. i have +9 miscelaneous bonuses from other things / items / AR thingys. tack that on the ranks and 18 con, and auto pass everything. what im trying to get across is, you will end up with stupidly hi concentration anyway, dont waste a feat on it.
Lomiat 11-13-06, 08:29 PM	Casting a first level spell defensively without chance of error is a DC16. So, you need a Concentration +15 to auto pass it. A few ways to get an auto pass: 10th level w/simple ranks and Con: (Ranks +13, Con +2) 7th level w/Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +10, Con +2, Feat +3) 6th level w/combat casting: (Ranks +9, Con +2, Feat +4) 3rd level w/combat casting and Skill Focus (concentration): (Ranks +6, Con +2, Feats +7) 4th level w/simple ranks, 14 Con, Amulet of Health +2 (crafted, w/Craft Wondrous Item), and Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (crafted, w/CWI): (Ranks +7, Con +3, Item +5)
LGMoses 11-13-06, 09:34 PM	it really is fun to see how far off topic these posts can get:rofl:
solbergb 11-13-06, 09:37 PM	Well, let's set the stage with an example: We have one wizard who doesn't do casting on the defensive. We have one fighter who is within 5' of the wizard, wielding a spiked chain. The fighter takes a ready action to attack the wizard when he starts casting. The wizard doesn't move (or takes a 5' step) and casts a spell. The fighter gets an AoO (for the wizard casting), and his ready action triggers, causing the wizard to be hit/attacked twice. Or the smart wizard walks out of the 10' range, takes ONE AOO, and as long as it does not kill him (or trip him, which can be unfortunate) he can cast without having to make any concentration check at all, and also ruins the readied action because he was out of reach when he cast. It's a really bad idea to end a round next to a fighter. It is almost always worth sucking up an AOO to move out of his full attack range. This is also somewhat true for archers, who risk getting their bow disarmed or sundered even if the fighter type is unlikely to kill them outright. (the problem being that the movement AOO might result in a sundered or disarmed bow too...many archers buy some tumble, even crossclass) Getting back ontopic - what a baby wizard wants in his head is spells that aren't just as good on a 25gp scroll. Magic missile ray of enfeeble truestrike disguise self obscuring mist exp retreat unsee servant comp languages detect secret doors tenser disk magic weapon prot evil mage armor shield detect magic light dancing lights read magic prestidigitation mage hand shock grasp All of these spells are 100% as good on a scroll at level 1 as in your head. Enlarge person's increased casting time makes it a touch better in your head, unless you walk around clutching a scroll in your hand. But it can be ok on a scroll too (nothing wrong with the effect, just harder to cast in time to be useful) grease color spray sleep daze burning hands chill touch These spells are better in your head than on a scroll. (sleep has both awkward casting time AND a save DC).] As you level, some from the top list move to the bottom list, as level-dependent effects matter more and more.
solbergb 11-13-06, 09:47 PM	I like True Strike, too. At low levels a True Striked heavy crossbow bolt does better average damage than a magic missile. Yes and no. The magic missile goes off a round earlier, which can remove an enemy before it can hurt things more. Only in a drawn out or very long range fight can truestrike+heavy bow compete...and it can't compete with two magic missiles (doing 7 damage on average, vs 5.5) which could have been cast at the same time. Which is why I like a few magic missile scrolls in the baby levels. You stop restocking htem around level 3. True strike DOES remain somewhat useful because of the whole cover+in melee +prone -4 to -12 to hit modifiers on your big range touch attacks and because it eliminates concealment miss chance. Guided shot is often a better answer...not as good, but it gets rid of 20% concealment, all cover short of total, all range mods (when used on non-rays) and can be done as a swift action instead of blowing a two rounds to get one spell or tanglefoot bag to land "for sure". I've made decent use of truestrike on some characters but it is telling that my sorceress had a wand for several levels and the only charge used on it was when I let an arcane trickster borrow it. You really have to have something pretty amazing to do with a high attack roll to be worth two whole rounds to get one attack off.
_m_ 11-13-06, 10:25 PM	also look into swift save-urself spells, like swift fly. or, if theres an arcane equivalent, flicker. (i dont know if there is tho)
Mommy was an Orc 11-14-06, 09:57 AM	I've made decent use of truestrike on some characters but it is telling that my sorceress had a wand for several levels and the only charge used on it was when I let an arcane trickster borrow it. You really have to have something pretty amazing to do with a high attack roll to be worth two whole rounds to get one attack off. True Strike can be extremely useful in certain situations - carry a whip, use True Strike, then move in and do a Disarm attack holding it two-handed. Even non-proficient and with a 6 Str, the 1st level Wizard is still going to have a +20 Disarm check(-2 Str, -4 Non-Proficient, +2 Whip, +20 True Strike, +4 Two-handed) An Ogre wielding a Great Club only has a +16...I'm not saying that a Wizard should be attacking an Ogre with a Disarm attack at 1st level for obvious reasons. But it can sometimes be a lot more effective than a Grease spell cast from a scroll.
solbergb 11-15-06, 03:28 PM	Yeh, but grease from a scroll sucks :) It's good only for grapple defense or, given the new FAQ ruling, as a temporary "make him flatfooted" measure. As a disarm tool, it has to be in your head, not on paper. And again...two rounds for a disarm plus you gotta move your wizzie into squishing distance. A +4 advantage vs an ogre on a disarm isn't a good recipie for survival...especially since he can just pick up the club, 5' step and hit you with it even if you do disarm him. I've seen trustrike disarms work ok, and a few other good uses, mostly involving defeating concealment. But some folks underestimate the opportunity cost of losing a whole round to it. In any event it is a "scroll" spell, since it works just as well at L1 as at L20 caster level, and as well fromt the scrolls as from the head of a 20 int grey elf wiz.
Iswald 11-16-06, 11:44 AM	4th level w/simple ranks, 14 Con, Amulet of Health +2 (crafted, w/Craft Wondrous Item), and Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (crafted, w/CWI): (Ranks +7, Con +3, Item +5) Some problems with this logic. You can't craft an amulet of health until 8th level, 10th if you haven't seen one. You're assuming that you've had access to the tunic when you may not have. Even if you can craft the tunic, do you have the slot free? Did you already take the vest of resistance option instead? For a low level cleric who has to be near combatants to cast healing spells, then combat casting isn't a bad feat to have. Some of the spells suggested on this thread have short ranges. Color spray (which is totally broken!) only has a range of 15', meaning that you may not be adjacent to your victims when you cast it, but you might be on your next turn. When you're stuck in this situation, you're better off if you can cast without provoking an AoO. When you only have a few spells, you can't afford to lose them by failing your skill check. You may be able to 5' step out of range but, it won't always work. Still, skill focus is a better choice since it will work in many more cases. Also, it continues to have some value when you are able to autosucceed on casting defensively. If you are looking for some other feat, pick any metamagic feat from the PHB. Some of the metamagic feats you may want to pick up at higher levels will require that you already have a metamagic feat and it's convenient to pick up one up at first level just to get it out of the way.
Britt 11-16-06, 03:53 PM	Which 5 spells are the most useful to take at first level as a wizard? As someone else said, this really depends on your character concept. I'd also add race. If you are making a grey elf with a 20 Int, I'd go for Spell Focus and some DC spells. Similarly, a gnome with Spell Focus (illusion) and an 18 int could be good (color spray). If you're making any other race with a 16 or 18 Int, DC spells start receding in usefulness. Definitely take spells that you will be casting a lot, not ones that you could have on scrolls for utility. If you are a Sandstorm wizard, take as many spells from that book as you can, as others will have PH spells covered; as mentioned, sunstroke is way broken. If you are going to have a decent Dex, consider the Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot combo with rays and orbs, as someone above mentioned. Out of the PH, for a standard 16/18 INT character, I would take some of these: shield mage armor magic missile enlarge person magic weapon (maybe better on a scroll) ray of enfeeblement (depending on your Dex and feat(s)) For the high INT character with spell focus, depending on your school: grease charm person burning hands color spray cause fear Mix and match to suit your concept.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:06 PM	charm person actually works fantastically well OUT of combat.
SgtHulka 11-21-06, 09:20 AM	Solbergb, I am shocked you aren't recommending Tenser's Floating Disk! Olivia (I hope I'm getting her name right) would be ashamed! This weekend a Warmage at my table filled a disk with green slime and dumped it over the bbeg. I thought of you.
solbergb 11-21-06, 12:57 PM	Tenser's disk isn't as useful at first level. The 100lb weight limit really restricts what it can do. Once PC's can ride on it, it's a lot more useful. I had it from level 1, but it was much more useful at L3.
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:03 PM	Tenser's disk isn't as useful at first level. The 100lb weight limit really restricts what it can do. Once PC's can ride on it, it's a lot more useful. I had it from level 1, but it was much more useful at L3. depends who you are. often my characters weigh quite a bit less than 100 lb.
clannagh 11-21-06, 06:42 PM	if you were a front line fighter wizard, you would have a high enough con score to compensate for not taking it. which is why gnome and dwarven wizards are often underestimated
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:45 PM	which is why gnome and dwarven wizards are often underestimated not me! gnome wizards ftW my friend. DWARVES however.... should be restricted to... never being seen in public... wow! that was off topic! but yeah, i rekon with a gnome or dwarf wiz, you can just about dump stat everything except int and con.
solbergb 11-21-06, 09:08 PM	Olivia's experience with dwarves is they're freaking heavy. THEY may only weigh 100-150 lb, but they're always toting 300lb of gear :) or so it seems. Gnomes and halflings yeah, she doesn't even usually bother to give them their own disc. They just ride along with somebody else, or she'll put 2-3 on one disk, sitting on the edge. Well...except when they're so annoying that other party members insists that she casts private discs for them...
_m_ 11-21-06, 10:14 PM	Olivia's experience with dwarves is they're freaking heavy. THEY may only weigh 100-150 lb, but they're always toting 300lb of gear :) or so it seems. Gnomes and halflings yeah, she doesn't even usually bother to give them their own disc. They just ride along with somebody else, or she'll put 2-3 on one disk, sitting on the edge. Well...except when they're so annoying that other party members insists that she casts private discs for them... and then they cruise around the library making starwars episode 1 podracing noises. THAT was fun :D
Newpaintbrush 11-25-06, 12:01 AM	What spells you take at 1st level depend on what you want to do with your character. Still, there are some things worth thinking about. 1/2. Sleep and Color Spray. This allows you to neutralize or mess with powerful creatures with a first level spell. 3. Magic Weapon. Because you're gonna run into something weird that needs a magic weapon to hit it. And you can't ALWAYS rely on burning oil. 4. True Strike or Grease. True Strike lets you hit with ranged touch attacks and rays and so forth. Grease lets you mess with your opponents in a few ways, which can be pretty handy. 5. Comprehend Languages or Ray of Enfeeblement. Sometimes, you just need to know what something says, and your rogue doesn't have or won't pass Decipher Script. And sometimes, you just need to decrease the to-hit and damage of a big baddy. But honestly, I think Ray of Enfeeblement's better at higher levels. Honorable Mention: Silent Image: You're being chased, you duck into an alley, and cast a Silent Image of a wall covering the mouth of the alley. Yay. But in LG, that means you avoid the encounter, so don't get the items or experience. Boo. Or you could "summon shadow" with the spell - not a REAL shadow, but something that LOOKS like a shadow. Yay. But then the DM might just either say the opponents are really stupid so ignore the thing (Boo), or that they're really smart and use Spellcraft to identify your spell as an illusion so ignore the thing (Boo), or are moderately smart and attack you like crazy, hoping to disrupt your concentration (Boo for a 1st level caster). It really comes down to your DM. Spells maybe not to take: 1. Mage Armor. Problem for a low-level character is, you cast Mage Armor, then what? Sit back and plug away with your crossbow? Plus Mage Armor wears off pretty fast, especially if people in your party are addicted to "taking 20" on every action. Maybe it's just better to take cover first, then cast spells. But Mage Armor is pretty useful once you gain a few levels. REAL useful. 2. Summon Monster I. Duration's too short for a 1st level character. Later on, you can use this spell to flank opponents. But then again, later on, your opponents can swipe your weenie monsters once and they're gone. But then again, that's a swipe that wasn't directed at you or your buddies. It's hard to wrong with summoned creatures, really, if they last four or five rounds . . . 3. Charm Person. That -5 situational in combat hurts a lot. And your DM can classify a lot of out-of-combat castings as "evil", or can say that even an out-of-combat casting of a spell is "being threatening" so qualifies your opponent for the bonus. So how about asking your allies to just not draw their weapons until after you cast Charm Person, but maybe your allies aren't going to want to wait until after you take your turn, so they can be chopped into pieces, and your DM could say that your casting a spell is "threatening" anyways . . . 4. Magic Missile. It's a force-based effect that always hits. Very, very nice. BUT you only get one missile. Not so great. Probably wait for higher levels. Now, since you get 5 spells at 1st level only if you have a 14 or 15 int, I'm gonna guess that you're not going for directly damaging spells (because if you really wanted to beat up stuff, you'd go for a Int 20 Gray Elf that would increase the DC against your saves by +5). So you're probably going for a buffer of some sort, probably going for ranged touch attacks . . . In that case, I'd say - Magic Weapon Ray of Enfeeblement Magic Missile True Strike Orb of ( ), Lesser . . . Acid, Sound, Fire, Ice, etc. etc. There was that spell that does 2d6 subdual. Can't remember the details.
Gaelforcwynd 11-26-06, 01:45 PM	Simple ranks alone should not auto pass unless you have a god CON stat. If Skill Focus Con sucks, as does Combat Casting, then what should a Wizzy at Level 1 take? Spell Focus? Plus 1 to a DC? You can't craft anything yet either. (Outside of Scrolls of course). Don't forget, a couple posts ago makes an excellent point. Not everyone power games. I do the best I can with what I get, which is to be expected. However, I don't sit here and plan out 15 levels of stuff either. Where's the adventure in that? ;) -MW- That's an adventure in itself. :)
_m_ 11-26-06, 05:58 PM	jsut a quick thought on concentration and ranks alone not passing unless you have a good con score. of all the toons you can play, d4 hit dice no fort save per level classes seem to me to have the most reason of anyone to have high con. the only reason my wiz is still alive is his 18 con.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:05 PM	I have a grey elf wizard with a 14 Con (bought the 16) and it is marvelous! While I can't get the 18 base, I will be using my amulet slot for an amulet +4 as soon as I get the TUs to craft it after RHoD is over. Con for any d4 HD creature means you can double your HP per level and not be quite as one-shottable, not to mention being able to survive wraith attacks and such much better.
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:07 PM	I have a grey elf wizard with a 14 Con (bought the 16) and it is marvelous! While I can't get the 18 base, I will be using my amulet slot for an amulet +4 as soon as I get the TUs to craft it after RHoD is over. Con for any d4 HD creature means you can double your HP per level and not be quite as one-shottable, not to mention being able to survive wraith attacks and such much better. exactly my thoughts. +, not much is funnier than the dm looking sadly in your direction, saying, 'im sorry, i critted. you take 60. do you have any favours?" and i say "im not even unconcious yet :D"
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:10 PM	It is a very simple equation to be sure :). Con = HP = life = not paying 5k for a raise dead. Con = fort saves = not dying to massive damage or drowning as fast or dying to phantasmal killer or . . . well you get the picture.
clannagh 11-27-06, 01:47 AM	overall becasue your a wizzie its not a biggie .. if you stuff up it will cost almost nothing at 1st level to buy other spells its a much bigger issue for sorcerors who may even end up taking spells that will be useless for a few levels One thing to consider doing is to take all spells at first level with no somatic componenet so you can wear armor until level 2 or 3 and survive that scary first few levels for a wizzie .. it will limit you to things like featherfall and truestrike but to be honest the one or two 1st level offence spells you can cast a tlow levels are not going to effect the game much.
solbergb 11-27-06, 08:56 AM	The main reason not to take skill focus concentration or combat casting is that whether or not you cast the spell at point blank range in low levels, you will eventually die if you make it a regular process to cast spells within 5' of the enemy. Distance is your best defense, and if you are where you should be (which is out of move+attack range, with someone else blocking charge lane and if they have ranged attacks, behind cover and perhaps prone...but only prone if you don't need to move next round), then you won't need concentration all that often (and if you do, you should also be considering a withdraw action) Just maxing ranks in concentration will quickly take care of things like riding a horse and casting. By the time you can cast defensively reliably you will be encountering foes with a lot of reach and also have far more defensive options, using spell slots that are no longer your top tier. The only time in 3.x that a caster of mine bothered with the concentration feats was my first illusionist, who was a 18 constitution character in a home campaign party where everyone else had a constitution modifier of +0 or -1 and the person who should have been the party tank also managed to roll "1"s repeatedly on her d10's. Around level 4 I had as many hitpoints as any two party members put together and was the party "tank" even without using any AC spells. I don't think there will be many LG parties where a 12 con grey elf wizard finds himself or herself in that role.
_m_ 11-27-06, 04:54 PM	I don't think there will be many LG parties where a 12 con grey elf wizard finds himself or herself in that role. perhaps not, but i often found myself and my familiar as the party tanks in alot of games. wiz ac is not something to be scoffed at.
Timlagor 12-04-06, 12:26 PM	... but to be honest the one or two 1st level offence spells you can cast a tlow levels are not going to effect the game much. That is just so wrong it's almost funny. Even without the 20 Int your spells will have a decent chance of ending combats: even a DC 11 save will be failed nearly 50% of the time by most opponents! I'm not claiming that you will always win every combat all by yourself but you can expect to do so occasionally and should expect to make a significant contribution with your spells.
clannagh 12-04-06, 05:57 PM	That is just so wrong it's almost funny. Even without the 20 Int your spells will have a decent chance of ending combats: even a DC 11 save will be failed nearly 50% of the time by most opponents! I'm not claiming that you will always win every combat all by yourself but you can expect to do so occasionally and should expect to make a significant contribution with your spells. I meant by offensive spells direct damage spells like ray of frost and low level magic missile. The spells that really have an effect on combat for low level casters are more often things like color spray, sleep, hold person, command (fall or flee) for clerics, cause fear. Even at level 2 spells like blindness are often more effective than damage spells. By level 3 this starts to change and scorching ray and fireball start to kick in. Even then a creative caster will often do better with less direct damage spells and more "funky" ones.
Japangirl 12-05-06, 08:30 PM	My best friend from level 3 onwards is Glitterdust. Not invisible and blind is the best way for an opponent to be.
_m_ 12-06-06, 05:18 PM	That is just so wrong it's almost funny. Even without the 20 Int your spells will have a decent chance of ending combats: even a DC 11 save will be failed nearly 50% of the time by most opponents! I'm not claiming that you will always win every combat all by yourself but you can expect to do so occasionally and should expect to make a significant contribution with your spells. lol dude thats a pretty big claim. all he was saying was that at level 1, 4 damage max from a magic missile is sumwhat VERY pathetic compared to 20+ from single hits from the melee hitters. later on the damage starts hiking up, but really, things like colour spray and charm > lvl 1 magic missile every time.
LGMoses 12-06-06, 10:35 PM	yeah. Magic missile at level one is like just asking the DM to remove one kobold from the first encounter you're suppossed to come across before hand. Pretty much. PING one kobold down, 9 to go.
_m_ 12-06-06, 11:40 PM	yeah. Magic missile at level one is like just asking the DM to remove one kobold from the first encounter you're suppossed to come across before hand. Pretty much. PING one kobold down, 9 to go. exactly. where is colourspray is more like "next encounter please"
Timlagor 12-09-06, 04:18 AM	ok clearly you have a different definition of "offensive". I certainly agree that direct damage spells are generally a weak strategy for Wizards.
Lord Yod 12-13-06, 01:29 PM	My primary wizard is an int 20 grey elf, so I decided to focus on spells with saves to abuse that 1st level DC 16. Good candidates: -Sleep: Full round casting is a pain, but the medium range is really good. I regularly ended fights on round 2 with this spell. Has secondary uses(put the guard at the door to sleep so you can walk in, etc) -Color Spray: Really, *really* good. At APL 2, if the baddies fail their save they are DONE. Retains usefulness at higher levels as well, since it stuns any creature that fails a save. (And stunned creatures drop their weapons) I got into trouble a few times, however, when I would move to use this spell. I would suggest using it only when you can back away afterwards. -Silent Image: Like someone else said, this depends entirely on the DM. If you have a regular one, you can get more mileage out of illusions than just about anything else. Especially if you memorize the rules on saving against them. (I suggest reading the web article series, perhaps even printing it out to bring with you) That being said, you should keep something in mind: You'll only have 3-4 'shots' to spend in a day, so they'd better be good ones. Single-target spells(like Ray of Enfeeblement) may be really good, but if you only prepped one and there are 5 guys in the fight... One thing to think about is what your party mix will be. Do you have a regular group of players that you sit down with? I regularly play with a couple of buddies, who between them have a grappling monk, two greatsword-powerattackers, a dual-wielding rogue, and an archer damage-monkey. All of these PC's can attack every round, and each of their attacks was pound-for-pound better than my damage output with my best spells. Enlarging one of those greatsword guys turns him into a 3d6+6-with-reach, before power attack, and it lasts for 10 rounds. Mage armor on the monk bumped his AC to 20, letting him run in and flurry his heart out. Either one did WAY more to effect a fight than a casting of Burning Hands or Magic Missile. If you can cast a spell and then back out of range and watch your minions take care of things, well, that's what being a wizard is all about. And it only gets better when you get Glitterdust. -Pete(whose grey elf really does refer to human party members as his 'minions' to NPCs)
_m_ 12-18-06, 05:30 PM	ok clearly you have a different definition of "offensive". I certainly agree that direct damage spells are generally a weak strategy for Wizards. often true, but i wouldnt build a wizard who, if required, couldn't do it. sometimes you just really really want your wizzie to send in an empowered sonic electric stuning prone forcing fireball.
solbergb 12-18-06, 06:44 PM	The important thing to understand about direct damage is that the wizard isn't expected to be the primary contributor. If doing direct damage, you're expected to either set them up (eg, fireball to soften up a couple cleave targets) or finish them off (use direct damage to change an enemy's state from wounded to dead). Reliability is a big deal with this damage. Often an ice storm is better than an empowered fireball, if the weakened enemies have evasion or fire resistance. magic missile can be better than maximized orb of XXX, because the extra damge is lost in overkill and the orb might miss. Indeed one of the big selling points of scorching ray is that not as much "rides" on a single attack roll from level 7 onwards. If the wizard is doing most of the damage, it usually means the party is weak and also that it will run out of steam really fast. Even sorcerers run dry if forced to do the lion share of the party direct damage and their opportunity cost for blasting away is lower (they don't have to lock up spell slots at dawn to get the opportunity, and retain their other options if they keep a top level slot open). Not having direct damage at all though is depriving yourself of the single most reliable way of removing an already damaged enemy from the battlefield. I'm less of a fan of "softening up" types of direct damage but I've seen that approahce used well too - direct damage stacks with what everyone else in the party is doing. Save/Die's may do nothing at all, or may be wasted on an already wounded target and battlefield control just buys time - your party needs to eventually kill the bad guy.
_m_ 12-18-06, 06:56 PM	The important thing to understand about direct damage is that the wizard isn't expected to be the primary contributor. If doing direct damage, you're expected to either set them up (eg, fireball to soften up a couple cleave targets) or finish them off (use direct damage to change an enemy's state from wounded to dead). Reliability is a big deal with this damage. Often an ice storm is better than an empowered fireball, if the weakened enemies have evasion or fire resistance. magic missile can be better than maximized orb of XXX, because the extra damge is lost in overkill and the orb might miss. Indeed one of the big selling points of scorching ray is that not as much "rides" on a single attack roll from level 7 onwards. If the wizard is doing most of the damage, it usually means the party is weak and also that it will run out of steam really fast. Even sorcerers run dry if forced to do the lion share of the party direct damage and their opportunity cost for blasting away is lower (they don't have to lock up spell slots at dawn to get the opportunity, and retain their other options if they keep a top level slot open). Not having direct damage at all though is depriving yourself of the single most reliable way of removing an already damaged enemy from the battlefield. I'm less of a fan of "softening up" types of direct damage but I've seen that approahce used well too - direct damage stacks with what everyone else in the party is doing. Save/Die's may do nothing at all, or may be wasted on an already wounded target and battlefield control just buys time - your party needs to eventually kill the bad guy. i greatly agree with you. the thinkg to keep in mind is that while save or die, or fireball, may do alot of damage: a fighter does alot of damage every hit, and she never gets tired of it. my wiz charges 1 fireball a day. 1 fireball < unlimited (ok limited to number of attacks per round x 6second bits of a day, but shush) attacks.