What flavor of summoning cheese? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What flavor of summoning cheese? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnduBois
02-17-07, 08:51 PM Hey all,
I'm faced with an interesting choice for my Favored Soul/Alienist.

I just got access to a million Frostburn Icy Cheese feats. Among these feats is Icy Calling, which does the following:

Prerequisites: Snowcasting, CON 13
In areas where the temperature is at or below 40 degrees F, cold subtype creatures (all of mine due to Beckon the Frozen) you summon gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity. In areas below -20 degrees F, your summoned creatures affected by this feat also have maximum hp.

This feat looks cool, but it has a couple problems:
1. It has the craptastic Snowcasting as a prereq (although I have access to this as well), and I wouldn't be able to take the cool feat until level 12.
2. I'd need to get access to a NONC spell to use the feat regularly.

Alternately (and this was the original plan), I was going to use Imbued Summoning and the Rapid Metamagic feat, which has the following problems:
1. Rapid Metamagic appears to be one of those feats that may become Closed at a later date.
2. Requires a higher-level spell to cast.

What would be the best choice for this PC?
Lomiat
02-17-07, 09:04 PM I looked at Imbued Summoning for my cleric, and it immediately raised the question: Can you Imbue a spell on multiple summoned creatures? The flavor texts says "your creatures," but the rules text says "creature." Neither specifies if the imbued spell affects only one creature or if it can affect multiple creatures. Since summoning spells are typically best used at higher levels to summon multiple creatures, it seems like a valid concern for someone about to make a summoner.

I'm not a fan, meanwhile, of both Imbued Summoning and Rapid Spell combined as they would bump the spell level by 2. That would make your hippogriff, for example, a 4th level slot. Hardly worth it.

However, if you take Metamagic Focus (or whatever it is) and remove 1 level adjustment 3/day, then the Imbued and Rapid summonings look better.

Eh... Sorry that's not a real answer, but I face a similar dilemma (that, and making use of my cleric's 16 CHA now that DMM is gone).
JohnduBois
02-17-07, 11:13 PM I'm not a fan, meanwhile, of both Imbued Summoning and Rapid Spell combined as they would bump the spell level by 2. That would make your hippogriff, for example, a 4th level slot. Hardly worth it.

I'm not looking the Rapid Spell feat; I'm looking at the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage, which makes spontaneously applying a metamagic feat not require extra time (which is huge for a spontaneous summoner, since spontaneous metamagic summons usually take 2 rounds to cast).

I was also looking into other good metamagic feats to apply to summons with Rapid Metamagic, but couldn't really find any.
Lomiat
02-19-07, 06:44 PM There's one in the Complete Mage that lets you warp in your summoned creatures in the middle of a nauseating black cloud (gives miss chance/obscures vision like obscuring mist--and your creatures are immune).
Jay_Ibero_911
02-19-07, 06:58 PM Ok, so here are the obvious summoning feats:
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Rapid Metamagic
Metamagic School Focus
Rapid Spell
Imbued Summoning
Cloudy Conjuration

On a side note, Icy Calling won't give you too much benefit if you already have augment summoning, because they both give the creatures enhancement bonuses. Even Imbued Summoning isn't all that good, with so few spells WORTH putting on your summoned creature. Aid is one of the only ones that seems worthwhile for the temp HP+bonus to attack. Basically with Rapid Metamagic, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, you can summon a creature on your standard action instead of taking a full round and potentially getting disrupted...Cloudy Conjuration is nice because it's automatic and free.
JohnduBois
02-19-07, 09:41 PM Ok, so here are the obvious summoning feats:
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Rapid Metamagic
Metamagic School Focus
Rapid Spell
Imbued Summoning
Cloudy Conjuration

On a side note, Icy Calling won't give you too much benefit if you already have augment summoning, because they both give the creatures enhancement bonuses. Even Imbued Summoning isn't all that good, with so few spells WORTH putting on your summoned creature. Aid is one of the only ones that seems worthwhile for the temp HP+bonus to attack. Basically with Rapid Metamagic, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, you can summon a creature on your standard action instead of taking a full round and potentially getting disrupted...Cloudy Conjuration is nice because it's automatic and free.

1. They're both enhancement bonuses... I hadn't noticed that on Augment Summoning... I guess that means my plans to Imbue bull's strength also won't work...
2. Rapid Spell doesn't really work for my PC, since the text of the feat doesn't allow it to be applied to spontaneously cast spells with a casting time of 1 full round (like many people, including myself, interpret the "1 round" casting time on summons to mean).
3. Cloudy Conjuration is very nice. If I go the Imbued Summoning route (which I probably will, now that I know about the enhancement bonus thing), that would be my 12th level feat.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-19-07, 10:31 PM 1. They're both enhancement bonuses... I hadn't noticed that on Augment Summoning... I guess that means my plans to Imbue bull's strength also won't work...
2. Rapid Spell doesn't really work for my PC, since the text of the feat doesn't allow it to be applied to spontaneously cast spells with a casting time of 1 full round (like many people, including myself, interpret the "1 round" casting time on summons to mean).
3. Cloudy Conjuration is very nice. If I go the Imbued Summoning route (which I probably will, now that I know about the enhancement bonus thing), that would be my 12th level feat.

I think you mis-read Rapid Spell. It specifically states "This feat CAN be applied to a spell cast spontaneously as long as the original casting time was longer than one full round" and summons, as 1 round casting times are longer than full round casting times. Full round=Standard+move action, 1 round=casting till start of next turn. The special note is basically just making it clear that the feat is worthless to spontaneous spells with full round or shorter casting time because the feat would reduce the casting time to a standard action, then increase to a full round action due to spontaneous application of metamagic. With Rapid Metamagic, that is no longer an issue.
JohnduBois
02-19-07, 10:48 PM I think you mis-read Rapid Spell. It specifically states "This feat CAN be applied to a spell cast spontaneously as long as the original casting time was longer than one full round" and summons, as 1 round casting times are longer than full round casting times. Full round=Standard+move action, 1 round=casting till start of next turn. The special note is basically just making it clear that the feat is worthless to spontaneous spells with full round or shorter casting time because the feat would reduce the casting time to a standard action, then increase to a full round action due to spontaneous application of metamagic. With Rapid Metamagic, that is no longer an issue.

This is where the table variation comes in. In the PHB, there is no such thing as a casting time of "1 full round" discussed, leaving it up to interpretation whether the feat is talking about spells that have a casting time of "1 full-round action", taking a standard + a move and taking effect during the caster's turn, or a casting time of "1 round", taking a standard + a move and taking effect at the beginning of the caster's next turn. Since, to my knowledge, there are no spells in D&D that have an original casting time of "1 full-round action", I believe that the feat was intended to refer to spells with a casting time of "1 round", and most of the Infinite Monkeys debates swung this way as well. Even if I felt that the feat intended "1 full-round action", I would avoid taking the Rapid Spell feat without errata or FAQ clarification, as the table variation could potentially remove a feat from a PC who is already feat-starved (since I had to take Well Read to qualify for my PrC).

I would also like to note that even if the feat did work the way you claim (and I'm not saying it doesn't for sure - there is definitely ambiguity there), a Rapid summon, with an original casting time of 1 round (longer that "1 full-round action" and presumably "measured in rounds", as the feat says), would require a full-round action to cast as opposed to a standard action (although the benefit of not having to wait through everyone else's turn to get the critter would be well worth it).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnduBois 02-17-07, 08:51 PM	Hey all, I'm faced with an interesting choice for my Favored Soul/Alienist. I just got access to a million Frostburn Icy Cheese feats. Among these feats is Icy Calling, which does the following: Prerequisites: Snowcasting, CON 13 In areas where the temperature is at or below 40 degrees F, cold subtype creatures (all of mine due to Beckon the Frozen) you summon gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity. In areas below -20 degrees F, your summoned creatures affected by this feat also have maximum hp. This feat looks cool, but it has a couple problems: 1. It has the craptastic Snowcasting as a prereq (although I have access to this as well), and I wouldn't be able to take the cool feat until level 12. 2. I'd need to get access to a NONC spell to use the feat regularly. Alternately (and this was the original plan), I was going to use Imbued Summoning and the Rapid Metamagic feat, which has the following problems: 1. Rapid Metamagic appears to be one of those feats that may become Closed at a later date. 2. Requires a higher-level spell to cast. What would be the best choice for this PC?
Lomiat 02-17-07, 09:04 PM	I looked at Imbued Summoning for my cleric, and it immediately raised the question: Can you Imbue a spell on multiple summoned creatures? The flavor texts says "your creatures," but the rules text says "creature." Neither specifies if the imbued spell affects only one creature or if it can affect multiple creatures. Since summoning spells are typically best used at higher levels to summon multiple creatures, it seems like a valid concern for someone about to make a summoner. I'm not a fan, meanwhile, of both Imbued Summoning and Rapid Spell combined as they would bump the spell level by 2. That would make your hippogriff, for example, a 4th level slot. Hardly worth it. However, if you take Metamagic Focus (or whatever it is) and remove 1 level adjustment 3/day, then the Imbued and Rapid summonings look better. Eh... Sorry that's not a real answer, but I face a similar dilemma (that, and making use of my cleric's 16 CHA now that DMM is gone).
JohnduBois 02-17-07, 11:13 PM	I'm not a fan, meanwhile, of both Imbued Summoning and Rapid Spell combined as they would bump the spell level by 2. That would make your hippogriff, for example, a 4th level slot. Hardly worth it. I'm not looking the Rapid Spell feat; I'm looking at the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Mage, which makes spontaneously applying a metamagic feat not require extra time (which is huge for a spontaneous summoner, since spontaneous metamagic summons usually take 2 rounds to cast). I was also looking into other good metamagic feats to apply to summons with Rapid Metamagic, but couldn't really find any.
Lomiat 02-19-07, 06:44 PM	There's one in the Complete Mage that lets you warp in your summoned creatures in the middle of a nauseating black cloud (gives miss chance/obscures vision like obscuring mist--and your creatures are immune).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-19-07, 06:58 PM	Ok, so here are the obvious summoning feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration) Augment Summoning Rapid Metamagic Metamagic School Focus Rapid Spell Imbued Summoning Cloudy Conjuration On a side note, Icy Calling won't give you too much benefit if you already have augment summoning, because they both give the creatures enhancement bonuses. Even Imbued Summoning isn't all that good, with so few spells WORTH putting on your summoned creature. Aid is one of the only ones that seems worthwhile for the temp HP+bonus to attack. Basically with Rapid Metamagic, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, you can summon a creature on your standard action instead of taking a full round and potentially getting disrupted...Cloudy Conjuration is nice because it's automatic and free.
JohnduBois 02-19-07, 09:41 PM	Ok, so here are the obvious summoning feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration) Augment Summoning Rapid Metamagic Metamagic School Focus Rapid Spell Imbued Summoning Cloudy Conjuration On a side note, Icy Calling won't give you too much benefit if you already have augment summoning, because they both give the creatures enhancement bonuses. Even Imbued Summoning isn't all that good, with so few spells WORTH putting on your summoned creature. Aid is one of the only ones that seems worthwhile for the temp HP+bonus to attack. Basically with Rapid Metamagic, Rapid Spell, and Metamagic School Focus, you can summon a creature on your standard action instead of taking a full round and potentially getting disrupted...Cloudy Conjuration is nice because it's automatic and free. 1. They're both enhancement bonuses... I hadn't noticed that on Augment Summoning... I guess that means my plans to Imbue bull's strength also won't work... 2. Rapid Spell doesn't really work for my PC, since the text of the feat doesn't allow it to be applied to spontaneously cast spells with a casting time of 1 full round (like many people, including myself, interpret the "1 round" casting time on summons to mean). 3. Cloudy Conjuration is very nice. If I go the Imbued Summoning route (which I probably will, now that I know about the enhancement bonus thing), that would be my 12th level feat.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-19-07, 10:31 PM	1. They're both enhancement bonuses... I hadn't noticed that on Augment Summoning... I guess that means my plans to Imbue bull's strength also won't work... 2. Rapid Spell doesn't really work for my PC, since the text of the feat doesn't allow it to be applied to spontaneously cast spells with a casting time of 1 full round (like many people, including myself, interpret the "1 round" casting time on summons to mean). 3. Cloudy Conjuration is very nice. If I go the Imbued Summoning route (which I probably will, now that I know about the enhancement bonus thing), that would be my 12th level feat. I think you mis-read Rapid Spell. It specifically states "This feat CAN be applied to a spell cast spontaneously as long as the original casting time was longer than one full round" and summons, as 1 round casting times are longer than full round casting times. Full round=Standard+move action, 1 round=casting till start of next turn. The special note is basically just making it clear that the feat is worthless to spontaneous spells with full round or shorter casting time because the feat would reduce the casting time to a standard action, then increase to a full round action due to spontaneous application of metamagic. With Rapid Metamagic, that is no longer an issue.
JohnduBois 02-19-07, 10:48 PM	I think you mis-read Rapid Spell. It specifically states "This feat CAN be applied to a spell cast spontaneously as long as the original casting time was longer than one full round" and summons, as 1 round casting times are longer than full round casting times. Full round=Standard+move action, 1 round=casting till start of next turn. The special note is basically just making it clear that the feat is worthless to spontaneous spells with full round or shorter casting time because the feat would reduce the casting time to a standard action, then increase to a full round action due to spontaneous application of metamagic. With Rapid Metamagic, that is no longer an issue. This is where the table variation comes in. In the PHB, there is no such thing as a casting time of "1 full round" discussed, leaving it up to interpretation whether the feat is talking about spells that have a casting time of "1 full-round action", taking a standard + a move and taking effect during the caster's turn, or a casting time of "1 round", taking a standard + a move and taking effect at the beginning of the caster's next turn. Since, to my knowledge, there are no spells in D&D that have an original casting time of "1 full-round action", I believe that the feat was intended to refer to spells with a casting time of "1 round", and most of the Infinite Monkeys debates swung this way as well. Even if I felt that the feat intended "1 full-round action", I would avoid taking the Rapid Spell feat without errata or FAQ clarification, as the table variation could potentially remove a feat from a PC who is already feat-starved (since I had to take Well Read to qualify for my PrC). I would also like to note that even if the feat did work the way you claim (and I'm not saying it doesn't for sure - there is definitely ambiguity there), a Rapid summon, with an original casting time of 1 round (longer that "1 full-round action" and presumably "measured in rounds", as the feat says), would require a full-round action to cast as opposed to a standard action (although the benefit of not having to wait through everyone else's turn to get the critter would be well worth it).