Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eric Anondson 02-09-07, 09:30 PM	I've never played bards, I don't have the personality I guess. I'm mostly a melee combat kind-of-guy. I'm looking at trying something wildly different. What can a player of a bard use, rules-wise, to make a bard a significant party contributer? I'm talking items, spells, feats, multiclassing, prestige classes, skill synergies, skill maximizing (other than Perform), etc. Particularly Core access things, but go ahead and mention NONC things if they are worth striving for. Thanks!
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 10:05 PM	Really, Bards are straightforward - round 1 of every combat, you do Inspire Courage, Haste, and/or Inspire Greatness. You do Inspirational Boost from SpC when doing Inspire Courage. 1 level of Marshal works well, especially if going Sublime Chord. Make sure you have something to do after you manage to get through the first set. Fire a bow, use a whip to trip/disarm, cast Grease/Glitterdust/Confusion/Silence. There's a lot of good 1st level spells in Spell Compendium. The major problem with them is that a Bard played properly is about as boring in combat as watching paint dry. Will you enjoy always being second banana, merely taking pleasure in watching your team win due to your behind the scenes contribution? If you can't do that, don't play a bard.
JamesMaissen 02-09-07, 11:10 PM	What can a player of a bard use, rules-wise, to make a bard a significant party contributer? Thanks! To understand and not forget your role in the party. Don't think of a bard as a sorcerer with skills. You don't have the spell slots per day that a sorcerer does to bludgeon your way through things. You may be picking your spells like a sorcerer picks his but you have different goals in mind. Notice that while you do initially get 2 spells known when you gain a new level of spells that you only get bonus spells for that level... There are alot of ways to look to build a bard. What are you looking to get out of them? -James
Eric Anondson 02-09-07, 11:46 PM	There are alot of ways to look to build a bard. What are you looking to get out of them?Every time I have seen a bard in my group, the party is better when the bard is making everyone else better. I'd want the bard to have in his bag of tricks everything that made everyone else better. I guess I noticed it when I started doing more damage, and such from the bard song. But I never much paid attention to whatever else the bard was doing because I was sitting in front pounding and taking a pounding paying attention to my own numbers.
magebeast 02-10-07, 01:06 AM	If you intend to play a bard, know this: You will spend more time during combat saying "Did you add my bard song on that total (the one that missed)?" and "Did you add my bard song to your damage?" than anything else. Beyond that, as people have said, you don't really do much in combat. Provide flanks if you're fighting a combat with lots of little things and you can afford to take a hit or two - like a combat with a cleric and a bunch of speedbump zombies. Letting the fighter power attack for two to mow through them a little quicker is nice. However, at higher levels people like rogues, monks, archers, and two-weapon fighters will love you. Your bonuses make a world of difference to them. Buff spells are your bread and butter - and the good ones have already been mentioned, so I won't repeat them. The feat from Complete Mage, "Melodic Casting" is also an excellent choice. You can cast spells and use spell completion items (wands etc) without ending your inspire courage, and you can use perform in the place of concentration. You can get it at 1st level if you have max ranks in perform and spellcraft. Improved Initiative is also a good one, because taking your buffing action before anyone else goes is nice. Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Info, Spellcraft and Knowledges are all good skill choices. Perform is the obvious one that you *have* to have. I took perform oratory because I thought it fit the sort of character that I wanted to play, but in terms of items to enhance your perform check it's actually the least powerful. Perform(sing) is a little better because there's a neck slot item that boosts that check, but it also means you can't have an amulet of con. The various instrument performs are good because there are some wondrous items and masterwork instruments that can be used in conjuction with them, but keep in mind that you cannot use a weapon while playing an instrument, whereas you can fire a crossbow or use a whip or whatever when you're singing or orating.
solbergb 02-10-07, 11:15 AM	Inspirational boost at level 2. Haste at level 7 Enough bard levels to do the temp-hp adding bardsong (that would be 9 levels) before you mutt out. Warchanters get a pass on this, they have something similar (less powerful on one target, but affects whole party) Masterwork instrument training if you can get them are nice but not essential. The desire and will as a PLAYER to remind everybody about all the bonuse you're providing and make sure they get used. That's about it. If wait until the inspire courage is up and haste (if needed and avialable) is cast, you're effective. Anything else you do is entirely up to you, in or out of combat, and bards have plenty of directions they can go. Just don't forget the inspire courage and haste, unless someone else has already provided it or something very similar. Bards who start out a combat where nobody is yet buffed by doing a self-buff or shooting a crossbow bolt are usually not appreciated. Because their buffs have such a big effect on the party, many bards invest in very high initiative modifiers due to dex/feats/etc
rockondon 02-10-07, 12:47 PM	make card tents with your buff info on them and throw them on the battle grid during combat. That way people won't forget to include your buffs into their rolls and you won't have to constantly remind them.
Golorious 02-10-07, 11:53 PM	All of the advice is so far is very good. You can make a bard that can do about anything fairly well. Archery, Melee, flanker etc.. But they will never really excel at them like they can with boosting the party. But it is a good idea to have something to do after the buffs. A level or two of fighter can help with a secondary purpose, but unless you’re trying to be like a warrior skald then I wouldn't dip too far away. Some of the interesting PrC's that are popular are Warchanter for more front line bards. The 10th level ability is awesome and power attackers will love you. Sublime Chord for strongest casting. Lyric Thaumaturge (Complete mage) also has stronger caster stuff. Dragon song Singer (NONC) 1 or 3 Levels are great (Dragonomicon) I have seen access out there for this. It has a buff that gives +4 moral bonus to strength and a mass flight bard song. It is crazy good. I would suggest both Lingering Song and Melodic casting. Lingering song can wait till after you get multiple song effects that you want to use. Otherwise you can look at the spell Harmonize and greater harmonize to have multiple song effects going at the same time. If you use a masterwork instrument then I think that Quick draw is handy but not really vital. Move action to stow the Lute then quick draw your bow or long spear and attack with lingering song your inspire courage will last 10 rounds. I really think that bards don't need a pclass to be successful. Also I don't remeber any that increase your inspire courage level which is your main buff. But they do need careful thought with their spells. Inspirational boost was already mentioned, haste, grease, glitter dust. They have a ton of good spells and with lingering song or Melodic casting they don't have to sacrifice their songs. I have seen critical strike + whirling blade used to great effect. If you ever see a vest of legends as a Bard then sell all your equipment to buy it (dmg2). It gives +5 levels for bardic music with a master work lute that is +6 levels. If you see a veil of allure also sell everything but the vest to buy it +2 dc for all enchantment spells is insane. Bards have many enchantment spells. I have seen an 8th level bard (not in LG) with a masterwork Lute, Vest of Legends and inspirational boost. This gives them a +4+4 inspire Courage at 8th level! That is huge for any weapon wielding character and made him a darn good archer with only PB, Precise, Rapid and lingering song. If you can keep your UMD high, you never know when it will be needed. Also for regions like the Shield lands the feat Devoted Performer is nice if you want 2 levels of Paladin for the saving throws. You will have to be a lawful good bard but it can be an interesting twist. I believe Mythriss the goddess of love and beauty is NG so can have paladins.
rockondon 02-11-07, 02:52 AM	I've played with a lot of bards, and they're usually really useful, especially in town with diplomacy/gather info, etc. In battle they always sing....but thats it. Do you wanna attack? no Do you want to flank? no Do you want to aid another? no Do you want to do anything else? no, just sing. and don't get me wrong it's real handy having that boost, but can't bards do other stuff too and still keep up their song? I never played a bard but it'd sure be nice if they could shoot a bow or maybe grab a longspear or something and flank/aid another would be pretty handy. I asked one bard why he doesn't shoot a bow. He said he had to make a concentration check to keep his song going. Is that true?
Crazy Boro 02-11-07, 03:07 AM	I've played with a lot of bards, and they're usually really useful, especially in town with diplomacy/gather info, etc. In battle they always sing....but thats it. Do you wanna attack? no Do you want to flank? no Do you want to aid another? no Do you want to do anything else? no, just sing. and don't get me wrong it's real handy having that boost, but can't bards do other stuff too and still keep up their song? I never played a bard but it'd sure be nice if they could shoot a bow or maybe grab a longspear or something and flank/aid another would be pretty handy. I asked one bard why he doesn't shoot a bow. He said he had to make a concentration check to keep his song going. Is that true? You don't need a concentration check last I knew. I believe there is also a spell out there that is open access that changes maintaining a bard song into a move-equiv action. That way they can perform and still be able to do something else with a standard action.
ranagrande 02-11-07, 04:53 AM	My next character is going to be a bard. A brutal melee specialist spiked chain wielding bard.
magebeast 02-11-07, 11:45 AM	You don't need a concentration check last I knew. I believe there is also a spell out there that is open access that changes maintaining a bard song into a move-equiv action. That way they can perform and still be able to do something else with a standard action. Bard song doesn't require you to spend any time maintaining unless specifically stated. All bard song effects require a standard action to begin using, but only stuff like Inspire Heroics (the temp HP and bonuses to a specific person one) requires you to concentrate on it. Inspire courage keeps going as long as you don't do anything to interfere with your type of performance. Spellcasting interrupts it. If you're singing or orating, using a weapon does not. Talking (or singing) is a free action!
solbergb 02-11-07, 12:22 PM	Melodic song is very good for a spellcasting bard - it means their bardsongs last the whole combat without recasting unless they switch songs. They can cast away with spells and spell-consumables every round. without having the bardsong timer run out (and can do multiple encounters on one bardsong). I'm experimenting with this next level on my bard cohort as a replacement for extra bardsong - she uses Lyric Song, which burns bardsongs like nobody's business but it looks like I might save enough songs by not having to re-sing after every fight or after 5 rounds are up after I cast a spell to make up for no extra bardsong. It also really fits the flavor of the character, this bard dosnt' really distinguish between bardsong effects and spell effects...so while most bards can fight and sing, she can cast and sing (she's utterly inept in combat) I don't think you need both melodic and lingering- note also that lingering song doesn't work on most bardsong effects that are not from the PHB. So not on any of the warchanter stuff, not on any of the seeker of the song stuff, not on any of the feats that grant new kinds of bardsongs. Bards have the option to do ranged combat, melee combat or spell combat after they sing. Most can only do one of these at all well, and tailor their feats/spell selections around this. Some bards instead choose to do none of these well and focus entirely on their skillset. To me this is kind of like a monk who only focuses on stunning fist and doesn't have the strength to actually hurt anyone or use the strength based tactical feats. It can be useful in the hands of a skilled player, but it usually isn't, and tends to give the class a bad name. Bards that want to fight must devote attributes away from charisma to physical stats, and must focus spell selection on things that help them in combat (and ideally, help others or are swift action spells). Bards that want to cast spells usually need feats to boost their spell slots, because they don't have enough. Two common approaches are pearl of power + arcane preparation +craft wondrous or extra bardsong/lyric song. Bards that focus on support spells instead of offensive enchanter spells usually have an easier time contributing, but the diplomonster character backed by enchantment/charm spells could be a way to go. Just have a few support options when you're fighting stuff immune to enchantment, or work on your UMD skill. Actually...skillmonster bards really still have no excuse to not contribute in combat after the singing is done. Just make one of those skills UMD, and buy consumables thoughtfully. you have every spell list to work from, after all.
Daverius 02-11-07, 07:51 PM	I've played a bard. It's true you are going to want to develop a method to remind everyone at the table about your bonuses. "did you count bard song? +2 to hit and damage." Make a tent that says BARD SONG +2 to hit and damage, and keep pointing at it. I actually made an half-elf archer build out of a bard. I took 4 levels of bard, 2 levels of ranger, and 1 level of fighter, from then on I plan to take arcane archer. The spells I took were, inspriational boost, cure light wounds, exp. retreat, sound burst, and minor image (though I haven't had an opportunity to use minor image, but I have alot of neat ideas). The best zero level spell you'll want to take is message. This allows you to sing from over a 100 feet away. Invest in a cool bow, and you'll be adding some nice damage and assisting quite a bit in combat. Right now after inspirational boost, my guy has an attack roll of +12/+12/+7 and does 1d8+4 +1d6 frost damage. Not to mention every body in the party recieves +2 to hit and damage. I figured bard and ranger were a good mix because skills like hide, move silent, and listen overlap. I'm mainly focusing on my sensory skills until retirement. My stealth is decent as well. Great way to get out of jam, tumble to cover and make a hide check and sneak away next round. One more thing, bard song lasts for five rounds after you stop singing. Uusually that is more than enough. Daverius
Lomiat 02-11-07, 07:56 PM	Apparently, Eric, it's necessary for your bard to have a s***-ton of hit points. Or else, when the freaking dire elk of legend decides to trample your party, you'll be the first PC (playing up) to drop to negs (for the second or third encounter in the mod). Either that, or buy a Vest of Getting Out of the Way +10! ;) Um, but seriously? Finch is picking up Tongues as one of his first 2nd-level spells. It's nice to be able to hit a Diplomacy check of 55, but if the elk can't understand you...
solbergb 02-11-07, 10:27 PM	Swift invis helps with the dire elks of legend. Swift fly can help even more And the high init mod many bards favor, so you can move before it starts trampling. And perhaps high spot/listen too, so you aren't surprised. Hitpoints as a bard defense ranks low compared to everything else they have that is much easier to get. Only melee bards need to sweat the hitpoint issue. Or the bards who took 10 constitution...they now have less average hitpoints than a typical wizard.
Lomiat 02-11-07, 10:32 PM	Swift invis helps with the dire elks of legend. Swift fly can help even more And the high init mod many bards favor, so you can move before it starts trampling. And perhaps high spot/listen too, so you aren't surprised. Hitpoints as a bard defense ranks low compared to everything else they have that is much easier to get. Only melee bards need to sweat the hitpoint issue. Or the bards who took 10 constitution...they now have less average hitpoints than a typical wizard. Thanks, but it was an inside joke. I played a mod with Eric on Saturday and had my bard trampled by said dire elk of legend. Swift fly didn't matter: 3rd level bard. Swift invis didn't matter: 3rd level bard. High spot/listen didn't matter: We had been singing to the dire elk of legend for 5 rounds. It was, in fact, quite captivated for that time while one of our party members was trying to find another way to calm it down (long story...) High init? Didn't matter since the DM waited for us to take actions and stuff, but held the elk's init until after it was no longer fascinated. My bard had attempted to resume the fascinate, picking up from the other bard's, but y'know a DC 32 for the Will save just didn't cut it. (But, yeah, given what we had at the table, my bard had a +9 init.) And he's not a melee bard... Until the dire elk tramples the whole party with 80+ feet of movement. It was amusing. It was also unusual. And my bard found himself particularly (and atypically) squishy that mod.
Eric Anondson 02-11-07, 11:08 PM	Thanks, but it was an inside joke. I played a mod with Eric on Saturday and had my bard trampled by said dire elk of legend.Quite. That dire elk of legend could almost be a candidate for the Monsters that shouldn't be at that APL (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=783907) thread. At APL 6 that thing had 176 hit points and was dishing out average damage in the mid 30s per target trampled. Lots of pain as we were arranged perfect for the trample by a Huge beast with so much movement. Which in a round about way brings up a worry about a bard. Getting singled out by a DM/author. Not saying our squishy characters were singled out in this encounter, but they sure did pay a steep price. If bards work best when they are directed towards helping others, are they even worse off when it comes time that they are in the thick of things? Do bards really end up surviving by the grace of the DM?
solbergb 02-11-07, 11:40 PM	swift invis is a spell a 3rd level bard could have..just saying. Next time you try to fascinate the dire elk of legend use the first 5 rounds of the other bard doing it to climb a tree or something :) Bards survive by situational awareness and by not being an inviting target. Nothing they do requires them to be in the thick of things. They have many defensive options to be less attractive targets, and their offensive stuff isnt' usually so flashy that they're high priority to kill. But like the wizards and sorcerers, your own two feet are your best defense. That bard had 5 rounds to find a place where the Elk couldn't hurt it before he tried his weaker fascinate. He could also have use a scroll of invisibility in that time or done a number of other things that might have helped somewhat. Trample from a huge creature is rather easily stopped by simply enlarging one of the party members (it needs two size advantages to trample, casting a "mount" spell and interposing teh horse) or using your own horses to block. Grease is also pretty good on some, but not all trampling things. anything that messes with their movement. If it isn't very bright, silent image might work too. If it is any consolation, the DM ran the Elk init wrong. When fascinated, it can't be "delaying until after I stop being fascinated". He rolls the init, and it loses any rounds it's fascinated. The party meanwhile, could be all ready with actions to open up on the Elk when the bardsong ends. The party showed a failure of imagination. But then a size huge trampling critter is perhaps more than they expected at APL4, where something like a brown bear or a few ogres is normal.
Daverius 02-12-07, 12:49 AM	I started my bard with a con of 10....he hasn't died once, but let me tell you, you'll want to play smart that is for sure. There were many occasions where a lucky save saved my life....like a 60 hp flame strike at apl 8. You definantly do not want to be up in melee....it happened once for me, and on an accident.....whew dropped me to 3 hitpoints on one attack. Tumble is a good skill to have. Any spell or trick that you have to get yourself out of a jam is extremely important. Daverisu
Lomiat 02-12-07, 07:16 AM	swift invis is a spell a 3rd level bard could have..just saying. Next time you try to fascinate the dire elk of legend use the first 5 rounds of the other bard doing it to climb a tree or something :) Bards survive by situational awareness and by not being an inviting target. Nothing they do requires them to be in the thick of things. They have many defensive options to be less attractive targets, and their offensive stuff isnt' usually so flashy that they're high priority to kill. But like the wizards and sorcerers, your own two feet are your best defense. That bard had 5 rounds to find a place where the Elk couldn't hurt it before he tried his weaker fascinate. He could also have use a scroll of invisibility in that time or done a number of other things that might have helped somewhat. Trample from a huge creature is rather easily stopped by simply enlarging one of the party members (it needs two size advantages to trample, casting a "mount" spell and interposing teh horse) or using your own horses to block. Grease is also pretty good on some, but not all trampling things. anything that messes with their movement. If it isn't very bright, silent image might work too. If it is any consolation, the DM ran the Elk init wrong. When fascinated, it can't be "delaying until after I stop being fascinated". He rolls the init, and it loses any rounds it's fascinated. The party meanwhile, could be all ready with actions to open up on the Elk when the bardsong ends. The party showed a failure of imagination. But then a size huge trampling critter is perhaps more than they expected at APL4, where something like a brown bear or a few ogres is normal. Geez, I know you don't mean this as a flame or anything, but a "failure of imagination"? Thanks... For what it's worth, ANY spell that we had cast would have ended the Fascinate, and we weren't looking to do that. (It's in the description of the Fascinate ability.) (Also, no trees to climb, and moving toward the elk would have likely disrupted the Fascinate.) Yes, we could have been readying actions, etc. BUT... first, we were trying to find ways (rather imaginative, I thought) to stall the encounter long enough for our other PC to get maguffin X to avoid combat. Second, my bard's action was to try to Fascinate the elk when the other bard's Fascinate wore off. Finally, I think everyone else (players) were a little surprised by the DM's response to the end of the fascinate--not entirely sure on that last point. And then... yeah... I guess my bard could have Swift Invisibility at 3rd level, but since I took Inspirational Boost instead... I guess I gave up that early bit of defense. Again, I know it wasn't a flame--just a consideration of a bard's various abilities. But before the situation becomes text book for how a "bard was played incorrectly," let's just say that things don't go quite as well as we'd hoped rather than that we'd shown a "failure of imagination." Okay?
UMiskatonic 02-12-07, 10:37 AM	The bard is the quintessential utility guy. So make sure you can cover that job. Be able to make up for anything that the other five people might have forgotten. Have silver arrows, extra antitoxin, and buy the universal solvent when you see it. Aside from that above, I'd include Speak Language and UMD as critical class skills. Languages are great with all your diplomacy-type skills, and every once in a while, the necromancer's sercret diary will be written in Ur-Flan. UMD allows you to get by when there isn't a cleric. "I take out a scroll of lesser restoration..." UMD is also a decent attack form. A wand of magic missiles, and you are set.
solbergb 02-12-07, 01:20 PM	Again, I know it wasn't a flame--just a consideration of a bard's various abilities. But before the situation becomes text book for how a "bard was played incorrectly," let's just say that things don't go quite as well as we'd hoped rather than that we'd shown a "failure of imagination." Okay? It was a response to the "bards need hitpoints" thing. Bards don't need hitpoints any more than anyone else does and less than many. The usual "take a 14 con" rule is generally sufficient. You guys played percentages and lost, it happens (remind me to tell you about a dragon attack I did once that went REALLY bad for my slotzero table and REALLY well for another that had nearly identical tactics. We picked a tactic that had a high percentage chance of a big payoff, but the dice got cold for us and hot for DM. We could have picked a more conservative tactic and avoided two deaths and a near TPK caused by a combination of our choices and bad dice). But it doesn't have anything to do with bards needing more hitpoints.
Eric Anondson 02-12-07, 01:58 PM	It was a response to the "bards need hitpoints" thing. Bards don't need hitpoints any more than anyone else does and less than many. The usual "take a 14 con" rule is generally sufficient. ... But it doesn't have anything to do with bards needing more hitpoints.I guess this proves that an inside joke sometimes really loses the punch when shared outside. :) He wasn't serious about needing "a s***-ton hit points" for bards.
bitznarf 02-12-07, 03:17 PM	You don't need a concentration check last I knew. I believe there is also a spell out there that is open access that changes maintaining a bard song into a move-equiv action. That way they can perform and still be able to do something else with a standard action. The ones your looking for are Harmonize, and Greater Harmonize. 2nd and 4th level respectively I do believe, located in the Spell Compendium.
Crazy Boro 02-12-07, 03:23 PM	The ones your looking for are Harmonize, and Greater Harmonize. 2nd and 4th level respectively I do believe, located in the Spell Compendium. Thanks for the help. Only have adventured with bards and I remember them pulling those fun tricks. Actually found in Races of Stone, but they are Core spells. Harmonize allows you to start a bardic music effect as a move-equiv. The greater one does that and allows you to maintain those effects that need a standard action as a move-equiv action instead. They're both good choices for a bard.
Rerednaw 02-12-07, 04:18 PM	To the OP: If you are thinking about a new character, I'd wait until 597 LGCS is official. Starting now means retraining as soon as you hit level 2. Like my bard who hit level 2. Now he will be level 4 before he's 'fixed.' :) Definitely take Inspirational Boost (SpC) as soon as you hit level 2. At level 4, I'd say Tactical Precision is also a good spell. Know Vulnerabilities is of some use, but as a bard you probably have the appropriate knowledge skill right? At level 7 your field really opens up. Haste, Glibness, Unluck are good. Know Opponent I'd rate same as Know Vulnerabilities nice to have, but you can probably duplicate the effect with a knowledge check. At higher levels it really depends on your focus. Many bards go Sublime Chord for a few levels to really pump up spellcasting. Really though, there is nothing wrong with bard15, especially if this is your first bard. Enjoy.
Lomiat 02-12-07, 05:32 PM	That's a good point about the Year 7 rules.... You can mitigate most of the 1st-level bard's problems by taking Extra Music at 1st level. Human bards should consider picking it up along with Improved Initiative. You would think that at later levels you wouldn't need so many uses of bard song, but I find it less and less likely that I'll ever maintain a surplus with my bard. Lyric Spell, alone, will eat through your bardic music. Then, there are all those skill checks you can assist, hit dice to add, and that's all OUTSIDE of combat. Because, of course, you'll still use your Inspire Courage in the first or second round of every combat...