What wizard/rogue builds are currently favored? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What wizard/rogue builds are currently favored? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Redfist
05-28-07, 04:33 AM I'm thinking of making a wizard (spec conjuration) / rogue build - maybe arcane trickster. What wiz/rog builds are people playing now?
Maesto
05-28-07, 05:03 AM The currently favored build is Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer2/Arcane TricksterX. Fifth level of wizard can be taken for an extra feet if you want it; further unseen seer levels aren't bad also. The consensus seems to be that practised spellcaster makes up for the caster levels which are lost due to the unseen seer penalty for non-divination spells. At fifteenth level, you end up with 14 casting levels (CL 15), and can get to 6d6 sneak attack without trying too hard.

This kind of build supremely trumps pre-597 builds, which needed to take another two rogue levels, and thus misses out on those two casting levels.
myshkingfh
05-28-07, 04:16 PM How does the math work out for all the uss skill prereqs? Since they're cross class and several need skill rank 8, I assumed I'd need rogue 2 or ranger 1 at 5th level.

Also, Wizard better than Diviner?
bitznarf
05-28-07, 04:21 PM You can do it with skill retraining myshkingfh. Check MwaO's build compendium for a link to one of the many threads on this.
Mommy was an Orc
05-28-07, 05:08 PM I think Unseen Seer is a little better than Arcane Trickster. The ability to pick any three divination spells is amazing - Listening Lorecall, Grave Strike, and there are several other good choices.

Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1. Cast spells in Mithril Chain Shirt+Mithril Buckler, choose your favorite Rogue attack method. +11 BAB, +5d6 Sneak, 6th level spells. Cast Grease, Blink, or Greater Invis, then go to work. Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, CWI at 6th, and Arcane Strike at 9th.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 - lots of skill points, near full caster. Practiced Spellcaster nicely deals with the Divination spellpower issue.

Needless to say, if for some reason you get access to Hunter's Eye from PHB II...take that immediately...
Herrbard
05-28-07, 05:37 PM Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1. Cast spells in Mithril Chain Shirt+Mithril Buckler, choose your favorite Rogue attack method. +11 BAB, +5d6 Sneak, 6th level spells. Cast Grease, Blink, or Greater Invis, then go to work. Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, CWI at 6th, and Arcane Strike at 9th.
Is this build detailed anywhere? I checked the compilation and couldn't find it. This sounds like an idea for my Greyhawk Ruins character.
Mommy was an Orc
05-28-07, 06:34 PM Looks like this:
Human
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 - pick Str, Dex or Int to be 16 depending on concentration.
1: Rogue 1: A, B
2: Fighter 1: C
3: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Practiced Spellcaster
4: Rogue 2
5: Rogue 3
6: Unseen Seer 1: CWI
7: Unseen Seer 2: Silent Spell
8: Spellsword 1
9: Unseen Seer 3: Arcane Strike(unless Archer)
10: Unseen Seer 4
11: Unseen Seer 5
12: Unseen Seer 6: D
13: Unseen Seer 7
14: Unseen Seer 8
15: Wizard 2: ?

Where ABCD = feats that a particular Rogue Archetype uses - remember, Master's Touch can be used to get EWP...Heroics(NONC, but I've seen access) just about breaks everything open:
Combat Reflexes type:
A = Combat Expertise
B = Improved Trip
C = Combat Reflexes
D = Combat Acrobat

TWF'er
A = TWF
B = Improved Buckler Defense
C = Quickdraw or Weapon Finesse
D = ITWF or Staggering Strike

Etc...

Really useful spells:
Grave/Golem Strike
False Life for melee types
Grease/Blink/Greater Invisibility to allow sneak attacks
Herrbard
05-28-07, 07:06 PM Thanks! I'll play with it a little, but looks very solid. :D
Mommy was an Orc
05-28-07, 08:03 PM Thanks! I'll play with it a little, but looks very solid. :D

No problem. Glad to help. Put it into the Compilation.
myshkingfh
05-28-07, 10:32 PM You can do it with skill retraining myshkingfh. Check MwaO's build compendium for a link to one of the many threads on this.

This must be painfully obvious, but where is the build compendium?
bitznarf
05-28-07, 10:40 PM It's *the* sticky in the LG Characters forum.
myshkingfh
05-28-07, 10:47 PM Well, I was talking this over on gchat with another board member, and I was wondering what you all would say to the following build ideas.

The character uses a very high int to be both an effective caster and party spokesman type, with some roguey abilities. I thought that I'd need another level of a high skill class to make the skill prereqs, but I guess that's not necessary. Here are some ideas we were kicking around. Absolute power is not required, but avoiding huge mistakes would be nice. My books are packed (we are moving) so forgive any technical build errors.

Grey Elf
S - 6
D - however many extra points I have
C - 12
I - 20 (19 might be better?)
W - 8
C - 8

1 - rogue
2 - diviner
3 - diviner
4 - diviner
5 - ranger (rogue or diviner with retraining[?])
6 - USS X (with AT or SS thrown in)

I would bump INT, the extra skill points seem a lot more useful than the higher cha

Feats would be things like practiced spellcaster, improved initiative, leadership, split ray, craft wondrous item.

Thanks. As I've said, sorry for rules errors. Wife packed the D&D books first :rolleyes:
myshkingfh
05-28-07, 10:57 PM It's *the* sticky in the LG Characters forum.

As I wrote, exceedingly obvious, thanks!
Mommy was an Orc
05-29-07, 12:00 AM Grey Elf
S - 6
D - however many extra points I have
C - 12
I - 20 (19 might be better?)
W - 8
C - 8

1 - rogue
2 - diviner
3 - diviner
4 - diviner
5 - ranger (rogue or diviner with retraining[?])
6 - USS X (with AT or SS thrown in)

I would bump INT, the extra skill points seem a lot more useful than the higher cha

Feats would be things like practiced spellcaster, improved initiative, leadership, split ray, craft wondrous item.

Thanks. As I've said, sorry for rules errors. Wife packed the D&D books first :rolleyes:

You don't need the 2nd level of Ranger or Rogue - it should just be the 4th level of Diviner. You do need the 20 Int if you don't plan to retrain some skills to cross-class all the skills effectively. If you retrain, you can drop it to a minimum of 18 Int.

Get Practiced Spellcaster, otherwise, treat it as if it were any other Wizard build.
Sieylianna
05-29-07, 04:09 PM He's likely to have a tough time as party spokesmen with an 8 charisma and Diplomacy and the Diplomacy synergy skills being cross class skills.

Ed
bitznarf
05-29-07, 04:14 PM Beguiler is a much more natural fit for what you seem to want to do, other than the whole 'very few damaging spells' part.
Redfist
05-29-07, 04:21 PM I don't think Unseen Seer is the route for me. I want to be a spec conjuration wizard + probably rogue.
bitznarf
05-29-07, 04:23 PM Going going Unseen Seer with Practiced Spellcaster doesn't take anything away from a conjuration wizard, it just adds to it. And with the rogue level it adds even more. Well, I suppose it takes away from your familiar, but thats not a big deal in my opinion.
Redfist
05-29-07, 05:01 PM Unseen Seer weakens non-div spells as you progress in the class right? I don't have the books in front me me.
bitznarf
05-29-07, 05:03 PM Thats what the Practiced Spellcaster feat is for; it deals with both the caster loss from Unseen Seer and the loss from Rogue.
Redfist
05-29-07, 05:12 PM That'll make up for 4 of the levels (2 of which are caused by Unseen Seer). The build has more than 2 other levels lost I believe (not really reading the thread today - gotta run). I'll read it more tonight.
bitznarf
05-29-07, 05:29 PM It doesn't have to, the simplist build is the Rogue1/Wiz4/USX/ATX, with Wiz 5 if you want the feat, Wiz 6 for saves and BaB.
Lupo
05-29-07, 06:37 PM I'm thinking of making a wizard (spec conjuration) / rogue build - maybe arcane trickster. What wiz/rog builds are people playing now?

for "scourge of the howling horde" i will start a new character that is planned as rogue/wizard/arcane trickster for dual-wand-wielder.

with the now open class of unseen seer the build might slightly change.

1: rogue 1, TWF, 1d6 sneak attack
2: wizard 1:
3: wizard 2: quick draw
4: wizard 3:
5: wizard 4:
6: wizard 5: craft wand; dual wand wielder
7: rogue 2:
8: rogue 3 OR unseen seer 1: 2d6 sneak attack
9: arcane trickster 1: practiced spellcaster OR craft wondrous items
10: . . . . arcane trickster till 15

the unseen seer level would reduce the loss of caster levels to two, therefore making practiced spellcaster not as necessary as the level of rogue :)
but it would be another + zero BAB level, hm, tough decision:confused:

taking only unseen seer levels at 7 and 8 would eat up lots of cross class skillpoints to qualify for it - and forgo the evasion of rogue 2 - so isn't a real option.

ciao

martin m.
myshkingfh
05-29-07, 10:50 PM He's likely to have a tough time as party spokesmen with an 8 charisma and Diplomacy and the Diplomacy synergy skills being cross class skills.

Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Local Knowledge and Sense Motive are all class skills for USS.
clik_ml
05-30-07, 01:56 AM 15 Beguiler makes an stand-in for a wizard/rogue these days.

1 Rogue/4 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is a very caster oriented rogue type who can do a bit of sneaky-tack damage when called upon to do so.

3 Rogue/2 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is more sneak attack-oriented and does significant sneak attack damage and can nab Arcane Strike at 9th level as well.

Before the Beguiler and Unseen Seer came into play, I was playing a build of 5 Wiz/1 Rog/3 Geometer/6 Undecided who basically was a Beguiler with respect to spell selection (18 int, loaded on save or sucks).

Out of stubborness I was going to keep at that character, but I think I'm just going to scrap him and go with the 3 Rog/2 Beguiler, Unseen Seer build. It just does everything so much more elegantly. I doubt I'll even worry about practiced spellcaster since save or suck spells often don't get altered much by caster level- it's all about pimping the DC.

As a gish foundation, beguilers are pretty lacking, but as a rogue/wizard they rock pretty well. Even short 3 caster levels, they can still have acceptable DCs, and when not throwing down those spells they can do sneak attack damage acceptably well.
Sieylianna
05-30-07, 12:30 PM Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Local Knowledge and Sense Motive are all class skills for USS.

So he sucks for six levels and then starts to catch up. I'm sorry, but that isn't a character which I would say meets the concept of a party face.

Ed
myshkingfh
05-30-07, 02:11 PM He sucks at being the party face for a couple of those levels sure, but he doesn't suck on the whole. +3 to those skills is pretty good for the first couple levels. Then for a couple, someone else will have to fill that role. Big deal.
Mommy was an Orc
05-30-07, 03:27 PM So he sucks for six levels and then starts to catch up. I'm sorry, but that isn't a character which I would say meets the concept of a party face.

Ed

He's not exceptionally good, but at 6th level, it isn't that bad either. It isn't that hard to use retraining to make pretty good at 6th level.

Retrain some random Rogue skill into Diplomacy at 6th. This means you need a total of 3 skill points to max Diplomacy, get Bluff/Sense Motive to 5 ranks each, and if you're a 20 Int Grey Elf, you ought to have enough skill points to get Knowledge(Nobility) to 5 ranks if you retrain at some point during the Wizard levels. That leaves you 8 skill points to catch up your other skills.

So at 6th level, even with an 8 Charisma, that's a +14 Diplomacy score(9 ranks, +6 Synergy, -1 Cha) - it isn't that bad...
GenghisBob
05-31-07, 06:37 PM Unseen Seer weakens non-div spells as you progress in the class right? I don't have the books in front me me.
How about jumping out of Unseen seer for Arcane trickster some time around level 10 + still progress Sneak attack and Wizard spells and still decent Skills.
Timlagor
05-31-07, 09:48 PM I'm pretty sure you want to interweave your AT and US levels (UMD notably lacking from AT if you care and US benefits from having the extra spells at a higher level) but I haven't looked that closely yet.

Practiced Spellcaster is still a staple of AT builds that use US because of the lost CLs.
JamesMaissen
06-01-07, 01:11 PM 15 Beguiler makes an stand-in for a wizard/rogue these days.

1 Rogue/4 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is a very caster oriented rogue type who can do a bit of sneaky-tack damage when called upon to do so.

3 Rogue/2 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is more sneak attack-oriented and does significant sneak attack damage and can nab Arcane Strike at 9th level as well.

Pure Beguiler (or close to it) is a fair build. Unseen Seer however dips into the class's strengths in skills.

I would not do either of the later two builds for that reason. You are taking a Rogue level so you already have trapfinding and your Unseen Seer levels will be the same regardless. Especially the last build.. go with wizard. You loose 4 skill points/level for those levels (so either 16 or 8 skill points) but gain much better casting options.

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Redfist 05-28-07, 04:33 AM	I'm thinking of making a wizard (spec conjuration) / rogue build - maybe arcane trickster. What wiz/rog builds are people playing now?
Maesto 05-28-07, 05:03 AM	The currently favored build is Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer2/Arcane TricksterX. Fifth level of wizard can be taken for an extra feet if you want it; further unseen seer levels aren't bad also. The consensus seems to be that practised spellcaster makes up for the caster levels which are lost due to the unseen seer penalty for non-divination spells. At fifteenth level, you end up with 14 casting levels (CL 15), and can get to 6d6 sneak attack without trying too hard. This kind of build supremely trumps pre-597 builds, which needed to take another two rogue levels, and thus misses out on those two casting levels.
myshkingfh 05-28-07, 04:16 PM	How does the math work out for all the uss skill prereqs? Since they're cross class and several need skill rank 8, I assumed I'd need rogue 2 or ranger 1 at 5th level. Also, Wizard better than Diviner?
bitznarf 05-28-07, 04:21 PM	You can do it with skill retraining myshkingfh. Check MwaO's build compendium for a link to one of the many threads on this.
Mommy was an Orc 05-28-07, 05:08 PM	I think Unseen Seer is a little better than Arcane Trickster. The ability to pick any three divination spells is amazing - Listening Lorecall, Grave Strike, and there are several other good choices. Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1. Cast spells in Mithril Chain Shirt+Mithril Buckler, choose your favorite Rogue attack method. +11 BAB, +5d6 Sneak, 6th level spells. Cast Grease, Blink, or Greater Invis, then go to work. Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, CWI at 6th, and Arcane Strike at 9th. Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 - lots of skill points, near full caster. Practiced Spellcaster nicely deals with the Divination spellpower issue. Needless to say, if for some reason you get access to Hunter's Eye from PHB II...take that immediately...
Herrbard 05-28-07, 05:37 PM	Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1. Cast spells in Mithril Chain Shirt+Mithril Buckler, choose your favorite Rogue attack method. +11 BAB, +5d6 Sneak, 6th level spells. Cast Grease, Blink, or Greater Invis, then go to work. Make sure to take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd, CWI at 6th, and Arcane Strike at 9th. Is this build detailed anywhere? I checked the compilation and couldn't find it. This sounds like an idea for my Greyhawk Ruins character.
Mommy was an Orc 05-28-07, 06:34 PM	Looks like this: Human Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 - pick Str, Dex or Int to be 16 depending on concentration. 1: Rogue 1: A, B 2: Fighter 1: C 3: Wizard 1: Scribe Scroll, Practiced Spellcaster 4: Rogue 2 5: Rogue 3 6: Unseen Seer 1: CWI 7: Unseen Seer 2: Silent Spell 8: Spellsword 1 9: Unseen Seer 3: Arcane Strike(unless Archer) 10: Unseen Seer 4 11: Unseen Seer 5 12: Unseen Seer 6: D 13: Unseen Seer 7 14: Unseen Seer 8 15: Wizard 2: ? Where ABCD = feats that a particular Rogue Archetype uses - remember, Master's Touch can be used to get EWP...Heroics(NONC, but I've seen access) just about breaks everything open: Combat Reflexes type: A = Combat Expertise B = Improved Trip C = Combat Reflexes D = Combat Acrobat TWF'er A = TWF B = Improved Buckler Defense C = Quickdraw or Weapon Finesse D = ITWF or Staggering Strike Etc... Really useful spells: Grave/Golem Strike False Life for melee types Grease/Blink/Greater Invisibility to allow sneak attacks
Herrbard 05-28-07, 07:06 PM	Thanks! I'll play with it a little, but looks very solid. :D
Mommy was an Orc 05-28-07, 08:03 PM	Thanks! I'll play with it a little, but looks very solid. :D No problem. Glad to help. Put it into the Compilation.
myshkingfh 05-28-07, 10:32 PM	You can do it with skill retraining myshkingfh. Check MwaO's build compendium for a link to one of the many threads on this. This must be painfully obvious, but where is the build compendium?
bitznarf 05-28-07, 10:40 PM	It's the sticky in the LG Characters forum.
myshkingfh 05-28-07, 10:47 PM	Well, I was talking this over on gchat with another board member, and I was wondering what you all would say to the following build ideas. The character uses a very high int to be both an effective caster and party spokesman type, with some roguey abilities. I thought that I'd need another level of a high skill class to make the skill prereqs, but I guess that's not necessary. Here are some ideas we were kicking around. Absolute power is not required, but avoiding huge mistakes would be nice. My books are packed (we are moving) so forgive any technical build errors. Grey Elf S - 6 D - however many extra points I have C - 12 I - 20 (19 might be better?) W - 8 C - 8 1 - rogue 2 - diviner 3 - diviner 4 - diviner 5 - ranger (rogue or diviner with retraining[?]) 6 - USS X (with AT or SS thrown in) I would bump INT, the extra skill points seem a lot more useful than the higher cha Feats would be things like practiced spellcaster, improved initiative, leadership, split ray, craft wondrous item. Thanks. As I've said, sorry for rules errors. Wife packed the D&D books first :rolleyes:
myshkingfh 05-28-07, 10:57 PM	It's the sticky in the LG Characters forum. As I wrote, exceedingly obvious, thanks!
Mommy was an Orc 05-29-07, 12:00 AM	Grey Elf S - 6 D - however many extra points I have C - 12 I - 20 (19 might be better?) W - 8 C - 8 1 - rogue 2 - diviner 3 - diviner 4 - diviner 5 - ranger (rogue or diviner with retraining[?]) 6 - USS X (with AT or SS thrown in) I would bump INT, the extra skill points seem a lot more useful than the higher cha Feats would be things like practiced spellcaster, improved initiative, leadership, split ray, craft wondrous item. Thanks. As I've said, sorry for rules errors. Wife packed the D&D books first :rolleyes: You don't need the 2nd level of Ranger or Rogue - it should just be the 4th level of Diviner. You do need the 20 Int if you don't plan to retrain some skills to cross-class all the skills effectively. If you retrain, you can drop it to a minimum of 18 Int. Get Practiced Spellcaster, otherwise, treat it as if it were any other Wizard build.
Sieylianna 05-29-07, 04:09 PM	He's likely to have a tough time as party spokesmen with an 8 charisma and Diplomacy and the Diplomacy synergy skills being cross class skills. Ed
bitznarf 05-29-07, 04:14 PM	Beguiler is a much more natural fit for what you seem to want to do, other than the whole 'very few damaging spells' part.
Redfist 05-29-07, 04:21 PM	I don't think Unseen Seer is the route for me. I want to be a spec conjuration wizard + probably rogue.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 04:23 PM	Going going Unseen Seer with Practiced Spellcaster doesn't take anything away from a conjuration wizard, it just adds to it. And with the rogue level it adds even more. Well, I suppose it takes away from your familiar, but thats not a big deal in my opinion.
Redfist 05-29-07, 05:01 PM	Unseen Seer weakens non-div spells as you progress in the class right? I don't have the books in front me me.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 05:03 PM	Thats what the Practiced Spellcaster feat is for; it deals with both the caster loss from Unseen Seer and the loss from Rogue.
Redfist 05-29-07, 05:12 PM	That'll make up for 4 of the levels (2 of which are caused by Unseen Seer). The build has more than 2 other levels lost I believe (not really reading the thread today - gotta run). I'll read it more tonight.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 05:29 PM	It doesn't have to, the simplist build is the Rogue1/Wiz4/USX/ATX, with Wiz 5 if you want the feat, Wiz 6 for saves and BaB.
Lupo 05-29-07, 06:37 PM	I'm thinking of making a wizard (spec conjuration) / rogue build - maybe arcane trickster. What wiz/rog builds are people playing now? for "scourge of the howling horde" i will start a new character that is planned as rogue/wizard/arcane trickster for dual-wand-wielder. with the now open class of unseen seer the build might slightly change. 1: rogue 1, TWF, 1d6 sneak attack 2: wizard 1: 3: wizard 2: quick draw 4: wizard 3: 5: wizard 4: 6: wizard 5: craft wand; dual wand wielder 7: rogue 2: 8: rogue 3 OR unseen seer 1: 2d6 sneak attack 9: arcane trickster 1: practiced spellcaster OR craft wondrous items 10: . . . . arcane trickster till 15 the unseen seer level would reduce the loss of caster levels to two, therefore making practiced spellcaster not as necessary as the level of rogue :) but it would be another + zero BAB level, hm, tough decision:confused: taking only unseen seer levels at 7 and 8 would eat up lots of cross class skillpoints to qualify for it - and forgo the evasion of rogue 2 - so isn't a real option. ciao martin m.
myshkingfh 05-29-07, 10:50 PM	He's likely to have a tough time as party spokesmen with an 8 charisma and Diplomacy and the Diplomacy synergy skills being cross class skills. Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Local Knowledge and Sense Motive are all class skills for USS.
clik_ml 05-30-07, 01:56 AM	15 Beguiler makes an stand-in for a wizard/rogue these days. 1 Rogue/4 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is a very caster oriented rogue type who can do a bit of sneaky-tack damage when called upon to do so. 3 Rogue/2 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is more sneak attack-oriented and does significant sneak attack damage and can nab Arcane Strike at 9th level as well. Before the Beguiler and Unseen Seer came into play, I was playing a build of 5 Wiz/1 Rog/3 Geometer/6 Undecided who basically was a Beguiler with respect to spell selection (18 int, loaded on save or sucks). Out of stubborness I was going to keep at that character, but I think I'm just going to scrap him and go with the 3 Rog/2 Beguiler, Unseen Seer build. It just does everything so much more elegantly. I doubt I'll even worry about practiced spellcaster since save or suck spells often don't get altered much by caster level- it's all about pimping the DC. As a gish foundation, beguilers are pretty lacking, but as a rogue/wizard they rock pretty well. Even short 3 caster levels, they can still have acceptable DCs, and when not throwing down those spells they can do sneak attack damage acceptably well.
Sieylianna 05-30-07, 12:30 PM	Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Local Knowledge and Sense Motive are all class skills for USS. So he sucks for six levels and then starts to catch up. I'm sorry, but that isn't a character which I would say meets the concept of a party face. Ed
myshkingfh 05-30-07, 02:11 PM	He sucks at being the party face for a couple of those levels sure, but he doesn't suck on the whole. +3 to those skills is pretty good for the first couple levels. Then for a couple, someone else will have to fill that role. Big deal.
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 03:27 PM	So he sucks for six levels and then starts to catch up. I'm sorry, but that isn't a character which I would say meets the concept of a party face. Ed He's not exceptionally good, but at 6th level, it isn't that bad either. It isn't that hard to use retraining to make pretty good at 6th level. Retrain some random Rogue skill into Diplomacy at 6th. This means you need a total of 3 skill points to max Diplomacy, get Bluff/Sense Motive to 5 ranks each, and if you're a 20 Int Grey Elf, you ought to have enough skill points to get Knowledge(Nobility) to 5 ranks if you retrain at some point during the Wizard levels. That leaves you 8 skill points to catch up your other skills. So at 6th level, even with an 8 Charisma, that's a +14 Diplomacy score(9 ranks, +6 Synergy, -1 Cha) - it isn't that bad...
GenghisBob 05-31-07, 06:37 PM	Unseen Seer weakens non-div spells as you progress in the class right? I don't have the books in front me me. How about jumping out of Unseen seer for Arcane trickster some time around level 10 + still progress Sneak attack and Wizard spells and still decent Skills.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 09:48 PM	I'm pretty sure you want to interweave your AT and US levels (UMD notably lacking from AT if you care and US benefits from having the extra spells at a higher level) but I haven't looked that closely yet. Practiced Spellcaster is still a staple of AT builds that use US because of the lost CLs.
JamesMaissen 06-01-07, 01:11 PM	15 Beguiler makes an stand-in for a wizard/rogue these days. 1 Rogue/4 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is a very caster oriented rogue type who can do a bit of sneaky-tack damage when called upon to do so. 3 Rogue/2 Beguiler/10 UnseenSeer is more sneak attack-oriented and does significant sneak attack damage and can nab Arcane Strike at 9th level as well. Pure Beguiler (or close to it) is a fair build. Unseen Seer however dips into the class's strengths in skills. I would not do either of the later two builds for that reason. You are taking a Rogue level so you already have trapfinding and your Unseen Seer levels will be the same regardless. Especially the last build.. go with wizard. You loose 4 skill points/level for those levels (so either 16 or 8 skill points) but gain much better casting options. -James