Post/Author/DateTime	Post
waynec 07-31-07, 09:06 AM	I give in! Am I missing something? What's so great about Kobolds?
_metz_ 07-31-07, 09:09 AM	The following reasons: 1. They are just cool. 2. They are a suboptimal usually humorous race that is often not taken seriously. 3. They mean a lot to players who in countless mods have come up against them. They are a level 1 PCs old nemesis, as much as goblins are. Kobolds aren't better than anything else, they are just fun little guys who a lot of people like. If you want to optimise a PC don't go for the Kobold, if you want to roleplay something different, than its good.
NeSoDak 07-31-07, 09:14 AM	It's not that they are so great, its that we finally get a chance to play a common race that every character deals with at some point in their history. I've played several core and quite a few regional and metaregional (Shield Lands and IUZ) mods that have had kobold NPC's that are not evil, but help the PC's. Maybe these were the harbingers of PC kobolds? Maybe its just because they are ... Iconic? have an unconventional appeal?
nicklaw17 07-31-07, 09:17 AM	What's so great about Kobolds? Statistically? Absolutely nothing (unless you're a rogue or sorc/wiz, where the penalties are minor, and the plusses (+2ac, +dex) really pay off). But some of us just can't help but love the little buggers...
bitznarf 07-31-07, 09:52 AM	What's so great about Kobolds?I dunno, mostly I see them as another Drizzt to be honest.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 10:06 AM	They're new. People get excited about every new option that comes out. Remember the "OMIGOD, unseen seer is teh uberest!!!!" threads a few months ago? Same thing.
NeSoDak 07-31-07, 10:22 AM	They're new. People get excited about every new option that comes out. Remember the "OMIGOD, unseen seer is teh uberest!!!!" threads a few months ago? Same thing. Don't forget the Snow Elf. There must have been dozens of threads about new Snow Elf characters and how broken they were because of the minimal drawbacks. But I have yet to play a mod with one, and I still haven't created mine. Kobolds will go through the same phase, and they will fall flat because of the huge drawbacks. Yeah there will be a few who will survive and live past first level, but I don't think you will see many builds survive and most players will move on. IMHO!
_metz_ 07-31-07, 10:32 AM	Actually most people were uninterested about Snow elves, for several reasons. 1. They didn't have a credible region. This meant that one couldn't get it too involved in regional plot arcs and as such it wasn't very interesting. 2. It was really just an elf with a different point buy, nothing else really. No funky abilities, nothing much new, and no exciting new options like the kobold offers. (e.g: Wings, and Singer of Concordance) 3. People don't have much of a roleplay reason to play a snow elf, whilst most people like the challenge or humor of a kobold. 4. Snow Elves really offered more disadvantages than benefits. Sure a slightly better buy, but the lack of region meant it would hardly ever be played, get access to much that is funky, or be too involved in any major plot arcs. The snow elf card was a failure imo, but the Kobold one looks like a genuine reward, which a lot of players are excited about, and the access that comes with it really looks like it will balance out the suboptimal nature of the race. NeSoDak, there are some serious benefits of being a kobold. Just actually read through the access that has been given, and some of the builds that already have been produced. (pay particular attention to the Sorcerers, and the Singers of Concordance) Some regions may have issues, but Perrenland has a Tribe of non evil Kobolds who make excellent assassin vine wine for the region, and as such should be more easily accepted. The fact that they aren't undead or demons (the usual foes) will help. In fact a Kobold is likely to be more trusted than a Kershane Elf at the moment! (or a Gnome! off gallivanting with Vecna/Tharizdun in the Yatils!)
_metz_ 07-31-07, 10:38 AM	They're new. People get excited about every new option that comes out. Remember the "OMIGOD, unseen seer is teh uberest!!!!" threads a few months ago? Same thing. Unseen Seer is teh uberest [SIC]. Please note many of the boards where it still crops up. Look at build optimizations, and tell me an LG rogue build that is more powerful without Unseen Seer. You won't be able to do it. The Kobold is something people have been actually asking for. And not in an annoying way like the 'broken record' hordes of duskblade fans. Its a suboptimal role played race that is FUNKY not powerful. Also I have to say that the new cards are REALLY well written and thought out. (no offence but the snow elf one really sucked.)
rutrow424 07-31-07, 11:54 AM	Its a suboptimal role played race that is FUNKY not powerful. Also I have to say that the new cards are REALLY well written and thought out. (no offence but the snow elf one really sucked.) I agree - I wish the Snow Elf cards would have opened up some of the options from Frostburn or somesuch to help the uniqueness of the race/region.
Sieylianna 07-31-07, 05:21 PM	Don't forget the Snow Elf. There must have been dozens of threads about new Snow Elf characters and how broken they were because of the minimal drawbacks. But I have yet to play a mod with one, and I still haven't created mine. I've seen three snow elves in the past two months (three different players). And every one was a light fighter or swashbuckler with the courtblade. I would have created one for the scourge adaptable, but I was committed to the healer class and -2 Charisma just didn't cut it. Ed
NeSoDak 07-31-07, 05:34 PM	I've seen three snow elves in the past two months (three different players). And every one was a light fighter or swashbuckler with the courtblade. I would have created one for the scourge adaptable, but I was committed to the healer class and -2 Charisma just didn't cut it. Ed The snow elf I have created but haven't played, is a monk. I figured that being one of the few races available without a penalty to a stat that a monk could use, and a penalty to the one dump stat for a monk. I even considered going the sacred fist route. But that card just collects dust.
garyjohnson 07-31-07, 07:31 PM	Actually most people were uninterested about Snow elves, for several reasons. 3. People don't have much of a roleplay reason to play a snow elf, whilst most people like the challenge or humor of a kobold. My wife's snow elf is now 3rd level - he's a follower of Vatun, searching the world for the Five Blades of Corusk that would free him from his imprisonment. Some regions may have issues, but Perrenland has a Tribe of non evil Kobolds who make excellent assassin vine wine for the region They're goblins, not kobolds - and possibly part of the greater Guurhok confederation (it's been a while since I played the adventure, I'm not sure if they were an independent goblin settlement or not). I think the Guurhok have formally entered into the Covenant of Concatenation, and joined Perrenland as a semi-autonomous non-human clan/canton (like Khundholm and Kershane). Cheers, Gary Johnson
solbergb 07-31-07, 07:43 PM	They're size small and can move 30' They get new feats etc to play with that we can't have without being a kobold. That's enough. Novelty is sufficient - new options are fun. Some will likely turn out pretty strong, some not so (see Centaurs and Asherati - they're pretty good, sometimes very good, but sometimes it really sucks to be one)
clannagh 07-31-07, 07:48 PM	They're goblins, not kobolds - and possibly part of the greater Guurhok confederation (it's been a while since I played the adventure, I'm not sure if they were an independent goblin settlement or not). I think the Guurhok have formally entered into the Covenant of Concatenation, and joined Perrenland as a semi-autonomous non-human clan/canton (like Khundholm and Kershane). Cheers, Gary Johnson Actually we were sent to investigate partly because the peaceful Obad-Hai worshipping Goblin winemakers were having problems with the Guurhok confederation trying to claim there land and the Goblins claimed to have been there far far longer. As for the Guurhok themselves, back around 594 Bildgear signed a treaty recognising the Guurhok nation and making Guurhok a Canton in exchange for Guurhok help against Iuz. Which didnt stop people in our party fireballing the toll collectors and almost starting a diplomatic incident. oh .. and as for kobolds .. Strength 4 and cannot speak common .. what more do you want ?
_metz_ 07-31-07, 10:33 PM	Oh yeah, they were goblins! lol, I got them mixed up with the Kobold Paladin Tajlo. My bad. In any case, perrenland has dealings with usually 'evil' races, and as such a Kobold isn't as outlandish. (wow, mixed up goblins and kobolds, lol my bad!) And Clannagh, if Alvin likes to end the mods, then thats what Alvin can do. just has to deal with the immediate mod ending nature of the event.
Arcane Guyver 08-01-07, 12:26 AM	Kobolds make fantastic spellcasters, and can have a higher starting AC than most other races early on (due to +1 natural armor, which is usually grounds for an automatic +1 level adjustment :)).
Puggle Halfwine 08-01-07, 01:55 AM	I dunno, mostly I see them as another Drizzt to be honest. While I agree in principle, I think that's a bit narrow. RA Salvatore has covered pretty much every cliche in his books; Bruenor is the quintessential dwarf. Is every dwarf a Bruenor clone? Regis is a halfling thief. Is every halfling rogue a Regis rip? Is every human rogue an Artemis wannabe? Every human fighter a Catti-bre? Every dwarven druid a Pikel? Is Ivan (dwarven fighter) a Bruenor (dwarven fighter) clone? I could accept that a drow ranger MIGHT have had at least some inspiration from Drizzt, but I find 'PCs may play Kobolds' == 'PCs may make Drizzt clones'... personally a pretty far stretch. That's like saying EVERY elf irrespective of personality, subrace and class is a Drizzt clone, and the elven subraces have more in common than drow and kobolds...
Pint_Glass_Crusader 08-01-07, 02:22 AM	Whay such a fuss anout Kobolds? Kobolds are a quintessential D&D monster. They are usually the first [evil humanoid] monster that characters come across, and their reliance on traps and fighting "smarter, not harder" has stayed with me since the first time, my first character ever fought them (all those years ago)... and now I get to play one in my favorite campaign... bonus! It's the reason I love writing Kobold based adventures for low level characters. They get to see how teamwork, tactics and planning can make individually weak monsters (and vicariously their own low-level characters) into a credible fighting force. As for my Kobold, I intend making him one of the lesser-used [in my area anyway] support classes... The Marshal! That way, he gets to be a credible support/second-line fighter (even with average stat spread) and buffs his poorer stats with his auras. Also with his (comparatively high) AC and speed he is a repectable flanker for a Rogue (especially with the flank damage bonus aura). Don't underestimate the Kobolds! :evillaugh
Tonus 08-01-07, 02:38 AM	Kobolds are simply *fun*. I still miss my Living Dragonstar kobold pilot/sorcerer. Nothing quite like a kobold with Mage Hand and a sackfull of frag grenades.
KarmaInferno 08-01-07, 11:25 AM	Kobolds are simply *fun*. I still miss my Living Dragonstar kobold pilot/sorcerer. Nothing quite like a kobold with Mage Hand and a sackfull of frag grenades. An aside, but look around for "Starmage Prophecies". They premiered at Origins 2007. You might like it. -karma
bitznarf 08-01-07, 11:33 AM	While I agree in principle, I think that's a bit narrow. RA Salvatore has covered pretty much every cliche in his books; Bruenor is the quintessential dwarf. Is every dwarf a Bruenor clone? Regis is a halfling thief. Is every halfling rogue a Regis rip? Is every human rogue an Artemis wannabe? Every human fighter a Catti-bre? Every dwarven druid a Pikel? Is Ivan (dwarven fighter) a Bruenor (dwarven fighter) clone? I could accept that a drow ranger MIGHT have had at least some inspiration from Drizzt, but I find 'PCs may play Kobolds' == 'PCs may make Drizzt clones'... personally a pretty far stretch. That's like saying EVERY elf irrespective of personality, subrace and class is a Drizzt clone, and the elven subraces have more in common than drow and kobolds... I'm seeing a similar phenomenon, not directly connecting drow and kobolds. Tajlo, Deekin and Meepo clones running around, not kobold versions of Drizzt. When I talk to people about it in real life, I get much the same style of response as I do from those who want to play a dark elf who has turned his back on his fellow drow etc. etc. *Thats* what I see. Not "PCs may play Kobolds' == 'PCs may make Drizzt clones", its more 'players may make Meepo/Deekin/Tajlo clones'.
CrystalBlue 08-01-07, 01:52 PM	Meh...if you're going to worry about clones and cliques in D&D, I suggest you get off this train 3 years ago. Whining about how someone's going to make a kobold bard is just pointless at this point. Better to either suck it up or just drop out now. But why I'm so pumped for kobolds? Singer of Concordance. Oh, the rapture and splender of great Io's song playing itself over and over in my heart and it's gentle caresses into my ears is more euphoric then being able to Power Attack for full and lay waste to thine enemy. His words and song shall ring out over all who travel with me, and they shall see the beauty that their tainted dark hearts are missing...and they shall then see the truth. Or maybe it's just the 30ft movement. Yeah. Probobly that. >.>;; Ak-warrrrrrrrrd... *scampers away*
bitznarf 08-01-07, 01:55 PM	Meh...if you're going to worry about clones and cliques in D&D, I suggest you get off this train 3 years ago. Whining about how someone's going to make a kobold bard is just pointless at this point. Better to either suck it up or just drop out now. I'm not really worried about it, nor do I see it as a problem really. I'm more just making an observation, I am *not* whining thank you very much.
NeSoDak 08-01-07, 04:32 PM	They're size small and can move 30' What about taking advantage of that 30' movement and making a clerical Kobold who worships a god with Celerity as a domain. Does Io have Celerity as a domain? Just think, small, +1 AC, and 40' movement as a cleric. Oh the possibilities!
control freak 08-01-07, 04:57 PM	in short nothing
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 06:07 PM	in short nothing They have tails. Show me another PC race with tails! They should be allowed to wear a third ring on their tails.
solbergb 08-01-07, 06:23 PM	Centaurs have tails.
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 06:41 PM	Centaurs have tails. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have tails, but they're whispy, sissy tails. Can't wear rings on 'em. Plus, Centaurs could only be started in brightsands, eh? Kobolds have little horns! What other PC race has little horns?
control freak 08-01-07, 07:19 PM	They have tails, but they're whispy, sissy tails. (4 hoves to the face) that will learn em
myshkingfh 08-01-07, 07:53 PM	Four hooves!? Centaurs can rake?!
boolean 08-01-07, 08:53 PM	Four hooves!? Centaurs can rake?! Maybe it's a half-bulette? :P
Istaran 08-01-07, 09:07 PM	Point-buy interacts with racial modifiers in interesting ways. For most races this can give an advantage compared to humans, though for kobolds that's a bit of a stretch. The break even point for kobolds is: Str 8-10, Dex 18, Con 8-12, Int 8-18, Wis 8-18, Cha 8-18. That is to say with stats in those ranges your character has the same point-buy cost as a human with the same stats. Your racial modifiers work against you if you have a lower dex or higher str or con. And you have the option of having super-human dex or sub-human str/con to take advantage of your racial mods. Compared to the human (the universal baseline if you will), you give up the bonus feat/skills for: small size - a mixed blessing, adding AC, attack, and hide in exchange for smaller damage dice (for physical attacks) and penalties on many opposed rolls (trip, grapple, disarm, etc). (And unlike other small races, you don't give up land speed) +1 nat armor - Free AC is never bad, and synergizes w/ the small size that way. Darkvision / light sensitivity - not a big deal, IMO. Dazzling isn't that bad, and darkvision tends to not matter because someone in the party needs a light anyways. Assorted skill bonuses - though search is likely to be the only one that matters. So far overall it's a modest specialization advantage - they get better AC and attack rolls for casters and ranged/finnesse characters. So far neither spectacular nor horrible (unless you try to build against their modifiers instead of with them). However, the other unlocks that the card provides makes them much more interesting choices. The rite of passage costs you 100 gp and 1 hp (permanently) (and I expect a TU cost though I see none on the card.. the ritual supposedly takes 9 days of fasting) to gain a 1st level sorc spell as a 1/day SLA, with scaling caster level. There are just so many options for what to do with this, several of them fairly good. Shield comes to mind (as kobold stats make them unlikely to be shield-using classes, and there's no other way I know for a non-sorc/wiz to cast it). I'm sure people can think of better. Racial sub levels and prestige classes offer interesting options I won't go into. The unlocked feats are also nice, particularly for metamagic using sorcerers. And the wing options are interesting though not overly powerful. By the time you can fly (not just glide) plenty of better flight options are available.
Hariman 08-03-07, 01:50 AM	What about taking advantage of that 30' movement and making a clerical Kobold who worships a god with Celerity as a domain. Does Io have Celerity as a domain? Just think, small, +1 AC, and 40' movement as a cleric. Oh the possibilities! Add in Dodge and Mobility to the cleric buffs and you've got yourself a Kobold that can move through dangers quite readily. Kobold Rogues are also a good choice. Sneak Attack makes up for the low str, and if you take the Kobold Rogue alternate class features, you gain a +6 to locating and disabling traps by 8th level. Combined with Tactile Trapsmith, (Dex on Disabling traps, instead of INT) you can get a +21 (11 ranks + 4 dex) to searching for and disabling traps. Without Skill Focus or any other feats. All for one skill rank a level to keep Craft: Trapsmithing high. Kobolds also take no penalties as spellcasters and gain access to some interesting alternate class features, feats, etc. And finally, not only playing a Kobold is about the closest thing to playing a dragon that we will get. It's also going to be fun when the BBEG falls to the lowly little Kobold.
Potato Weasel 08-03-07, 08:22 AM	I want to play a female kobold sorcerer. Just so i can rp her casting disguise self as a halfling, and then have some poor halfling schmoe actually touch her and make his willsave.
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-07, 09:03 AM	Kobolds have little horns! What other PC race has little horns? I'm not sure what the fuss is all about - we're already allowed to play a mostly evil aligned race that uses magic to hide their tails and horns. Gnomes ;)
_metz_ 08-03-07, 11:46 AM	I'm not sure what the fuss is all about - we're already allowed to play a mostly evil aligned race that uses magic to hide their tails and horns. Gnomes ;) Hehehe. Its true. All Gnomes worship Vecna/Tharizdun and do evil things. I seriously have to say, the Kobold access is awesome. I love the Singer of Concordance PrC, and have wanted to do one since I got Races of the Dragon, just for sheer funkiness, and now I can in LG!
myshkingfh 08-04-07, 10:18 AM	Kobolds lay eggs. That's pretty noteworthy. Thousand and one uses for kobold eggs.
Genghis Cohen 08-04-07, 12:51 PM	Kobolds lay eggs. That's pretty noteworthy. Thousand and one uses for kobold eggs.Kobold Benedict?
Potato Weasel 08-05-07, 01:01 AM	On that note, would kobolds get free trail rations, or would it be a bonus to live off the lands dc?
Rerednaw 08-06-07, 03:49 PM	Hehehe. Its true. All Gnomes worship Vecna/Tharizdun and do evil things. I seriously have to say, the Kobold access is awesome. I love the Singer of Concordance PrC, and have wanted to do one since I got Races of the Dragon, just for sheer funkiness, and now I can in LG! Okay, don't have my RDr handy...what's the deal with Singer of Concordance? Sounds like a bard prestige class, what is their forte or hallmark ability?
Hariman 08-06-07, 08:06 PM	[/SIZE] Okay, don't have my RDr handy...what's the deal with Singer of Concordance? Sounds like a bard prestige class, what is their forte or hallmark ability? Singer of Concordance is a full casting divine spellcasting class. You don't gain the normal class features of your prior class, instead you gain a variety of abilities based around synchronizing with the "Song of Io" The abilities range from immunity or bonuses on saves versus Enchantment/compulsion effects. A bonus domain from a set list. A "Sanctuary" type effect, that radiates from your character. A "Globe of Invulnerability" effect, which also radiates from your character. A small, but potentially significant boost to healing spells. (Whether they are used to heal or damage undead) Again centered on your character. A forbiddance like effect, guess where it's centered. The capstone is the ability to take your character and up to 8 others to a "Sphere of Concordance", which is basically a demiplane which is a great place to rest and heal. And a Sphere of Concordance has all the prior effects staked together. (Trust me!) This is gained at level 15, so it won't be much of a factor. Oh, I should mention, these effects, save the final ability, all effects radiate from where you were when you activated them. So they do limit mobility. Damn. Now I have to choose between Singer of Concordance and Dracolexi.
clannagh 08-06-07, 08:21 PM	I'm not sure what the fuss is all about - we're already allowed to play a mostly evil aligned race that uses magic to hide their tails and horns. Gnomes ;) actually I would play a svirfneblin if there was ever a card
Ishindri 08-07-07, 09:53 AM	I have only one thing to contribute, since (as far as I can see) it hasn't been brought up yet. www.tuckerskobolds.com
waytoomuchcoffee 08-07-07, 10:30 PM	Agree, Singer of Concordance is close to Radiant Servant in uberness. Hell, it that PrC even makes Favored Soul into a pretty good class. And for a race that puts so much emphasis on spontaneous casting, why ARE there even clerics?
Hariman 08-07-07, 11:27 PM	Agree, Singer of Concordance is close to Radiant Servant in uberness. Hell, it that PrC even makes Favored Soul into a pretty good class. And for a race that puts so much emphasis on spontaneous casting, why ARE there even clerics? You lose all normal cleric benefits, save spellcasting when you level in Singer of Concordance. AND all of those nice spheres the Singers get vanish if the cleric leaves them. There are also more restrictions in the wording that aren't in what I posted. But it's an excellent defensive class. And I don't think it's quite as Cheesy as the Radiant Servant. Also, the Kobold clerics are there to keep the Kobolds that survive first level alive. Not to mention that Kurtulmak needs acolytes to spread his word to other Kobolds.
TWG_Prometheus 08-10-07, 10:33 AM	But it's an excellent defensive class. And I don't think it's quite as Cheesy as the Radiant Servant. Given that you actually have to give something up for Singer of Concordence (Oh the horror!) I don't see any way it could possibly be as cheesy as the Radiant Servant PrC.
_metz_ 08-10-07, 06:11 PM	Given that you actually have to give something up for Singer of Concordence (Oh the horror!) I don't see any way it could possibly be as cheesy as the Radiant Servant PrC. Its true, you lose turning. But turning undead isn't very draconic anyways...
Hariman 08-10-07, 07:18 PM	Its true, you lose turning. But turning undead isn't very draconic anyways... Well, you only lose Turning PROGRESSION, not Turning itself. So you can still power divine feats, but not as often. And ultra-mooks will still be turn-able. But odds are, a Singer of Concordance will only be able to turn as a fifth level cleric. A Singer to be could take the Turn Energy and Energy Barrier Alternate class features, but they'd both end up falling behind.
bitznarf 08-11-07, 01:43 PM	So you can still power divine feats, but not as often. Not quite true, you can still turn as many times as a straight cleric, its just that the ones based off your cleric level (like traditional turn undead) fall behind.
Hariman 08-11-07, 06:36 PM	Not quite true, you can still turn as many times as a straight cleric, its just that the ones based off your cleric level (like traditional turn undead) fall behind. So you can still bust out Divine Feat effects, they just don't scale anymore. Pretty good. But, at least you do lose something.
bitznarf 08-11-07, 10:59 PM	Most of the good Divine Feats that I have looked at don't scale at all, so they are just as effectivle with one cleric level as they are with 15.