Which way should I go? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Which way should I go? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
myshkingfh
07-28-07, 04:56 PM Assume the following character to start out. He has some uses, but is far from optimized:

Male Deep Halfling
rogue 4
diviner 1
fighter 1

Feats: Spiked Chain Prof, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative
Abilities: S8 D19 C12 I16 W10 C10

The character currently fills the rogue role - good hide, spot, disable device, search, open lock. He creates flanks with the fighters and is in melee a lot. His speed is 50, thanks to a magic hat, so he can often run around melee to set up flanks or harass spell casters. He uses his diviner level mainly to cast critical strike and shield. He wears a mithril chain shirt +1 and faces 10% arcane failure. He's okay and a few things, but doesnt really stand out in any particular area.

I can see two possible futures for my rogue. He could concentrate on melee effectiveness while improving at spell casting, or he could concentrate on spellcasting while improving less as a melee presence.

Which would you do? Please critique or offer suggestions for either of the two builds, but please ultimately pick a winner between the two philosophies.

Concentrate on Melee
R4/d1/f1
f2 = feat, BAB+1
d2 = CL+1, BAB+1
EWM1 = BAB+1, Flurry of chain strikes
USS1 = CL+1, d6 sneak
Spellsword1 = CL+1, BAB+1, -10% arcane failure
USS2 = CL+1, BAB+1
USS3 = CL+1, BAB+1
USS4 = CL+1, BAB+1, d6 Sneak
ranger(?)1 = BAB+1, Track, Favored Enemy

With this build, I end with BAB+12, 4 attacks per round Fort13, Ref13, Will10, CL 11 (with practiced spellcaster) and 4th level spells. I do +4d6 sneak damage. I count 9 feats, 152 skill points and 81hp. I can retrain to keep disable maxed. Nightsong enforcer would be better than Ranger, but I don't currently have access.

...OR...

Concentrate on Spellcasting
r4/d1/f1
*edit*d2 = +1BAB, +1CL*edit*
USS = +1CL, +d6 sneak
SS = +1CL +1BAB, -10% arcane failure
USS = +1CL +1BAB
USS = +1CL +1BAB
USS = +1CL +1BAB, +d6 sneak
USS = +1CL
AT = +1CL
AT = +1CL +1BAB, +d6 sneak

With this build, I end with BAB+10, 2 attacks per round, Fort7, Ref14, Will14, CL 14 (with practiced spellcaster) and 5th level spells. I do +5d6 sneak damage. I count 7 feats, 157 skill points and 72hp. I can retrain to keep disable etc maxed. I also have access to Rauthar, and could see that maybe being used in this build.
Banor
07-28-07, 05:30 PM I think that both are very solid options, I personnally prefer melee and I think that the melee build is slightly superior to the caster one.
jimmy_dowdall
07-28-07, 05:34 PM no matter what you do take your nxt level in uss for gravestrike if nothing else, as for which way to go what does ypour usal group need you to doing most?
myshkingfh
07-28-07, 05:40 PM I don't have a usual group - I've been playing at local game stores and consequently have been in a different group most times. I've been involved in melee a lot more than I have any right to up until now (note my 8 str!). I need USS 2 for grave strike, right? My last mod involved me being utterly useless against an APL+4 ghost, so believe me I'm in the market for gravestrike!
myshkingfh
07-28-07, 05:44 PM Guess there's no real reason I couldn't skip diviner 2 and take USS1 at 7th and USS2 at 8th. I believe I have the skill requirements.
Mommy was an Orc
07-28-07, 05:47 PM I'd go Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1 for the remainder of your levels. +7 BAB, full caster progression, able to cast without ASF in Mithril Chain Shirt.
JamesMaissen
07-28-07, 08:05 PM Assume the following character to start out. He has some uses, but is far from optimized:

Male Deep Halfling
rogue 4
diviner 1
fighter 1

Feats: Spiked Chain Prof, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative
Abilities: S8 D19 C12 I16 W10 C10

With a 12 CON I would tend to go with the build that doesn't focus upon melee. Also you have invested in a 16 INT, which seems a waste not to utilize.

Hmm, actually counting your stats I seem to have you as too many skill points... are you factoring in an item in there?

I assume this is an already existing PC? If not I would suggest retooling the skills to reflect one choice or the other.

-James

Stat breakdown:

STR8 = 2 (offsetting the -2 racial)
INT16=10
WIS10=2
DEX19=10 (+2 racial and +1 level bump)
CON12=4
CHA10=2
This totals 30 points, not 28.
myshkingfh
07-29-07, 12:09 AM done from memory, CHA or WIS must be 8. Sorry!
jimmy_dowdall
07-29-07, 04:54 AM i would train out spiked chain at ur nxt level and take deadly defense, take the masters touch spell and combat expertise you would still be able to use the spiked chain with the masters touch spell and you gain an extra d6 damage when using expertiise for 2 i would have to agree with going the spell casting route as you have more all round usefulness, you can use spells to buff ur combat abilites as other tricks,
myshkingfh
07-30-07, 09:33 AM I'd go Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1 for the remainder of your levels. +7 BAB, full caster progression, able to cast without ASF in Mithril Chain Shirt.

Now, would you really keep with USS after USS 5? It seems to me that at that point, the +1/-1 trap would really kick in for me, because Practiced Spellcaster is already maxed out by my rogue and fighter levels. USS 6 actually seems like it might be weaker than USS5, let alone USS5/Arcane Trickster1.

I have often seen posters say that Arcane Trickster is a weak PrC. I always thought that was because AT has some stiff requirements for entry. Compared to USS6, I get the same spell level advancement, better caster level advancement, same HP, same BAB (is that right?), better saves, fewer skill points but a better skill list. Ranged legerdemain seems like it might occasionally be handy too.

Rogue4/Fighter1/Diviner1/USS5/SS1/AT3?

Another possibility might be Divine Oracle. I need to take the awesomely crappy skill focus knowledge religion (surely the worst feat this side of skill focus knowledge architecture!) but I get Oracle domain, including another +2 to caster level with divination spells. Now, I haven't noticed a lot of divinations where having a really high caster level is all that important. Is DO worth the lousy feat?

Are there other obvious choices I'm overlooking? Or am I just off-base about USS6?

Also, once I have all of these PrCs, how do I describe myself during muster? :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
myshkingfh 07-28-07, 04:56 PM	Assume the following character to start out. He has some uses, but is far from optimized: Male Deep Halfling rogue 4 diviner 1 fighter 1 Feats: Spiked Chain Prof, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative Abilities: S8 D19 C12 I16 W10 C10 The character currently fills the rogue role - good hide, spot, disable device, search, open lock. He creates flanks with the fighters and is in melee a lot. His speed is 50, thanks to a magic hat, so he can often run around melee to set up flanks or harass spell casters. He uses his diviner level mainly to cast critical strike and shield. He wears a mithril chain shirt +1 and faces 10% arcane failure. He's okay and a few things, but doesnt really stand out in any particular area. I can see two possible futures for my rogue. He could concentrate on melee effectiveness while improving at spell casting, or he could concentrate on spellcasting while improving less as a melee presence. Which would you do? Please critique or offer suggestions for either of the two builds, but please ultimately pick a winner between the two philosophies. Concentrate on Melee R4/d1/f1 f2 = feat, BAB+1 d2 = CL+1, BAB+1 EWM1 = BAB+1, Flurry of chain strikes USS1 = CL+1, d6 sneak Spellsword1 = CL+1, BAB+1, -10% arcane failure USS2 = CL+1, BAB+1 USS3 = CL+1, BAB+1 USS4 = CL+1, BAB+1, d6 Sneak ranger(?)1 = BAB+1, Track, Favored Enemy With this build, I end with BAB+12, 4 attacks per round Fort13, Ref13, Will10, CL 11 (with practiced spellcaster) and 4th level spells. I do +4d6 sneak damage. I count 9 feats, 152 skill points and 81hp. I can retrain to keep disable maxed. Nightsong enforcer would be better than Ranger, but I don't currently have access. ...OR... Concentrate on Spellcasting r4/d1/f1 editd2 = +1BAB, +1CLedit USS = +1CL, +d6 sneak SS = +1CL +1BAB, -10% arcane failure USS = +1CL +1BAB USS = +1CL +1BAB USS = +1CL +1BAB, +d6 sneak USS = +1CL AT = +1CL AT = +1CL +1BAB, +d6 sneak With this build, I end with BAB+10, 2 attacks per round, Fort7, Ref14, Will14, CL 14 (with practiced spellcaster) and 5th level spells. I do +5d6 sneak damage. I count 7 feats, 157 skill points and 72hp. I can retrain to keep disable etc maxed. I also have access to Rauthar, and could see that maybe being used in this build.
Banor 07-28-07, 05:30 PM	I think that both are very solid options, I personnally prefer melee and I think that the melee build is slightly superior to the caster one.
jimmy_dowdall 07-28-07, 05:34 PM	no matter what you do take your nxt level in uss for gravestrike if nothing else, as for which way to go what does ypour usal group need you to doing most?
myshkingfh 07-28-07, 05:40 PM	I don't have a usual group - I've been playing at local game stores and consequently have been in a different group most times. I've been involved in melee a lot more than I have any right to up until now (note my 8 str!). I need USS 2 for grave strike, right? My last mod involved me being utterly useless against an APL+4 ghost, so believe me I'm in the market for gravestrike!
myshkingfh 07-28-07, 05:44 PM	Guess there's no real reason I couldn't skip diviner 2 and take USS1 at 7th and USS2 at 8th. I believe I have the skill requirements.
Mommy was an Orc 07-28-07, 05:47 PM	I'd go Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1 for the remainder of your levels. +7 BAB, full caster progression, able to cast without ASF in Mithril Chain Shirt.
JamesMaissen 07-28-07, 08:05 PM	Assume the following character to start out. He has some uses, but is far from optimized: Male Deep Halfling rogue 4 diviner 1 fighter 1 Feats: Spiked Chain Prof, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative Abilities: S8 D19 C12 I16 W10 C10 With a 12 CON I would tend to go with the build that doesn't focus upon melee. Also you have invested in a 16 INT, which seems a waste not to utilize. Hmm, actually counting your stats I seem to have you as too many skill points... are you factoring in an item in there? I assume this is an already existing PC? If not I would suggest retooling the skills to reflect one choice or the other. -James Stat breakdown: STR8 = 2 (offsetting the -2 racial) INT16=10 WIS10=2 DEX19=10 (+2 racial and +1 level bump) CON12=4 CHA10=2 This totals 30 points, not 28.
myshkingfh 07-29-07, 12:09 AM	done from memory, CHA or WIS must be 8. Sorry!
jimmy_dowdall 07-29-07, 04:54 AM	i would train out spiked chain at ur nxt level and take deadly defense, take the masters touch spell and combat expertise you would still be able to use the spiked chain with the masters touch spell and you gain an extra d6 damage when using expertiise for 2 i would have to agree with going the spell casting route as you have more all round usefulness, you can use spells to buff ur combat abilites as other tricks,
myshkingfh 07-30-07, 09:33 AM	I'd go Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1 for the remainder of your levels. +7 BAB, full caster progression, able to cast without ASF in Mithril Chain Shirt. Now, would you really keep with USS after USS 5? It seems to me that at that point, the +1/-1 trap would really kick in for me, because Practiced Spellcaster is already maxed out by my rogue and fighter levels. USS 6 actually seems like it might be weaker than USS5, let alone USS5/Arcane Trickster1. I have often seen posters say that Arcane Trickster is a weak PrC. I always thought that was because AT has some stiff requirements for entry. Compared to USS6, I get the same spell level advancement, better caster level advancement, same HP, same BAB (is that right?), better saves, fewer skill points but a better skill list. Ranged legerdemain seems like it might occasionally be handy too. Rogue4/Fighter1/Diviner1/USS5/SS1/AT3? Another possibility might be Divine Oracle. I need to take the awesomely crappy skill focus knowledge religion (surely the worst feat this side of skill focus knowledge architecture!) but I get Oracle domain, including another +2 to caster level with divination spells. Now, I haven't noticed a lot of divinations where having a really high caster level is all that important. Is DO worth the lousy feat? Are there other obvious choices I'm overlooking? Or am I just off-base about USS6? Also, once I have all of these PrCs, how do I describe myself during muster? :)