Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 06-02-07, 09:27 AM	OK, No I'm not a newbe but with wizards I am. The last time I remember playing a wizard was like 1977. I've read several threads, but most talk about a specialist wizard, or a wizard/_____ concept. They don't fit me well. What I do know (very little) This is going to be for the Greyhawk Ruins arc. I'm looking at a Grey Elf (for the +2 Int) or a Human (for the feat and skill points). I like the idea of a mage not a specialist since I'm not very familiar with all the spells and I don't think I'd do well specializing, but I'm not ruling it out. I'd like to live a long time, not a quick shot/one shot character. I'd like to max out the spellcraft knowledge type skills. I want to do more than combat/buff for the game. I'd like to know a bunch of languages (but which ones?) or is Comprehend Language better for this. What I don't know (a lot) I just don't know how to build a wizard. I don't know what classes to take, or to stay straight wizards. I don't know what feats to take, or the best skills. I have no clue on how to craft, if I should craft, if crafting feats are better than metamagic feats. What spells to take (though I have been reading some threads on this subject). How sharing spells works (I know this is done a lot) Also, I don't need to be locked in to the Greyhawk region. For example, if there is a region that makes Elf Wizard Substitution levels open at character creation, I'd consider that. Wow, looked back and see I really don't know very much and need a lot of help. I also know this is a great place with the best people to get good advice from. Thank's in advance. -Swiftbrook
Ralis 06-02-07, 11:11 AM	Alright, One thing to realize is that by getting the +2 int from the grey elf equals the skill point bonus of being human. So the real question becomes do you want a bonus feat at first level, or the elf racial abilities? It would depend on what you want to do with the character. I'd also go straight wizard, for the simple reason that as you get access to spells that need access you can use them right away, that might make a difference in Greyhawk ruins (I haven't played that) Taking Craft Wonderous Item at 3rd level is a must, then you can craft your own stat boosting items. (The DMG can give you more information on crafting) but as far as other metamagic feats go, I'd take empower spell at first level.
UMiskatonic 06-02-07, 11:27 AM	There is nothing wrong with wizard 16. You can have yourself a grand ol' time this way. It's basically a tradeoff. A straight, non-specialized wizard is VERY versatile, one of the most versatile characters in the game. With the new retraining options, you don't need to worry too much about going 'the wrong direction', either. There's more wiggle room than you think. Pretty much any wizard build is going to start with wizard 5, for the bonus feat. That gives you about a year to test-drive your wizard, and decide where you want to go. I sketched out some options below, a generalist wizard can switch back and forth fairly easily. Options: Utility wizard. This guy casts spells on the rest of the party, mostly. Doesn't need sky-high INT, does need a lot of spells. Use scribe scroll well, and get a second craft feat quickly. Typical move "I cast fly on the barbarian". Options: Disabler. This guy casts spells on the bad guys, normally save-or-die types. Needs a lot of INT, and feats like Spell Focus to push those DC's sky high. Options: Rays and Orbs. This guy needs dex, not int, and usually point-blank and precise. Can serve as an okay archer if he has to. Elf is nice for the free longbow proficiency, also does well with thrown weapons like tanglefoot bags. You can also be a summoner or an evoker, though I personally think those are less-effective ways to go.
UMiskatonic 06-02-07, 11:35 AM	At low levels, I'd start with one rank in each knowledge skill. That way, you at least get to roll, and your INT should help quite a lot. Keep track of which ones come up, and put future skill points there. For Greyhawk ruins, I'd suggest K(dungeoneering) to start. I'd go with Comprehend languages. Remember that you get scribe scroll as a bonus feat. USE IT. You should have at least one CL scroll in your pack at all times. Remember, you won't have the diplomacy skills or the CHA to really make use of skill points in Speak Language. You'll get bonus languages from INT, that should be enough. As for the comparison between crafting and meta-magic, that's tough. They are both good. My halfling rogue1/wizard 5 is going to take Craft Wondrous and Empower Spell at 6th level. Sharing spells is available when there's another wizard at the table. So far, this has been about 1 game in 3. Results may vary. If there's a spell in her spell book that you want, ask to scribe it. Assuming 'yes', you make a spellcraft roll, and then pay the cost of scribing a new spell. Read the chunks under 'wizard' and 'spellcraft' again in the PHB, and you should get an idea.
UMiskatonic 06-02-07, 11:35 AM	And start with a 14 CON. You won't be sorry.
Lupo 06-02-07, 11:40 AM	OK, No I'm not a newbe but with wizards I am. The last time I remember playing a wizard was like 1977. I've read several threads, but most talk about a specialist wizard, or a wizard/_____ concept. They don't fit me well. What I do know (very little) This is going to be for the Greyhawk Ruins arc. I'm looking at a Grey Elf (for the +2 Int) or a Human (for the feat and skill points). I like the idea of a mage not a specialist since I'm not very familiar with all the spells and I don't think I'd do well specializing, but I'm not ruling it out. I'd like to live a long time, not a quick shot/one shot character. I'd like to max out the spellcraft knowledge type skills. I want to do more than combat/buff for the game. I'd like to know a bunch of languages (but which ones?) or is Comprehend Language better for this. What I don't know (a lot) I just don't know how to build a wizard. I don't know what classes to take, or to stay straight wizards. I don't know what feats to take, or the best skills. I have no clue on how to craft, if I should craft, if crafting feats are better than metamagic feats. What spells to take (though I have been reading some threads on this subject). How sharing spells works (I know this is done a lot) Also, I don't need to be locked in to the Greyhawk region. For example, if there is a region that makes Elf Wizard Substitution levels open at character creation, I'd consider that. Wow, looked back and see I really don't know very much and need a lot of help. I also know this is a great place with the best people to get good advice from. Thank's in advance. -Swiftbrook straight wizards are fine, and the bonus feats at 5th, 10th and 15th level are at least as powerful as some not-so-powergamerish prestige classes ;) some obvious prestige classes: fate spinner (CAr) divine oracle (CD) loremaster - this one might suit your "mr-knows-it-all" (DMG) mage of the arcane order (CAr) geometer (CAr) archmage (DMG) some more obscure ones: earth dreamer (RS) holy scourge (CM) - starts with a non spellcaster progression level nightmare spinner (CM) - starts with a non spellcaster progression level argent savant (CAr) - starts with a non spellcaster progression level elemental savant (CAr) unseen seer (CM) wild soul (CM) - starts with a non spellcaster progression level with an ueber intelligent grey elf - you start with INT 20?? - you are just doing fine with every sort of wizard style. obvious feats for an arcanist is everything that either increases raw damage (empower spell, maximize spell), make saves more difficult (spell focus, heighten spell) or reduces resistances (spell penetration) or make your spells more versatile (energy substitution, sculpt spell, split ray). craft wondrous items is a no-brainer for a wizard, it is only a question at what level to take it :) ciao martin m.
LeeShort 06-02-07, 01:41 PM	with an ueber intelligent grey elf - you start with INT 20?? - you are just doing fine with every sort of wizard style. . I agree with most of Lupo's advice, but not this part. Wizards who depend heavily on spells that give a saving throw can't go wrong with 20 int. Other wizards really don't get their money's worth for the build points -- buffers especially. My Clr1/Wiz6/[depends on access] double wand wielder would be crippled if he'd bought a 20 int instead of 18. There are straight wizard builds where the extra feat from going human, or the extra con/dex, are more valuable than the 20 int...even buying that grey elf's strength up to 8 can save your life (it certainly saved Thalion's once).
JamesMaissen 06-02-07, 03:06 PM	OK, No I'm not a newbe but with wizards I am. The last time I remember playing a wizard was like 1977. I've read several threads, but most talk about a specialist wizard, or a wizard/_____ concept. They don't fit me well. -Swiftbrook Okay first things first. You probably want to think on this for quite awhile before committing to a character. General advice: I would avoid any PrCs or classes that don't advance your wizard casting. Don't go too crazy with PrCs.. the entrance costs for them can be higher than you otherwise think and if nothing else your saves will be weak in FORT and REF from doing so. Specific advice: One of the things a typical wizard brings to the table in 3.5 is knowledge rolls. Identifying creatures encountered or picking up on important plot points can be invaluable. Simple sample build: Grey Elf STR 6 (Shadow bait) INT 20 WIS 08 (good thing will is favored by all of your classes) DEX 16 CON 12 (Empowered false life is your friend) CHA 08 (optionally WIS 10, DEX 10, CON 14 or DEX 12, CON 14) Wizard1 Empower (or Improved Init retrained to it by 7th at the latest) Wizard2 Wizard3 Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion (could also be delay until 5th via retrain) Wizard4 Wizard5 Craft Wondrous Items Wiz5/DivineOracle1 Feat to taste (perhaps retrained later even) Wiz5/DO2 Wiz5/DO2/Loremaster1+ Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (maxed) Know: Dungeoneering (maxed) Know: Planes (maxed) Know: all others (1 rank each) (note the Divine Oracle skills list is limited so Dungeoneering and Planes will suffer a little during those two levels, but Loremaster's higher skill points and your INT bump will quickly overcome that) Once you get into Loremaster levels pick up a few more languages as they have it as a class skill. For Loremaster secrets I recommend the save bonus ones, likewise I would tend towards either weasel or rat familiar to further those saves even more). Don't choose the bonus feat until you have a feat that you wish. If you specialize in a school of magic consider Metamagic School Focus. -James
magebeast 06-02-07, 06:29 PM	Another option if you want to go for a holy-flavored wizard is Sacred Exorcist. It advances generic caster levels, and the skill requirements are cake for a wizard. You'll just need to pick up Dismissal as early as possible in order to qualify.
Alma 06-03-07, 03:42 AM	I am going to highly recomend mindbender telepathy and good fort saves.
Swiftbrook 06-03-07, 06:43 AM	OK, I'm starting to get a good picture. From all your great advice here's the first step for my wizard. Grey Elf Str 6 Dex 16 Int 18 Con 14 Wis 10 Cha 8 It's kind of a stat mutt. I traded no penalty in Wis (and will save) for a -2 penalty in Str. I'm not sure about this. I've never played a character with a stat that low, but Str doesn't do much for me and Wis is a save bonus. Still debating that one. Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (high) Know: Dungeoneering (high) Know: Planes (high) Know: all others (1 rank each) Decipher Scripe (at least 1) Working on feats next. Wizard1 ???? Wizard2 Wizard3 Craft Wondrous Items Wizard4 Wizard5 ??? -Swiftbrook
_metz_ 06-03-07, 07:15 AM	OK, I'm starting to get a good picture. From all your great advice here's the first step for my wizard. Grey Elf Str 6 Dex 16 Int 18 Con 14 Wis 10 Cha 8 It's kind of a stat mutt. I traded no penalty in Wis (and will save) for a -2 penalty in Str. I'm not sure about this. I've never played a character with a stat that low, but Str doesn't do much for me and Wis is a save bonus. Still debating that one. Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (high) Know: Dungeoneering (high) Know: Planes (high) Know: all others (1 rank each) Decipher Scripe (at least 1) Working on feats next. Wizard1 ???? Wizard2 Wizard3 Craft Wondrous Items Wizard4 Wizard5 ??? -Swiftbrook I like the con 14 (con 12 characters die so often) buuuut if you are a non specialised wizard, the Int of 20 could come in really handy. Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 13 (First stat bump here) Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Thats more bonus spells, one higher to every DC, and for a skills based character and linguist, thats an extra language, 4 skill points initially, and another skill point every level. Just an idea. Alternatively, if you are going Int 18 then: Dwarf: Str: 8 Dex: 14 Con: 16 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 6 Just an idea. The thing is the tradeoff of which is more important, Con or Dex. Furthermore, Int 20 is kinda the point of grey elf :) As for feats, Empower is a good one for Wizard 5. Knowledge Religion is useful for loremaster and Divine Oracle Synergy CWI at 3rd is a given, And Sculpt spell at 6th level is pretty important. Wizard1 Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion Wizard2 Wizard3 Craft Wondrous Items Wizard4 Wizard5 Empower Divine Oracle1: Sculpt Spell Divine Oracle2: 'Evasion' FatesSpinner1: Spin FatesSpinner2: Fickle Finger of Fate (useful for any caster) Feat ??? Wizard6: +1 BAB and Saves Loremaster1: Loremaster2: Feat ??? Loremaster3: Loremaster4: Loremaster5: Feat ??? Other feats are dependent on what you want to do with your character. sculpt spell is just awesome, so should be taken.
Swiftbrook 06-03-07, 12:13 PM	Str: 6 Dex: 14 Con: 13 (First stat bump here) Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Thats more bonus spells, one higher to every DC, and for a skills based character and linguist, thats an extra language, 4 skill points initially, and another skill point every level. (snip) Wizard1 Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion OK, I've been thinking about my stats again. I like this one because at 12th level you've improved bonuses on two stats. What am I missing here? Why Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion? -Swiftbrook
_metz_ 06-03-07, 12:15 PM	OK, I've been thinking about my stats again. I like this one because at 12th level you've improved bonuses on two stats. What am I missing here? Why Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion? -Swiftbrook Divine Oracle needs it to qualify, and you need Skill Focus in a Knowledge for Loremaster. (Check the prereqs for each class, use heroforge if necessary)
Genghis Cohen 06-03-07, 01:13 PM	Okay first things first. You probably want to think on this for quite awhile before committing to a character. General advice: I would avoid any PrCs or classes that don't advance your wizard casting. Don't go too crazy with PrCs.. the entrance costs for them can be higher than you otherwise think and if nothing else your saves will be weak in FORT and REF from doing so. Specific advice: One of the things a typical wizard brings to the table in 3.5 is knowledge rolls. Identifying creatures encountered or picking up on important plot points can be invaluable. Simple sample build: Grey Elf STR 6 (Shadow bait) INT 20 WIS 08 (good thing will is favored by all of your classes) DEX 16 CON 12 (Empowered false life is your friend) CHA 08 These were the starting stats for my gray elven wizard. He's now 9th level, from Keoland, and he hasn't died (yet.) All stat bumps are to intelligence. I wouldn't underestimate the value of a 20 int. Not only do you have more spells, but your DCs are one higher. It does make a difference. DC17 for Glitterdust at 3rd level is wonderful. Also, the 16 dex is valuable. You hit on more touch attacks, and your AC, reflex saves and initiative improve. I avoid spells that make me a target, but I'll cast them when needed. Debuffing and battlefield control are my first options. When a certain red dragon in a certain mod failed his will save by 1 on a Slow spell, that 20 int buy at first level saved party members from death.
Maesto 06-03-07, 02:08 PM	I've played a wizard from 1 to 16 (well, 14 now, because the game that would've levelled him to 16 knocked him back to 13...) using the grey elf "dump strength charisma and wisdom" stats that people have been bandying about. I'd really consider taking an odd stat somewhere, such as int 19 and bumping it three times (pick strength up, or strength and wisdom, or something). Even 18 and getting more con doesn't work too badly. I'd suggest considering more than strength 6 - shadows _will_ kill you instantly, and you really don't want to be hit with a weight load limit (which can be crippling). Unless you're sure you're going to pick up access to a book of something, Int 29 just doesn't help you. Knowledge skills, you don't actually need arcana all that often. The times it comes up are magical beasts, dragons, and golems, and most of the time you don't need a huge modifier to get the skill bonus. I'd recommend religion (comes up often), and the planes (ditto) moreso. If you go for loremaster, put 5 ranks in knowledge history for a bonus to the lore skill (like bardic knowledge). I'd recommend at least one rank in all knowledges, regardless. With spellcraft, I've never seen a DC above 35. I'd recommend a few ranks in decipher script so that you can hit the DC 30 if you need to, preferably by taking ten. Craft alchemy comes up a few times (detect poison, anybody?). Concentration is a must. If you're going for loremaster, max out ranks in UMD. Then you can use scrolls to craft just about anything. Make sure you have 5 ranks in decipher script for the synergy. Also, if you can UMD a scroll of restoration, it might be really really useful at some point in time. Shop around for a good metaorg. I'd recommend the Perrenland one (Den Zauber), because it's got great bonuses and a library, but you really need Perrenland mods to advance in it (and join to start with too, from memory). The Ratik wizard metaorg (or rather, bunch of meta-organisations) provide some really cute bonuses/feat and PRC access/skill bonuses, and doesn't require you to ever actually go to Ratik. A bunch of alternate class features are also offered. (ok fine, I wrote the thing, so this is a shameless plug but hey :) Metaorg should be out by this coming Friday). Otherwise, I'd recommend AGAINST craft wand, unless you don't plan on playing this character much, or plan on retraining it out. There aren't many wands that you want to make is the problem. I'd recommend Empower and Quicken Spell feats at some point in time, if you plan on doing damage. My wizard is a contingency-based wizard (not the spell though) - he's got something to counter whatever is thrown at us. This usually means taking a whole lot of spells that don't get used often, but are really important when they do get used - true seeing, greater dispel magic, disintegrate, etc. However, in recent modules where all that's been needed was raw damage, he was outshone by wizards who blew all of their high level slots on quickened and empowered damage dealing spells (Yeah, I'd love to see how they went in Lost But Not Forgotten...). Other than that, I guess there's a whole slather of PRCs available. Note that a Wizard 15 is just as optimal as most of the prestige classes, simply because they have freedom of their feats. Every toy you pick up in a PRC costs you in feats - archmage needs three relatively useless feats, divine oracle trades evasion for skill focus (knowledge religion), loremaster trades a skill focus and two feats you were going to take anyway for skillpoints and better saves and neat little tricks. Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil trades three feats for it's powerful tricks. Mage of the Arcane Order is actually feat-neutral, which is kinda cool, and getting spellpool access is really useful. Sacred Exorcist doesn't require feats, it just takes away the 10th level feat if you go into it. Anyway... Have fun =) Cheers, Jolyon
_metz_ 06-03-07, 02:18 PM	Maesto, I would like to point out that fatespinner gives you such cool abilities without needing a feat... ONly costs 5 Ranks in Profession gambler. Oh and Knowledge Arcana which you would max anyways. Really can't go past at least 2 Fatespinner...
Timlagor 06-03-07, 05:06 PM	Wizard 15 is simply not as powerful as: Wiz5/DO2/Loremaster 8 Wiz 11/Fastepinner 4 Any Io7V. Con13 with the intention of bumping at 4th is horrible: you should always plan to bump the attribute that you spend the most points on. Start with Int19/Con14 instead and you can have an extra point of Strength (well worth 7 skill points imo ..though I do prefer Con12 on my Grey Elves)
Fakegoatee 06-03-07, 05:13 PM	Wizard 15 is simply not as powerful as: Wiz5/DO2/Loremaster 8 Wiz 11/Fastepinner 4 Any Io7V. Why Wiz5/DO2/Lor8 rather than Wiz5/DO3/Lor7? The third DO level looks better to me than the eighth Lor level, or am I missing something? (I'm not saying Wiz15 is as powerful as Wiz5/DO2/Lor8, BTW. I'm just curious about your example.)
Cardinal Teplin 06-03-07, 07:30 PM	It comes down to what kind of wizard you want be. You can sit on the fence to a certain extent when it comes to stats, but feats are where you really need to commit yourself. Fortunately, we have retraining now...:-) One point that hasn't been mentioned is the blaster mage concept. If you want to do a lot of damage you need metamagic. Probably empower, but other combinations are possible. Damage almost always caps at level x d6, to get any higher you need metamagic. Empowered scorching ray does 12d6 x 1.5, and is a 4th level spell. Polar ray, an 8th level spell, does 15d6. Assuming you want to blast things, expect to get empower, or similar. Of course there is nothing wrong with a mage that doesn't do much damage (I play one). There is plenty of other things to do, and fighters always do more damage than mages. But it can be handy when, for whatever reason, you need to damage something quickly, or the fighters can't reach the target. Incidently, I'd personally go for stats like so. grey elf str 6 int 20 wis 8 dex 16 con 12 chr 8 Str is low, but you can ask other party members to carry stuff, and it's not like you wear armour. Dex is important for rays, and AC, and because you'll do more damage with a x-bow than spells until you hit about 3rd level. Con 12 is a little low, but don't kid yourself that you can survive in combat anyway - you should be treading on eggshells, because wizards aren't very tough. And int 20 gives you more spells. An extra 1st level spell slot all the way to 8th level An extra 2nd level spell slot after your second stat bump at 8th An extra 3rd level spell slot after you get a headband of intellect An extra 4th level spell slot after you upgrade it once Not to mention +1 to all knowledges, spellcraft, search checks, and of course, save DCs. To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Wizards are hard to mess up, because their spells are standardised. Don't give up even a single level of spellcasting unless you really know what you are doing, and be prepared to spend money either on spells, or on a Boccob's Blessed Book, because either route is very expensive.
Timlagor 06-04-07, 12:03 AM	Do2/Lor8 because a) I wasn't thinking terribly hard b) I don't like building to deadlines -ie I assume that the character will keep going I have exactly the stats CTEp mentions and I think they're great btw. Damage does require metamagic and is mostly significantly less powerful than other effects that are available.
Lomiat 06-04-07, 12:32 AM	I'll echo the sentiments of those who recommend the stat buy of: STR 6, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 20, WIS 8, and CHA 8. I've played a wizard/divine oracle/loremaster to 13th level now, and I'm glad I paid for the 20 INT, especially now that I've found access to a Tome of Clear Thoughts +1 for my wizard (after finding Tome access for 3! of my other PCs). The extra DC, spell slots, and skill points easily outweigh the chances of getting slammed by a shadow (pretty much your only STR concern). The DEX is best for initiative. The AC and ranged touch attack bonuses are less of a concern; initiative is where it's at, and I wish I'd bought a 16 DEX with my wizard (I bought a 14 and 10 WIS -- which was later cursed down to a 9 WIS). Furthermore, since no one's recommended it yet, I'll recommend Improved Initiative. Take it early in the build if you can. It's best if you play a battlefield-control wizard (typically the most powerful), but if you're a blaster mage it's also handy to catch bad guys while they're all bunched together. Craft Wondrous Item is almost a default feat, by the way. As a wizard, especially if you take levels of Loremaster to gain UMD ranks, your access will essentially reflect everything you've ever seen in the Item access portion of your ARs. While it's nice for the ability to craft items before you could buy them (Headband of Intellect +4 when you only have 9k in the bank), it's best use is to keep your item access fresh well beyond the "adventure access" deadlines. That, and it will allow you to craft a Boccob's Blessed Book as soon as you can cast Secret Page. Free spells are wonderful. As others have said, it's somewhat hard to screw up a wizard unless you build it ***really*** badly. You'll find what spells you enjoy casting, and you may find that you'll be surprised by the delight you take from tripping a 14 HD golem with Grease instead of doing less-than-show-stopping damage from an Orb of Acid. At any rate, playing a wizard is all about enjoying the chance to cast the spells that you like to cast. (And to that extent, I'd recommend Quicken Spell around 12th level simply to be able to cast MORE spells before the combats finish.) I've seen wizard builds that have been truly effective as: summoners, battlefield control experts, save-or-die machines, boom mages, buffers, and --yes, hard to believe -- counterspellers. Eventually, it comes down to recognizing your playstyle, your favorite spells (or your tendency to prepare different spells each adventure), and to learning how to use those tools to make a good contribution at your table.
Swiftbrook 06-04-07, 05:59 PM	So based on recomondations ... grey elf str 6 int 20 wis 8 dex 16 (alt 14) con 12 (alt 13) chr 8 Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (high) Know: Dungeoneering (high) Know: Planes (high) Know: all others (1 rank each) Decipher Scripe (at least 1) Wizard 1: Greyhawk Method Wizard 2 Wizard 3: Craft Wonderous Item Wizard 4: +1 Int Wizard 5: Empower Spell or Skill Focus
Genghis Cohen 06-04-07, 08:50 PM	Furthermore, since no one's recommended it yet, I'll recommend Improved Initiative...I picked this up at 6th level. I should have gotten it earlier. I also have a +1 mithral buckler with that crest from HoB that gives +1 on Initiative. That's +8 and I haven't crafted Gloves of Dex yet. Eventually I'll be +11 on Initiative without a Marshall. Its very important to remember that when you win intiative, think twice before you blast the bad guys in the 1st round. That just makes you a target. There are plenty of highly effective options like battlefield control, debuffing, and buffing. My stats at 1st level were this: St 6, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 8, Cha 8 My build has been this: 1. Wizard - Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Scribe Scroll 2. Wizard 3. Wizard - Spell Focus (Abjuration) 4. Wizard 5. Wizard - Craft Wondrous Items 6. Ruathar - Improved Initiative 7. Ruathar 8. Wizard 9. Ruathar - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) 10th level will be rather obvious: Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
_metz_ 06-04-07, 10:30 PM	So based on recomondations ... grey elf str 6 int 20 wis 8 dex 16 (alt 14) con 12 (alt 13) chr 8 Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (high) Know: Dungeoneering (high) Know: Planes (high) Know: all others (1 rank each) Decipher Script (at least 1) Wizard 1: Greyhawk Method Wizard 2 Wizard 3: Craft wondrous Item Wizard 4: +1 Int Wizard 5: Empower Spell or Skill Focus At wiz 5 you can ONLY choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery Take Skill Focus at Level 1 If i were you. Then Divine Oracle at 6-7, Fatespinner at 8-9 (only need 5 ranks profession gambler) Then Wizard level 6 then 5 Loremaster (lots of skillpoints speak language class skill, etc). I am not a big fan of Greyhawk method, it looks funky, but I would personally rather have a metamagic feat. Spells can be bought, but feats cannot, so a feat that gives you spells in your spell book seems less good to me.
Lupo 06-04-07, 10:48 PM	At wiz 5 you can ONLY choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or Spell Mastery Take Skill Focus at Level 1 If i were you. Then Divine Oracle at 6-7, Fatespinner at 8-9 (only need 5 ranks profession gambler) Then Wizard level 6 then 5 Loremaster (lots of skillpoints speak language class skill, etc). I am not a big fan of Greyhawk method, it looks funky, but I would personally rather have a metamagic feat. Spells can be bought, but feats cannot, so a feat that gives you spells in your spell book seems less good to me. yea greyhawk method seems to be a booby trap to me, just calculate what you actually get for a FEAT (one of the most limited resources to almost all characters but fighters) - it is: 200 gp at level 1, 200 gp at level 2, 400 gp at level 3, 400 gp at level 4, 600 gp at level 5, 600 gp at level 6, 800 gp at level 7 800 gp at level 8 1000 gp at level 9 6000 gp AND SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE YOU CRAFT YOUR BBB - end of money saving - and slow half refund of the invested money if you hadn't taken greyhawk method. let's assume some more gp for some scrolls to learn spells and you end up with some 8000 gp / 2 = 4000 gp that you save - that is not enough for a feat even if you retrain it at level 9 or 10. if you play enough tables with fellow arcanists, you will do fairly well without this feat. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 06-05-07, 12:39 AM	Not to mention you would retrain it away by level 5 so you can take Divine Oracle at 6. Save 400 gold. Spend 500 gold retraining it and 4 TUS. NO brainer imo.
Lomiat 06-05-07, 12:53 AM	It's not necessarily best to have your wizard jump into a PrC at 6th level. 6th level Wizard gives +1 to all saves across the board, a somewhat inconsequential +1 BAB, and continues with the spell progression (and the spell progression is, I'm pretty sure, what defines the wizard). That said, a perfectly good Divine Oracle/Loremaster/Fatespinner build might go: Wiz 1 --> 6 Divine Oracle 7 --> 8 Loremaster 9 --> 11 Fatespinner 12 --> 15 OR, the build my wizard's taking (gives him Uncanny Dodge = tough to assassinate): Wiz 1 --> 6 Divine Oracle 7 --> 8 Loremaster 9 --> 11 Divine Oracle 12 --> 13 Fatespinner 14 --> 15 Though I'll abandon Fatespinner and all it's mechanical goodness for Ruathar if I gain access. It just fits the character better, and with full caster progression, I've really no concerns that it'll leave my wizard "underpowered."
Lupo 06-05-07, 08:10 AM	Not to mention you would retrain it away by level 5 so you can take Divine Oracle at 6. Save 400 gold. Spend 500 gold retraining it and 4 TUS. NO brainer imo. after thinking about it . . . . as the feat "saves" you money for getting spells, i would put it in the same box as crafting feats. so the moment you retrain it away you have to chip in the saved gold pieces. but this will be up to be circle ruling - at least. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 06-05-07, 08:56 AM	Either way I would steer clear of it if I were you Swiftbrook. Its a funky sounding nice fluff feat, but not ACTUALLY that useful unfortunately.
Cardinal Teplin 06-05-07, 09:29 AM	yea greyhawk method seems to be a booby trap to me, just calculate what you actually get for a FEAT (one of the most limited resources to almost all characters but fighters) - it is: <snip> if you play enough tables with fellow arcanists, you will do fairly well without this feat. What the feat gets you is not money saved so much as additional access. Above 3rd level spells you can't buy scrolls without access, and while you might adventure with another wizard who just happens to have all the spells you need or want, you might not. I have a 8th level wizard who has only twice in his entire career adventurered with someone he can copy spells from. And of course, since they're also relying on copying spells from other people, and wizards tend to take advice from eachother and watch eachother in action, you can end up with entire regions of people with more or less the same spells. People have been wondering why my character keeps on getting obscure spells like master's touch and augment familiar. It's because I'm not likely to ever share a table with someone who has those spells in his book.
TWG_Prometheus 06-05-07, 09:32 AM	Just to give a little different perspective... A build that I'm considering right now is a Human Generalist Wizard with Arcane Disciple(Healing). Just adding a bit of healing capacity gives you a lot more versatility once you start getting enough spells per day to memorize Cure Light and/or Cure Serious Wounds. Unlike a Cleric, you don't even have to get into melee to use those spells if you have a familiar that can fly quickly or otherwise get to the injured party member. (Although the familiar does have to enter the party member's space to deliver the touch) The downside to the whole thing is that you have to invest in Wisdom, probably around 14 or so. Although it costs a spell level at entry, I'm also strongly considering the Holy Scourge class for my PrC. It has good flavor, and the evocation damage bonuses and boost against spell resistance on evil creatures are very nice features.
Swiftbrook 06-05-07, 05:19 PM	Regarding Greyhawk Method. OK, how much does it cost to scribe a spell in your spellbook? The PHB states 100 gp per page (p 179) but the DMG state under Boccob's Blessed Book that "a wizard can fill the 1,000 pages ... without paying the 25 gp per page material cost." Cost per page for a BBBook is 12.5 gp. I didn't see errata for either. So using the PHB 100 gp per page 2 free 1st level spells ... 200 gp 2 free 2nd level spells ... 400 gp 2 free 3rd level spells ... 600 gp (1,200 total) 2 free 4th level spells ... 800 gp (2,000 total) What am I missing here? OK, searched the DMG & PHB errata .. nothing. Found the answer to the cost for a spell per page compared to BBBook in the FAQ. Whow, got to get a BBBook ASAP! So by 5th level need to save 6,250 gp for a BBBook. So all that said, what is a good first level feat even if I train out of it later? Empower look useless until you reach 5th level. -Swiftbrook
UMiskatonic 06-06-07, 12:07 AM	Spell Focus (anything) would do for first level. Imp. Initiative is also really solid.
_metz_ 06-06-07, 01:54 AM	Regarding Greyhawk Method. OK, searched the DMG & PHB errata .. nothing. Found the answer to the cost for a spell per page compared to BBBook in the FAQ. Whow, got to get a BBBook ASAP! So by 5th level need to save 6,250 gp for a BBBook. So all that said, what is a good first level feat even if I train out of it later? Empower look useless until you reach 5th level. -Swiftbrook I would go Improved Initiative then retrain it to Skillfocus at 5 or 6 for Divine Oracle or other Prestige class prereq. (level before you take the class, either 5 or 6)
Rerednaw 06-08-07, 02:09 PM	OK, No I'm not a newbe but with wizards I am. The last time I remember playing a wizard was like 1977. I've read several threads, but most talk about a specialist wizard, or a wizard/_____ concept. They don't fit me well. What I do know (very little) This is going to be for the Greyhawk Ruins arc. I'm looking at a Grey Elf (for the +2 Int) or a Human (for the feat and skill points). I like the idea of a mage not a specialist since I'm not very familiar with all the spells and I don't think I'd do well specializing, but I'm not ruling it out. I'd like to live a long time, not a quick shot/one shot character. I'd like to max out the spellcraft knowledge type skills. I want to do more than combat/buff for the game. I'd like to know a bunch of languages (but which ones?) or is Comprehend Language better for this. ... Now in my opinionated view: Good call on the specialization. If you haven't played a wizard in a long time, don't start with one that limits you off the bat. Several prestige class recommendations have been based upon what is the most powerful. You do not have to necessarily have to go that route. A straight wizard is moderately weaker, true. That doesn't make him useless. If you like funneling down the foe, take a look at battlefield control via conjuration, enchantment, or to a lesser extent, evocation. Do you like pets? A summoning specialist is a ton of bookkeeping (have your pets stats ready in advance otherwise your table will get annoyed at you) but they can be a great deal of fun...plus more meat shields between the baddies and your paper-thin arcane squishy. Feats: Metamagic School Focus (along with Spell Focus and a Metamagic feat) is a nice way to get more umph or versatility out of a chosen school. If you like pets, then Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning are solid. Rapid Summoing also is nice, get your pets as a standard action (like in a surprise round) instead of a full round. I'm not a big fan of blaster wizards. But if you are: Split Ray, Empower and Maximize. Sculpt Spell also works. Spell lists? Well depends on your focus. My personal favorites (battlefield control, utility) in a partial list up to 4th level spells: 1 - Comp. Languages, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, Sleep. 2 - Glitterdust, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Web 3 - Fly, Stinking Cloud 4 - Dimension Door (aka, get me out of this grapple!), Evard's, Solid Fog, any Wall Spell. All levels: Summoning. Good luck whatever you decide.
control freak 06-14-07, 09:43 PM	heres a good and cool human build and a decent dwarf build 10 10 15 16 12 8 spell focus conj aug summoning(though the feats are up to you i believe that the over comming caster checks for penitration is important at later levels if your not summoning) for human so that u get durablity CON score helps a ton heres my dwarf build 8 12 18 16 10 6 either toughness or any feat you want you get durablity (at higher levels you get improved toughness and gain CRAZY hit points for wizards because they get like as much as som fighters (if u buy a amulet of health and take improved toughness you get 9 hp per level which rivles fighters and you dont lose that much other then a point or 2 of spell save DCs unless you are going 20 int)
_metz_ 06-15-07, 07:48 AM	heres a good and cool human build and a decent dwarf build 10 10 15 16 12 8 spell focus conj aug summoning(though the feats are up to you i believe that the over coming caster checks for penetration is important at later levels if your not summoning) for human so that u get durability CON score helps a ton heres my dwarf build 8 12 18 16 10 6 either toughness or any feat you want you get durability (at higher levels you get improved toughness and gain CRAZY hit points for wizards because they get like as much as some fighters (if u buy a amulet of health and take improved toughness you get 9 hp per level which rivals fighters and you don't lose that much other then a point or 2 of spell save DCs unless you are going 20 int) 1. toughness is a stupid feat. NEVER EVER EVER VOLUNTARILY TAKE IT. <exclusion being a prereq> Improved toughness works if you are taking a fighter level for spell sword or something, and want to take something useful with your feat. Its still not that great, but handy. 2. Feats aren't as important to a wizard as their Stat buy. Gnomes, Dwarves, and Grey Elves really make the best wizards. Halflings make decent warmages. 3. PLEASE put your signature in spoiler boxes. It's annoying having to scroll through a post that is three times too long cos you have lots of signatures.
Swiftbrook 08-05-07, 02:54 PM	GenCon is a week away and I'm going to use this build for my GreyHawk Ruins character. Last chance to give input if I should change anything. Grey Elf Str 6 Dex 16 Int 20 Con 12 Wis 8 Cha 8 Skills: Concentration 4 Decipher Scripe 1 Know: Arcana 4 Know: Religion 4 Know: Dungeoneering 4 Know: Planes 4 Know: History 1 Know: Local (City of Greyhawk) 1 Know: Nobility 1 Spellcraft 4 Wizard1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Inititive Wizard2: Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Items Wizard4: Wizard5: 1st Level Spells: Color Spray Comprehend Language (write a scroll) Enlarge Person Hail of Stones Identify (write a scroll) Mage Armor Orb of Acid, Lesser Ray of Enfeeblement Any last minute thoughts? -Swiftbrook
Lupo 08-05-07, 03:45 PM	GenCon is a week away and I'm going to use this build for my GreyHawk Ruins character. Last chance to give input if I should change anything. Grey Elf Str 6 Dex 16 Int 20 Con 12 Wis 8 Cha 8 Skills: Concentration 4 Decipher Scripe 1 Know: Arcana 4 Know: Religion 4 Know: Dungeoneering 4 Know: Planes 4 Know: History 1 Know: Local (City of Greyhawk) 1 Know: Nobility 1 Spellcraft 4 Wizard1: Scribe Scroll, Improved Inititive Wizard2: Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Items Wizard4: Wizard5: 1st Level Spells: Color Spray Comprehend Language (write a scroll) Enlarge Person Hail of Stones Identify (write a scroll) Mage Armor Orb of Acid, Lesser Ray of Enfeeblement Any last minute thoughts? -Swiftbrook stats: you know what you are doing, so buy yourself a label "shadow bait" :) (i wouldn't buy the 20 intelligence but a lot of elven wizards do it) skills: wizards are KNOWLEDGE MONKEYS so buy points in every single knowledge, it is unlikely that "knowledge planes" will be crucial during your "baby levels" and "knowledge religion" should be covered by your party's cleric. but "knowledge architecture", "knowledge nature" and "knowledge nobility" might be needed. i would reduce the points in everything apart from "knowledge arcane" to one or two points. spells: "identify" is just to expensive even as a self scribed scroll it is 112,5 gp. "hail of stone" is VERY situational, this is a spell for a scroll. and you can't scribe scrolls BEFORE your first AR, as you don't have any XP to spend. if you have some cash left, buy one or two scrolls with magic missile. use one in a dire situation use the other to copy it in your spellbook ;) ciao martin m.
JamesMaissen 08-06-07, 02:53 AM	GenCon is a week away and I'm going to use this build for my GreyHawk Ruins character. Last chance to give input if I should change anything. 1st Level Spells: Color Spray Comprehend Language (write a scroll) Enlarge Person Hail of Stones Identify (write a scroll) Mage Armor Orb of Acid, Lesser Ray of Enfeeblement Any last minute thoughts? -Swiftbrook Due to the silly nature of only being able to buy scrolls from the DMG tables you might wish to skew your 'free' spells towards the 'mostly' open spells that you can't buy as scrolls. The exception being for those that you feel that you must have before you can afford the 125gp to buy a scroll and scribe it into your spellbook. Also I'd plan the character out further than you have. Consider which PrCs that you wish to take. I strongly advise against any that cost you a caster level. Otherwise decide what you are paying for in each of your choices and be sure to include in those costs the lack of taking a different PrC for those levels. Lastly I'd echo another poster's thoughts that you first want to get 1 rank in every knowledge. This will give you a reasonable roll (+6) to achieve it. But plan out your skills as one of the thing a wizard brings to the table is information. As general advice I would choose the knowledge skills to help you glean information about what you are facing. -James
RBNMare 08-06-07, 03:38 PM	And start with a 14 CON. You won't be sorry. Agree, I would even look at a Gnome wizard and start with a 14 con + racial adjustment 16 con. Can never have enough Hit Points. My Halfling Lvl 10 has 60 HP 16 con thanks to amulet of health that I crafted. Another guy in our group has the gnome wizard, not sure what his con is but that wizard has 80 plus HP, before false life. What im trying to say is dont skimp on Con, it will come in handy one day. it helps with Fort save, concentration checks, its just important lets leave it at that. Best of luck to you
Timlagor 08-08-07, 10:26 AM	Get Sleep. Ray of Enfeeblement can wait and you could just buy scrolls of Comp Languages since you're not likely ever to actually prepare it. Get Scholar's Touch Distract Assailant Any other non-PHB Open spell you like the look of (can't remember what's good of the top of my head but check Ken Jenks's list) Buy/Scribe a scroll or two of Enlarge Person
Zanzibax 08-09-07, 08:51 AM	So based on recomondations ... Skills: Spellcraft (maxed) Concentration (maxed) Know: Arcana (maxed) Know: Religion (high) Know: Dungeoneering (high) Know: Planes (high) Know: all others (1 rank each) Decipher Scripe (at least 1) Add Know: Local (Core) and Know: Local (Region) Must have at least Core.