Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cynric 06-11-07, 06:16 AM	Hi everyone. Just would like an opinion on whether the following concept is vaible. I may use it in ruins of Grehawk if I can make it work. Human wizard with starting feats as Arcane Disciple healing and Spontaneous Healer. Wisdom would be about 14 then up it with items. Does anyone think this would work well enough to be sole healer, or maybe with a bard as backup, or would we need two of them?
Puggle Halfwine 06-11-07, 08:07 AM	As someone in Cynric's party-to-be I feel qualified to comment. ;) The bottom line you have to look at is: How often do the healers of most parties cast healing spells IN COMBAT? I'd wager no more than one or two "big" spells, with maybe a few little ones thrown in there. That means that you will be covering the bases in terms of healing. Bear in mind that with Craft Wonderous and Pearls of Power, you will have out of combat healing completely covered. Just craft ten pearls (2,500gp) or even twenty pearls (5,000) and you've got it more than covered. One thing to consider- the Mystic Theurge problem. Sure, you can heal AND boom, but you can't heal and boom at the same time. ... that's what Rellen Morganstaler's there for. ;) FIRE DEATH BOOM!
_metz_ 06-11-07, 08:33 AM	As someone in Cynric's party-to-be I feel qualified to comment. ;) The bottom line you have to look at is: How often do the healers of most parties cast healing spells IN COMBAT? I'd wager no more than one or two "big" spells, with maybe a few little ones thrown in there. That means that you will be covering the bases in terms of healing. Bear in mind that with Craft Wonderous and Pearls of Power, you will have out of combat healing completely covered. Just craft ten pearls (2,500gp) or even twenty pearls (5,000) and you've got it more than covered. One thing to consider- the Mystic Theurge problem. Sure, you can heal AND boom, but you can't heal and boom at the same time. ... that's what Rellen Morganstaler's there for. ;) FIRE DEATH BOOM! Having a wizard as the primary healer will get people killed. They don't get to do the really useful stuff (lesser vigor and healthful rest anyone?) And in combat can't afford missing an action casting fireball or haste to cast cure serious. they really can't. Not to mention they aren't as tough as a cleric and will get walloped if they get close enough to heal people. It is good to be able to heal, but a wizard isn't that good as a primary. And you have your pearls costs wrong by half. (should be twice as much) I would suggest a cleric, a mystic theurge, or a straight wizard. If you are able to get a group of players together for an arc - all i can say is: GET A CLERIC!
Puggle Halfwine 06-11-07, 08:37 AM	Double.
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 09:04 AM	Bear in mind that with Craft Wonderous and Pearls of Power, you will have out of combat healing completely covered. Just craft ten pearls (2,500gp) or even twenty pearls (5,000) and you've got it more than covered. There should be table variation on that - Arcane Disciple is quite specific that you may cast a maximum of one spell per day. I know the Pearl says it is as if the spell wasn't cast, but this is your deity we're talking about here... What I find more useful is that it adds them to your class list - you can use a Wand of CLW.
Southernskies 06-11-07, 09:22 AM	... Or scribe arcane scrolls of various spells. I'm looking forward to when I can scribe arcane scrolls of holy weapon, since the DMG table only has divine versions available for purchase.
Timlagor 06-11-07, 11:15 AM	MwaO: with Arcane Disciple you are casting Arcane Spells so it's not at all clear that any deity is involved. I would certainly allow PoPs to be used myself. My biggest concern with this is that you'd be giving up the Amulet of Health (unless/until the MIC rules hit LG). I wouldn't bother with Spontaneous Healer either -you just don't have enough Feats to take both imo.
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 12:26 PM	MwaO: with Arcane Disciple you are casting Arcane Spells so it's not at all clear that any deity is involved. I'm just noting from an intent point of view. I think the RAW is clearly against casting more than one spell per day. And I'm saying this as someone has Arcane Disciple(Healing) for a character. Admittedly, I'm a spontaneous caster, but Memento Magic has the same language and I think it likely I'll get access to it at some point. And that's a lot more dangerous in the hands of a spontaneous caster - who can have a friendly cast Owl's Wisdom on him at high level, rather than have to use a Wisdom Amulet.
Sieylianna 06-11-07, 12:43 PM	If you are able to get a group of players together for an arc - all i can say is: GET A CLERIC! I have to agree. I wouldn't think of starting RHoD without a cleric and I don't think I'd want to do it for any extended series of modules. Healing hit points is one thing, but the attribute and level drains are quite another. Ed
TWG_Prometheus 06-11-07, 12:49 PM	I wouldn't bother with Spontaneous Healer either -you just don't have enough Feats to take both imo. I'll echo this sentiment. You have to look at how much of your character you're investing into any particular facet. For a Wizard, Arcane Disciple is a moderate to small distraction, requiring a moderate Wisdom score they normally wouldn't get otherwise and a single feat. Given the restrictions on Arcane Disciple pertaining to the number of 'domain' spells you can cast per day (whether or not pearls work) it should be clear that divine-list spells aren't going to be a major focus for your character. Certainly if Arcane Disciple(Healing) is the feat under discussion, we have to consider the capability a distraction from the primary Wizard class, however useful the healing capability may be. If you conclude that healing is not a major facet of the character, then you have to watch the amount of the character you're investing toward healing. I personally think that one feat and an off-stat is about the maximum you can really afford to go. Spontaneous Healer is, at best, going to make your character look like a weak Healer class character, and those aren't terribly strong to begin with. I'm considering doing Arcane Disciple(Healing) with a Wizard as well. Taking just the one feat as well as a 14 base Wisdom is the most I can convince myself is effective, however. Don't invest any of your top-rank spells into healing. Cure Serious Wounds is a mistake for a level 5 Wizard, and even Heal is a mistake for a level 11 Wizard. Hope for a +2 Wisdom Ioun Stone to get your Wisdom up high enough for 5th and 6th level healing spells. By the time you can really afford to put a 6th level slot toward Heal (probably 13th-14th level) there's a reasonable chance you'll be able to craft or buy that Wisdom Ioun Stone to allow you to do so. At worst, you can have a Wisdom amulet for doing Heals the day after you need them. Make all other decisions about your character (including the number of pearls of power you create) as though you didn't have Arcane Disciple at all. Always keep in mind...you're the plan C healer unless there's only one other healer around, and avoid situations where you're the plan A healer like the plague. Unless I'm missing something in the rules though, an Arcane Disciple healing Wizard could use their familiar to deliver healing spells, and that's pretty awesome in my book.
solbergb 06-11-07, 04:27 PM	There should be table variation on that - Arcane Disciple is quite specific that you may cast a maximum of one spell per day. I know the Pearl says it is as if the spell wasn't cast, but this is your deity we're talking about here... Hm. You can pearl domain slots. I think the pearl wording overrules the one/day wording, just as it does for domain slots. It's the same basic idea. As a practical matter, for most of your career, it'll only matter for the 1st and 2nd level slots anyway. Even with crafting and access, L3+ pearls are quite expensive, all the way to level 15.
solbergb 06-11-07, 04:29 PM	I'll echo this sentiment. You have to look at how much of your character you're investing into any particular facet. For a Wizard, Arcane Disciple is a moderate to small distraction, requiring a moderate Wisdom score they normally wouldn't get otherwise and a single feat. There is also the matter of locking down your "levelup" spells known to domain spells, as you're unlikely to get scroll access to anything from the divine list. That said, I'm considering something like this for my snow elf. I want a weather/cold themed wizard and to make it really unique want some stuff from the divine lists to make it work. It would also be kind of nice to play an arcanist again with a positive wisdom modifier and a bit more religious flavor. I haven't done that since my 3.0 homegame.
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 05:38 PM	Hm. You can pearl domain slots. I think the pearl wording overrules the one/day wording, just as it does for domain slots. It's the same basic idea. Clerics are limited in how many they can cast because they're only allowed to cast them in a domain slot. They're not actually given a maximum number of times they may cast the spell in any given day(as Arcane Disciple does specifically state - an Arcane Disciple can't prepare Extended Recitation and Recitation) While 3rd+ level Pearls/Memento Magic are expensive, there are certain spells in some domains that are top tier and given a discount. Recitation is a 3rd level spell in the Purification domain as an example.
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 05:47 PM	That said, I'm considering something like this for my snow elf. I want a weather/cold themed wizard and to make it really unique want some stuff from the divine lists to make it work. It would also be kind of nice to play an arcanist again with a positive wisdom modifier and a bit more religious flavor. I haven't done that since my 3.0 homegame. Right now my Beguiler's a blast because of this - he truly believes himself a Favored Soul of Pelor. Why wouldn't Pelor grant a blinding light spell as a spell known? Or for that matter, when granting the spell 'Find Traps', why wouldn't Pelor also grant the ability to remove said trap? Examples: Sleep - "Feel the heat of the noonday sun!" Haste - "Move at the speed of the morning sun rise" Invisibility - "Let Pelor hide me behind the Eclipse." Daze/Color Spray/any spell that overcomes things - "By the blinding light of Pelor" Etc...Yes, he doesn't have a high Charisma like every other Favored Soul, but who said Gods were all bound by some silly rule like that?
Timlagor 06-12-07, 10:03 AM	You can learn the Arcane Disciple Spells from a Divine Scroll if they aren't on an Arcane Spell list -so you are find for the Cures up to 4th from LGCS-Open access.
solbergb 06-12-07, 12:39 PM	Really? Does the feat say that and provide an exception? You could get the cure spells and some other things (free movement, remove paralysis, silence) from the bard arcane scrolls normally, but as a rule, you can't mix and match divine/arcane scrolls for spell scribing. actually it occurs to me that wizard crafting feats are the way to get around the 1/day limit. Scribe some scrolls, or make a wand or even staff of the spell you really want to re-use. No table variation, you can craft it at whatever level suits you and the staff approach can cover anything in your domain list that is level dependent.
mowaca 06-12-07, 08:02 PM	There should be table variation on that - Arcane Disciple is quite specific that you may cast a maximum of one spell per day. I know the Pearl says it is as if the spell wasn't cast, but this is your deity we're talking about here... What I find more useful is that it adds them to your class list - you can use a Wand of CLW. Well, one per day per level. To clarify, The feat says "Each day you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level" (emphasis added). Clerics have a domain 'slot' they use each level, this is just a way to enforce the same limitation without giving you an extra spell slot. I agree with MwaO that its a very useful way to be able to use certain wands or scrolls. I've found Strength domain very useful for my Beguiler cohort. Finally, to answer the original question, I don't think this would work well enough to be the primary healer. You have to spend cash to write it in your book and memorize it every day. At 1st level it seems attractive, but I think a second fireball would be way more useful than cure serious wounds. Now, if you were a Warmage or Beguiler it would be a no cost addition to your spell list and make you a little more flexible, but still not a primary healer.
UMiskatonic 06-12-07, 08:13 PM	Honestly, I think the between fight healing is WAY better. As for the remove condition problem, well, there's a reason that wizards get scribe scroll for free. I agree with the above posters, during the fight, you're a wizard. It's after the fight, when you can break out a wand of CLW, that you'll really shine. And remember, this will change with the table. If you sit down with three other wizards, then stock up on healing spells and have that cure wand in hand.
copper_wyrmling 06-12-07, 08:16 PM	Incidentally, if I was doing an arcane disciple (healing) build I'd strongly consider taking metamagic school focus (conjuration) and empower - they're pretty good feats for any arcane caster (there are so many nice conjuration spells), but they also allow you to cast empowered cures for a +1 level adjustment if your party is badly lacking in healing. Being able to use a wand of CLW is nice, but there are lots of ways for PCs to get it and most of them don't cost a feat - you certainly shouldn't take the feat just for that, as almost always, it doesn't add very much to the party. (I'm speaking here as someone who plays a sorc/wildmage with +23 UMD - I think I've been on only one table where being able to reliably use wands of CLW really mattered, and she's L12, almost L13.)
solbergb 06-12-07, 10:18 PM	Yeah...my warmage has one rank in UMD, and that's enough to get wands of CLW to work, as long as the party has enough for the occasional "jammed" wand. It isn't worth spending a whole feat on. To me, arcane disciple is far more useful to get unique divine spells on your list. One of the more obvious choices is "War", to get divine power and righeous might for a "gish" type character, but the "Pact" spells could be another pretty cool option, protection domain for an abjurer, plant domain for the AC and the weird druid plant spells, magic domain for imbue with spell ability, luck domain for freedom of movement and aid, the aligned domains for the level 7 zaps, death domain for death ward, death knell and cheap animate dead, animal domain for summon nature ally spells, air domain for control winds and air walk.. I'm sure the noncore lists have stuff that might be attractive to a wizard who just wants one or two key spells and has no other way of getting them or duplicating them from the wiz/sor list.
Southernskies 06-13-07, 06:15 AM	Really? Does the feat say that and provide an exception? You could get the cure spells and some other things (free movement, remove paralysis, silence) from the bard arcane scrolls normally, but as a rule, you can't mix and match divine/arcane scrolls for spell scribing. Its explained in the "Extra Domains" section of CD pg20. Wizards with a domain may specifically scribe divine scrolls into their spellbook if that is the only source for the spell.
solbergb 06-13-07, 04:28 PM	But Arcane Disciple doesn't give you a domain, so I don't see how that applies. Getting a domain is like becoming a divine oracle or something - one fo the PRC's that gives the whole domain, including domain powers, not just the spells. Arcane disciple only gives the spells and is silent on scrolls, so I would think the usual rules apply.
boolean 06-14-07, 12:07 AM	There is also the matter of locking down your "levelup" spells known to domain spells, as you're unlikely to get scroll access to anything from the divine list. Arcane scrolls of Cure Light, Moderate, and Serious are open access (due to also being Bard spells, and costing less than 750 gp on a scroll). So that's one case where some of your domain spells can be taken easily.
solbergb 06-14-07, 12:15 AM	assuming healing domain is the only thing that interests you yes. Granted the OP was talking about healing domain, so that's fair. They're more expensive though.
Southernskies 06-14-07, 04:47 AM	But Arcane Disciple doesn't give you a domain, so I don't see how that applies. The feat itself has "domain" in nearly every paragraph of it. Arcane Discipline: Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of the deity... ...Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells... ...For example, a character who chose Heironeous and the Good domain with his first selection could choose Law or War with successive selections of the same feat... Looks like a domain to me (except you don't get the domain power that using a P-class would).
_metz_ 06-14-07, 08:43 AM	The feat itself has "domain" in nearly every paragraph of it. Looks like a domain to me (except you don't get the domain power that using a P-class would). Yes but you add the chosen domain's spells to YOUR CLASS LIST. At NO point does it say you have a domain slot. Or have a Domain. So a feat dependent on a domain slot (e.g: Domain Spontaneity) would not be able to be used from my reading.
Timlagor 06-15-07, 07:34 AM	Have you checked teh actual wording of the CD text? I was confident that it did cover the AD feat.