Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codyknotts 05-22-07, 01:22 AM	I was wondering what the worst both build and later during play character was.. We have a 6th Level Monk that is a: Blind in one eye Has one hand Cursed (high level) can only act 50% of the time Has lycanthrophy (has not become aware of it as a character) with Werecroc Cursed with possible 17 round daze Has died three times 2nd place is 5th Level Barbarian 4 Int, 6 Wis, 2 Cha (after curse from stealing jewels) Died four times 22 adventures to achieve level 5 (with two core specials and four double adventures)
magebeast 05-22-07, 03:29 AM	I was wondering what the worst both build and later during play character was.. We have a 6th Level Monk that is a: Blind in one eye Has one hand Cursed (high level) can only act 50% of the time Has lycanthrophy (has not become aware of it as a character) with Werecroc Cursed with possible 17 round daze How was he allowed to continue playing? I thought uncured lycanthropy got your character pulled.
bitznarf 05-22-07, 03:32 AM	If the PC knows they are infected and doesn't try to get rid of it then they get pulled, if the PC doesn't know, the PC doesn't get pulled.
Harpua 05-22-07, 09:55 AM	you should of shown there stats and feats to get the true flavor of these charcters. i play at the same table as these two so i can respect the true "Special" that is adariana, the monk. she is the product of just a poor build, foolish play moves, and a player who is more than lacking in a couple stats, but i'll just let you guess at which ones. but Mercury, the barbarian is just... well you have to just feel bad for him, you have to understand that there is two years in that charcter and my buddy loves him. A couple hard deaths, and a foolish choice that sent him to prison and made the stupid, half-orc max damage guy even dumber, so we do have a collar and a chain that he wears around the neck to be guided around with.
trollbill 05-22-07, 11:26 AM	I was wondering what the worst both build and later during play character was.. We have a 6th Level Monk that is a: Blind in one eye Has one hand Cursed (high level) can only act 50% of the time Has lycanthrophy (has not become aware of it as a character) with Werecroc Cursed with possible 17 round daze Has died three times 2nd place is 5th Level Barbarian 4 Int, 6 Wis, 2 Cha (after curse from stealing jewels) Died four times 22 adventures to achieve level 5 (with two core specials and four double adventures) Looks like someone has been playing Sheldomar Valley mods. You should name him, "Lucky."
Eric Anondson 05-22-07, 12:47 PM	I know of a rogue in the Shield Lands that has been around since year 2. He has died a few times, not sure how many precisely. I played at the table where the character acquired a Brand of Heironeous for stealing from a ruined temple to Heironeous. Basically, every cleric or paladin of Heironeous (The Shield Lands! Where Heironeous is the state religion) who saw him saw the Brand of their god labeling him a thief. I wrote an adventure where this fellow played and had both of his eyes plucked out. Needed a regeneration. Mmm, ocularons. Not long ago, he was 14th level and fought a beast that gave him 10 negative levels . . . then he failed the Fort save. So now he is 4th level. Sort of an advantage if you think about it, being 4th level with a 14th level character's equipment. He justmay need it!
delewobmesid 05-22-07, 12:59 PM	the most ineffective/whinest I've seen was a Mage 2, Cleric 1, druid 2-3 with a mule and was always casting produce fire...my warmage had pity on him and healed him back from negatives in an interactive...should have just left him...
zoinks69 05-22-07, 01:03 PM	I was wondering what the worst both build and later during play character was.. We have a 6th Level Monk that is a: Blind in one eye Has one hand Cursed (high level) can only act 50% of the time Has lycanthrophy (has not become aware of it as a character) with Werecroc Cursed with possible 17 round daze Has died three times Setting the other stuff aside, Monk is one of the few classes that can get by with one hand (and one eye isn't really a setback either). Sounds like a pretty unfortunate PC in any case :D
thorinXXX 05-22-07, 04:22 PM	Anything played by **** ******. I think most Keolanders can fill in the blank.
Timlagor 05-22-07, 06:28 PM	Not long ago, he was 14th level and fought a beast that gave him 10 negative levels . . . then he failed the Fort save. So now he is 4th level. Sort of an advantage if you think about it, being 4th level with a 14th level character's equipment. He justmay need it! Shouldn't that have been 10 different Fort Saves?
Eric Anondson 05-22-07, 06:41 PM	Shouldn't that have been 10 different Fort Saves?I wasn't there for the failed saves so I couldn't tell you how they were adjudicated. I do know he's back to 4th level though. :eek:
Mattastrophic 05-22-07, 06:51 PM	I wasn't there for the failed saves so I couldn't tell you how they were adjudicated. I do know he's back to 4th level though. :eek: Those are still all pretty tough to make, considering that you're at -10 on the first, then -9 from your new, deleveled save modifier on the 2nd, etc. -Matt
jstorrie 05-22-07, 06:59 PM	10 permanent negative levels is a bonus, not a penalty!
pedr 05-22-07, 07:32 PM	Though what 14th level character can't get access to Restoration within 24 hours?
bitznarf 05-22-07, 07:39 PM	I can think of a couple of ways, being captured for example could do that. Those 'escape after X TU' on the AR types.
dkay807 05-22-07, 08:16 PM	Anything played by **** ******. I think most Keolanders can fill in the blank. I HAD NEVER LAUGHED SO HARD READING THESE FORUMS UNTIL I READ THIS. OH, HOW I AGREE. DAVE
magebeast 05-23-07, 02:16 AM	Though what 14th level character can't get access to Restoration within 24 hours? Why would you want to? Somebody who plays nearby me recently said, "If they want to put level draining monsters in mods, then I'm just going to be level drained." He doesn't willfully fail the save, but he's not interested in paying for the restoration.
zoinks69 05-23-07, 02:53 AM	Anything played by **** ******. I think most Keolanders can fill in the blank. Yikes. As a Keolander, I'm vaguely curious. On the upside, my name doesn't fit, but I can probably name off a few that do. Gimme a hint (feel free to message me directly)?
just_be_glad_now 05-23-07, 04:36 AM	You would want to because it might be difficult to convince a triad that a high level PC who habitually willfully spurns restorations in order to lose levels is not doing so in order to prevent retirement. I would expect it would be very difficult in the above case with ten negative levels. If someone willfully loses levels in any manner at my table, expecially a PC near the retirement point, there would need to be some pretty convincing justification to keep me from going through the hassle of describing the incident to the PC's triad. It's hard enough on the writers without PCs with absurd amounts of equipment for their level. jbgn Magebeast said: Why would you want to? Somebody who plays nearby me recently said, "If they want to put level draining monsters in mods, then I'm just going to be level drained." He doesn't willfully fail the save, but he's not interested in paying for the restoration.
Mattastrophic 05-23-07, 09:26 AM	It's hard enough on the writers without PCs with absurd amounts of equipment for their level. Waitasecond... since when was it a writer's job to scale their modules based on outliers like PCs with large amounts of equipment? Isn't the writer supposed to be writing for the average, not the top 1% of characters? Those questions are rhetorical; no response necessary. -Matt
Dominick 05-23-07, 09:42 AM	It's hard enough on the writers without PCs with absurd amounts of equipment for their level. Its not hard at all. If they walk through the module, nobody is going to slap the writer. LG is not a Players VS DM or players VS Writer game. Nobody wins by killing players just so we can say the module is tough. OTOH, nobody wins by sending basic Kobolds against an APL 10 table either. Its a People VS "nothing to do" game. We win when we are entertained.
Donald_Cannith 05-23-07, 01:54 PM	I play at the table with the monk and this barbarian. Mercury still is ntothat bad of a character and is quite fun to be around....especially when you get into the irony of my miniature being a duergar slaver leading him around..... I have to say though the monk has never ever been useful except maybe in one or two instances when she took one for the team. We were playing an APL6 with the character being the highest level character at the table and you would have never known. And of course the character died so many tiems throughout red hand of doom that despite playing every part of it and starting off at the correct level for it, the character is only 6th level. Quite the accomplishment actually.
magebeast 05-23-07, 04:25 PM	As I said, I wouldn't willfully fail the save, I just wouldn't buy a restoration. At that point, were I in that position, I'd probably play the character without all his toys most of the time and then pull out my good stuff when it looked like the party really needed it. In any case, if the Triad in my area decided to pull my character at that point, I'd let them do it without argument probably. You would want to because it might be difficult to convince a triad that a high level PC who habitually willfully spurns restorations in order to lose levels is not doing so in order to prevent retirement. I would expect it would be very difficult in the above case with ten negative levels. If someone willfully loses levels in any manner at my table, expecially a PC near the retirement point, there would need to be some pretty convincing justification to keep me from going through the hassle of describing the incident to the PC's triad. It's hard enough on the writers without PCs with absurd amounts of equipment for their level. jbgn Magebeast said:
GreatSiron 05-23-07, 04:43 PM	In the rogue's case, I can see a way it could have been out of his power. Far away from town + no cleric= no restoration, goodbye 10 levels.
ragecage79 05-23-07, 05:26 PM	In the rogue's case, I can see a way it could have been out of his power. Far away from town + no cleric= no restoration, goodbye 10 levels. I wasn't at the table either, but from what I understand they were on another plane (or a similar situation) at the time. Having played with the PC many times, he really doesn't have any crazy broken items or anything (outside of maybe some stat/skill bumpers) so I personally haven't seen a balance problem with allowing him to continue, so far (not triad anyway, so it wouldn't mean anything if I did). The player isn't an uber-optimizer power gamer anyway, and the PC in question is incredibly brave (read: insane), as the player plays him, so all the doodads in the world couldn't keep him from danger anyway. The luck of Olidammara will only carry one so far, but everyone's number comes up eventually. :D
just_be_glad_now 05-23-07, 08:33 PM	If the char was 14th level at the time, if I'm reading things right there should be no reason why he couldn't just put the char aside until another APL 14 table made, this one with a L13 PC cleric willing to cast greater restoration. You have like 3 months to get that bad boy cast. The same situation arising for a 10th level or so PC would be more painful. jbgn Originally Posted by GreatSiron In the rogue's case, I can see a way it could have been out of his power. Far away from town + no cleric= no restoration, goodbye 10 levels.
haferka 05-24-07, 08:15 AM	I played a mod not long ago.. that put the party weeks away from any town or NPC spellcaster.. where they fought a level draining creature... After getting beat to @#$$ we ran away from the mod.. and realized that the level drain would be permanant by the time that we all got back... Everyone made the secondary saves.. so it didnt matter.. but for some of us.. it was close. I was 6th level with 4 negative levels.. I called dibs on the only item we found that provided a +1 to saves.. and it payed off... Barely :)
Potato Weasel 05-25-07, 09:40 AM	Worst character ever can mean so many things.. A fighter with sundering cleave, a bad attack bonus and no adamantine weapon that refuses to just attack directly and not killing the baddies primary weapon till the fourth turn when the rest of the party have already taken him down to ten hp or so. Or the random people at cons that insist that roleplaying their character means actively assisting the bad guys whenever possible.
codyknotts 05-25-07, 10:35 AM	Worst character ever can mean so many things.. A fighter with sundering cleave, a bad attack bonus and no adamantine weapon that refuses to just attack directly and not killing the baddies primary weapon till the fourth turn when the rest of the party have already taken him down to ten hp or so. Or the random people at cons that insist that roleplaying their character means actively assisting the bad guys whenever possible. Boy I couldn't agree more. That is why we go with our gaming group as a whole to cons. We still end up with one guy we don't know or maybe two,but it lessens this problem. Though if we ever take the above monk, well it would be better to have no character, because we have to spend time arguing about what he could do that would not screw up the situation.
Prof. Pacali 05-25-07, 03:59 PM	I think there are really three criteria for "Worst Character". 1) Someone who didn't optimize his character to your taste. This is subjective, and if the player contributes to the fun of the game, does it matter if his PC isn't built the way you would have? 2) The PC has had a run of bad luck, incurring curses, lycanthropy, or just visited Bissel more than once. You feel sorry for the player, unless he either whines about his luck, in which case you get annoyed with him, or he turns lemons into lemonade, which will impress you. For example my elf rogue got reincarnated as a gnome. I was really annoyed, until I saw a PrC from Races of Stone that fit the character to a tee. So I'm now she's becoming a Blade Bravo, and I stopped griping. 3) The third category is when the Player either is new to the game, doesn't understand the rules, or makes poor tactical choices. Some players catch on quick how to contribute to the victory of the party, others are really clueless. I have played with the Keoland player mentioned earlier, and I feel bad because he is one of the most enthusiastic LG players I have ever met, always willing to DM at a moment's notice, despite his poor grasp of how to play. He understands the basics, but the subtler ways to play a character elude him. That said, I have yet to see him actually cause a TPK (came close a few months ago though), and like I said he is very enthusiastic about the game, so only a heartless monster would turn him away from a table.
bitznarf 05-25-07, 04:03 PM	How about a fourth category: characters and/or players that actually hinder the party as a whole, rather than helping in any fashion, optimized or not.
Prof. Pacali 05-25-07, 04:16 PM	How about a fourth category: characters and/or players that actually hinder the party as a whole, rather than helping in any fashion, optimized or not. I've found that characters do so for one of the three reasons I've mentioned, usually the third one. A poor build or a run of bad luck can usually be compensated for by a clever player, but the players in category three don't realize they aren't contributing. For example the Keoland player mentioned before has a low level paladin character, which he did not design to be a power attacking melee machine. That's fine, but even without PA a character should draw a weapon and close with the enemy. Instead he insists on using a crossbow, despite not having PBS or Precise Shot. When he finally closed with the enemy, he took 3 hps damage, then decided to withdraw so he could drink a potion, despite the fact that my druid was there holding a wand of CLW for the purpose of keeping him on his feet so he could hurt the enemy. That mod almost turned into a TPK because he was one of the only PCs at the table with a weapon that could overcome the enemy's DR. Most of the melee characters were sent to negative hps, but there were no fatalities, because one of the other characters had the right weapon, and my druid supported him. But the paladin continued to withdraw from melee after taking a scratch, and kept using a crossbow that couldn't overcome the monster's DR.
Sieylianna 05-25-07, 05:06 PM	I've found that characters do so for one of the three reasons I've mentioned, usually the third one. I disagree. There are plenty of BDF's who actively work against the party during role-playing (diplomatic encounters). Ed
Mattastrophic 05-25-07, 05:12 PM	I disagree. There are plenty of BDF's who actively work against the party during role-playing (diplomatic encounters). Preachin' to the choir here. -Matt, aka Sol the Virtuoso "You just turned 'Fascinate for the win' into 'Horrid Wilting in the surprise round.' Jerk."
Mommy was an Orc 05-25-07, 05:20 PM	That said, I have yet to see him actually cause a TPK (came close a few months ago though), and like I said he is very enthusiastic about the game, so only a heartless monster would turn him away from a table. I guess that would be me :) Every time I'm playing with him, one of his characters decides to run away when they don't have to, usually putting one or more other characters at risk.
UMiskatonic 05-25-07, 05:59 PM	The two worst I've seen: A cleric 2/wizard 2/monk 2 who offered to spend an entire combat a) offering to cast enlarge person on my BDF, as soon as I was willing to 'hold still', or b) offering to cast CLW on me if I could withdraw to someone safe. Keep in mind, we were up against a number of powerful enemies with spells, and I was taking 20-30 points of damage a round. I knew that I would be dead in four rounds, whether he cast his spell or not, unless I could take one of the enemies out in that amount of time. We were shorthanded, and the opening salvo by the badguys incapacitated half our party. A grey elven wizard with a 10 Con. Having gotten to 6th level, died, and gotten back to 6th level decided to solve his earlier problems by taking...the Run feat. He would cast a spell, get hit with an arrow, and then run away.
copper_wyrmling 05-25-07, 11:41 PM	The two worst I've seen: A cleric 2/wizard 2/monk 2 who offered to spend an entire combat a) offering to cast enlarge person on my BDF, as soon as I was willing to 'hold still', or b) offering to cast CLW on me if I could withdraw to someone safe. Keep in mind, we were up against a number of powerful enemies with spells, and I was taking 20-30 points of damage a round. I knew that I would be dead in four rounds, whether he cast his spell or not, unless I could take one of the enemies out in that amount of time. We were shorthanded, and the opening salvo by the badguys incapacitated half our party. A grey elven wizard with a 10 Con. Having gotten to 6th level, died, and gotten back to 6th level decided to solve his earlier problems by taking...the Run feat. He would cast a spell, get hit with an arrow, and then run away. Those are pretty bad, but I have more sympathy for the first guy. With a build like that, Enlarge Person on the BDF would not normally be a bad tactic (of course, there can always be unusual circumstances that make it a bad idea) - having a reach advantage can change combats, and the extra damage doesn't hurt either. Asking the BDF to stay within 30ft for a round is not normally that big an imposition (since presumably they'll want to be full attacking anyway). Of course, you have to wonder why they've engineered a build with +3 BAB, L1 spells and no skills to speak of at L6. I have more horror GM stories than horror PC stories, I think. Oh wait... there was the L4 paladin, playing up to APL 6, who charged a hill giant and two dire wolves as soon as we spotted them 100ft away. Yes, he was mounted, but he was using a sword, not a lance. He did not have Spirited Charge. And he missed. Next round, one swing from the giant (in addition to the AoO when he went in) dropped him to negatives. The rest of the party, being entirely good-aligned, decided to try to save him - but of course, he was 100ft away, with the hill giant and two dire wolves. The net result was that another PC died, because the only person who could have saved him was way out of position when he went down, due to the rescue attempt. (The paladin died later in the mod. We should've just abandoned him the first time...)
Drezden 05-26-07, 12:09 AM	I think there are a couple of funny points related to him: 1. He is MUCH MUCH better than he used to be! OMG - was he BAD - with his Heavy Armor Using, Great Fortitude Taking Wizards that cast False Life as the party was getting shredded! lol My BDF still carries around one of their heads in his backpack - after his wizard withdrew to cast false life - right into a charge lane!! lol 2. I have DMed tables with him recently - where he had the best character and was maybe the 2nd best player at the table! And I am serious. His highest level character is not that bad - and there are just many, many horrible players that show up at our local venue. Andy (MwAO) was playing with a few of them on one occasion (and I was organizing the tables) and he e-mailed me about the muster, calling it "The Table of Doom." LOL LOL That just fit. Daren I guess that would be me :) Every time I'm playing with him, one of his characters decides to run away when they don't have to, usually putting one or more other characters at risk.
CdrcJsn 05-26-07, 04:44 AM	Anything played by **** ******. I think most Keolanders can fill in the blank. Can I buy a vowel? "A" *A** *A**** amirite? By the way, I'm from california. Never played any keoland mods or gone to any of their conventions. I'm just basing this on past posts on the LG yahoogroup list. Cedric
Drezden 05-26-07, 10:25 AM	Ha, Ha, Ha. Yep that's him. His infamy spreads to both coasts - even though you have even played out here! However, as I said above, he is not even close to worst player that I see anymore. I think Keoland has some of the best (min/maxed) characters and some of the worst in the game too. Daren Can I buy a vowel? "A" *A** *A**** amirite? By the way, I'm from california. Never played any keoland mods or gone to any of their conventions. I'm just basing this on past posts on the LG yahoogroup list. Cedric
thorinXXX 05-26-07, 12:13 PM	Can I buy a vowel? "A" *A** *A**** amirite? By the way, I'm from california. Never played any keoland mods or gone to any of their conventions. I'm just basing this on past posts on the LG yahoogroup list. Cedric That's the one. I had to play 'A Man With Nothing' with him to remove that foul curse. There is nothing like the highest level BDF not having Power Attack in a mod that brutal when playing up. In general, the greatest contributions from any of his characters is the trap finding done with his severed head.
Mommy was an Orc 05-27-07, 03:22 PM	2. I have DMed tables with him recently - where he had the best character and was maybe the 2nd best player at the table! And I am serious. His highest level character is not that bad - and there are just many, many horrible players that show up at our local venue. Andy (MwAO) was playing with a few of them on one occasion (and I was organizing the tables) and he e-mailed me about the muster, calling it "The Table of Doom." LOL LOL That just fit. Daren He's still awful. I was DMing his low level Monk, the wizard is casting Sleep, and his Monk is (in effect) providing cover against archers. So what does he do? He 5' steps out of the way and shoots a light crossbow at them(and misses). The archers then shoot the Wizard, knocking him unconcious. We're playing APL 6, the only reason we're playing APL 6 is because his Wizard is 8th - we're all 4th/5th. The tanks get really badly hurt in the 1st round, so he decides to DDoor away - he asks the party who should he take with him, because he doesn't want his character to die because he's about to level. Fortunately, he listened to reason, but it would have resulted in 4 PC deaths had he done that, no questions asked. The Table of Doom: At one point, he tries to flee up the staircase after my Rogue Archer 3 serving frontline duty nearly got butchered on the 1st round. Why was I on the frontlines when his Wizard 5 had a better AC and a lot more hit points than I did? I don't know...
_metz_ 05-27-07, 08:50 PM	He's still awful. I was DMing his low level Monk, the wizard is casting Sleep, and his Monk is (in effect) providing cover against archers. So what does he do? He 5' steps out of the way and shoots a light crossbow at them(and misses). The archers then shoot the Wizard, knocking him unconcious. We're playing APL 6, the only reason we're playing APL 6 is because his Wizard is 8th - we're all 4th/5th. The tanks get really badly hurt in the 1st round, so he decides to DDoor away - he asks the party who should he take with him, because he doesn't want his character to die because he's about to level. Fortunately, he listened to reason, but it would have resulted in 4 PC deaths had he done that, no questions asked. The Table of Doom: At one point, he tries to flee up the staircase after my Rogue Archer 3 serving frontline duty nearly got butchered on the 1st round. Why was I on the frontlines when his Wizard 5 had a better AC and a lot more hit points than I did? I don't know... Wow. I mean. Wow.
DuctShuiTengu 05-27-07, 11:54 PM	A Cleric who, I'm told, is eventually headed for Radiant Servant. He was 3rd level last I played with him. All his points went into mental stats, so that he had Str 8, Dex 8, and Con 10. We're facing a pair of large animated statues with hardness 5, he's weilding a club and wearing a chain shirt and a buckler (let's do the math here: 18 HP, 14 AC, +1 to hit, 1d6 - 1 damage). We're doing okay; my character (a Dwarven Marshal) can't hit them, but they can't hit him either, and he's keeping their attention off the sorcerer and the archer who are steadily plinking away at them. And then the cleric charges one of them, provoking AoOs from both of them. He takes a fair bit of damage, makes his attack and misses. They come back up, one of them hits him again, the other wiffs at me. It gets back around to him and he runs away, again provoking op attacks from both, and barely avoids going down as a result. Over the next couple rounds, he burns through all his spells healing back up, and then he charges again. Once again, both statues take their op attacks, because he still hasn't even been smart enough to move to where only one could reach him. He actually hits this time, rolls max damage and (as everyone else at the table had told him would happen) it's negated by their hardness. He runs away again, and now uses all our scrolls of cure light wounds to once again recover.
Zanzibax 05-28-07, 12:02 AM	The worst both build and later during play character is... A cleric designed to cast buffs at an encounter's beginning, specialized for melee fighting. Such clerics (there are some out there) create a threat to all other PCs by contributing very little or nothing during the key rounds of combat (usually all of them). I was wondering what the worst both build and later during play character was.. We have a 6th Level Monk that is a: Blind in one eye Has one hand Cursed (high level) can only act 50% of the time Has lycanthrophy (has not become aware of it as a character) with Werecroc Cursed with possible 17 round daze Has died three times 2nd place is 5th Level Barbarian 4 Int, 6 Wis, 2 Cha (after curse from stealing jewels) Died four times 22 adventures to achieve level 5 (with two core specials and four double adventures)
GenghisBob 05-28-07, 01:36 AM	The luck of Olidammara will only carry one so far, but everyone's number comes up eventually. :D DOn't i know it!
Maesto 05-28-07, 02:14 AM	Eck... While you're on the subject of Keoland, is there any group playing in Ithaca? I'm moving there later this year to go to Cornell university. There are bad PC builds, and then there are bad Players. It's hard to make a bad PC build. Sub-optimal, definitely, subiconic, yeah, that too, but downright bad? No, not quite so easy. On the other hand, bad players? yeah, trivial. There's one bloke I've had to play with who just isn't a team player, and doesn't realise it. Two examples: A magic mouth appears and says "Speak two words and enter, lest ye die to the foul magics this door encompasses" or something along those lines. Player: "I touch the door". Prismatic spray goes off on the party, boom. Other example: We're exploring new territory on a diplomatic mission. Natives jump out and attack; I cast calm emotions, all fail their saves. I tell the party "Let us speak, there is no need for hostilities" (and have a 30+ diplo mod to go with it). The player? full power attacks the nearest native... I've got a lot of bad player stories, a few bad DM stories, but not many bad PC stories at all.
clik_ml 05-28-07, 02:50 AM	The worst both build and later during play character is... A cleric designed to cast buffs at an encounter's beginning, specialized for melee fighting. Such clerics (there are some out there) create a threat to all other PCs by contributing very little or nothing during the key rounds of combat (usually all of them). Ehhh, if a cleric is properly specialized for melee fighting then it should kick a fair amount of ass pre-buffed, and kick unbelievable amounts of ass while buffed. The trick is knowing when you have time to buff (or can make time by throwing down battlefield control to stall) and when you don't need to buff. Not always, but often I find myself having time to throw on a buff or two at the start of combat with my characters, since we either spot the enemy far off, or have terrain issues that prevent closing in the first round. I usually want the enemy to close so I can trade a full attack for their move-attack anywho. There are so many worse things than the archtype described there that it doesn't even make my list. Now I've played with an 8 ftr/3 wiz who self buffed for the first few rounds (enlarge person+ other buff) whilst playing down to APL 4 (with everyone else playing up), and then proceeded to fight poorly from the back and let the lower level guys take the licks. That's an extreme that is far worse than any melee cleric. I've also played with a swashbuckler whose most significant contribution to combat was healing the enemies during combat while the party was getting their ass kicked (actually kicked the 2nd time, because we had to run away and return with a better plan from a near TPK the first time for that static encounter). I've been at a gameday where one wizard managed to kill two PCs with a fireball whilst in a fairly rough battle (I don't think it even killed any bad guys in that blast). Same player as the swashbuckler. I dunno if he's supremely incompetent or just a griefer. But he got an evil act for that bit of friendly fire. Same player again has gotten another evil act in a different mod by accusing another player of being a monster in disguise in front of an angry mob... and we just ignored him when yet another of his characters in a different mod accused one of my characters of stealing food from a starving village in front of a sherrif. If we paid attention to him, that probably could have turned into another evil act. I can't believe I keep winding up having to play tables with this guy.
CdrcJsn 05-28-07, 03:59 AM	I've been at a gameday where one wizard managed to kill two PCs with a fireball whilst in a fairly rough battle (I don't think it even killed any bad guys in that blast). Same player as the swashbuckler. I dunno if he's supremely incompetent or just a griefer. But he got an evil act for that bit of friendly fire. That shouldn't have been just an evil act. Attacking another PC is grounds for removal of that character from the campaign.
clik_ml 05-28-07, 07:57 AM	That shouldn't have been just an evil act. Attacking another PC is grounds for removal of that character from the campaign. It was centered on a bad guy I believe, but definitely could be grounds for removal. There are times when it makes good sense to catch friends in area affects to get the baddies, but I don't think this was one of those times. I was at another table adjacent to it, so I don't know the specific details (just much of the grousing that has followed) and I dunno if the wizard was warned that it was an evil act or that it could get his character pulled beforehand.
thorinXXX 05-28-07, 01:33 PM	The general rule of thumb for AOE spells and friendlies is it is OK if the players are OK. If the players are not OK and it is deliberate, it is grounds for immediate removal.
Genghis Cohen 05-28-07, 04:32 PM	I guess that would be me :) Every time I'm playing with him, one of his characters decides to run away when they don't have to, usually putting one or more other characters at risk.I would back you up 100% if you turned him away. He is the classic example of an incompetent player causing other people's PCs to die. **** ****** has been this way since I started playing LG over two years ago. I doubt that he thinks that he has a problem. Maybe we need to organize an intervention.
Prof. Pacali 05-28-07, 06:15 PM	I would back you up 100% if you turned him away. He is the classic example of an incompetent player causing other people's PCs to die. **** ****** has been this way since I started playing LG over two years ago. I doubt that he thinks that he has a problem. Maybe we need to organize an intervention. There are plenty of problems with his style of play, but like I said before he is the most enthusiastic player of LG that I have met so far. (Not the weirdest, that would be the guy Ghengis Cohen and I played a table with at Ubercon last October. I could tell you stories about that loon that would make your hair curl.) I'm not sure how much constructive criticism would be helpful. In the intro mod where he played the monk, everyone at the table seemed to have trouble adjusting to the classes they were playing. After some nudging from the DM, most of us were able to adjust our tactics to avoid a TPK in the first combat. But the player in question didn't take the hints, from the DM or the other players, that his monk should not rely on a heavy crossbow, since his PC lacks ranged combat feats, it takes too long to reload, and he could do more good in melee. The problem isn't that his play style puts the entire party in danger of a TPK, but that he doesn't know better. He honestly thinks that his monk will do more good by taking the occaisonal potshot than closing to melee, that his paladin should waste time drinking a CLW potion when he is one of the only ones at the table who can hurt the BBEG. I don't think sitting him down and explaining tactics to him would do more than hurt the guy's feelings. (For those who haven't met him, he's a Vietnam vet living on disability who lives for these games. Saying anything harsh to him would be like bashing in the brains of a baby seal, IMO.)
Genghis Cohen 05-28-07, 06:47 PM	I don't think sitting him down and explaining tactics to him would do more than hurt the guy's feelings. (For those who haven't met him, he's a Vietnam vet living on disability who lives for these games. Saying anything harsh to him would be like bashing in the brains of a baby seal, IMO.)Putting it that way, it wouldn't be very humane. He does seem very sensitive, and criticism could be crushing to him. While guarding his feelings is a worthwhile goal, so is preserving an enjoyable play environment for all. There's got to be a way to approach him and make him a better player without hurting him. I don't know the best way to this.
dkay807 05-28-07, 08:44 PM	Ket-Tusmit Bordercon 2005. APL 6 Ket module. The party is escorting a prisoner to an undisclosed location - a prisoner that knows valuable information on the enemies of the Kettite government, so every combat along the way consists of assasination attempts on the NPC prisoner. Second Combat - LUCIFER (PC's name) takes the following actions: 1. "That wizard has a weasel familiar!? I pull my snake familiar out of the pouch and move up to the window" 2. "I drop my snak familiar through the window and command it to attack the evil wizard's familiar. I walk around the wall." 3. "I move up to the weasel familiar and attack it with my quarterstaff." Combat is over. Final Combat - The party is pinned inside of a defensable outpost. A party of "bad guys" demands we send the prisnor out to them or no one will be hurt. LUCIFER, the 5th level sorceror declares that he will disguise himself as the prisner and walk out. We suggest that it may not be a good idea. He decides to do it anyway. He walks out, gets smacked with a sudden maximized fireball at caster level 9. He's dead any way you slice it. He begins crying and asks for a "do-over" every 3 minutes. Yeah, it was that bad.
_metz_ 05-28-07, 11:57 PM	Putting it that way, it wouldn't be very humane. He does seem very sensitive, and criticism could be crushing to him. While guarding his feelings is a worthwhile goal, so is preserving an enjoyable play environment for all. There's got to be a way to approach him and make him a better player without hurting him. I don't know the best way to this. I have found that a lot of people accept criticism of if you structure it to have ago at someone ELSE. (I do HR, management and did a lot of Cadets stuff so have found it to be extremely effective). Sit the guy down, and tell him a story of another player, e.g: "Steve" e.g: Steve plays a melee class and refuses to go into combat all the time, and just shoots his Bow, even though he isn't proficient. This is really annoying to other players. Drag it out, criticizing such activities without ever naming him, a scenario he has been in, or even the same class/weapons. Eventually his tactics will change, as he tries to emulate what other people think is good play, without any of you ever having to criticize him. Just a suggestion.
Potato Weasel 05-29-07, 10:53 AM	Also you could point out that if his character has a good dex and he really enjoys sniping, he can retrain under the new rules. Just thought of another character I abhor (I believe thats the word, stronger than hate, right? not some kind of pickle?) a fairly high level cleric thats supposedly LG with the good domain and constantly talks about doing vile, vile things, to women, to corpses, etc. and framing the rest of the players for crimes. He also refuses to heal others unless 'he has to' stakes mainly self buff spells (which i have yet to see him actually use, at one point we were in a final high level encounter where we bit off more than we could chew, and he spent the entire combat on the other side of the map, self buffing in preparation for offscreen baddies that it was made obvious repeated times would absolutely under no circumstances join combat, we ended up barely finishing off the big bads just as his divine power ended, he hadn't done anything but buff and wait.) I really need more punctuation: I'm sorry.
bitznarf 05-29-07, 10:56 AM	Just thought of another character I abhor (I believe thats the word, stronger than hate, right? not some kind of pickle?) a fairly high level cleric thats supposedly LG with the good domain and constantly talks about doing vile, vile things, to women, to corpses, etc. and framing the rest of the players for crimes. I sure hope this is an issue with the PC and not one with the player. As a GM I would probably just not award XP to that PC for that encounter, he didn't participate in it.
UMiskatonic 05-29-07, 11:09 AM	Eventually his tactics will change, as he tries to emulate what other people think is good play, without any of you ever having to criticize him. Positive reinforcement (praise) has been shown to be much more effective than negative reinforcement (yelling). I saw this in my high school classroom every day, and psych research agrees. So, whenever this guy does anything close to good, make sure you immediately tell him what a great move that was. If you are playing at the table, and other people do great things, praise them as well. Over four hours, you can really start to have an effect...
_metz_ 05-29-07, 11:25 AM	Positive reinforcement (praise) has been shown to be much more effective than negative reinforcement (yelling). I saw this in my high school classroom every day, and psych research agrees. So, whenever this guy does anything close to good, make sure you immediately tell him what a great move that was. If you are playing at the table, and other people do great things, praise them as well. Over four hours, you can really start to have an effect... Exactly. Criticise without criticising, and comment on 'good' choices continuously. I will put up with any player, regardless of how incompetent, if they are nice. Its the DM's job to kill people off, and as long as the person isn't deliberately getting you killed, they will never rank as 'worst character ever' When I am DM I don't go easy on stupid playing, If the PCs do something really dumb they cop it, but when I am a player I only comment on other people's characters IN character (well these days, I used to be more annoying, I've learned hehehe yay maturity)
Timlagor 05-29-07, 01:45 PM	If he's really enthusiastic then it should be really really easy to engage him in a discussion of tactics. It sounds like it would be well worth devoting a considerable chunk of one of your sessions to discussing possible scenarios in character (arrange it with the GM first and pick a relatively quick module or a session when you have no time pressure)
Samwise 05-29-07, 02:28 PM	Positive reinforcement (praise) has been shown to be much more effective than negative reinforcement (yelling). I saw this in my high school classroom every day, and psych research agrees. So, whenever this guy does anything close to good, make sure you immediately tell him what a great move that was. If you are playing at the table, and other people do great things, praise them as well. Over four hours, you can really start to have an effect... Positive reinforcement is useless without negative feedback and consequences of poor choices. The problem is, the main form of negative feedback in LG is that it is devastating to a session. That is, make a mistake, a character dies or loses a significant amount of equipment or rewards. Just pointing out what works will never end what doesn't work unless you also explain and demonstrate why those other things do not work. The problem with that is, it also hits up against a major gaming taboo, telling someone how to play their character. (I'm sure MWAO recalls the game where the DM chastised me for reminding a player that administering a potion was a full round action, and that the PC at -9 would be dead if he waited to do that next round instead of using a wand of cure light wounds right away.) And it is quite possible to give negative feedback without yelling. You just have to be able to say "No, that is wrong, try it again." five hundred times in a row until someone does the task right, without yelling. It isn't that hard, and I've done it with kids as young as 4, and with disabilities including autism.
MatteBlack 05-30-07, 03:00 AM	Positive reinforcement is useless without negative feedback and consequences of poor choices. The problem is, the main form of negative feedback in LG is that it is devastating to a session. That is, make a mistake, a character dies or loses a significant amount of equipment or rewards. Just pointing out what works will never end what doesn't work unless you also explain and demonstrate why those other things do not work. The problem with that is, it also hits up against a major gaming taboo, telling someone how to play their character. (I'm sure MWAO recalls the game where the DM chastised me for reminding a player that administering a potion was a full round action, and that the PC at -9 would be dead if he waited to do that next round instead of using a wand of cure light wounds right away.) And it is quite possible to give negative feedback without yelling. You just have to be able to say "No, that is wrong, try it again." five hundred times in a row until someone does the task right, without yelling. It isn't that hard, and I've done it with kids as young as 4, and with disabilities including autism. I come from a similar professional background as yourself and would suggest that this might be more of a case where teaching is needed more than behavior modification. Negative feedback is one thing but, I question whether consequences are needed or even appropriate for fellow players to be adminstering. Based on all I have read and my experience, I think you are being overly dismissive toward good instruction and positive reinforcement. Making sure that the player understands "the right way" should be the first step. Since the player's bad moves are a known issue, you could possibly bring up better ways to play at time other than when he needs to make the decision. Maybe ask the DM beforehand if you can give him some pointers through the game to diffuse the aforemantioned Taboo situation. Discussing possible pitfalls before decisions come up or debriefing past mistakes in a non-confrontational manner could also improve the situation in time. If the player makes disruptive moves in order gain attention or likes to set off other players, then a behavioral approach may be more in order. Ignoring the mistakes or at least minimally addressing them and praising good/smart choices will likely be the most effective. Trying to punish his actions with consequences could make things worse or play into the behavior and likely more disruptive to other players. Not to mention bringing needless negativity into the situation if he just needed some tips on how to play.
Samwise 05-30-07, 02:54 PM	I come from a similar professional background as yourself and would suggest that this might be more of a case where teaching is needed more than behavior modification. Negative feedback is one thing but, I question whether consequences are needed or even appropriate for fellow players to be adminstering. Based on all I have read and my experience, I think you are being overly dismissive toward good instruction and positive reinforcement. Behavior modification isn't needed. It is depth of ability to use the rules that is needed. And negative feedback is not used solely to modify behavior, it is also used to modify performance, or, in this case, to inspire expanding depth of ability. As I said, there is indeed a very big question as to whether negative feedback is appropriate in a gaming situation. The problem is that without it, there are no consequences for not learning to be a better player, and no matter how attractive gaining praise might be, it is not sufficient of its own to create a need to learn to play better. That just means the task of effecting a change may be extremely difficult to impossible. And I think you are being overly dismissive toward negative feedback. In my experience, providing only positive reinforcement (I am assuming good instruction as a required default) will not only fail to improve those areas praised as it creates a belief that what is already being done is "good enough," it also degrades improvement in areas not criticised as the person points to the areas praised as sufficient justification for everything to be acceptable to any observer. Mind you, my experience is a divergent field, and I feel that much of what I must do is "tainted" by poor theories being used in other teaching environments, and because the primary negative feedback tool I would use for adults is simply not feasible for use with children. But I cite significant depth of experience and consultation with others in the field as support. You need that negative feedback to correct many issues of performance.
MatteBlack 05-30-07, 03:14 PM	Behavior modification isn't needed. It is depth of ability to use the rules that is needed. And negative feedback is not used solely to modify behavior, it is also used to modify performance, or, in this case, to inspire expanding depth of ability. As I said, there is indeed a very big question as to whether negative feedback is appropriate in a gaming situation. The problem is that without it, there are no consequences for not learning to be a better player, and no matter how attractive gaining praise might be, it is not sufficient of its own to create a need to learn to play better. That just means the task of effecting a change may be extremely difficult to impossible. And I think you are being overly dismissive toward negative feedback. In my experience, providing only positive reinforcement (I am assuming good instruction as a required default) will not only fail to improve those areas praised as it creates a belief that what is already being done is "good enough," it also degrades improvement in areas not criticised as the person points to the areas praised as sufficient justification for everything to be acceptable to any observer. Mind you, my experience is a divergent field, and I feel that much of what I must do is "tainted" by poor theories being used in other teaching environments, and because the primary negative feedback tool I would use for adults is simply not feasible for use with children. But I cite significant depth of experience and consultation with others in the field as support. You need that negative feedback to correct many issues of performance. We are probably mostly of a same mind here but, it needs to be clear that negative feedback and consequences are two seperate things. If they make a mistake let them know why it was bad and even let the poor choice stand and have what effect it will but, it's probably best if we stop short of berating them or attempting punish the behavior. It can go wrong alot of different ways beyond the specific behavior we are trying to address. It has been my experience that alot of attention-seeking personalities are drawn to RP and very frequently you can ignore attempts to gain "bad attention" and praise good choices to very good effect on improving play habits. Have a good one. I am sure you have some long days too. Hopefully the guys dealing with this bad player can make some headway and improve the situation.
codyknotts 05-31-07, 10:03 AM	How about this guy? Dr. Eugene Brilliance S: 10 D: 12 C: 14 I: 18 W: 8 C: 8 Rogue 1 Feats: Improved Feint, Combat Expertise Actually played this character to 3rd level and then retired him All levels of Rogue Took Improved Toughness at 3rd
Reylance 05-31-07, 12:15 PM	Looks like it could be a good arcane trickster, with retraining Improved Toughness and Improved Feint.
_metz_ 05-31-07, 12:18 PM	How about this guy? Dr. Eugene Brilliance S: 10 D: 12 C: 14 I: 18 W: 8 C: 8 Rogue 1 Feats: Improved Feint, Combat Expertise Actually played this character to 3rd level and then retired him All levels of Rogue Took Improved Toughness at 3rd Retraining and take Unseen Seer Levels, and you have a good character there.
codyknotts 06-19-07, 11:52 AM	New Nominee for Worst Character ever Fighter level one Specialized in Whip and Disarm. High Dex, no Str S: 10 D: 16 C: 14 I: 14 W: 10 C: 10 He uses Rapier also Feats Ex. Weapon Prof: Whip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Level Two Fighter Two Weapon Fighting Uses Double Whip Surprisingly this character does not during a fight, but attempt disarm. Wearing nothing heavier than chain shirt also.
Southernskies 06-20-07, 07:12 AM	Against foes that use weapons, its a useful build. But depending on regional flavour, he'll be useless in around 50% of all combats.
boolean 06-21-07, 03:17 AM	Against foes that use weapons, its a useful build. This character has +8 to disarm. (BAB +2, Str 10 +0, Whip bonus +2, Imp. Disarm +4). A CR1/2 Orc warrior has +8 to resist being disarmed. (BAB +1, Str 17 +3, 2-handed weapon +4). Two weapon fighting just gives him the ability to fail more often, by reducing his attack roll to +4/+4. A disarmer could be a good build, but this one isn't. If he had Weapon Finesse instead of 2WF, and used a single whip wielded in two hands, he'd have +15 instead. Of course, at this point he should probably take EWP: Spiked Chain instead of Whip. 5ft. less reach, but just as good at disarming, plus the ability to deal real damage when you can't disarm.
Wraith235 06-21-07, 01:01 PM	what reigon is this whip fighter in .... because he MAY be hoping for access to the Whip dagger .... or saving money to join a Meta-org that gives Access to the Whipdagger
zoinks69 06-21-07, 01:41 PM	Imp. Toughness is base fort of +2, right?
codyknotts 06-21-07, 04:52 PM	what reigon is this whip fighter in .... because he MAY be hoping for access to the Whip dagger .... or saving money to join a Meta-org that gives Access to the Whipdagger He is from Keoland
Wraith235 06-21-07, 08:03 PM	well I went Looking ... but the Keoland Region site seems like it may be under constructionmaybe Look for Whip daggers in a Metaorg Book / AR compilation .... if its there ... I woiuld Suspect that hes headed for Whip dagger use (I wanted to make a swashbuckler that dual wielded Whipdaggers)
shadownox 06-26-07, 01:17 AM	Despite never playing in Keoland and i do look forward to it someday i do have a fighter/barb/bw/warshaper who has ****** of the bk and dyvers regions, for one i have a curse that makes all devils and devil subtypes, baatezu's, bone devils, bearded devils etc.... invisible to me so i can not see them without assistance from spellcasters, i also have a curse where if i die the only thing that can save my character is a a miracle, where will i get that in lg, when playing mods that happen to include devils and such i'am there first target (and i can't see them, raise dead's 50% chance they fail, i have a cult in the county of urnst looking to kill me, all core mods i play the lifestyle cost is x 10. so yeah it sounds like i really ****** off some people anyway that is my 2 cents.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 03:32 AM	Despite never playing in Keoland and i do look forward to it someday i do have a fighter/barb/bw/warshaper who has ****** of the bk and dyvers regions, for one i have a curse that makes all devils and devil subtypes, baatezu's, bone devils, bearded devils etc.... invisible to me so i can not see them without assistance from spellcasters, i also have a curse where if i die the only thing that can save my character is a a miracle, where will i get that in lg, when playing mods that happen to include devils and such i'am there first target (and i can't see them, raise dead's 50% chance they fail, i have a cult in the county of urnst looking to kill me, all core mods i play the lifestyle cost is x 10. so yeah it sounds like i really ****** off some people anyway that is my 2 cents. Try a Remove Curse/Break Enchantment. Of course there may be a caster level component. Check it out. Even a PC in the same party as you may be able to get rid of it. (Divine Spell Power helps for example)
draxynnic 06-28-07, 05:02 AM	Try a Remove Curse/Break Enchantment. Of course there may be a caster level component. Check it out. Even a PC in the same party as you may be able to get rid of it. (Divine Spell Power helps for example) Not any more - that one got Closed.
_metz_ 06-28-07, 05:05 AM	Not any more - that one got Closed. Really? damn. I had a mate use that to get rid of a nasty curse :) (prior to it being closed obviously).
draxynnic 06-28-07, 06:16 AM	Really? damn. I had a mate use that to get rid of a nasty curse :) (prior to it being closed obviously). Some of the combinations you could get out of it were just a little broken. That said, to add insult to injury, there are still modules out there where the bad guys use it (and/or its also-Closed cousin, Divine Metamagic).