Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Donald_Cannith 02-25-07, 09:18 PM	I have a new Two weapon fighting build. Human(Touv): Str:16 Dex:16 Con:14 Int: 8 Wis:10 Cha: 8 Fighter 1: Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Fighting( Two Bladed Sword or Orc Doubl Axe, whichever you prefer) Fighter 2:Weapon Focus: ( TBS or ODA) Fighter 3:Mobility Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: (TBS or ODA) Fighter 5: Fighter 6: Elusive Target,Improved Two Weapon Fighting Exotic Weapon Master1: Flurry of Strikes Fighter 7: Fighter 8: Melee Weapon Mastery( Slashing), Two Weapon Pounce Fighter 9: Fighter:10: Greater Weapon Focus: ( TBS or ODA) Fighter 11:Two Weapon Rend Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (TBS or ODA) Fighter 13 Fighter 14: Slashing Flurry, Greater Two Weapon Fighting On a full attack you get up to 8 Attacks and if you hit with all of those you get 4 more d6's + 1.5 Str Damage. Elusive Target is cool and I personally very much enjoy it but that whole thing could easily be turned into the path to Shock Trooper or Combat Brute if you want it to. or possibly just a variety of useful low level feats like Improved buckler Defense, Close Quarters Combat,and Shield Specialization ( Buckler)
Sieylianna 02-26-07, 07:51 AM	It seems awful one-dimensional to me. What are you going to do when there isn't a fight going on? Personally, I'd start with two levels of ranger for the skills, it still gives you the two weapon fighting feat and then go into fighter. Ed
Donald_Cannith 02-26-07, 08:58 AM	Well if i do that, first off I never get Slashing Fury because my fighter level will never be hgh enough for me to get Greater Weapon Specialization. I do get two skill points per level which go into Craft Weaponry (to profit off of extra TU when they may occur) and splitting the rest between climb and Jump as those are useful combat skills rom time to time. Besides,Outside battle I don't have to do much. Thats what the party face is for and LG has NEVER been about outside of battle for as long as I've been playing, which granted has only been a few months. It always seems like even if we do not know exactly whats going on, we still manage to get to where we need to be. Honestly, every time I build a balanced character he turnso ut underpowered and useless to the party, not that thats been a problem becasue usually hes the one who ges massacred through something odd. Only the cheesy characters seem to excel in LG. So, until the system changes ot where LG is more like a regular campaign, i will no longer treat it like one.
bhale187 02-26-07, 09:06 AM	Besides,Outside battle I don't have to do much. Thats what the party face is for and LG has NEVER been about outside of battle for as long as I've been playing, which granted has only been a few months. It always seems like even if we do not know exactly whats going on, we still manage to get to where we need to be. That is certainly a regional aspect rather than a campaign wide fact. I find our regional mods requiring more time solving mysteries and resolving things though the use of skills.
Donald_Cannith 02-26-07, 02:39 PM	Well then that's all weel and good but since I am in the region i am in, I just dont see how to make this character mre skills intensive withotu giving u pwhat i deem to be too much. Is it worth having a small amount o skill points in two extra skills to give up an extra attack and along with it another d6 + 1.5 Str damage. My persona lfeeling is that this LGCS the fighter got a huge boon by the opening up of all tose new feats and honestlythe fighter has finally become a class that ifeel good taking 14 levels of( and honestly if the high level option expands to the point where I would go higher i would.) That said my character does have outside combat skills. How often are you insituatiosn where climbing and jumping could be important. I mean thats jsut my role in the party. what kind of a skill bump could I possibly get in 2 levels of ranger that would change my dynamic?
bhale187 02-26-07, 03:27 PM	what kind of a skill bump could I possibly get in 2 levels of ranger that would change my dynamic? Survival for one, since you'd have the tracking feat. Especially now that you could retrain at high levels to further boost your survival ranks. Spot as a second because it would allow for you to be a front scout as well as a front line meat shield. However, if you are not interested in doing anything outside of fighting in the game and/or you are set on this build as it stands those skills are pointless.
Mommy was an Orc 02-26-07, 03:30 PM	Well then that's all weel and good but since I am in the region i am in, I just dont see how to make this character mre skills intensive withotu giving u pwhat i deem to be too much. Is it worth having a small amount o skill points in two extra skills to give up an extra attack and along with it another d6 + 1.5 Str damage.what kind of a skill bump could I possibly get in 2 levels of ranger that would change my dynamic? If you retrain every other level, you can max out 2 Ranger skills. Say Spot and Survival. That makes you stop surprise combats and find tracks. This is made easier if you delay Ranger 2 until 3rd(not a huge deal as you get Fighter 1 in there) Example: Level 4: 2 ranks into Jump Level 5: 2 ranks into Jump Level 6: 2 ranks into Jump Level 7: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Spot Level 8: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Survival Level 9: 2 ranks into Jump Level 10: 2 ranks into Jump Level 11: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Spot Level 12: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Survival Yes, somewhat expensive. But that's a pretty significant non-combat contribution you'll be making for the 3800 gold. Also, you've got Wood Elf stats going there. Is that really worth a feat/skill point? Finally, if you EWP: Bastard Sword, you can get OTWF for Uncanny Blow instead of Flurry. Especially with Power Attack, you end up doing a lot more damage
Donald_Cannith 02-26-07, 04:17 PM	[QUOTE=Mommy was an Orc;11596927]If you retrain every other level, you can max out 2 Ranger skills. Say Spot and Survival. That makes you stop surprise combats and find tracks. This is made easier if you delay Ranger 2 until 3rd(not a huge deal as you get Fighter 1 in there) Example: Level 4: 2 ranks into Jump Level 5: 2 ranks into Jump Level 6: 2 ranks into Jump Level 7: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Spot Level 8: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Survival Level 9: 2 ranks into Jump Level 10: 2 ranks into Jump Level 11: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Spot Level 12: 2 ranks into Jump, retrain 4 of the ranks into Survival Yes, somewhat expensive. But that's a pretty significant non-combat contribution you'll be making for the 3800 gold. Also, you've got Wood Elf stats going there. Is that really worth a feat/skill point? Finally, if you EWP: Bastard Sword, you can get OTWF for Uncanny Blow instead of Flurry. Especially with Power Attack, you end up doing a lot more damage[/ quote/] Well I would go wood elf except for 1.) I don't like the con penalty and with the int penalty also I am losing not only 1 hp per level( which I swear I have seen more characters die due to low con than anything else) but also a ne loss of 2 skill points, under wood elf i am getting the same number of skill points that I am actually getting 2.) The extra feat and the non- penalty to strength are why this build isnt a gnome. 3.) I ,as a matter of personal preference, have an eternal hatred for elves. I don't know why. If I go the way you are leaning why waste the feat on EWP I would rather go dwarf, because then I get better saves and EWP for dwarven waraxe which is every bit as good as the bastard sword., which is a definite possibility as then, could boost my wisdom( ala higher will save) or possibly int or just take the extra HP. What are the requirements for OTWF( can I qualify in the space the my dodge, mobility, elusive target are now). Also what do I do for the first few levels before i can fight with two dwarven waraxes. I like the double weapon because I get roughly one point less damage per hit I save myself a headache involving what am i to do before that clicks. The trouble I have with that is there is already a build just like that on these boards( involving great scimitars) and I was going for something a little different from that, which is also why I chose to go the elusive target path as opposed to the other three i was thinking about. Additionally, I understand that the character should have some outside combat capabilities, but if that were such an issue, why would fighters have so few non-combat skills to begin with. It is simply just not what a fighter is for. I am not sure which build does more damage when all is said and done I would have to do the math which I dont really have time to do.
Mommy was an Orc 02-26-07, 04:53 PM	If I go the way you are leaning why waste the feat on EWP I would rather go dwarf, because then I get better saves and EWP for dwarven waraxe which is every bit as good as the bastard sword., which is a definite possibility as then, could boost my wisdom( ala higher will save) or possibly int or just take the extra HP. The advantage of Wood Elf is that you have a 16 in both Str and Dex - that's 20 points for a human, 12 for a Wood Elf. 8 points is enough to raise your Con to 14 and then spend another 4 on Strength for an 18. Additionally, I understand that the character should have some outside combat capabilities, but if that were such an issue, why would fighters have so few non-combat skills to begin with. It is simply just not what a fighter is for. Most Fighters don't have such an easy option, because they are not TWFing. You are and being a maxxed spotter/tracker is a big upgrade at a cost of slightly slower feat progression and 3 hp. I am not sure which build does more damage when all is said and done I would have to do the math which I dont really have time to do. Uncanny Blow means that you do 1d10+(str mod*2) damage instead of 1d8+str or 1d8+(str/2). If you have a 24 Strength, that's 19.5/19.5 per swing vs 11.5/7.5. With 5 attacks vs say 6, that's an extra 48 hp of damage from the 5. The more attacks, the more likely it is that you won't be able to compensate. Also, if people use the Power Attack *2 ruling(yes, I know it is subject to table variation), then you do *a lot* more daamge.
Donald_Cannith 02-26-07, 05:07 PM	Well then ok lets do this like a dwarf and see what his looksl ike, however i am late, so ill post it later. Also, just as an aside, all that retraining is expensive not so much in terms of gold but TU, I play with the same group every week so those TU costs are going to leave me personally far behind the curve. I understand though that as an optimized build it ay be better. Also losing those two extra attacks( which would be more reliable than GTWF) means I lose some rend which I am unsure of how that effects the damage but I do not think it is negligible.
Donald_Cannith 02-27-07, 11:37 AM	Dwarf Stats: str:16 Dex:16 Con: 16 Wis: 10 Int: 8 Cha: 6 Skills; Spot,Jump and Craft Weaponsmithing(6 ranks) Ranger 1: track, favored enemy( evil outsider) Power Attack Ranger 2: Two Weapon Fighting Fighter 1: Close Quarters Combat, Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe. Fighter 2: Improved Two Weapon fighting Fighter 3: Fighter 4: oversized two weapon fighting, Weapon Specialization( Dwarven Waraxe) EWM1: Uncanny blow Fighter 5: Fighter 6: melee Weapon mastery( slashing), Two Weapon Pounce Fighter 7: Fighter 8: Two Weapon rend Fighter 9: Greater Weapon Focus Fighter 10: Greater Two Weapon Fighting Fighter 11: Fighter 12: greater weapon specialization, ( Slashing Flurry?) ( can you take a feat that you didnt qualify for before this level?) It has a slower progression than the other so i am dealing less damage for a longer portion of my tenure but I am ultimately dealing more damage. I don't think I personally like this one as much but Ill let you guys decide if this looks better. To me he looks a little unviable at most of the lower levels because of how long i have to wait to fight reasonably well with my weapon of choice. in TWF style .Also I am beginning to realize, with how much money I have to spend to upgrade both my weapons I may not have that much mone yt ospare. I dont know thoguh asm y highest level characterisat 5th and still hanging around with low gold.
Timlagor 02-27-07, 08:23 PM	You have to wield the weapon in both hands to do Uncanny Blow for 2xStrength damage. There are people who interpret the trick to let you get 2HPA ratios fighting one-handed but I don't believe that is valid and you will certainly meet table variation on it (if you're lucky). You should also be aware that CQC only works if the thing trying to grab you is within your threat range.
Donald_Cannith 02-27-07, 09:51 PM	ok well i actuall like my first build better
Donald_Cannith 02-28-07, 02:00 PM	Upon looking at this some more . Ihave only one issue with the dwarven build...I think it has a certain lack of accuracy which I think may be a problem. any one else think so?
Asaris 02-28-07, 07:01 PM	I actually play a Dwarven TWF (he's even a Tempest now! Yay!), and yes, you miss a lot in the lower levels. But I'm glad I took fighter for the extra feats. The one thing he (still) lacks is Power Attack. Here's the build I used: Dwarven Fighter S: 14 D: 16 C:16 I: 10 W: 8 C: 10 Level BAB FAB Dex Feats 1 F +1 0/0 16 2-W Fighting, WF Dw.Waraxe 2 F +2 1/1 16 Dodge 3 F +3 4/4 16 Oversized 2-W Fighting 4 F +4 5/5 17 Mobility 5 F +5 6/6 17 6 F +6 7/7/1/1 17 Imp. 2-W Fighting, Spring Attack 7 Tmp +7 8/8/2/2 17 8 Tmp +8 10/10/3/3 18 9 Tmp +9 11/11/4/4 18 10 Tmp +10 13/13/5/5/3 18 11 Tmp +11 14/14/6/6/4 18 12 19 Gr. 2-W Fighting Some of the numbers might be a bit off, and I'm still not sure Tempest was a good idea. But I have a good time playing him. If I had to do it again, I'd probably put fewer point into Charisma (and not have spent that skill point on knowledge(planes).)
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 12:00 AM	I looked at tempest and im not sure it would wor kfor me.. thats more for a mobility based build and thats not really what i am going for. if i took elusive target it was going to be for the cool negation of power attack and the attacking of enemies.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:18 AM	[All my opinion obviously but that doesn't mean it's not objectively right :D] * Anyone with Mobility should take Elusive Target** * Tempest is a weak PrC (it won't kill your character but virtually anythign else is better). * Spring Attack is a bad idea in general and a terrible idea for TWF. * TWF should be done only if you have non-Str bonuses to damage with each hit. Here's why: - you have twice the weapon costs - you invest a lot of Feats (and attributes) to even get 1:1 PA with each hand which gives you no gain over the 2HF guy who also has all those Feats to spend elsewhere. - You suffer even more when you don't get to full attack **Seriously. People take all three fEats purely for the sake of getting ET: it's just that good.
Asaris 03-01-07, 01:15 PM	Well, I do have a ninth level feat coming up eventually, and nothing to do with it. And I've never said he was the most effective character. But as far as I can tell, he's good enough to contribute in a fight.
AnexCDC 03-01-07, 01:33 PM	I am building the dwarf build atm. The pre-reqs for Oversized Offhand is str of 13 and TWF. Personally I find the majority of you build good. I do think that 2 levels of ranger would give some outside of combat use, and wouldn't hurt your combat effectiveness that much. You will still greater GWS, but it will be 15th level that you get it. I do not believe slashing flurry is worth it to be honest; taking a -5 on all of your already numerous attacks to get 1 more additional attack will only be useful against monsters in which your secondaries will hit anyways. Having played an archer at the high level, I find that that rarely happens. All said there is nothing wrong with your original build, and while ranger would give you some more options, its not at all necessary.
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 01:39 PM	[All my opinion obviously but that doesn't mean it's not objectively right :D] * TWF should be done only if you have non-Str bonuses to damage with each hit. - You suffer even more when you don't get to full attack **Seriously. People take all three fEats purely for the sake of getting ET: it's just that good. what kind of non-Str bonuses( boni?) are you talking about. are we talking the weapon specialization feats or are we talking magic or what. i understand no full attack hurts , which i why I have hesitated to tdo this before now. However, TWP is now out and its only at the point where I could get TWP that that would truly start hurting me alot more than it would hurt our buddy the longsword wielder with a shield. I did the math and with how high I need to get my Dex anyay iam going to be in good shape as far as AC is concerned9 assuming a meager + ring of protection and + 3 Amulet of natural armor and + 4 armor I ultimately wind up with a 35. However, most importantly, Its just gonna look really cool. And ET is super good and hwy more people dont have it a mystery beyond my abilities.
Alpha_Nerd 03-01-07, 01:49 PM	What they mean by non-Strength bonuses to damage is stuff like Sneak Attack or Arcane Strike. Personally I would recommend keeping in the 2 levels of Ranger, and using a Dwarven Urgosh. With 1 level of EWM you can grab Flurry of Strikes to get another attack and you don't have to spend a feat on OTWF.
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 02:00 PM	well the thnig is if iwas going to go that route why wouldnt i just use my first build with the flurry of strikes and the orc double axe. Are those two levels of ranger really going to make this build that much better? I mean accordinto what your saying ishoul start off with two levels of rouge for the meager + 1d6 sneak attack.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 02:35 PM	The builds listed are going to perform adequately. They're just going to be a long way behind even the more basic 2HF guys. By non-Strength bonuses I meant things like - Sneak Attack (more than 1d6) - Intuitive Strike (Int) - Elegant Strike (Dex) - Skirmish (for Dervishes only) - Arcane Strike (for Monks only because it's one weapon at a time) - Dervish Damage I'm sure there are other options. (Greater) Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery begins to get into this category too and they certainly look more attractive if you are going with TWF but they aren't really enough to justify TWF on their own (I don't think). [Add in the Dervish bonuses and it's ability to get more full attacks in and you're in the right ballpark though] TWF is a BIG investment. If you go for 1d6 SnAt then you should look long and hard at Staggering Strike. My udnerstanding is that double Weapons count as 1H+light so you can only PA with one side. 2 Levels or ranger does offer a great deal to someone with high Dex: + Weapon Style Feat in same levels as Fighter levels could get it. (assumed you already have at least Fighter2 planned if Ranger is a 'dip') + Track + Good skills (even better with Retraining available) + Wand Use + Save boost + One Favoured Enemy too but that's not huge) An Amulet of Health is generally considered a better investment than an Amulet of Natural Armour.
Alpha_Nerd 03-01-07, 02:39 PM	From what I've heard you can Power Attack with both sides of a Double Weapon, it's just that you are considered using a light weapon for purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting.
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 02:52 PM	Well then timlagor, show me a good TWF build then based on one of those things. personally i think the balance pays for itself in shear nmber of attacks. More attacks, more hits, more criticals. yielding slightly less damage but on a more accurate basis than THF power attacking( which is where all the extra damage comes from)
Timlagor 03-01-07, 03:02 PM	I'm talking about things like: Rogue 10/X 5 (probably with Swashbuckler 3 now there's a Feat for them) Fighter 4/X1/Dervish 10 Scout X/Fighter-&or-Ranger Y/Dervish Z Ranger2/Fighter2/Barb1/CoCL2/WRunner6/OS2 (..or something like that. I did design such a build and it looks ok on paper but I haven't played it yet; I posted it on the CO board and the LGChardiscussion yahoo group if you really want to dig it up) Even so they don't generally do more damage than the 2HF guys. That's my point: TWF is hard to make worthwhile compared to 2HF. Twice the criticals for half the damage is no improvement. The 2HF guy already has +2 to hit on you just by not taking TWF and then he can spend all those TWF Feats on more damage or accuracy (or anything else he likes).
Donald_Cannith 03-01-07, 03:29 PM	i know that buti mean the THF fighter is old and is being doen to death recently( especially at my regular game) and i want to do something a little bit different.
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 10:58 AM	I have a new Two weapon fighting build. Human(Touv): Str:16 Dex:16 Con:14 Int: 8 Wis:10 Cha: 8 Fighter 1: Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Fighting( Two Bladed Sword or Orc Doubl Axe, whichever you prefer) Fighter 2:Weapon Focus: ( TBS or ODA) Fighter 3:Mobility Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: (TBS or ODA) Fighter 5: Fighter 6: Elusive Target,Improved Two Weapon Fighting Exotic Weapon Master1: Flurry of Strikes Fighter 7: Fighter 8: Melee Weapon Mastery( Slashing), Two Weapon Pounce Fighter 9: Fighter:10: Greater Weapon Focus: ( TBS or ODA) Fighter 11:Two Weapon Rend Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (TBS or ODA) Fighter 13 Fighter 14: Slashing Flurry, Greater Two Weapon Fighting On a full attack you get up to 8 Attacks and if you hit with all of those you get 4 more d6's + 1.5 Str Damage. Elusive Target is cool and I personally very much enjoy it but that whole thing could easily be turned into the path to Shock Trooper or Combat Brute if you want it to. or possibly just a variety of useful low level feats like Improved buckler Defense, Close Quarters Combat,and Shield Specialization ( Buckler) Your secondary and tertiary attacks will be made at substantial penalties. Either put all your focus on STR or take Weapon Finesse and put in into DEX. Better to hit low and often than high and rarely.
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 11:48 AM	I'm talking about things like: Rogue 10/X 5 (probably with Swashbuckler 3 now there's a Feat for them) . An example of this would now be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 10/Fighter 2 - has mostly Fighter hit points/BAB, doesn't need a phenomenal dex, just merely good, and ends up with +7d6 Sneak+2 extra damage per swing. Pick up Deadly Defense to add +1d6 every time you put 2 into Combat Expertise. That's an average of +30 damage applied every time you swing for sneak attack damage.
Donald_Cannith 03-02-07, 01:27 PM	yeah but I mean, I want this thing to be survivable at all levels. Level one with a rogue is like asking for death to rain down on you. Were talking + nothing to hit
Gaelforcwynd 03-02-07, 01:45 PM	yeah but I mean, I want this thing to be survivable at all levels. Level one with a rogue is like asking for death to rain down on you. Were talking + nothing to hit 1st level Rogue is very survivable, you might get to 2nd level with one or two fights.
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 01:49 PM	yeah but I mean, I want this thing to be survivable at all levels. Level one with a rogue is like asking for death to rain down on you. Were talking + nothing to hit Plenty of people can survive level 1 with a Rogue - at that point, you're not the primary fighter, so don't pretend to be. After that, do what you want. I'll post the current build in another thread...
Donald_Cannith 03-02-07, 02:04 PM	..