0 STR question [Archive] - Wizards Community

0 STR question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-28-07, 08:26 PM if you have 0 STR from say a ray of enfeb/ ablity damage can you cast spells?
Britt
07-28-07, 08:30 PM No; you can't move. I suppose if it was a still, silent, eschew materials spell, you could. Anything that would require you to move at all would be impossible.
control freak
07-28-07, 08:32 PM then a small addition to that question, can you activate the clerics strength domain to get your energy to cast bull strength?
Morgen
07-28-07, 08:38 PM I rule this point invalid because Ray of Enfeeblement can't lower your strength to 0 according to the spell description!

Plus it's only a penalty. You'd have to take strength damage all the way to 0 which would make you helpless. The more Strength damage you take, the less effect the enfeebling has.

Rawr! Rules Lawyering FTW!
control freak
07-28-07, 08:42 PM I rule this point invalid because Ray of Enfeeblement can't lower your strength to 0 according to the spell description!

Plus it's only a penalty. You'd have to take strength damage all the way to 0 which would make you helpless. The more Strength damage you take, the less effect the enfeebling has.

Rawr! Rules Lawyering FTW

note the "and str damage" which actualy occured in a Mod the DM ruled that i can use the STR domain to cast 1 spell if i want but then i go back down however i casted bull str so i could keep in the fight and i was just curious what the official ruleing was

as well as theres plenty of ways to reduce casters to 0 str (ray of exauhstion on 6 str grey elves?)
magebeast
07-28-07, 11:22 PM note the "and str damage" which actualy occured in a Mod the DM ruled that i can use the STR domain to cast 1 spell if i want but then i go back down however i casted bull str so i could keep in the fight and i was just curious what the official ruleing was

as well as theres plenty of ways to reduce casters to 0 str (ray of exauhstion on 6 str grey elves?)

It doesn't matter. The damage stacks in the way that's best for you - no matter how much ability damage you take, the ray can't help to drop you past 1.
Britt
07-29-07, 12:43 AM I'm pretty sure, based on a FAQ entry about assassins and poisons, it stacks in the way that is best for the attacker.
JJeff
07-29-07, 01:52 AM Doesn't that mean casting Ray of Enfeeblement on yourself saves you from shadows?
bitznarf
07-29-07, 02:13 AM I take it to mean that the ray of e spell cannot drop your strength below 0. If a shadow does enough damage that your strength drops to 0 by itself, then you do indeed have 0 strength. If the shadow does enough to take you to 1 or higher, ray of e will only take you down to 1. Any other way of applying it and ray of e has caused your strength (in some fashion or another) to drop below 1.
Banor
07-29-07, 08:39 AM You got 10 Str and get hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement for a 4 STR penality. A shadow hit your for 6 STR damage. You are now standing at 1 STR until RoE expires/get dispelled then you would be back to 4 STR (10-6). If the shadow get another hit on you for 3 STR damage, you would still be at 1 STR but even after RoE expires.
Puggle Halfwine
07-29-07, 10:38 AM You got 10 Str and get hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement for a 4 STR penality. A shadow hit your for 6 STR damage. You are now standing at 1 STR until RoE expires/get dispelled then you would be back to 4 STR (10-6). If the shadow get another hit on you for 3 STR damage, you would still be at 1 STR but even after RoE expires.

No. HEED THE WORDS OF BRITT!

I'm pretty sure, based on a FAQ entry about assassins and poisons, it stacks in the way that is best for the attacker.
Britt
07-29-07, 11:17 AM I'm not sure how you would adjudicate it when it's two different attackers, you being one of them. It seems in that case that there are two different attackers, each with a different preference for how to apply the damage. It's not really an issue, though, as the only time that would happen is if you are attacking yourself, and since it doesn't really provide a bonus or protection, you wouldn't be doing it. All the other times, the attacker would be the 'controller' of the effects and would choose to apply them in a way where the ray of enfeeblement does not keep you from going to 0. Of course, there's also the possibility that, if they happen in a clear sequence, you apply them in that sequence; so, if you cast ray of enfeeblement and then get STR drained, ray of enfeeblement doesn't help you, but the other way around it would.

As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.
control freak
07-29-07, 11:36 AM if the ablity damage (save from anything that kills you via the damage) reduces you to 0 str can you use your STR domain power?

oh and as a heads up i heard some one died to shadow but i havent played that one it came up with some other undead :P
Britt
07-29-07, 11:49 AM No, if your natural STR drops to 0, before bonuses, you die (assuming from something that kills at 0). There is a FAQ entry on that, as well. Your STR score is different than bonuses to your STR score. I'll look it up later.
Mattastrophic
07-29-07, 01:40 PM You don't continuously check Ray of Enfeeblement's penalty value; the limitation only is there to tell us the maximum value of the initial penalty.

Thus, if I drop someone to 1 Str with Ray of Enfeeblement, then throw down a Ray of Exhaustion, he'll become helpless.

As to the original question: Once you're helpless, you're done. No activating Str domain or anything like that.

-Matt
Timlagor
07-29-07, 02:59 PM Matt: I'm afraid you're wrong on all counts.

Strength Domain is purely mental and Str 0 does not render you unconscious; merely paralysed.
RoE can never contribute to you going below Str 1 (see FAQ)

I'm pretty sure Britt is right that there was something silly about keeping a seperate track of attribute damage inteh FAQ.
Samwise
07-29-07, 04:54 PM No, if your natural STR drops to 0, before bonuses, you die (assuming from something that kills at 0). There is a FAQ entry on that, as well. Your STR score is different than bonuses to your STR score. I'll look it up later.

Yes there is (page 72 of the current FAQ):
If a character with bull’s strength takes 4 points of
Strength damage from a poison, does the damage apply to
his actual Strength or does it just negate the bonus?

Both effects (the bonus from bull’s strength and the damage from poison) exist separately. Each one adjusts the character’s Strength score accordingly, and if one effect ends the other remains as normal.
Let’s walk through two examples:
A human fighter with Strength 14 drinks a potion of bull’s strength, which increases his Strength to 18. A few rounds before it elapses, he takes 4 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 14. This has no impact on the potion’s effect, and the character still technically has a +4 enhancement bonus to his Strength score (so another bull’s strength spell would have no effect). When the potion’s duration elapses, the +4 bonus disappears, reducing his Strength to 10.
A halfling wizard with Strength 8 takes 10 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 0. (There are no negative ability scores.) If the party’s paladin casts bull’s strength on the halfling, his Strength increases to 4 for the duration of the spell. If, during that spell’s duration, the halfling takes another 5 points of Strength damage, his Strength is once again 0. When the spell wears off, he loses the +4 bonus but is still at Strength 0.
Mattastrophic
07-29-07, 05:42 PM Tim: Consider me corrected, then. Thank you.

-Matt
amnuxoll
08-02-07, 10:20 AM So, my enlightened fist likes to combo empowered ray of enfeeblement with the Weakening Touch feat for massive strength penalties. I've always assumed that that combo can not reduce someone to zero strength. Have I assumed incorrectly?

:AMN:
Timlagor
08-02-07, 02:52 PM So, my enlightened fist likes to combo empowered ray of enfeeblement with the Weakening Touch feat for massive strength penalties. I've always assumed that that combo can not reduce someone to zero strength. Have I assumed incorrectly?

:AMN:

No you were correct.
RoE cann never contribute to someone being below 1Str.
bitznarf
08-02-07, 03:11 PM Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch.
JamesMaissen
08-02-07, 08:47 PM Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch.

You're confusing damage with penalty. Ray of Enfeeblement would still be applying it's penalty and it can't drop below 1 str.. period.

-James
Timlagor
08-03-07, 02:05 AM Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch.

If Weakening touch does it then that's fine.. and the RoE is completely irrelevant. If the RoE would be relevant then it would be contributing to the Str falling below 1 and that doesn't happen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-28-07, 08:26 PM	if you have 0 STR from say a ray of enfeb/ ablity damage can you cast spells?
Britt 07-28-07, 08:30 PM	No; you can't move. I suppose if it was a still, silent, eschew materials spell, you could. Anything that would require you to move at all would be impossible.
control freak 07-28-07, 08:32 PM	then a small addition to that question, can you activate the clerics strength domain to get your energy to cast bull strength?
Morgen 07-28-07, 08:38 PM	I rule this point invalid because Ray of Enfeeblement can't lower your strength to 0 according to the spell description! Plus it's only a penalty. You'd have to take strength damage all the way to 0 which would make you helpless. The more Strength damage you take, the less effect the enfeebling has. Rawr! Rules Lawyering FTW!
control freak 07-28-07, 08:42 PM	I rule this point invalid because Ray of Enfeeblement can't lower your strength to 0 according to the spell description! Plus it's only a penalty. You'd have to take strength damage all the way to 0 which would make you helpless. The more Strength damage you take, the less effect the enfeebling has. Rawr! Rules Lawyering FTW note the "and str damage" which actualy occured in a Mod the DM ruled that i can use the STR domain to cast 1 spell if i want but then i go back down however i casted bull str so i could keep in the fight and i was just curious what the official ruleing was as well as theres plenty of ways to reduce casters to 0 str (ray of exauhstion on 6 str grey elves?)
magebeast 07-28-07, 11:22 PM	note the "and str damage" which actualy occured in a Mod the DM ruled that i can use the STR domain to cast 1 spell if i want but then i go back down however i casted bull str so i could keep in the fight and i was just curious what the official ruleing was as well as theres plenty of ways to reduce casters to 0 str (ray of exauhstion on 6 str grey elves?) It doesn't matter. The damage stacks in the way that's best for you - no matter how much ability damage you take, the ray can't help to drop you past 1.
Britt 07-29-07, 12:43 AM	I'm pretty sure, based on a FAQ entry about assassins and poisons, it stacks in the way that is best for the attacker.
JJeff 07-29-07, 01:52 AM	Doesn't that mean casting Ray of Enfeeblement on yourself saves you from shadows?
bitznarf 07-29-07, 02:13 AM	I take it to mean that the ray of e spell cannot drop your strength below 0. If a shadow does enough damage that your strength drops to 0 by itself, then you do indeed have 0 strength. If the shadow does enough to take you to 1 or higher, ray of e will only take you down to 1. Any other way of applying it and ray of e has caused your strength (in some fashion or another) to drop below 1.
Banor 07-29-07, 08:39 AM	You got 10 Str and get hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement for a 4 STR penality. A shadow hit your for 6 STR damage. You are now standing at 1 STR until RoE expires/get dispelled then you would be back to 4 STR (10-6). If the shadow get another hit on you for 3 STR damage, you would still be at 1 STR but even after RoE expires.
Puggle Halfwine 07-29-07, 10:38 AM	You got 10 Str and get hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement for a 4 STR penality. A shadow hit your for 6 STR damage. You are now standing at 1 STR until RoE expires/get dispelled then you would be back to 4 STR (10-6). If the shadow get another hit on you for 3 STR damage, you would still be at 1 STR but even after RoE expires. No. HEED THE WORDS OF BRITT! I'm pretty sure, based on a FAQ entry about assassins and poisons, it stacks in the way that is best for the attacker.
Britt 07-29-07, 11:17 AM	I'm not sure how you would adjudicate it when it's two different attackers, you being one of them. It seems in that case that there are two different attackers, each with a different preference for how to apply the damage. It's not really an issue, though, as the only time that would happen is if you are attacking yourself, and since it doesn't really provide a bonus or protection, you wouldn't be doing it. All the other times, the attacker would be the 'controller' of the effects and would choose to apply them in a way where the ray of enfeeblement does not keep you from going to 0. Of course, there's also the possibility that, if they happen in a clear sequence, you apply them in that sequence; so, if you cast ray of enfeeblement and then get STR drained, ray of enfeeblement doesn't help you, but the other way around it would. As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.
control freak 07-29-07, 11:36 AM	if the ablity damage (save from anything that kills you via the damage) reduces you to 0 str can you use your STR domain power? oh and as a heads up i heard some one died to shadow but i havent played that one it came up with some other undead :P
Britt 07-29-07, 11:49 AM	No, if your natural STR drops to 0, before bonuses, you die (assuming from something that kills at 0). There is a FAQ entry on that, as well. Your STR score is different than bonuses to your STR score. I'll look it up later.
Mattastrophic 07-29-07, 01:40 PM	You don't continuously check Ray of Enfeeblement's penalty value; the limitation only is there to tell us the maximum value of the initial penalty. Thus, if I drop someone to 1 Str with Ray of Enfeeblement, then throw down a Ray of Exhaustion, he'll become helpless. As to the original question: Once you're helpless, you're done. No activating Str domain or anything like that. -Matt
Timlagor 07-29-07, 02:59 PM	Matt: I'm afraid you're wrong on all counts. Strength Domain is purely mental and Str 0 does not render you unconscious; merely paralysed. RoE can never contribute to you going below Str 1 (see FAQ) I'm pretty sure Britt is right that there was something silly about keeping a seperate track of attribute damage inteh FAQ.
Samwise 07-29-07, 04:54 PM	No, if your natural STR drops to 0, before bonuses, you die (assuming from something that kills at 0). There is a FAQ entry on that, as well. Your STR score is different than bonuses to your STR score. I'll look it up later. Yes there is (page 72 of the current FAQ): If a character with bull’s strength takes 4 points of Strength damage from a poison, does the damage apply to his actual Strength or does it just negate the bonus? Both effects (the bonus from bull’s strength and the damage from poison) exist separately. Each one adjusts the character’s Strength score accordingly, and if one effect ends the other remains as normal. Let’s walk through two examples: A human fighter with Strength 14 drinks a potion of bull’s strength, which increases his Strength to 18. A few rounds before it elapses, he takes 4 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 14. This has no impact on the potion’s effect, and the character still technically has a +4 enhancement bonus to his Strength score (so another bull’s strength spell would have no effect). When the potion’s duration elapses, the +4 bonus disappears, reducing his Strength to 10. A halfling wizard with Strength 8 takes 10 points of Strength damage, reducing his Strength to 0. (There are no negative ability scores.) If the party’s paladin casts bull’s strength on the halfling, his Strength increases to 4 for the duration of the spell. If, during that spell’s duration, the halfling takes another 5 points of Strength damage, his Strength is once again 0. When the spell wears off, he loses the +4 bonus but is still at Strength 0.
Mattastrophic 07-29-07, 05:42 PM	Tim: Consider me corrected, then. Thank you. -Matt
amnuxoll 08-02-07, 10:20 AM	So, my enlightened fist likes to combo empowered ray of enfeeblement with the Weakening Touch feat for massive strength penalties. I've always assumed that that combo can not reduce someone to zero strength. Have I assumed incorrectly? :AMN:
Timlagor 08-02-07, 02:52 PM	So, my enlightened fist likes to combo empowered ray of enfeeblement with the Weakening Touch feat for massive strength penalties. I've always assumed that that combo can not reduce someone to zero strength. Have I assumed incorrectly? :AMN: No you were correct. RoE cann never contribute to someone being below 1Str.
bitznarf 08-02-07, 03:11 PM	Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch.
JamesMaissen 08-02-07, 08:47 PM	Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch. You're confusing damage with penalty. Ray of Enfeeblement would still be applying it's penalty and it can't drop below 1 str.. period. -James
Timlagor 08-03-07, 02:05 AM	Right, but it is not RoE that is doing it in this case, it would be Weakening Touch. If Weakening touch does it then that's fine.. and the RoE is completely irrelevant. If the RoE would be relevant then it would be contributing to the Str falling below 1 and that doesn't happen.