1xAR 2xLevels [Archive] - Wizards Community

1xAR 2xLevels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KShaver
06-11-07, 08:58 AM I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter?
Mommy was an Orc
06-11-07, 09:25 AM I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter?

I'd note two points:
Did the mod instruct you to level during it? I'd think that would be the primary source in this case(though I'm no one in terms of the campaign)

Did you calculate XP correctly? Remember, you get half XP if you're 3 levels below APL.
KShaver
06-11-07, 09:36 AM I'd note two points:
Did the mod instruct you to level during it? I'd think that would be the primary source in this case(though I'm no one in terms of the campaign)

Did you calculate XP correctly? Remember, you get half XP if you're 3 levels below APL.

XP total is correct, the characters were 2 levels below the AR, but even a character 1 level below could have had this happen.

The mod was split into multiple ARs, xp was handled after each AR as appropriate. It just so happened that one AR was somewhat small (comparatively) and put a number of characters just shy of a level and the next AR was extremely large.
pedr
06-11-07, 10:37 AM There is a problem like this with the final part of Red Hand of Doom (no need to confirm whether that's what you're playing).

It has been discussed here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839393

There was no official comment on that thread nor, as far as I could see, on the Q&A thread, unfortunately.

I think what I'd do is this: award the amount of XP necessary to put the PCs one xp short of the level they might or might not be able to gain, with a note showing what the full xp award should be. This means that it would be possible to go back and correct things later should that be proved necessary. Note that in many respects being a few thousand xp short is a benefit in LG - it puts you slightly ahead of the expected gold:xp ratio.

It might also be worth asking again in the Q&A thread!
Timlagor
06-11-07, 10:40 AM Refer to core rules.
There is no core rule against gaining multiple levels simultaneously (95% sure of that -I do know that you don't have to level up if you don't want to in Core Rules; LG says you do).

Therefore they level up twice on the same AR (taking them to 5th I imagine).
Mommy was an Orc
06-11-07, 10:57 AM There is a problem like this with the final part of Red Hand of Doom (no need to confirm whether that's what you're playing).

According to some post by Steven Conforti, you're supposed to award XP/Treasure as you go. I definitely think you're supposed to level twice from that and you probably should have leveled during the mod. I've been trying to find the original post, but can't. In another post, he said this though:
If you've got any questions about Red Hand of Doom and/or the High Level campaign, either in need of an answer or deserving of an officially posted answer, please send them to me at scon40 at aol.com. Sometime soon after DDXP, I plan on generating an FAQ for both topics and also have the special certs mentioned in RHoD posted. So if you feel something needs to get covered, let me know.
pedr
06-11-07, 11:21 AM Refer to core rules.
There is no core rule against gaining multiple levels simultaneously (95% sure of that -I do know that you don't have to level up if you don't want to in Core Rules; LG says you do).

Therefore they level up twice on the same AR (taking them to 5th I imagine).PH 58: "A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character's XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained."

Now as mentioned, there's not a clear definition of 'adventure' in the core rules. Unfortunately there is a very clear definition of 'adventure' for the purposes of LG: each adventure gives you one AR. Regardless of whether you level during a module (as an exception to the usual LG method) or at the end of it, it's difficult to reconcile the combination of the LG definition of adventure and the rule in the PH with the proposition that you can gain two levels on one AR. The easiest solution would be a statement to the effect that where XP can be awarded during an LG module, each time XP is awarded by the GM is an 'adventure' for the purposes of levelling. However that is a decision which the Circle would have to make - at the moment it appears to me that you can't gain two levels on one AR.

Certainly something to send off to Steven via his email address, though.
Howie23
06-11-07, 11:36 AM I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter?

This was discussed previously regarding RHoD, but prior to the May 1 RHoD FAQ. There were arguments at that time that adventure was a loose term and this generated a grey area. The RHoD FAQ removes that grey area.

RHoD FAQ from May 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgad/20070501a

Q. Does each part of Red Hand of Doom count as a single adventure or are all five Parts considered just one single adventure?

A. You should count each part of Red Hand of Doom as a single adventure for the purposes of rules and effects that are determined by numbers of adventures. Furthermore, each adventure record for the individual Parts of Red Hand of Doom should be counted in the same manner.

There is an option to reward XP during the mod for RHoD. There is no requirement to do so. The source for this is the RHoD adaptation document. It is a question of convenience associated with the scaling of the mod, and the fact that XP comes in big chunks. The fact that XP may be awarded in the middle of the mod does not relieve each part from it's definition, above, as a single adventure.

David
The_Jester
06-11-07, 11:47 AM I just hope he wasn't too much over his new level. Losing a few hundred or thousand xp due to an obscure rule would suck.
Mommy was an Orc
06-11-07, 12:31 PM The fact that XP may be awarded in the middle of the mod does not relieve each part from it's definition, above, as a single adventure.

Except the rule for only going up a level in a single adventure is PHB - the mod, presumably, overrules that by saying that you can go up more than a level during it.

I'm not sure, as I haven't read the mod, but if you can't go up more than one level in RHoD when playing it normally, I think parts 4-5 are going to hurt and hurt badly...
Sieylianna
06-11-07, 12:34 PM This previously occurred in Mad God's Key. It was playable only by first levels and gave enough XP to hit third, if you had a couple intros under your built. IIRC, it was a single AR and I don't remember leveling during the module.

Ed
pedr
06-11-07, 12:35 PM Well, I've not read the module either, but I imagine that it doesn't specifically say that you can go up more than one level, otherwise these threads wouldn't be here, or would be very short!

What it does say, AFAIK, is that the GM may award XP during the module. As Howie23 says, that's not the same thing.
King Kashue
06-11-07, 12:40 PM This previously occurred in Mad God's Key. It was playable only by first levels and gave enough XP to hit third, if you had a couple intros under your built. IIRC, it was a single AR and I don't remember leveling during the module.

Ed

XP was actually variable based on number of party members, so you could hit third on your first AR if you played with four people.
ShinAkuma2
06-11-07, 01:17 PM What it does say, AFAIK, is that the GM may award XP during the module. As Howie23 says, that's not the same thing.

And what's the purpose of gaining XP mid-module if it can't level you? Are you saying that you get XP mid-mod for the sole purpose of being able to cast XP-consuming spells?
Britt
06-11-07, 01:23 PM That FAQ entry uses 'Adventure' in LG terms, not in all possible ways. The entry in the PH obviously does not mean that anything called an adventures can not level you more than once, as there are many 'Adventures' that last a long time and are obviously intended to level you more than once. It most likely means 'Adventure Session' or something similar. That does not mean that you CAN level more than once, either. You need to email whomever did the particular adaptation and ask them. It is likely Tim, Pieter, or Steven.
pedr
06-11-07, 03:34 PM And what's the purpose of gaining XP mid-module if it can't level you? Are you saying that you get XP mid-mod for the sole purpose of being able to cast XP-consuming spells?It's clear that in RHoD you can be awarded XP and level during a Part at the GM's discretion.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you can then level again during that same Part. It is possible that if you level once, and are then awarded enough XP so you'd level again, you are instead only awarded enough XP to get you to 1 XP short of the next level.

I'd suggest that for the purposes of the core rules, 'adventure' means 'one period of time at the end of which XP is awarded'. If that meaning isn't overruled by the LG 'adventure' system, then you could level twice, if your GM was following the recommendation to award XP as you go. If your GM was not using that option, and instead awarding it all at the end of each Part, you would not be able to level twice. The only question is: "What does 'adventure' mean?"

I think the best solution would be for the Circle to clarify that where XP is awarded during a module then it is possible to level at any point when XP is awarded, regardless of whether you have levelled since the start of that LG module or not. Until and unless that's said, though, it's unclear and, as Britt says, emailing Steven (whose name is on the cover of the Red Hand of Doom adaptation document) would be the sensible way to get clarification.
jstorrie
06-11-07, 08:11 PM I'm of the opinion that you can only level once per AR of the adaptable. As has been pointed out above, capping out the XP but not the gold is a bonus, not a penalty.
Timlagor
06-12-07, 09:08 AM Jstorie: that depends on whether you need the levels for the next part of the same adventure. It's only a bonus if it let's you play at lower APL tables than you otherwise would. Thus if the only effect is the level you finish the whole of RHoD at then it's no great loss. If the effect is playing half of the series a whole level lower then it's a pretty major and potentially lethal loss.

I definitely levelled twice in the course of Mad God's Key. I don't remember whether there was specific documentation allowing that but I'm pretty sure it was a common occurence (certainly there were many 4PC tables run).

Sorry about my misleading comment earlier.

With the number of ADPs coming out I think it would be useful to have a general ruling on this issue. Failing that please could you pass it on for consideration in every ADP document? (not sure who's in charge of ADPs in general)
Howie23
07-05-07, 12:10 PM That FAQ entry uses 'Adventure' in LG terms, not in all possible ways. The entry in the PH obviously does not mean that anything called an adventures can not level you more than once, as there are many 'Adventures' that last a long time and are obviously intended to level you more than once. It most likely means 'Adventure Session' or something similar. That does not mean that you CAN level more than once, either. You need to email whomever did the particular adaptation and ask them. It is likely Tim, Pieter, or Steven.

I asked Steven about this regardging RHoD. He snipped down my query to: "May a PC level twice on a single AR?"

To which he answered: "Yes."

David
pedr
07-05-07, 12:33 PM Can you reproduce the email or refer us to where this was stated?

It is a very sensible ruling, but I imagine some people will need to see it confirmed!

It would make a very good thing to add to next month's Dispel Confusion.
Howie23
07-05-07, 12:50 PM Can you reproduce the email or refer us to where this was stated?

I just reproduced the entire content of his reply, including the portion of my query that included. Query and response by email.

If you mean the headers and such, I don't think there is any point.

If you want a more formal ruling, ask it via the Q/A thread for inclusion in the next DC.

David

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KShaver 06-11-07, 08:58 AM	I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter?
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 09:25 AM	I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter? I'd note two points: Did the mod instruct you to level during it? I'd think that would be the primary source in this case(though I'm no one in terms of the campaign) Did you calculate XP correctly? Remember, you get half XP if you're 3 levels below APL.
KShaver 06-11-07, 09:36 AM	I'd note two points: Did the mod instruct you to level during it? I'd think that would be the primary source in this case(though I'm no one in terms of the campaign) Did you calculate XP correctly? Remember, you get half XP if you're 3 levels below APL. XP total is correct, the characters were 2 levels below the AR, but even a character 1 level below could have had this happen. The mod was split into multiple ARs, xp was handled after each AR as appropriate. It just so happened that one AR was somewhat small (comparatively) and put a number of characters just shy of a level and the next AR was extremely large.
pedr 06-11-07, 10:37 AM	There is a problem like this with the final part of Red Hand of Doom (no need to confirm whether that's what you're playing). It has been discussed here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839393 There was no official comment on that thread nor, as far as I could see, on the Q&A thread, unfortunately. I think what I'd do is this: award the amount of XP necessary to put the PCs one xp short of the level they might or might not be able to gain, with a note showing what the full xp award should be. This means that it would be possible to go back and correct things later should that be proved necessary. Note that in many respects being a few thousand xp short is a benefit in LG - it puts you slightly ahead of the expected gold:xp ratio. It might also be worth asking again in the Q&A thread!
Timlagor 06-11-07, 10:40 AM	Refer to core rules. There is no core rule against gaining multiple levels simultaneously (95% sure of that -I do know that you don't have to level up if you don't want to in Core Rules; LG says you do). Therefore they level up twice on the same AR (taking them to 5th I imagine).
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 10:57 AM	There is a problem like this with the final part of Red Hand of Doom (no need to confirm whether that's what you're playing). According to some post by Steven Conforti, you're supposed to award XP/Treasure as you go. I definitely think you're supposed to level twice from that and you probably should have leveled during the mod. I've been trying to find the original post, but can't. In another post, he said this though: If you've got any questions about Red Hand of Doom and/or the High Level campaign, either in need of an answer or deserving of an officially posted answer, please send them to me at scon40 at aol.com. Sometime soon after DDXP, I plan on generating an FAQ for both topics and also have the special certs mentioned in RHoD posted. So if you feel something needs to get covered, let me know.
pedr 06-11-07, 11:21 AM	Refer to core rules. There is no core rule against gaining multiple levels simultaneously (95% sure of that -I do know that you don't have to level up if you don't want to in Core Rules; LG says you do). Therefore they level up twice on the same AR (taking them to 5th I imagine).PH 58: "A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character's XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained." Now as mentioned, there's not a clear definition of 'adventure' in the core rules. Unfortunately there is a very clear definition of 'adventure' for the purposes of LG: each adventure gives you one AR. Regardless of whether you level during a module (as an exception to the usual LG method) or at the end of it, it's difficult to reconcile the combination of the LG definition of adventure and the rule in the PH with the proposition that you can gain two levels on one AR. The easiest solution would be a statement to the effect that where XP can be awarded during an LG module, each time XP is awarded by the GM is an 'adventure' for the purposes of levelling. However that is a decision which the Circle would have to make - at the moment it appears to me that you can't gain two levels on one AR. Certainly something to send off to Steven via his email address, though.
Howie23 06-11-07, 11:36 AM	I never really thought I'd see this happen (Unless a level 1 or 2 character squeezed into a multi-round high level mod), but in a recent adaptable we had 3 or 4 players gain enough xp to raise more than one level (on 1 AR). I can't find anything in the LGCS on how to handle this, so my guess is go by the PHB rules on the matter? This was discussed previously regarding RHoD, but prior to the May 1 RHoD FAQ. There were arguments at that time that adventure was a loose term and this generated a grey area. The RHoD FAQ removes that grey area. RHoD FAQ from May 1: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgad/20070501a Q. Does each part of Red Hand of Doom count as a single adventure or are all five Parts considered just one single adventure? A. You should count each part of Red Hand of Doom as a single adventure for the purposes of rules and effects that are determined by numbers of adventures. Furthermore, each adventure record for the individual Parts of Red Hand of Doom should be counted in the same manner. There is an option to reward XP during the mod for RHoD. There is no requirement to do so. The source for this is the RHoD adaptation document. It is a question of convenience associated with the scaling of the mod, and the fact that XP comes in big chunks. The fact that XP may be awarded in the middle of the mod does not relieve each part from it's definition, above, as a single adventure. David
The_Jester 06-11-07, 11:47 AM	I just hope he wasn't too much over his new level. Losing a few hundred or thousand xp due to an obscure rule would suck.
Mommy was an Orc 06-11-07, 12:31 PM	The fact that XP may be awarded in the middle of the mod does not relieve each part from it's definition, above, as a single adventure. Except the rule for only going up a level in a single adventure is PHB - the mod, presumably, overrules that by saying that you can go up more than a level during it. I'm not sure, as I haven't read the mod, but if you can't go up more than one level in RHoD when playing it normally, I think parts 4-5 are going to hurt and hurt badly...
Sieylianna 06-11-07, 12:34 PM	This previously occurred in Mad God's Key. It was playable only by first levels and gave enough XP to hit third, if you had a couple intros under your built. IIRC, it was a single AR and I don't remember leveling during the module. Ed
pedr 06-11-07, 12:35 PM	Well, I've not read the module either, but I imagine that it doesn't specifically say that you can go up more than one level, otherwise these threads wouldn't be here, or would be very short! What it does say, AFAIK, is that the GM may award XP during the module. As Howie23 says, that's not the same thing.
King Kashue 06-11-07, 12:40 PM	This previously occurred in Mad God's Key. It was playable only by first levels and gave enough XP to hit third, if you had a couple intros under your built. IIRC, it was a single AR and I don't remember leveling during the module. Ed XP was actually variable based on number of party members, so you could hit third on your first AR if you played with four people.
ShinAkuma2 06-11-07, 01:17 PM	What it does say, AFAIK, is that the GM may award XP during the module. As Howie23 says, that's not the same thing. And what's the purpose of gaining XP mid-module if it can't level you? Are you saying that you get XP mid-mod for the sole purpose of being able to cast XP-consuming spells?
Britt 06-11-07, 01:23 PM	That FAQ entry uses 'Adventure' in LG terms, not in all possible ways. The entry in the PH obviously does not mean that anything called an adventures can not level you more than once, as there are many 'Adventures' that last a long time and are obviously intended to level you more than once. It most likely means 'Adventure Session' or something similar. That does not mean that you CAN level more than once, either. You need to email whomever did the particular adaptation and ask them. It is likely Tim, Pieter, or Steven.
pedr 06-11-07, 03:34 PM	And what's the purpose of gaining XP mid-module if it can't level you? Are you saying that you get XP mid-mod for the sole purpose of being able to cast XP-consuming spells?It's clear that in RHoD you can be awarded XP and level during a Part at the GM's discretion. This doesn't necessarily mean that you can then level again during that same Part. It is possible that if you level once, and are then awarded enough XP so you'd level again, you are instead only awarded enough XP to get you to 1 XP short of the next level. I'd suggest that for the purposes of the core rules, 'adventure' means 'one period of time at the end of which XP is awarded'. If that meaning isn't overruled by the LG 'adventure' system, then you could level twice, if your GM was following the recommendation to award XP as you go. If your GM was not using that option, and instead awarding it all at the end of each Part, you would not be able to level twice. The only question is: "What does 'adventure' mean?" I think the best solution would be for the Circle to clarify that where XP is awarded during a module then it is possible to level at any point when XP is awarded, regardless of whether you have levelled since the start of that LG module or not. Until and unless that's said, though, it's unclear and, as Britt says, emailing Steven (whose name is on the cover of the Red Hand of Doom adaptation document) would be the sensible way to get clarification.
jstorrie 06-11-07, 08:11 PM	I'm of the opinion that you can only level once per AR of the adaptable. As has been pointed out above, capping out the XP but not the gold is a bonus, not a penalty.
Timlagor 06-12-07, 09:08 AM	Jstorie: that depends on whether you need the levels for the next part of the same adventure. It's only a bonus if it let's you play at lower APL tables than you otherwise would. Thus if the only effect is the level you finish the whole of RHoD at then it's no great loss. If the effect is playing half of the series a whole level lower then it's a pretty major and potentially lethal loss. I definitely levelled twice in the course of Mad God's Key. I don't remember whether there was specific documentation allowing that but I'm pretty sure it was a common occurence (certainly there were many 4PC tables run). Sorry about my misleading comment earlier. With the number of ADPs coming out I think it would be useful to have a general ruling on this issue. Failing that please could you pass it on for consideration in every ADP document? (not sure who's in charge of ADPs in general)
Howie23 07-05-07, 12:10 PM	That FAQ entry uses 'Adventure' in LG terms, not in all possible ways. The entry in the PH obviously does not mean that anything called an adventures can not level you more than once, as there are many 'Adventures' that last a long time and are obviously intended to level you more than once. It most likely means 'Adventure Session' or something similar. That does not mean that you CAN level more than once, either. You need to email whomever did the particular adaptation and ask them. It is likely Tim, Pieter, or Steven. I asked Steven about this regardging RHoD. He snipped down my query to: "May a PC level twice on a single AR?" To which he answered: "Yes." David
pedr 07-05-07, 12:33 PM	Can you reproduce the email or refer us to where this was stated? It is a very sensible ruling, but I imagine some people will need to see it confirmed! It would make a very good thing to add to next month's Dispel Confusion.
Howie23 07-05-07, 12:50 PM	Can you reproduce the email or refer us to where this was stated? I just reproduced the entire content of his reply, including the portion of my query that included. Query and response by email. If you mean the headers and such, I don't think there is any point. If you want a more formal ruling, ask it via the Q/A thread for inclusion in the next DC. David