Post/Author/DateTime	Post
makem 02-01-06, 10:34 PM	Is it possible to remove the restriction to sources outside the PHB till 3rd lvl? It was ok before there were half a dozen classes, cleric domains and feats that are allowed. Originally it seemed to keep things simpler, now it seems like an outdated holdover from the builder book days. Thanks
JamesMaissen 02-01-06, 11:49 PM	I'd like to second the idea that the 3rd level rule simply be removed from the LGCS. It serves no purpose and does harm where it's meant to do good. Rather than be a simplification for new players it's yet another rule for them to learn that is LG-specific (so it will be a new wierd rule for all of them). A newbie can make a new character from just the PhB with or without this rule. The character will be just as valid if made without knowing what other choices were available. If trying to 'optimize' he/she will still have to be able to examine all the possible future feats during his/her creation so as to decide on stats, starting feats, skills, race, et al. While it was born of good intentions I don't think it really serves a purpose. Worse than that, it distorts the game and adds confusion to newbies (and experienced players as well). Thank you for your time, and best of luck with this medium of handling the draft, James Maissen
haferka 02-02-06, 12:10 AM	I'd like to second the idea that the 3rd level rule simply be removed from the LGCS. James Maissen I agree. Drop the rule, shorten the LGCS.
SteveMND 02-02-06, 12:17 AM	I have to agree here as well. The 3rd-level rule was originally created in order to make it simpler for a new player to get involved in the campaign, and that was fine. However, over the last year or so, there have been so many esoteric exceptions to the rule, that it has actually made the process more complicated and created a larger barrier to new players than before. It's easily the most confusing and daunting part of character creation.
garyjohnson 02-02-06, 05:09 AM	I agree as well - does anyone know if there have been reasons given for keeping the rule? Cheers, Gary Johnson
viceregal 02-02-06, 07:08 AM	I started a thread on one of the groups (probable the main LG one) asking for positive feedback / good reasons for keeping this rule etc .... I did not get a single solitary supporting comment in favour of the third level rule! If the main reason is for the sake of new player simplicity ... then it is not working - if there is some deeper arcane reasoning behind it ... then I have not seen it expained anywhere! Add one more vote to cancelling out the rule. (we have already taken one more step in that direction in this doc by letting the warmages have their full lists)
paigeoliver 02-02-06, 07:37 AM	I agree, it really doesn't make much any sense to me either. If anything it is one of those rules that discourages both play and the purchase of wizards products. If I here about a new feat in a book that seems cool, I might want to make up a new character just to use that feat. If I can't take the feat until 3rd level then I won't be nearly as likely to make the character, and if I don't make the character then I won't buy the book. Sometimes It can be even worse, because the feat will have another non-phb feat as a prerequisite. And plus, you can create new Marmages, Marshalls, Scouts, Swashbucklers, hexblades, favored souls and other character classes that aren't in the PHB, so why would feats and such be any different?
vvincent 02-02-06, 08:37 AM	I have to disagree with this. I can't see where the 3rd level rule has hurt the sale of WotC books in any way. Frankly, with the sheer multitude of choices and options available - the 3rd level rule is about simplicity. A new player to the game is going to be overwhelmed by all the choices. Over a thousand new spells alone (minus a few) in the Spell Compendium. This is about managing things for the new person, not about making it possible for everyone to make a new character each time a book comes out. Vernon L. Vincent I agree, it really doesn't make much any sense to me either. If anything it is one of those rules that discourages both play and the purchase of wizards products. If I here about a new feat in a book that seems cool, I might want to make up a new character just to use that feat. If I can't take the feat until 3rd level then I won't be nearly as likely to make the character, and if I don't make the character then I won't buy the book. Sometimes It can be even worse, because the feat will have another non-phb feat as a prerequisite. And plus, you can create new Marmages, Marshalls, Scouts, Swashbucklers, hexblades, favored souls and other character classes that aren't in the PHB, so why would feats and such be any different?
paigeoliver 02-02-06, 08:48 AM	But Vernon, a new player to D&D isn't going to have all those books to begin with, and will likely be overwhelmed by the player's handbook. :P Although I don't agree with the reasoning behind the rule, I do think it was less confusing when there weren't so many exceptions to the rules. As it stands now I find all the bits about the regional feats and stuff to be a lot more confusing than simply knowing I could use anything in the PHB and anything listed as core. See you at Winter War.
chitzk0i 02-02-06, 09:11 AM	I think that, at the very least, they should talk about the exceptions in the LGCS. Warmage et. al. are listed as being "Core," so you can take them at first level, but "Core" feats can't be taken until 3rd level.
Mommy was an Orc 02-02-06, 09:15 AM	I actually like the rule. It levels out the inexperience of beginning players over time. They might be confused at 1st level, but by 3rd level, they likely have an idea of where they want to go. So they haven't gotten burned by not realizing that say Sculpt Spell is an option.
GreySector 02-02-06, 09:20 AM	I would like to echo the sentiments in James Maissen's excellent post. -Michael Eshleman
Mortepierre 02-02-06, 09:22 AM	Over a thousand new spells alone (minus a few) in the Spell Compendium. .. except those thousand new spells aren't "core" access but "limited" for a good part (remember, almost nothing has been added to "core" in the new version), thus out of the equation. I am also in favor of dropping that rule. It makes it harder to explain to newcomers how the system works. "Yes, nothing beyond the PHB before you hit 3rd level. Ooops! Wait, you can choose classes X, Y, and Z from such and such accessory. Oh, and did I mention the racial/regional feats from Dragon Magazine?" :rolleyes:
Iswald 02-02-06, 10:32 AM	The level 3 restriction should be removed to reduce the complexity of creating new characters. For players who are completely new to D&D, it doesn't make a difference either way if they only possess the core books. For experienced players, whether or not they've been playing LG, the restriction simply hinders the creation of characters as players are forced to make awkward changes to their character to fit an unnecesarry rule. Favored souls, sorcerors and bards who are limited in their spell selection would benefit from not having to take spells they don't care for and spend their ability to exchange spells to change to the spell they wanted from the start.
Sieylianna 02-02-06, 12:14 PM	I like the 3rd level restriction for feats. That prevents the munchkin human fighter from having three non-core feats at 2nd level. Spells aren't as big of deal and I wouldn't have a problem with allowing them at character creation. Ed
amnuxoll 02-02-06, 12:31 PM	Cast my vote for keeping the third level rule. I have helped several new players create their first PCs and I have seen the benefits of this in action. Often new players have only seen the player's handbook (if they've seen any content at all). By thorwing other books at them, you change the game. When suddenly it's not the game they thought they had come to play, they think about going elsewhere. If we want the LG campaign to grow then I think the third level rule must stay. By the time new players reach 3rd level, THEN they are ready to attack the new crunch. :AMN:
Huck Pennan 02-02-06, 01:05 PM	Cast my vote for keeping the third level rule. I have helped several new players create their first PCs and I have seen the benefits of this in action. Often new players have only seen the player's handbook (if they've seen any content at all). By thorwing other books at them, you change the game. When suddenly it's not the game they thought they had come to play, they think about going elsewhere. If we want the LG campaign to grow then I think the third level rule must stay. By the time new players reach 3rd level, THEN they are ready to attack the new crunch. :AMN: Unfourtunatly I have to completely disagree here. Just because new players have the option of using more material doesn't mean they have to! If your helping a "brand new to D&D" person make a character, then you should help them make a character using only what they own (likely just the PHB), using anything else not only confuses them needlessly, but is also not campaign legal (as they have to own the book to use it). This doesn't cause an unbalance unless we're going to take the opinion that all PHB material is inherantly weaker than other material. Myself I've had a very different experience, I've more often been introducing people to LG who were already familiar with D&D, and they found the restriction frustrating to work with (and it could have turned them off the campaign in general) I think the rule is unnecessary, and confusing to players new to LG. Players new to D&D will likely only use the PHB anyway so the rule is unimportant to them. Thank you, Michael D Tufts
theliel 02-02-06, 02:04 PM	Unfourtunatly I have to completely disagree here. Just because new players have the option of using more material doesn't mean they have to! If your helping a "brand new to D&D" person make a character, then you should help them make a character using only what they own (likely just the PHB), using anything else not only confuses them needlessly, but is also not campaign legal (as they have to own the book to use it). This doesn't cause an unbalance unless we're going to take the opinion that all PHB material is inherantly weaker than other material. Myself I've had a very different experience, I've more often been introducing people to LG who were already familiar with D&D, and they found the restriction frustrating to work with (and it could have turned them off the campaign in general) I think the rule is unnecessary, and confusing to players new to LG. Players new to D&D will likely only use the PHB anyway so the rule is unimportant to them. Thank you, Michael D Tufts The problem is inhernent to the 3.x rules set. If you are non-optimized you are going to be marginilized by someone who is, no matter what. 3.x is unfriendly to new players in general, ditch the rule and let people just warn them that "your first character may suck. but then, you're first essay did and your first painting did too"
Greyson 02-02-06, 02:23 PM	Count me among those that favor ditching the 3rd-level rule for non-core access. The rule seems unnecessarily restrictive at a critical stage of character design - the beginning! I cannot conceive of any compelling game reason to keep and enforce the rule, especially in these heady days of multiple sourcebooks. A new player can build his or her character at their own pace. The sooner they can delve into more options the, better, if they want. At least accord them (and veteran players) the oppurtunity to create their character to the extent they are comfortable with from the beginning.
zoinks69 02-02-06, 02:29 PM	I'm also in favor of removing the rule (there are already so many exceptions that tend to err on the side of "powergaming"). You might argue that an "optimized" level 2 fighter is going to create a slippery slope (i.e. the writers will have to make low-level adventures much more difficult). I'm 'proud' to say I've now seen 2 (there could be more) arguably absurd apl "2" modules that were plenty challenging (that is to say one or two rolls away from TPK), so the modules are already out there. Removing the restriction doesn't change anything regarding bringing in new members. A new player can roll up a phb-only PC and play him a few modules to get a feel for the campaign. If they decide to stick around, they can just as easily roll up a second character using the expanded options and play whichever they prefer.
JamesMaissen 02-02-06, 02:36 PM	I have to disagree with this. I can't see where the 3rd level rule has hurt the sale of WotC books in any way. Frankly, with the sheer multitude of choices and options available - the 3rd level rule is about simplicity. It delivers complexity however in its stead. It does so by adding a new rule to all those that newbies must learn. The rule is only in LG and much like all the paperwork, everyone has to learn it and hence adds to the multitude of rules that a new player must learn. Furthermore it doesn't make sense to the new player in many situations and never to the D&D gamer that's new to LG. A new player to the game is going to be overwhelmed by all the choices. Over a thousand new spells alone (minus a few) in the Spell Compendium. This is about managing things for the new person, not about making it possible for everyone to make a new character each time a book comes out. Vernon L. Vincent How does this solve anything? 1> The new player makes a character using the PhB. Great. Result of 1> Has the 3rd level rule helped him? No, he could have done so without it. If he/she felt the need to consider other sources they still need to do so from the ground up and make decisions on feat and class based on it even if the first time they can take from those sources is much later on (ie taking combat reflexes for hold the line, endurance for master of many forms, etc). 2> A player new to LG but knows D&D tries to make a new character. Not only does he have to get used to LG specifics elsewhere, but has to pick feats from the PhB. Meanwhile he's already asked what other books are out there and needs to skew his normal creation for this. When he invariably asks why he can't just take the feat at 1st level.. there's no good answer. This is compounded in frustration if he's taking a class outside the PhB, is required to bring that book to play, but can't take a feat from that other book until 3rd level. Result of 2> Has the 3rd level rule helped him? No, he would be better off without it and it starts his LG experience off feeling that its filled with arbitrary rules and restrictions that don't make sense to him (or me for that matter). 3> A veteran LG player makes a new character. He winds up taking quicken spell at 1st level because this silly rule has skewed his choices. Result of 3> Has the 3rd level rule helped him? No. He felt he had to sacrifice to make the build he wants by taking feats in a wierd order. Now how is the presence of other books in the campaign a hinderance to the player in case 1? Answer: They don't need to consider it. Even IF they feel they would need to consider it to be 'optimized' then they're going to have to consider it from 1st level anyway. Some feats in other books are better suited to what you want, and some PrCs require feats that you have to start building towards intially with some builds. Let those new to the campaign go at thier own pace. This 3rd level rule is not helping them do so, it's harming everyone else. -James
SteveMND 02-02-06, 02:44 PM	"This is about managing things for the new person," With all due respect, I think the only person that should be 'managing the new person' is, well, the new person himself. Attempting to 'manage' someone can all too easily be seen as "you're not smart enough to be able to handle all these options, so we're going to dumb it down for you." If the player is comfortable with all the other options outside the Core books, fine, let him do as he wants. Don't insult his intelligence by implying that he won't be able to handle the material. And beyond that, the idea of managing it for the 'new person' doesn't hold up in most circumstances, as I suspect the vast majority of 1st-level chharacters created out there are by players who already have a character to begin with and want a secondary or tertiary character (I can't name a single player in my region I've met that only has one PC, period, and most have three or four). I would suggest, however, a short paragraph at the beginning of the character creation section that recommends that players who are new to the games rules and how they are applied in LG may wish to restrict themselves to just the PHB for simplicity's sake until they are more familiar with the game. This is sound advice for any game and any campaign, much less just LG.
balakus01 02-02-06, 03:10 PM	It really doesn't matter with new characters to a group. Most have already played D & D or know enough to trust the rest of the players available to not lead them in the wrong direction. It's those Favored Souls, Sorcerers, and Bards that can't use those spells they may have at 1st level until 3rd that are missing out. And as for broken feat trees at 1st and 2nd, well it's already in the core books so the others don't matter as much either.
Taren Seeker 02-03-06, 08:55 PM	Agreed with most posters here. A particularily telling point is the one regarding taking Quicken at 1st level. The campaign is artificially skewing character progression with a rule that doesn't really accomplish it's intention. I even have a guy getting back into D&D after a long absence, and to be frank he's such a burnout that he might as well be a complete neophyte. However he hears us talk about different feats, reads new spells and he wants them, only to find that he has to delay everything until 3rd. Give new RPGA, and even new D&D players a little more credit. Oh and us experienced RPGA players would appreciate a break too :D . Simplify rules rather than increase exceptions to fix problem cases that shouldn't exist in the first place. There are a number of "1st level only" feats that would open up with this rule going away as well. Nick S.
Marshall 02-05-06, 12:56 PM	I have to disagree with this. I can't see where the 3rd level rule has hurt the sale of WotC books in any way. Frankly, with the sheer multitude of choices and options available - the 3rd level rule is about simplicity. Except, you know, where the laundry list of exceptions come in. So you cant have this, unless your playing this, but only when you also do this, and you have to have this AR and..... You call that simplicity? A new player to the game is going to be overwhelmed by all the choices. Over a thousand new spells alone (minus a few) in the Spell Compendium. This is about managing things for the new person, not about making it possible for everyone to make a new character each time a book comes out. Vernon L. Vincent The real number of new spells from the SC is ZERO. Anything that wasnt already in the completes is LIMITED and therefore not available.
Munkwunk 02-05-06, 03:13 PM	I agree that it has been a rather confusing rule, what with all of the many suggestions. In one day, myw ife and I taught two different people about LG. One was a total D&D newbie, the other was an experienced D&D player who simply hadn't played LG before. The training experience was very different for both of them. The newbie was content with using the information in the PHB (no confusing presentation of all the new rules in every book ato nce -- it wasn't necessary). The experienced player was confused by the 3rd-level rule, especially since we said "Yes, you can play a Swashbuckler. No, you can't have that feat." My personal suggestion would be to drop the 3rd-level rule for anything listed as "Core". Limited items are difficult to get access to before then anyway, but you can still limit those to 3rd-plus level. So basically, anything listed as Limited would have the 3rd-level restriction while the rest of the Core rules are available to everyone (who WANTS to use them) from the start.
DuctShuiTengu 02-05-06, 05:08 PM	I have to agree. When the rule was just "Nothing from outside the PHB until 3rd level" it made at least some sense. Perhaps a bit restrictive for experienced players, but it did simplify things somewhat for the new players. When it became "Nothing from outside the PHB until 3rd level, except for this list of feats from Dragon Magazine 315 and 319 that can be taken at first level if you're the right race/class/region" it started to seem arbitrary for new and experienced players alike. This problem only got worse as we added in more exceptions. Really, the rule we have now, that supposedly simplifies things for new players is now: You may not use anything from outside the PHB until 3rd level Unless it's one of the feats from Dragon Magazine for your Race or Region Unless it's one of the new base classes that are core access Unless it's a domain for your cleric Unless you're a warmage Unless your a Bright Sands character When you add not only a new rule, but 5 exceptions to that rule in the name of simplifying things so that they're easier to understand.... Well, maybe it's just me, but that seems slightly counterproductive. As others have said, allowing options from outside the PHB doesn't make putting together a character with just the PHB any less viable for new players that don't have any of the other books. And while some would argue that being allowed to take stuff (be it spells, classes, feats, whatever) from outside the PHB could give experienced players over those who only have the PHB, I would argue that simply forcing the experienced players with more books to wait until 3rd level to take those things doesn't fix the problem, merely delaying it. If Spell X from Book Y upsets the balance of power that badly, then it shouldn't be allowed in the campaign at all. Given that this has been done (admittedly, not always with the greatest degree of success) with putting spells, feats, and classes on the NPC Only or Restricted lists, what should be left are options that are roughly equal in usefulness to those within the PHB.
Timlagor 02-06-06, 08:51 AM	1) It's a pain for anyone who's familiar with D&D 2) It's absurdly full of holes and getting worse rapidly. 3) It doesn't actually help the 'newbie'. The key to designing an effective D&D character is planning. Being restricted to the PHB does not in any way remove the need to consider all the other material that will hit you at 3rd level. every decision, from Race and Attributes to skill points, can be affected or even dictated by the Feats and PrCs you want to take later in your career. Allowing rebuilds at 1st level (or even 2nd) would be much more helpful to new players without the messy complication and annoying limitations of the current rule. Merely abandoning the rule would still be better for the vast majority of players (including the new ones).
bertman4 02-06-06, 12:31 PM	The problem is inhernent to the 3.x rules set. If you are non-optimized you are going to be marginilized by someone who is, no matter what. 3.x is unfriendly to new players in general, ditch the rule and let people just warn them that "your first character may suck. but then, you're first essay did and your first painting did too" Then the thing to do, as said in another thread, is to allow for 1st level only retooling of characters. Anyway, I'm all for throwing out the 3rd level restriction. Bertman