Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 06-05-07, 05:39 AM	I saw a post at Neocramancer Games Forums (http://p208.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm9.showMessage?topicI D=553.topic) that basically said they gaming industry expects WotC to announce 4e at GenCon this year. If that's true, then I believe the clock is ticking on LG 3.5 and possibly, though unlikely, LG. My main concern is that LG and the RPGA will not be allowed to continue LG using 3.5 for even one minute past the start of GenCon 2008. Remember "All LG PCs must comply with the most current version of the PH" from the LGCS. Sure, they'll have a big party, some cool new mods, and even a character conversion packet. What they wont have is a book buy back. Yes, a new version must come even if the current version is fine (not perfect). Companies must sell material to stay in business, etc. etc. etc. I don't have to like it. It looks like my LG days may be numbered just when LG was opening up lots of cool options too. I sure hope they don't announce 4e at GenCon! -Swiftbrook
pedr 06-05-07, 06:22 AM	I think this GenCon is too early for an announcement of 4e. IIRC R&D were asked about 4e at D&D eXPerience and they laughed and essentially said that no-one was currently working on a 4th edition. Everyone knows that there will be one at some point but I don't buy the theories that say it's coming soon. Apart from anything else, I think the announcement would be made at a D&D eXPerience not at GenCon: Wizards are doing all they can to brand D&D XP as 'their' show, as the D&D show and it would do untold damage to that to make the biggest announcement for years at GenCon. Having said that, when 4e does come then I think you're right: the RPGA will very quickly stop supporting 3.5. I think that will probably be the end of LG, personally, unless the differences between 3.5 and 4e are relatively minor. I didn't play LC, but I've heard that the 2e to 3e conversion was horrible. If something as radical as that happens, I think it'd be a mistake to try to convert LG. On the other hand, the end of LG would free up countless hours of volunteer time, so I'd not agree that it would necessarily mean the end of the 'Living' system of organised play - the easiest thing would be to launch a new LG, or a Living Eberron (5 Meta-regions map well onto Five Kingdoms, after all!) or a Living <insert new campaign world here>. I suppose if it was Living Realms I'd play, but I'd grumble: never managed to become a fan of FR.
Haro 06-05-07, 08:48 AM	It has already been categorically stated by Wizards that there will not be a new edition of D&D before 2009. Is there a chance we could hold off on the speculation for at least another year? I know we haven't seen one of these threads for a few weeks but I believe it is almost scaremongering to keep discussing the issue (not you Swiftbrook, just in a general sense). I love 3.5 and would like to get the most out of it while I can, not worry about how much time it has left! :) Joe
chesspiece 06-05-07, 09:04 AM	IIRC, RPGA is supposed to be announcing a new Living Campaign this year. I believe GenCon was the planned date. I don't know how successful that would be if they announce the termination of the current iteration of the rules. I've been expecting something like this for a while... some non-WotC gaming expert announcing a definitive 'end of 3.5'. WotC is still pumping out supplements (Complete books) so they don't look like they're ready to abandon 3.5 just yet. Going by memory & hearsay, I believe that a large part of the LC 2e=>3e problems involved how they handled Cert conversion. Thankfully, this is one issue LG can ignore. I hope that when the change does happen, our campaign will survive the transition.
pedr 06-05-07, 09:20 AM	Considering that the RPGA (not the WotC booth) is running "Star Wars: Prelude to Defiance" at GenCon I am reasonably sure that the new campaign will be for Star Wars: Saga Edition, not D&D. I guess I could be wrong, but as the only two logical campaigns would be an FR-based one or a Star Wars-based one, and the FR has the Undermountain mini-campaign, I'm feeling pretty confident! So while I stand by my view that 3.5 has a while to go yet, I don't think that the upcoming campaign is evidence either way.
MatteBlack 06-05-07, 10:10 AM	At worst, they announce 4e will be introduced at the next GenCon. There seems to be no real signs that they are building up to introduce a new finished edition and why would you drop your game's magazine right before an event such as a new edition release? I know there is a pressure to release a new edition for sales reasons but, the game actually functions pretty well compared to previous editions. If anything, they just need to Release a 3.6 set of Core books that work with the majority of the rest of the material to tighten up rules and include errata and clarifications. A new DMG, PHB and conversion/errata book for the existing materials that presented the rules more clearly and accurately could really improve the game.
The_Jester 06-05-07, 10:55 AM	I saw a post at Neocramancer Games Forums (http://p208.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm9.showMessage?topicI D=553.topic) that basically said they gaming industry expects WotC to announce 4e at GenCon this year. Funny, I've seen similar posts every month for the last three years...
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 11:07 AM	I wouldn't worry about 4.0 until we see a Prestige Class Compendium - that's the kind of money grabbing move you see when people aren't likely to buy the books they came from. I also don't think it will be all that different from 3.5 in terms of mechanics, just how the general structure of classes work. i.e. they're moving to more of a resources per encounter model rather than a resource per day model.
Samwise 06-05-07, 11:19 AM	I don't expect 4E to impact LG at all. Sure, some people will "refuse" to buy another book for a new edition "ever" and quit. They will, as has happened every time in the past, be replaced by new players, and the gaming community will continue. Conversion won't be an issue. 4E is likely to be closer to 3.5 than 3.5 was 3E, and that was barely a speedbump. As for other compendiums, I'm starting to wonder if WotC will announce that the Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, Rules Compendium, and several other compendiums (prestige classes, feats, races, and what not) were "4E," and the system was "changed." As for statements and denials and what not, the release schedule for 2nd ed continued right up to the release of 3E, including a multi-volume spell compendium. In the end, they'll release it when they release it, and it won't affect a thing.
MatteBlack 06-05-07, 01:20 PM	I wouldn't worry about 4.0 until we see a Prestige Class Compendium - that's the kind of money grabbing move you see when people aren't likely to buy the books they came from. I also don't think it will be all that different from 3.5 in terms of mechanics, just how the general structure of classes work. i.e. they're moving to more of a resources per encounter model rather than a resource per day model. While I agree it should be done, I was just wondering why you felt they will move in that direction? Some friends and I targetted resources per encounter as a area for improvement for 4th Ed. in a conversation just last night. Have there been semi-official comments or trends in recent materials?
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 03:52 PM	While I agree it should be done, I was just wondering why you felt they will move in that direction? Some friends and I targetted resources per encounter as a area for improvement for 4th Ed. in a conversation just last night. Have there been semi-official comments or trends in recent materials? Reserve feats, Book of Swords, Warlocks, etc...
Eric Anondson 06-05-07, 04:22 PM	Funny, I've seen similar posts every month for the last three years...Tell me about it. :bored:
Swiftbrook 06-05-07, 04:53 PM	Funny, I've seen similar posts every month for the last three years... First one I've see from a publisher. Also, I don't see any more character based rule books on the schedule from WotC for the rest of the year. Nothing from Complete Champion in May thru December. Several concept, idea type, fluff DM books. Could be announced at GenCon or next year at GenCon. When it is announced, I believe it will be GenCon. As much as they are trying to hype up DDEX, GenCon Indy just has the numbers and broader appeal to give WotC the most bang for the buck. Also, I suspect they'll want to do a year long buildup to the first sales. Those sales will be at GenCon, 25,000 attendees shadows DDEX. -Swiftbrook
Sieylianna 06-05-07, 06:38 PM	Going by memory & hearsay, I believe that a large part of the LC 2e=>3e problems involved how they handled Cert conversion. Thankfully, this is one issue LG can ignore. I hope that when the change does happen, our campaign will survive the transition. The problem with LC was that it never should have converted. Playtesters knew the systems were too far apart for a conversion to be reaslistic, but the bulk of the players weren't involved in the playtest effort. Certs were a significant problem, but another problem was letting high level PCs convert to the new system. How many conversions have we seen in LG that allow the PCs to convert with no restrictions on changing race, ability scores or classes? Zero. And the 3.0 to 3.5 (and year 7 druid) changes weren't nearly as significant as going from 2nd edition to 3rd. Ed
Genghis Cohen 06-05-07, 08:54 PM	Here's why I think that there will be no announcement of a new edition at GenCon: 1) WotC has publicly stated that they'll give the gaming community at least one year notice before a new edition debuts. 2) The Rules Compendium. While a lot of the recent products, like adventures, can easily be converted for use in a new edition, try doing that with a rules compendium. If they announce a new edition at GenCon, who will buy the yet to be released Rules Compendium? That's a lot of inventory to eat. I believe that a new edition will be announced when a) they're ready to develop one (although I agree with Sam that the new edition is sort of already here) and when b) they don't have to worry about inventory becoming instantly rendered almost worthless. I think that a good sign that the announcement of a new edition is around the corner will be when retailers report that books like Complete Warrior are no longer available from WotC.
Timlagor 06-05-07, 09:21 PM	My money's on DDXP '09 for the announcement that it's in the Pipeline with release 12-18 months later. Of course that's pure speculation. I do expect LG to survive the conversion in some form though there may well be a mandatory retirement of all existing PCs ...you could have a really cool finale on the lines of the Computer Game DOOM's ending :D
LGMoses 06-07-07, 11:13 PM	suppossedly the new star wars system is the proto for 4e. I'm playing Star Wars for the first time this weekend just to test the system out. I hope its atleast another couple years before they release 4e. If thats true then you can expect lots of advertising for the dam dnd minis game in the book. The new Star Wars book is just chock full of stuff trying to get you to buy minis. Its annoying. They changed movement from feet to squares! Then, in the section on ship battles, it says that if you can, ignore the rules on ship battles in the book and just play the ship battle out in an impromptu game of star wars minis. I can't fault em for trying to sell stuff but thats going to get old. If the dnd 4e book is nething like that they can expect I'll be encouraging all my gamers to play with their own Reaper minis.
Eric Anondson 06-08-07, 01:39 AM	suppossedly the new star wars system is the proto for 4e.No it isn't. The developers and authors have said this speculation flat wrong. There may be great ideas that get picked up from Star Wars Saga edition for 4e. But that would be only because they were great ideas, not because Saga edition was a test ground for 4e proposals. Saga edition was writen and developed by hired freelancers. Not WotC R&D.
lseelba 06-08-07, 03:21 AM	Here's what I'd like to see in 4E: A solid (SOLID) set of rules for 3D/flying combat. Integration with Computer Aided Play. This is more for the DM's than the PC's, but I know Hasbro/Wizards has the resources to do it. Could you imagine a 1st party software program that came bundled with the DM's guide that would track everything for you, including initiatives, spell effects, monster stats, distance and line of sight (I know I'm pushing it here), and PC stats? Imagine that every time you bought a mod or downloaded a mod it came with software that had everything ready to run, even online. Actually, the idea of an online platform developed and hosted by Wizards where you could play your games makes me drool. Lou
MatteBlack 06-08-07, 09:53 AM	Here's what I'd like to see in 4E: A solid (SOLID) set of rules for 3D/flying combat. Integration with Computer Aided Play. This is more for the DM's than the PC's, but I know Hasbro/Wizards has the resources to do it. Could you imagine a 1st party software program that came bundled with the DM's guide that would track everything for you, including initiatives, spell effects, monster stats, distance and line of sight (I know I'm pushing it here), and PC stats? Imagine that every time you bought a mod or downloaded a mod it came with software that had everything ready to run, even online. Actually, the idea of an online platform developed and hosted by Wizards where you could play your games makes me drool. Lou I have heard many folks talk about MMOs eating into the tabletop gaming industry. Becoming more online friendly would probably be good business strategy. I could even imagine how a utility that helped track movement, rolls and modifiers could help players better understand those parts of the rules... ...assuming it worked.
kenobi65 06-08-07, 10:42 AM	The new Star Wars book is just chock full of stuff trying to get you to buy minis. Its annoying. They changed movement from feet to squares! Well, setting aside the fact that the *old* rules didn't use feet, either (in those rules, the "5-foot square" of D&D was replaced by the "2-meter square")... Mechanically, that's no different. The granularity of distance measurement in the old game stopped at the 2-meter (one square) level, anyway. All it's doing is putting a different label on it (and, from the standpoint of using a battle mat, a more obvious label, to boot).
The_Jester 06-08-07, 10:47 AM	First one I've see from a publisher. Speculation is still speculation regardless if the one doing it is just some guy on the street or some guy who makes books. I don't think their competitor has any more of an insight into their books and products than anyone else, people just listen more when he makes wild guesses. suppossedly the new star wars system is the proto for 4e. Because WotC is known for putting the fate of their entire gaming line in the hands of untested designers known for a handful of books. SWS represents what 3.5 was: a look back on a system with years and years of constant playing to find the flaws, weak spots and problem areas. Alot of the changes will carry over because so many are common sense. What will happen before 4E? A 3.5 Revised line with the same rulesets but reprinted books with clarified rules, full errata and likely some of the FAQ incorporated. Liberally dashed with the best of the best in feats, PrC and spells. So they can milk as much money out of 3.5 as possible as Core books always sell better. And since they'll essentially be reprints with better organization and a dash of new art they'll be cheap and inexpensive to produce. That's not on the line-up for '08 so that'll be '09 at the earliest. Follow that with a couple more years to let the books sell and we see 4E at 2011 or 2012. More than half a decade away.
Grantor 06-08-07, 04:35 PM	I've been expecting something like this for a while... some non-WotC gaming expert announcing a definitive 'end of 3.5'. WotC is still pumping out supplements (Complete books) so they don't look like they're ready to abandon 3.5 just yet. I just checked the Products page... Not a single "Complete" or "Races of" book listed for the rest of the year, although there are three accessories/adventures targeted for every month until December. No "splat" at all in the upcoming line-up, which looks as full as they have been normally offering. Monster Manual V D&D Core Accessory 7/1/2007 Night Below Booster Pack Miniatures Accessory 7/1/2007 Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land 7/1/2007 Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk 8/1/2007 Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress 9/1/2007 D&D Icons: Legend of Drizzt Scenario Pack Miniatures 9/1/2007 Exemplars of Evil 9/1/2007 Fortress of the Yuan-ti Dungeons & Dragons 9/1/2007 Dragons of Eberron 10/1/2007 Dungeon Survival Guide 10/1/2007 Rules Compendium D&D Core Accessory Chris Sims 10/1/2007 Anauroch: The Sundering of the World 11/1/2007 D&D Dungeon Tiles V: Lost Caverns of the Underdark 11/1/2007 Grand History of the Realms 11/1/2007 Elder Evils 12/1/2007
Gargoyle117 06-08-07, 04:44 PM	The RPGA does have a big announcement for GenCon (wish I knew what it was), but I do know it is not Star Wars. That's just something they're allowing to happen on a sort of trial basis. It's not something they're focusing on or putting much effort towards. I'm very curious what the announcment might be, but I've not pried too much yet. ;)
The_Jester 06-10-07, 01:30 AM	Complete Champion was just released and in the past six we've seen Complete Scoundrel with Complete Psionic and Mage not that far before that. It probably won't be a stretch that we'll see Complete Martial or something early next year. And Complete Adventure was released in Jan '05 putting over a year between it and Mage. And half a year elapsed between Warrior and Divine, and again between that and Arcane. I think they're allowed lulls and pauses in products. But hey, what do I know? Wild speculation and crying that the sky is falling and end is nigh is cool too.
Morgen 06-10-07, 01:42 AM	Someone said once that Wizards had said there would be no new edition of D&D. But if they were it definately wouldn't be before Origins 2008...
lseelba 06-10-07, 03:17 AM	Complete Champion was just released and in the past six we've seen Complete Scoundrel with Complete Psionic and Mage not that far before that. It probably won't be a stretch that we'll see Complete Martial or something early next year. And Complete Adventure was released in Jan '05 putting over a year between it and Mage. And half a year elapsed between Warrior and Divine, and again between that and Arcane. I think they're allowed lulls and pauses in products. But hey, what do I know? Wild speculation and crying that the sky is falling and end is nigh is cool too. I heard that they will actually be rolling back the 3.5 ruleset to be more similar to 3.0. It's going to be called the 3.1416 edition and feature completely circular arguments and rulesets (much like the wildshape, polymorph, alter self errata) I heard this from my sister's cousin, who heard it from his brothers cousin. It's going to be announced at E3 2009.
bitznarf 06-10-07, 03:50 AM	Hey now, don't sully the number that is pi! I won't hear of it!
The_Jester 06-10-07, 01:08 PM	Here's what I'd like to see in 4E: A solid (SOLID) set of rules for 3D/flying combat. Integration with Computer Aided Play. This is more for the DM's than the PC's, but I know Hasbro/Wizards has the resources to do it. Could you imagine a 1st party software program that came bundled with the DM's guide that would track everything for you, including initiatives, spell effects, monster stats, distance and line of sight (I know I'm pushing it here), and PC stats? Imagine that every time you bought a mod or downloaded a mod it came with software that had everything ready to run, even online. Actually, the idea of an online platform developed and hosted by Wizards where you could play your games makes me drool. Lou There's alot of good stuff they can do with 4E. All the little oddities that have popped up and missed bits that just couldn't be fixed from the previous changes. As you said, flying combat is such a pain. When you have to flip to the DMG and figure out angles and fly-class, etc. Worse than grappling (but when you mix the two... oh the pain begins). EL and CR needs a bit of a tweak, especially at lower and higher levels. Advancing monsters often leads to grossness. And the un-proportional increase of monster HD to CR really makes spell saves and the like useless (CR12, 40HD and a poor saves of +12). Skills and the like. Soooo many points. The new Star Wars game seems to be on the right track, it'll be fun to look at it after a couple years of regular play and see what worked and what didn't. Heh, it's a 4E beta. Level Adjustment is often funky. Monster HD = to CL, shyeah right, even NPC classes get more than just base feats and skills for their extra HD...
JamesMaissen 06-11-07, 02:27 AM	Hey now, don't sully the number that is pi! I won't hear of it! Nah, it's just an approximation for it, and far from the only one that is used. Personally, I've always prefered '5' as an approximation for pi when asked for one. -James