5' tumble and the Tumble Feint feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

5' tumble and the Tumble Feint feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tengu
07-30-07, 12:01 PM Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoO or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat? Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left?

Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint?
Mattastrophic
07-30-07, 12:04 PM Interesting question!

So I dug out my PHB and found this:

"Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action."

Then again, there are other Tumble checks that are not part of move actions, though. Like falling. Oriental Adventures did allow you to roll a huge Tumble check to take a 10' step, so yes, using Tumble during a 5' step has been around before.

So there's evidence for both sides. One thing I'd say for certain, though, is that you'd have to hit DC 25 (DC 15 with a -10 penalty, to be exact) to 5' step at full speed.

-Matt
Iswald
07-30-07, 12:53 PM Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoO or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat? Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left?

Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint?

You cannot combine a 5' step with tumbling. You can either take a 5' step which doesn't provoke an AoO. Or, you can tumble 5' which will provoke an AoO unless you make your tumble check. A 5' step is not an action, not even movement per se. Note that a 5' step is listed in the misc actions section on page 145 and not the section on move actions on page 142 of the PHB.

However, tumbling is normally done at half speed. There are ways around this such as accelerated tumbling or becoming a thief acrobat. You can tumble just 5' if you want to, in order to move away or around something. But, it would be considered a move action and not a 5' step. Thus, you'd have to make your tumble check to avoid AoOs and would not be able to make a full attack. You would still have a standard action to use to make a single attack.

Also, if you check the feat description (PHB 2, page 84), you'll see that you have to use a tumble check to avoid an AoO from your target. Even if you could combine the tumbling with a 5' step, you won't have provoked an AoO and wouldn't be able to use the feat.

One problem I see with using tumbling feint is that you can't make any attack in the round you use it. You spend a swift action to designate a target. One move action to tumble. Either a standard or a second move action to feint. When you feint, you'll gain +5 to your attempt (improved feint doesn't give a bonus, just changes the type of action used). You wouldn't be able to attack until the round after you use the feat.

The only way I can think of to get an attack in the round you use tumbling feint is to enter invisible blade so that you can make a feint once/round as a free action.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-30-07, 01:10 PM Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoOFive-foot steps don't provoke so what's the point?

or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat?Ahh. To use the cheese, I see.

Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left?You could always make a 5-foot move which would consume your move action for the round.

I would rule that you could tumble during a 5-foot step but as Matt pointed out you need to to tumble at full speed and take the -10 penalty. I of course would expect table variation on this one and since there is no definitive answer to this you might have to just suck it up at some judges' tables.

Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint?No. Unless I'm missing something, improved feint doesn't give you a +4 bonus to feint, it merely allows you to feint as a move action instead of a standard action. You get +5 for tumbling feint.

So, I would allow you to tumble during a 5-foot step. Use improved feint as a move action. Then attack with your standard action.

Now this being said, I do not have the exact rules for tumbling feint in front of me. I am wondering if it is worded to say that you must use tumble to an attack of opportunity. If that is the case, this all falls to pieces because you did not tumble to avoid an attack of opportunity because a 5-foot step does not provoke.
jstorrie
07-30-07, 02:15 PM You may not tumble to avoid AoOs during a 5-ft step. You may only use tumble to avoid AoOs during a move action. There's no other way that you could reasonably combine tumbling with a 5-ft, so no 5-ft tumbles.

The above poster is right–if you want to be able to use Tumbling Feint in the same round that you attack, you'll need some kind of swift-action-Feint ability (Scarlet Corsair, Invisible Blade) or barring that some way to force your opponent to provoke (Knight with reach?)
Tengu
07-30-07, 02:41 PM Seems to me that the Tumble Feint feat which does require an AoO plus a successful tumble check to activate it, is pretty weak if even if I have Improved Feint, I still lose my action turn. Or to put it another way, those with or without the Improved Feint feat have the same negatives when using this feat. No love for Improved Feint.

So, in order to use this feat, I need to dance around the bad guy until I provoke. Then sacrifice my action turn to feint. I don't even see Fast Acrobat helping. Oh, well.
Mattastrophic
07-30-07, 05:55 PM Yeah, if you really care about that Bluff check, you're better off taking Skill Focus (Bluff), or working on getting Skill Mastery in Bluff.

-Matt
Tengu
07-30-07, 05:59 PM Where can I find Skill Mastery?

Thanks,
JJeff
07-30-07, 08:54 PM Rogue 10 Class ability choice. Yup, that one...
bitznarf
07-30-07, 10:40 PM You can also get it from Invisible Blade can't you? Or at least, enough of it for your purpose.
Maesto
07-30-07, 11:10 PM Insightful feint. Wizard/Sorceror 1 spell. Feint as a swift action. Does that help?
Iswald
07-30-07, 11:15 PM Insightful feint. Wizard/Sorceror 1 spell. Feint as a swift action. Does that help?

Nope. You already use a swift action that round to declare your target. You need to be able to feint as a free action. Scarlet corsair's Corsair's Feint (at 7th level of the limited PrC) or Uncanny Feint from the 5th level of Invisible Blade.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tengu 07-30-07, 12:01 PM	Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoO or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat? Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left? Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint?
Mattastrophic 07-30-07, 12:04 PM	Interesting question! So I dug out my PHB and found this: "Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action." Then again, there are other Tumble checks that are not part of move actions, though. Like falling. Oriental Adventures did allow you to roll a huge Tumble check to take a 10' step, so yes, using Tumble during a 5' step has been around before. So there's evidence for both sides. One thing I'd say for certain, though, is that you'd have to hit DC 25 (DC 15 with a -10 penalty, to be exact) to 5' step at full speed. -Matt
Iswald 07-30-07, 12:53 PM	Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoO or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat? Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left? Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint? You cannot combine a 5' step with tumbling. You can either take a 5' step which doesn't provoke an AoO. Or, you can tumble 5' which will provoke an AoO unless you make your tumble check. A 5' step is not an action, not even movement per se. Note that a 5' step is listed in the misc actions section on page 145 and not the section on move actions on page 142 of the PHB. However, tumbling is normally done at half speed. There are ways around this such as accelerated tumbling or becoming a thief acrobat. You can tumble just 5' if you want to, in order to move away or around something. But, it would be considered a move action and not a 5' step. Thus, you'd have to make your tumble check to avoid AoOs and would not be able to make a full attack. You would still have a standard action to use to make a single attack. Also, if you check the feat description (PHB 2, page 84), you'll see that you have to use a tumble check to avoid an AoO from your target. Even if you could combine the tumbling with a 5' step, you won't have provoked an AoO and wouldn't be able to use the feat. One problem I see with using tumbling feint is that you can't make any attack in the round you use it. You spend a swift action to designate a target. One move action to tumble. Either a standard or a second move action to feint. When you feint, you'll gain +5 to your attempt (improved feint doesn't give a bonus, just changes the type of action used). You wouldn't be able to attack until the round after you use the feat. The only way I can think of to get an attack in the round you use tumbling feint is to enter invisible blade so that you can make a feint once/round as a free action.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-30-07, 01:10 PM	Can you tumble as part of a 5 ft. step? As to avoid an AoOFive-foot steps don't provoke so what's the point? or to activate the Tumbling Feint feat?Ahh. To use the cheese, I see. Does this cost a movement action or is it free like a normal 5 ft step is? Do you still have a full round action left?You could always make a 5-foot move which would consume your move action for the round. I would rule that you could tumble during a 5-foot step but as Matt pointed out you need to to tumble at full speed and take the -10 penalty. I of course would expect table variation on this one and since there is no definitive answer to this you might have to just suck it up at some judges' tables. Given the above, if you have the Tumble Feint feat and the Improved Feint feat and you take a 5 ft tumble, do you get a total +9 to feint and also get to do it during a move round (still getting a chance to attack in the same round) or do you have to sacrifice your standard action to get in the feint?No. Unless I'm missing something, improved feint doesn't give you a +4 bonus to feint, it merely allows you to feint as a move action instead of a standard action. You get +5 for tumbling feint. So, I would allow you to tumble during a 5-foot step. Use improved feint as a move action. Then attack with your standard action. Now this being said, I do not have the exact rules for tumbling feint in front of me. I am wondering if it is worded to say that you must use tumble to an attack of opportunity. If that is the case, this all falls to pieces because you did not tumble to avoid an attack of opportunity because a 5-foot step does not provoke.
jstorrie 07-30-07, 02:15 PM	You may not tumble to avoid AoOs during a 5-ft step. You may only use tumble to avoid AoOs during a move action. There's no other way that you could reasonably combine tumbling with a 5-ft, so no 5-ft tumbles. The above poster is right–if you want to be able to use Tumbling Feint in the same round that you attack, you'll need some kind of swift-action-Feint ability (Scarlet Corsair, Invisible Blade) or barring that some way to force your opponent to provoke (Knight with reach?)
Tengu 07-30-07, 02:41 PM	Seems to me that the Tumble Feint feat which does require an AoO plus a successful tumble check to activate it, is pretty weak if even if I have Improved Feint, I still lose my action turn. Or to put it another way, those with or without the Improved Feint feat have the same negatives when using this feat. No love for Improved Feint. So, in order to use this feat, I need to dance around the bad guy until I provoke. Then sacrifice my action turn to feint. I don't even see Fast Acrobat helping. Oh, well.
Mattastrophic 07-30-07, 05:55 PM	Yeah, if you really care about that Bluff check, you're better off taking Skill Focus (Bluff), or working on getting Skill Mastery in Bluff. -Matt
Tengu 07-30-07, 05:59 PM	Where can I find Skill Mastery? Thanks,
JJeff 07-30-07, 08:54 PM	Rogue 10 Class ability choice. Yup, that one...
bitznarf 07-30-07, 10:40 PM	You can also get it from Invisible Blade can't you? Or at least, enough of it for your purpose.
Maesto 07-30-07, 11:10 PM	Insightful feint. Wizard/Sorceror 1 spell. Feint as a swift action. Does that help?
Iswald 07-30-07, 11:15 PM	Insightful feint. Wizard/Sorceror 1 spell. Feint as a swift action. Does that help? Nope. You already use a swift action that round to declare your target. You need to be able to feint as a free action. Scarlet corsair's Corsair's Feint (at 7th level of the limited PrC) or Uncanny Feint from the 5th level of Invisible Blade.