Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 12-24-06, 10:22 PM	A couple of issues that have come up recently. 1. Clerics and praying/meditating for spells. The PHB page 180 states "a divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once" which seems to contradict PHB page 32 under Clerics "he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation". I take this as meaning he must choose which spells he is taking for the day at the time of the meditation but can prepare a portion of those spells to save time (for example meditate for only 15 minutes for a quarter of his spells) and prepare the rest later but the later spells cannnot be changed from the initial choice made at meditation time. Is this how most people read this ? 2. Level 5 Druid Spell "animal growth" Does this spell effect druids (including the caster) who are wild shaped ? Does this spell effect summoned animals ?
Japangirl 12-25-06, 12:23 AM	1) You still have to meditate the full hour in the morning, but like a wizard you can leave some slots "open". You pray for 10 or 15 min (I forget which) to fill a spell slot you left with no memorized spell. 2a) Yes. 2b) Yes.
Sieylianna 12-26-06, 06:34 PM	2A is usually no. It falls under the LGCS rules which eliminate increasing size through two different magical effects. If you wild shape into a large animal, you can not use animal growth. If you wild shaped into a small or medium animal, technically you could use animal growth, but this is going to be inferior to just starting in a large animal. Ed
Japangirl 12-27-06, 12:00 AM	Well, you can turn into a large animal, reduce animal yourself, then animal growth yourself. The bonuses from animal growth make it better than just being large and not fiddling with it.
Mithreinmaethor 12-27-06, 03:39 AM	Well I am not a rules expert by any means but I think you are wrong here. Wildshape uses the Alternate Form rules. Which state that you keep your original type and subtype. Therefore you do not become the Animal Type and the spell would not work on you. Kind of like why we have Charm Animal, Charm Monster and Charm Person. As a GM I definitely would not allow you to do this.
Mithreinmaethor 12-27-06, 03:44 AM	2. Level 5 Druid Spell "animal growth" Does this spell effect druids (including the caster) who are wild shaped ? Read my pot just above this one. Unless someone from the Circle or a Triad tells me otherwise that is how I would rule on it. Does this spell effect summoned animals ? Summon Natures Ally - Yes (havent checked all of them but they are all of the animal type) Summon Monster - No (unless you find one that is an animal. All the Celestial and Fiendish creatures types change from animal to something else)
budleiser 12-27-06, 04:39 AM	Well, you can turn into a large animal, reduce animal yourself, then animal growth yourself. The bonuses from animal growth make it better than just being large and not fiddling with it. LOL. Somehow it's better to become large than it is to BE large. "We had to fight an Enlarged Giant!" "Wow a huge Giant?" "No, just large" "...." "He reduced himself and then enlarged himself!!" "... <stabs self>"
Howie23 12-27-06, 04:59 AM	Well I am not a rules expert by any means but I think you are wrong here. Wildshape uses the Alternate Form rules. Which state that you keep your original type and subtype. Therefore you do not become the Animal Type and the spell would not work on you. Isn't Alternate Form part of the Polymorph errata and thus not used in LG? David
clannagh 01-01-07, 05:57 PM	1) You still have to meditate the full hour in the morning, but like a wizard you can leave some slots "open". You pray for 10 or 15 min (I forget which) to fill a spell slot you left with no memorized spell. If you still have to meditate for the full hour .. and in addition the PHB states you must choose which spells at meditation time .. it seems to make no sense to leave slots open. As for the druid question: The consensus is that druids that wild shape larger cannot then animal growth themselves but druids that wildshape medium might be able to but people disagree on whether a druid can wildshape at all ??? Would reduce and then enlarging an animal work ?? I had assumed the effects would cancel each other out ??
Jay_Ibero_911 01-01-07, 09:15 PM	It's disappointing I just realized that any small sized druid will never be able to benefit from animal growth unless they turn into a small creature....so they would just become medium, albeit with good bonuses....
clannagh 01-02-07, 12:37 AM	It's disappointing I just realized that any small sized druid will never be able to benefit from animal growth unless they turn into a small creature....so they would just become medium, albeit with good bonuses.... I am not 100% sure about that ... My current take on the matter is that because LG do not use the wildshape/polymorph errata the druid effectively becomes the subtype etc of the new form and hence effectively IS the new form (size and all) and can therefore be enlarged regardless of the original size of the druid. This makes some sense as to claim that the black bear form of a medium druid has identical stats (but is inherently totally different) to the black bear form of a small druid is kinda counter-intuitive. My grasp of the intacies of wildshape/polymorph in LG is not great though so I will remain on the fence on the matter until its clarified.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-02-07, 12:47 AM	I am not 100% sure about that ... My current take on the matter is that because LG do not use the wildshape/polymorph errata the druid effectively becomes the subtype etc of the new form and hence effectively IS the new form (size and all) and can therefore be enlarged regardless of the original size of the druid. This makes some sense as to claim that the black bear form of a medium druid has identical stats (but is inherently totally different) to the black bear form of a small druid is kinda counter-intuitive. My grasp of the intacies of wildshape/polymorph in LG is not great though so I will remain on the fence on the matter until its clarified. My point being though that in LG things that increase your size don't stack, so if a small druid turned into anything medium or larger, he would be unable to benefit from any of the size bonuses from Animal Growth.
Lupo 01-02-07, 04:23 AM	My point being though that in LG things that increase your size don't stack, so if a small druid turned into anything medium or larger, he would be unable to benefit from any of the size bonuses from Animal Growth. a small druid (5) can wildshape into a small or medium (gaining one size category) animal a medium druid (5) can wildshape into a small (loosing one size category) or medium animal a large druid (5) can wildshape into a small (loosing TWO size categories) or a medium (loosing one size category) animal a small druid (9) can wildshape into a large (gaining two size categories) animal a medium druid (9) can wildshape into a large (gaining one size category) animal a large druid (9) can wildshape into a large animal now comes the tricky part ;) (assuming the druid has "natural spell" or the spells are casted some other way ON him while in animal form) Animal Growth Transmutation Level: Drd 5, Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: Up to one animal (Gargantuan or smaller) per two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes A number of animals grow to twice their normal size and eight times their normal weight. This alteration changes each animal’s size category to the next largest, grants it a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution (and thus an extra 2 hit points per HD), and imposes a –2 size penalty to Dexterity. The creature’s existing natural armor bonus increases by 2. The size change also affects the animal’s modifier to AC and attack rolls and its base damage. The animal’s space and reach change as appropriate to the new size, but its speed does not change. The spell also grants each subject damage reduction 10/magic and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by an animal is similarly enlarged by the spell, though this change has no effect on the magical properties of any such equipment. Any enlarged item that leaves the enlarged creature’s possession instantly returns to its normal size. The spell gives no means of command or influence over the enlarged animals. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. Reduce Animal Transmutation Level: Drd 2, Rgr 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One willing animal of Small, Medium, Large, or Huge size Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like reduce person, except that it affects a single willing animal. Reduce the damage dealt by the animal’s natural attacks as appropriate for its new size. Reduce Person Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes instant diminution of a humanoid creature, halving its height, length, and width and dividing its weight by 8. This decrease changes the creature’s size category to the next smaller one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size. A Small humanoid creature whose size decreases to Tiny has a space of 2-1/2 feet and a natural reach of 0 feet (meaning that it must enter an opponent’s square to attack). A Large humanoid creature whose size decreases to Medium has a space of 5 feet and a natural reach of 5 feet. This spell doesn’t change the target’s speed. All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them). Multiple magical effects that reduce size do not stack. Reduce person counters and dispels enlarge person. Reduce person can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron. IF the druid is already LARGER than his normal size, an "animal growth" gives damage reduction 10/magic and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws. IF a druid is EQUAL or SMALLER than his normal size, he gets all the benefits out of the "animal growth" spell (and will be large even when wildshaping back for the duration of the spell, according to the FAQ p 65 :D). IF a druid is two categories LARGER than his normal size and subject to a "reduce animal" he will shrink to a size one step smaller than the animal size (and will keep this size even when wildshaping back for the duration of the spell, according to the FAQ p 65 :D). IF a druid is one category LARGER than his normal size and subject to an "reduce animal" he will shrink to a normal size. IF a druid is EQUAL to his normal size and subject to to a "reduce animal" he will shrink to a smaller size (and will be smaller even when wildshaping back for the duration of the spell, according to the FAQ p 65 :D). another funny point: "reduce animal" is NOT countered by "animal growth" and vice versa. so a creative druid can come up with interesting combinations of wildshape, "animal growth" and "reduce animal" :P <edit> uhps and "animal growth" is NOT dismissable :), while "reduce animal" is :P<edit end> ciao martin m.
blood_kite 01-03-07, 04:29 PM	Most DM's I've gamed with don't seem to have a problem with my halfling druid casting Animal Growth on himself while a Dire Ape, with the understanding that he will not gain the size modifiers because the LGCS prevents spells and effects from stacking size increases. Animal Growth does more than just change your size. The DR and Resistance bonus have still come in handy.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-04-07, 08:32 PM	Most DM's I've gamed with don't seem to have a problem with my halfling druid casting Animal Growth on himself while a Dire Ape, with the understanding that he will not gain the size modifiers because the LGCS prevents spells and effects from stacking size increases. Animal Growth does more than just change your size. The DR and Resistance bonus have still come in handy. Yeah, but if you are just using it for those 2 things, is it really worth the 5th level slot? Then again...since it can target multiple animals, I suppose it just becomes gravy for you as your animal companion or summoned animals get beefy....
szwanger 01-07-07, 07:38 PM	A couple of issues that have come up recently. 1. Clerics and praying/meditating for spells. The PHB page 180 states "a divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once" which seems to contradict PHB page 32 under Clerics "he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation". I take this as meaning he must choose which spells he is taking for the day at the time of the meditation but can prepare a portion of those spells to save time (for example meditate for only 15 minutes for a quarter of his spells) and prepare the rest later but the later spells cannnot be changed from the initial choice made at meditation time. The PHB goes on to say (same page): "the character's mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." That seems pretty clear to me. ("abandoned a previously prepared spell" is just another way of saying "left a slot open"; there's no other mechanic that involves "abandoning" prepared spells.)
zigspatty 01-07-07, 09:31 PM	("abandoned a previously prepared spell" is just another way of saying "left a slot open"; there's no other mechanic that involves "abandoning" prepared spells.) Except the spontaneous casting of a cure/inflict spell. From the SRD: Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower "Abandon" could be a pretty good synonym for "lose" in the above reference, especially considering that losing the spell is deliberate. Patty
clannagh 01-07-07, 10:03 PM	.... nevertheless it definitely contradicts the statement on page 180 stating divine casters do not need to prepare all spells at once. In ths situation I assume the references under the class description clearly take precedence.
zigspatty 01-08-07, 12:43 AM	.... nevertheless it definitely contradicts the statement on page 180 stating divine casters do not need to prepare all spells at once. In ths situation I assume the references under the class description clearly take precedence. I'm having trouble seeing exactly where they conflict.... Cleric spends an hour meditating in the morning when her mind is fresh and decides to leave a 3rd level slot open to enable her a bit of versatility later in the day when she better knows what challenges she will likely face. She casts 4 of her spells before lunch: one of them is spontaneously lost and converted to a cure moderate wounds spell, the others are all cast exactly as they were memorized in the morning. A party member has been blinded, so she takes 15 minutes to memorize "Remove Blindness" to fill the open slot. Happiness reigns when she cures his blindness. Later, a party member is cursed, but, alas, she has no "Remove Curse" because she didn't choose it that morning or have another open slot available. She cannot choose to fill one of thos slots from which she's already cast because her mind is no longer fresh, even if she takes 15 minutes to meditate. She cannot fill the slot she lost to spontaneously cast a cure spell either, so somebody better have a scroll ready or they're waiting 'til tomorrow morning. I don't see the references as mutually exclusive... Patty
clannagh 01-08-07, 12:45 AM	I'm having trouble seeing exactly where they conflict.... Cleric spends an hour meditating in the morning when her mind is fresh and decides to leave a 3rd level slot open to enable her a bit of versatility later in the day when she better knows what challenges she will likely face. She casts 4 of her spells before lunch: one of them is spontaneously lost and converted to a cure moderate wounds spell, the others are all cast exactly as they were memorized in the morning. A party member has been blinded, so she takes 15 minutes to memorize "Remove Blindness" to fill the open slot. Happiness reigns when she cures his blindness. Later, a party member is cursed, but, alas, she has no "Remove Curse" because she didn't choose it that morning or have another open slot available. She cannot choose to fill one of thos slots from which she's already cast because her mind is no longer fresh, even if she takes 15 minutes to meditate. She cannot fill the slot she lost to spontaneously cast a cure spell either, so somebody better have a scroll ready or they're waiting 'til tomorrow morning. I don't see the references as mutually exclusive... Patty well that was my original reading of it but a lot of posters are disagreeing
zigspatty 01-08-07, 07:36 PM	English is not always as precisely written as we'd like it to be. Especially in our D&D rulebooks.... The PHB page 180 states "a divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once" which seems to contradict PHB page 32 under Clerics "he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation"..... The PHB goes on to say (same page): "the character's mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." I take the above quotes to mean that the divine caster does not have to choose all of his spells at once, and can choose to leave a slot or two open to be filled later in the day when he knows exactly what he is needing. However, it will require additional time (15 min per spell) to choose them later in the day, and he will not have spells in those slots available to cast until he does so. With regard to those 1 or 2 open slots, his mind is still fresh. Once those spells are used by casting them normally or by abandoning them to spontaneously cast a cure, the slot will then be "empty", (though the authors might've better conveyed their meaning with the word "used" to describe a spell slot from which the spell has now been cast.) The cleric is not free to fill them by meditating for 15 minutes because his mind will not be "fresh" again until his regular meditation time. I guess that remembering a divine spell is a rather strenuous thing.... Patty