A Tree Grows in It [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Tree Grows in It [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zanzibax
03-23-07, 02:30 PM Recently, I witnessed one of the most knowledgeable DMs on these boards become stumped in a game.

The situation doesn't require any spoilers.

My party had managed to position itself directly below an Elder Air Elemental...who decided hovering 15' above us would allow it an unlimited number of slams and a strictly limited response.

After picking on our warmage, one insane gamer decided that this was a good time to honor Arbor Day (he's famous for it).

So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree.

The player eventually retracted the action in order to continue on with the game...but I gotta ask you guys:

What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?
Jay_Ibero_911
03-23-07, 03:00 PM Recently, I witnessed one of the most knowledgeable DMs on these boards become stumped in a game.

The situation doesn't require any spoilers.

My party had managed to position itself directly below an Elder Air Elemental...who decided hovering 15' above us would allow it an unlimited number of slams and a strictly limited response.

After picking on our warmage, one insane gamer decided that this was a good time to honor Arbor Day (he's famous for it).

So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree.

The player eventually retracted the action in order to continue on with the game...but I gotta ask you guys:

What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?

The player probably intended it to either shove the elemental up in the air as the tree grew, or at least have it pushed out of the way, and proved aerial cover so the elemental can't be directly above you. At best it would have just required the elemental to repostition itself, so it wouldn't have had too much impact anyway...
kenobi65
03-23-07, 03:55 PM Having once used thrown a Quall's feather token - swan boat into the middle of a melee (way back when, while playing the original Slavers series in a home game), just to sow confusion, I applaud your "insane player" and his outside-the-box tactics.

That said, I agree with Jay. The easiest way to adjudicate this would be to have had the tree "shove" the air elemental out of the way when it came into being. It would have required the air elemental to spend a move action to move back into range of the PCs, and if it wanted to keep up its original strategy (slams from above, where the PCs can't reach it), the PCs would be getting some cover from the tree (and, even so, it'd have to be attacking "at an angle", as the tree's trunk is now in the way).
trollbill
03-23-07, 04:33 PM What an ugly situation. I am torn on it, partly because I feel for the DM having to make the adjudication on the spot, and partly because I am appaulled that a player had to take back a clever action because the DM didn't know how to deal with it. While the above rulings work just fine, I am of the opinion that the latter of the two situations should never happen. If you don't know the rules, make something up, even if the mechanic you come up doesn't meet your own personal standards, its better to have a sub-par table ruling than disallow the action entirely Especially if that action may have a major effect on the outcome.
Zanzibax
03-23-07, 05:18 PM What an ugly situation. I am torn on it, partly because I feel for the DM having to make the adjudication on the spot, and partly because I am appaulled that a player had to take back a clever action because the DM didn't know how to deal with it. While the above rulings work just fine, I am of the opinion that the latter of the two situations should never happen. If you don't know the rules, make something up, even if the mechanic you come up doesn't meet your own personal standards, its better to have a sub-par table ruling than disallow the action entirely Especially if that action may have a major effect on the outcome.

Oh no...it wasn't at all ugly.

We were having fun at the DM's expense and had other options open to us. I will tell you this though: There *are no rules* on most of the tactics this poor DM is abused with...and he puts up with most of it...he deals with it.

This particular tactic had a special value as an inside joke for the poor DM, having been used in an equally unpredictable and unpatterned...and utterly unrelated...tactic in the past.
Zanzibax
03-23-07, 05:31 PM Having once used thrown a Quall's feather token - swan boat into the middle of a melee (way back when, while playing the original Slavers series in a home game), just to sow confusion, I applaud your "insane player" and his outside-the-box tactics.

Quaal's Feather Tokens: Never leave home without one. :schemes:
Samwise
03-23-07, 05:45 PM /goes off to start a thread about banning all Feather Tokens

/also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens
kenobi65
03-23-07, 10:40 PM /also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens

It'd be an order of magnitude more fun if you tarred him, then threw the Tokens at him. He'd have all these trees, swan boats, etc. stuck to himself. :D
Rerednaw
03-23-07, 10:47 PM /goes off to start a thread about banning all Feather Tokens

/also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens

Considering they aren't open access to begin with, and with the CL+2 rule on crafting gone, I think you'll see a decrease in their presence.
Samwise
03-23-07, 10:51 PM It'd be an order of magnitude more fun if you tarred him, then threw the Tokens at him. He'd have all these trees, swan boats, etc. stuck to himself. :D

You just made the list buddy!

/arranges to create a unique Feather Token of Tarring and Feathering then tosses a handful at kenobi65
cycloptic_squirrel
03-24-07, 01:09 AM This just reminds me of my early day in 3.0, where we were playing a one shot and my cleric tossed a tree token to an enemy as part of the spell command. The command was 'eat'. The DM laughed and allowed me to pull it off, with the tree violently exploding from within the bad guy. Afterward it was confirmed that during a campaign I was never to do that, not to mention the problems with possesion, magic item activation words, and implied intent in the command spell. :w00t:
TheBlackFlail
03-24-07, 02:26 AM /also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens

You'd have to get through most of the Vesve, we did name a town after him, after all (Quaalsten).
gomeztoo
03-24-07, 08:26 AM What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?

The tree grows up and stops the moment it touches the elemental. Alternately, it doesn't grow at all because there is no space for it.
This is how it was ruled before when we attempted to use it (basically to block up an exit).
And I recall there is a ruling somewhere on how item-craeting effects can't damage (and thus move/shove etc) creatures in their path.

Edit: Though if I am wrong, and there's a rule for it, I'd be interested to know. I still got that tree...
Madfox11
03-24-07, 08:34 AM I doubt there is a specific rule in this regard, although I would combine Gomeztoo's rule with the fact that most things can be pushed out of the way. I would probably treat it as a Bull Rush attempt by the tree. If the tree wins, the elemental is pushed out of the way. If the elemental wins the tree splinters, or grows around the elemental (both are huge and strong - in case of smaller creatures the tree would automatically win the bull rush). In either case there would be a tree providing cover against the elemental and perhaps even forcing him to get down.

Note that this is a personal ruling. If somebody can point me to an official rule fine, if not, it is in the distinct gray area where DMs can decide for their own.

P.S. Never had much problems with these tokens...
Zanzibax
03-24-07, 12:07 PM I doubt there is a specific rule in this regard, although I would combine Gomeztoo's rule with the fact that most things can be pushed out of the way. I would probably treat it as a Bull Rush attempt by the tree. If the tree wins, the elemental is pushed out of the way. If the elemental wins the tree splinters, or grows around the elemental (both are huge and strong - in case of smaller creatures the tree would automatically win the bull rush). In either case there would be a tree providing cover against the elemental and perhaps even forcing him to get down.

Note that this is a personal ruling. If somebody can point me to an official rule fine, if not, it is in the distinct gray area where DMs can decide for their own.

P.S. Never had much problems with these tokens...

I'll have to break out some disco music next time an air elemental is going to get down with a Quaal's feather token: Tree
Zanzibax
03-24-07, 02:24 PM The tree grows up and stops the moment it touches the elemental. Alternately, it doesn't grow at all because there is no space for it.
This is how it was ruled before when we attempted to use it (basically to block up an exit).
And I recall there is a ruling somewhere on how item-craeting effects can't damage (and thus move/shove etc) creatures in their path.

Edit: Though if I am wrong, and there's a rule for it, I'd be interested to know. I still got that tree...

Where's that ruling?
gomeztoo
03-24-07, 05:13 PM The only actual rule I can find rigth now is from the SRD, regarding Conjuration magic:

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space.

Summoning/creating an item that appears in such a way that it needs 'more room' (needs space occupied by the elemental, in the above example) is similar to an attempt to summon it 'inside another creature or object'.

Note that the tree doesn't 'grow': it 'spring into being' (an instantaneous effect). So it can't 'bull rush', push aside, etc. It woudl just fail to grow because it is, effectively, conjured ''inside another creature or object' (the elemental).
Zanzibax
03-24-07, 05:32 PM The only actual rule I can find rigth now is from the SRD, regarding Conjuration magic:

Summoning/creating an item that appears in such a way that it needs 'more room' (needs space occupied by the elemental, in the above example) is similar to an attempt to summon it 'inside another creature or object'.

Note that the tree doesn't 'grow': it 'spring into being' (an instantaneous effect). So it can't 'bull rush', push aside, etc. It woudl just fail to grow because it is, effectively, conjured ''inside another creature or object' (the elemental).

That would tend to eliminate the usefulness of the various "Wall" spells.

It isn't *inside* another creature or object. It's *between* them.

I'll disagree until I see something that makes more sense to me.
Madfox11
03-25-07, 08:55 AM Actually, the wall spells are pretty specific in mention that they fail if they cross through an object or creature. So they do follow that same rulling. (Wall of fire and similar insubstantial walls excempted.)
MikeJS
03-26-07, 09:09 PM So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree. What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?If I were DM, I'd look at QFT:Tree in the DMG, note the paucity of description, and decide that the lack thereof permits me to extrapolate as I see fit. I'd determine that the tree's "instantaneous" appearance constitutes a charging bull-rush against anything in its intended space; I'd make the bull-rush an Improved Bull Rush because I don't want the hassle of dealing with AoOs against a canopy of branches. I'd determine that the tree is at least Huge in size, and that its "strength" is 10+8(huge)+12 (CL of QFT) = 30 and attack-bonus is 2(charge)+8(huge)+15(STR)+12(CL) = +37 for purposes of the bull-rush. I'd grant the tree another +4 for stability if it appears over level ground or ground of any angle with soil for roots to penetrate; -4 if it appears over water or suspended in air.

If the tree's bull-rush check is insufficient to bulldoze the target completely out of the way, I'd rule that the tree grows around the "cubes" containing them (treat as DC22 Entangle + squeezing effect; liquid or gaseous creatures immune to entangling, but are squeezed). If the target is huge or larger in size and is a solid creature, then I'd rule that the tree merely grows laterally underneath the target if the tree fails the check.

IOW, the tree should be extraordinarily effective against something like a harpy, but worthless versus a dragon.

After it's initial bull-rush, the tree is stationary, defenseless, and vulnerable to attacks. Due to its porous nature, I'd rule that it provides no protection at all from a breath weapon or other spreading or burst AoE effect.

Against an elder air-elemental (huge), I'd rule that the tree takes 1d12 rounds to destroy with slam and whirlwind attacks if it is rooted in soil, but is automatically blown over if not firmly rooted. (For the d12, I'm just taking the CL and making it a die -- it's easier than trying to figure out how many hitpoints and hardness the stupid thing has, and then rolling slam damage round after round.) Versus elemental's whirlwind, I'd rule that all the tree's leaves are blown away after 1d3 rounds, reducing the tree's concealment from total initially, to +7 after one round (if more rounds remain), and then only +4 thereafter (until the tree is totally destroyed). A blown-over tree falls in a direction of the Elemental's choice, and Entangles and squeezes anyone it falls upon as a cone-effect with its trunk square as the origin point; victims take damage equivalent to being full-attacked by the Elemental's slams (4d8+12 in this case). If the tree is destroyed incrementally (rather than blown) over, it becomes a denuded trunk 10' tall.
gomeztoo
03-27-07, 03:27 AM I won't argue with this on your table when you are the DM, but I think that the rules are very clear: the tree can not appear if the space it appears in isn't clear, and it can't appear in mid-air.
It is not a powerful token, for 400 gp it doesn't so much.
I expect table variation, and some flexibility in its use would be nice, but you shoudl eb aware that making it a 30 strength bullrushing creature with entangling powers is not according to the RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 02:30 PM	Recently, I witnessed one of the most knowledgeable DMs on these boards become stumped in a game. The situation doesn't require any spoilers. My party had managed to position itself directly below an Elder Air Elemental...who decided hovering 15' above us would allow it an unlimited number of slams and a strictly limited response. After picking on our warmage, one insane gamer decided that this was a good time to honor Arbor Day (he's famous for it). So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree. The player eventually retracted the action in order to continue on with the game...but I gotta ask you guys: What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-23-07, 03:00 PM	Recently, I witnessed one of the most knowledgeable DMs on these boards become stumped in a game. The situation doesn't require any spoilers. My party had managed to position itself directly below an Elder Air Elemental...who decided hovering 15' above us would allow it an unlimited number of slams and a strictly limited response. After picking on our warmage, one insane gamer decided that this was a good time to honor Arbor Day (he's famous for it). So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree. The player eventually retracted the action in order to continue on with the game...but I gotta ask you guys: What was supposed to happen with the tree in place? The player probably intended it to either shove the elemental up in the air as the tree grew, or at least have it pushed out of the way, and proved aerial cover so the elemental can't be directly above you. At best it would have just required the elemental to repostition itself, so it wouldn't have had too much impact anyway...
kenobi65 03-23-07, 03:55 PM	Having once used thrown a Quall's feather token - swan boat into the middle of a melee (way back when, while playing the original Slavers series in a home game), just to sow confusion, I applaud your "insane player" and his outside-the-box tactics. That said, I agree with Jay. The easiest way to adjudicate this would be to have had the tree "shove" the air elemental out of the way when it came into being. It would have required the air elemental to spend a move action to move back into range of the PCs, and if it wanted to keep up its original strategy (slams from above, where the PCs can't reach it), the PCs would be getting some cover from the tree (and, even so, it'd have to be attacking "at an angle", as the tree's trunk is now in the way).
trollbill 03-23-07, 04:33 PM	What an ugly situation. I am torn on it, partly because I feel for the DM having to make the adjudication on the spot, and partly because I am appaulled that a player had to take back a clever action because the DM didn't know how to deal with it. While the above rulings work just fine, I am of the opinion that the latter of the two situations should never happen. If you don't know the rules, make something up, even if the mechanic you come up doesn't meet your own personal standards, its better to have a sub-par table ruling than disallow the action entirely Especially if that action may have a major effect on the outcome.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 05:18 PM	What an ugly situation. I am torn on it, partly because I feel for the DM having to make the adjudication on the spot, and partly because I am appaulled that a player had to take back a clever action because the DM didn't know how to deal with it. While the above rulings work just fine, I am of the opinion that the latter of the two situations should never happen. If you don't know the rules, make something up, even if the mechanic you come up doesn't meet your own personal standards, its better to have a sub-par table ruling than disallow the action entirely Especially if that action may have a major effect on the outcome. Oh no...it wasn't at all ugly. We were having fun at the DM's expense and had other options open to us. I will tell you this though: There are no rules on most of the tactics this poor DM is abused with...and he puts up with most of it...he deals with it. This particular tactic had a special value as an inside joke for the poor DM, having been used in an equally unpredictable and unpatterned...and utterly unrelated...tactic in the past.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 05:31 PM	Having once used thrown a Quall's feather token - swan boat into the middle of a melee (way back when, while playing the original Slavers series in a home game), just to sow confusion, I applaud your "insane player" and his outside-the-box tactics. Quaal's Feather Tokens: Never leave home without one. :schemes:
Samwise 03-23-07, 05:45 PM	/goes off to start a thread about banning all Feather Tokens /also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens
kenobi65 03-23-07, 10:40 PM	/also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens It'd be an order of magnitude more fun if you tarred him, then threw the Tokens at him. He'd have all these trees, swan boats, etc. stuck to himself. :D
Rerednaw 03-23-07, 10:47 PM	/goes off to start a thread about banning all Feather Tokens /also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens Considering they aren't open access to begin with, and with the CL+2 rule on crafting gone, I think you'll see a decrease in their presence.
Samwise 03-23-07, 10:51 PM	It'd be an order of magnitude more fun if you tarred him, then threw the Tokens at him. He'd have all these trees, swan boats, etc. stuck to himself. :D You just made the list buddy! /arranges to create a unique Feather Token of Tarring and Feathering then tosses a handful at kenobi65
cycloptic_squirrel 03-24-07, 01:09 AM	This just reminds me of my early day in 3.0, where we were playing a one shot and my cleric tossed a tree token to an enemy as part of the spell command. The command was 'eat'. The DM laughed and allowed me to pull it off, with the tree violently exploding from within the bad guy. Afterward it was confirmed that during a campaign I was never to do that, not to mention the problems with possesion, magic item activation words, and implied intent in the command spell. :w00t:
TheBlackFlail 03-24-07, 02:26 AM	/also starts a petition to have Quaal tarred and feathered with his own Tokens You'd have to get through most of the Vesve, we did name a town after him, after all (Quaalsten).
gomeztoo 03-24-07, 08:26 AM	What was supposed to happen with the tree in place? The tree grows up and stops the moment it touches the elemental. Alternately, it doesn't grow at all because there is no space for it. This is how it was ruled before when we attempted to use it (basically to block up an exit). And I recall there is a ruling somewhere on how item-craeting effects can't damage (and thus move/shove etc) creatures in their path. Edit: Though if I am wrong, and there's a rule for it, I'd be interested to know. I still got that tree...
Madfox11 03-24-07, 08:34 AM	I doubt there is a specific rule in this regard, although I would combine Gomeztoo's rule with the fact that most things can be pushed out of the way. I would probably treat it as a Bull Rush attempt by the tree. If the tree wins, the elemental is pushed out of the way. If the elemental wins the tree splinters, or grows around the elemental (both are huge and strong - in case of smaller creatures the tree would automatically win the bull rush). In either case there would be a tree providing cover against the elemental and perhaps even forcing him to get down. Note that this is a personal ruling. If somebody can point me to an official rule fine, if not, it is in the distinct gray area where DMs can decide for their own. P.S. Never had much problems with these tokens...
Zanzibax 03-24-07, 12:07 PM	I doubt there is a specific rule in this regard, although I would combine Gomeztoo's rule with the fact that most things can be pushed out of the way. I would probably treat it as a Bull Rush attempt by the tree. If the tree wins, the elemental is pushed out of the way. If the elemental wins the tree splinters, or grows around the elemental (both are huge and strong - in case of smaller creatures the tree would automatically win the bull rush). In either case there would be a tree providing cover against the elemental and perhaps even forcing him to get down. Note that this is a personal ruling. If somebody can point me to an official rule fine, if not, it is in the distinct gray area where DMs can decide for their own. P.S. Never had much problems with these tokens... I'll have to break out some disco music next time an air elemental is going to get down with a Quaal's feather token: Tree
Zanzibax 03-24-07, 02:24 PM	The tree grows up and stops the moment it touches the elemental. Alternately, it doesn't grow at all because there is no space for it. This is how it was ruled before when we attempted to use it (basically to block up an exit). And I recall there is a ruling somewhere on how item-craeting effects can't damage (and thus move/shove etc) creatures in their path. Edit: Though if I am wrong, and there's a rule for it, I'd be interested to know. I still got that tree... Where's that ruling?
gomeztoo 03-24-07, 05:13 PM	The only actual rule I can find rigth now is from the SRD, regarding Conjuration magic: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. Summoning/creating an item that appears in such a way that it needs 'more room' (needs space occupied by the elemental, in the above example) is similar to an attempt to summon it 'inside another creature or object'. Note that the tree doesn't 'grow': it 'spring into being' (an instantaneous effect). So it can't 'bull rush', push aside, etc. It woudl just fail to grow because it is, effectively, conjured ''inside another creature or object' (the elemental).
Zanzibax 03-24-07, 05:32 PM	The only actual rule I can find rigth now is from the SRD, regarding Conjuration magic: Summoning/creating an item that appears in such a way that it needs 'more room' (needs space occupied by the elemental, in the above example) is similar to an attempt to summon it 'inside another creature or object'. Note that the tree doesn't 'grow': it 'spring into being' (an instantaneous effect). So it can't 'bull rush', push aside, etc. It woudl just fail to grow because it is, effectively, conjured ''inside another creature or object' (the elemental). That would tend to eliminate the usefulness of the various "Wall" spells. It isn't inside another creature or object. It's between them. I'll disagree until I see something that makes more sense to me.
Madfox11 03-25-07, 08:55 AM	Actually, the wall spells are pretty specific in mention that they fail if they cross through an object or creature. So they do follow that same rulling. (Wall of fire and similar insubstantial walls excempted.)
MikeJS 03-26-07, 09:09 PM	So...directly below the Elder Air Elemental...he planted a Feather Token: Tree. What was supposed to happen with the tree in place?If I were DM, I'd look at QFT:Tree in the DMG, note the paucity of description, and decide that the lack thereof permits me to extrapolate as I see fit. I'd determine that the tree's "instantaneous" appearance constitutes a charging bull-rush against anything in its intended space; I'd make the bull-rush an Improved Bull Rush because I don't want the hassle of dealing with AoOs against a canopy of branches. I'd determine that the tree is at least Huge in size, and that its "strength" is 10+8(huge)+12 (CL of QFT) = 30 and attack-bonus is 2(charge)+8(huge)+15(STR)+12(CL) = +37 for purposes of the bull-rush. I'd grant the tree another +4 for stability if it appears over level ground or ground of any angle with soil for roots to penetrate; -4 if it appears over water or suspended in air. If the tree's bull-rush check is insufficient to bulldoze the target completely out of the way, I'd rule that the tree grows around the "cubes" containing them (treat as DC22 Entangle + squeezing effect; liquid or gaseous creatures immune to entangling, but are squeezed). If the target is huge or larger in size and is a solid creature, then I'd rule that the tree merely grows laterally underneath the target if the tree fails the check. IOW, the tree should be extraordinarily effective against something like a harpy, but worthless versus a dragon. After it's initial bull-rush, the tree is stationary, defenseless, and vulnerable to attacks. Due to its porous nature, I'd rule that it provides no protection at all from a breath weapon or other spreading or burst AoE effect. Against an elder air-elemental (huge), I'd rule that the tree takes 1d12 rounds to destroy with slam and whirlwind attacks if it is rooted in soil, but is automatically blown over if not firmly rooted. (For the d12, I'm just taking the CL and making it a die -- it's easier than trying to figure out how many hitpoints and hardness the stupid thing has, and then rolling slam damage round after round.) Versus elemental's whirlwind, I'd rule that all the tree's leaves are blown away after 1d3 rounds, reducing the tree's concealment from total initially, to +7 after one round (if more rounds remain), and then only +4 thereafter (until the tree is totally destroyed). A blown-over tree falls in a direction of the Elemental's choice, and Entangles and squeezes anyone it falls upon as a cone-effect with its trunk square as the origin point; victims take damage equivalent to being full-attacked by the Elemental's slams (4d8+12 in this case). If the tree is destroyed incrementally (rather than blown) over, it becomes a denuded trunk 10' tall.
gomeztoo 03-27-07, 03:27 AM	I won't argue with this on your table when you are the DM, but I think that the rules are very clear: the tree can not appear if the space it appears in isn't clear, and it can't appear in mid-air. It is not a powerful token, for 400 gp it doesn't so much. I expect table variation, and some flexibility in its use would be nice, but you shoudl eb aware that making it a 30 strength bullrushing creature with entangling powers is not according to the RAW.