Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgan the Bold 02-01-06, 10:54 PM	I've been playing LG since the 591 adventures. Lately, I'm seeing way too much abuse of the polmorph type of spells (alter self, polmorpph, shapechange, etc.) as both player and DM. Many players polymorph into something granting awesome natural armor bonuses or titan like strength (Green Hag, Leonals, Pit Fiends, etc.) in an attempt to break the adventure. I can't recall anyone polymorphing for role playing purposes. Can we place the polmorph type spells on the limited list or better yet on the restricted list?
Arvagor 02-01-06, 11:08 PM	I would second this argument. There is too much debate and variation from one table to the next, even with the restrictions already in place in theLGCS, and the use of the official D&D FAQ as a rules source (and it's recent "clarifications") has only made things worse (IMO). I would argue that the Restricted list is the only real way to solve the problem, since a large number of spellcasters have favors that grant them access to spells on the Limited list. This will, of course, lead to the argument that "banning" polymorph makes druids overpowered, since they would need to retain their Wild Shape ability (they are a core class, so I think there would be a large amount of resistance from WotC -- if not outright denial of permission -- for the Circle to change the way that class functions)
Zalarian 02-01-06, 11:11 PM	Zian adventured with Morgan the Bold. Perhaps it is just an extension of being a LG retirement thing that he will never fully realize his full draconic heritage of being a 10th level dragon disciple. The only way he has to compensate is swift fly and alter self.
redgamer 02-01-06, 11:17 PM	Polymorph type spells certaintly are used alot and some of the more powerful PHB spells. They certaintly are not the most used spell (that probably goes to mage armor) and are only arguably the most powerful. As such they are unlikely to be banned. I know whenever I play my transmuter it is good consistent roleplaying when I cast spells such as polymorph. I wonder how you could roleplay polymorph other than that fact that any adventurering wizard would be smart enough to know how to make effective use of his spells.
amnuxoll 02-02-06, 11:52 AM	I have two PCs that use alter self for the natural armor capability and I have seen other players use polymorph to great (and overpowering) effect. So, I fully agree that they should be nerfed a bit. Unfortunately, I think that the solution of restricting the spells removes too much from the campaign. I offer three suggestions for fixing this in order from the one I like best to the one I like least: 1. I think the best solution (which, unfortunately, probably doesn't fit within the Circle's directive) is to limit the amount of increase you can get to natural armor and stats via polymorph chain spells. I think a cap of +4 to stats and +2 to natural armor is helpful without being silly. This solution has the added benefit of allowing the campaign to throw open the doors in terms of what creatures you could change shape into. 2. Restrict (or at least make limited) the available forms to an even smaller list. Remove the troglodyte and lizardfolk from alter self. Remove the top six offenders (particularly the hags) from polymorph. This works and fits within the Circle's philosophy but it's clunky and will garner the most complaints. 3. Require that PCs have encountered and defeated a particular creature before they can change into it. The DM must have noted it in the play notes of the AR. This doesn't really solve the problem, but it mitigates it quite a bit.
A'Talsen 02-02-06, 12:07 PM	The 3.5 change to polymorph, with its limited duration precludes the use of it in RP situations. It is highly likely to run out in the middle of such a use. Give that it is not an RP spell, it is therefor a combat spell (assuming the game basically has only those two states). Given that, the spell's purpose is to grant the physical qualities of a given creature, and hopefully those qualities are of benifit in combat - which it seems like you are saying they are. I believe that the LGCS restricts shape changing magic to creatures from the basic Monster Manual. That should be plenty of restriction to Polymorph, and the other shape-changing spells. Mciahel "Fish" Murphy I've been playing LG since the 591 adventures. Lately, I'm seeing way too much abuse of the polmorph type of spells (alter self, polmorpph, shapechange, etc.) as both player and DM. Many players polymorph into something granting awesome natural armor bonuses or titan like strength (Green Hag, Leonals, Pit Fiends, etc.) in an attempt to break the adventure. I can't recall anyone polymorphing for role playing purposes. Can we place the polmorph type spells on the limited list or better yet on the restricted list?
Reylance 02-02-06, 12:09 PM	I strongly disagree with the idea of restricting alter self and similar spells. They are essential to many fighter-wizard tank builds, and help keep fragile wizards alive. The recent ruling cleared up Polymorph Any Object, which was good, though not much of an issue with no characters higher than 15th level in the main campaign. Alter Self is as role-playing-oriented a spell as Mage Armor. You're saying, "Hello, I'm an adventurer with no desire to die."
chrispedersen 02-02-06, 12:22 PM	No way! First, in a bit of disclosure - My primary PC is a wizard. And I have never cast polymorph. And no one at any table has ever requested it. And I haven't cast alter self since 5th level or so. And fewer than 5 times even then. Personally as a mage I find my hitpoints to be so few, that I will never regard my AC to be an adequate compensation to find myself anywhere near the frontline. I find the idea of polymorph central to the idea of fantasy - whether it was merlyn's duel with morgana, or the handsome prince turned in to a frog, or simply the ability to fly as an eagle.. I think these are core components of fantasy and I think removing them for the sake of game balance is a poor choice. As others, I find that polymorph makes possible certain character types - the fighter wizard - that nerfing these spells would not allow. I would have no problem with a wizard having to spend 1-2 TU's per shape assumed. But also allow him to learn shapes not encountered on AR's. C
redgamer 02-02-06, 12:23 PM	1. I think the best solution (which, unfortunately, probably doesn't fit within the Circle's directive) is to limit the amount of increase you can get to natural armor and stats via polymorph chain spells. I think a cap of +4 to stats and +2 to natural armor is helpful without being silly. This solution has the added benefit of allowing the campaign to throw open the doors in terms of what creatures you could change shape into. Alter self does not give bonuses to stats and capping polymorph like that is not at all appropriate for a 9th level spell.
GreatEscape_13 02-02-06, 01:23 PM	I'm fortunate to live in Keoland. If a wizard uses alter self or polymorph to turn into something evil looking, and a peasant sees... we'll, it can be "burn him at the stake" time. So these spells are often used in dungeons, but not in PC vs. NPC party fights where the abuses can be extreme. Cheers, Andrew
Lomiat 02-02-06, 01:47 PM	No need to make changes to Polymorph type spells from LGCS 4.2. Why? 1) Shapechange is out of the main campaign. 2) Huge+ monsters are effectively out of the question (except, perhaps, later with centaurs), prohibiting many of the potentially abusive uses. 3) Monster Manual restriction. 4) As a combat spell, takes an action, or requires some way to pre-buff. During this action, no offensive capabilities whatsoever. 5) Most of the powerful options are Large size, which means most PCs' items go away unless they are also subject to a previous cast of Enlarge Person, which is another spell--another action, or another pre-buff. 6) Perfectly in line with other Benefit to Cost spells of their level. (2nd lvl spell: Alter Self = +6 Nat Armor, as Troglodyte, for 10min/lvl. Versus 1st lvl spell: Mage Armor = +4 armor bonus for hr./lvl)(4th level: Polymorph or Evard's Black Tentacles)(5th level: Baleful Polymorph or Feeblemind). Etc.
amnuxoll 02-02-06, 02:02 PM	No need to make changes to Polymorph type spells from LGCS 4.2. Why? 1) Shapechange is out of the main campaign. 2) Huge+ monsters are effectively out of the question (except, perhaps, later with centaurs), prohibiting many of the potentially abusive uses. 3) Monster Manual restriction. 4) As a combat spell, takes an action, or requires some way to pre-buff. During this action, no offensive capabilities whatsoever. 5) Most of the powerful options are Large size, which means most PCs' items go away unless they are also subject to a previous cast of Enlarge Person, which is another spell--another action, or another pre-buff. 6) Perfectly in line with other Benefit to Cost spells of their level. (2nd lvl spell: Alter Self = +6 Nat Armor, as Troglodyte, for 10min/lvl. Versus 1st lvl spell: Mage Armor = +4 armor bonus for hr./lvl)(4th level: Polymorph or Evard's Black Tentacles)(5th level: Baleful Polymorph or Feeblemind). Etc. 1) Yes, this is probably good. 2) Centaurs probably not a problem due to their 6 racial levels. 3) MM restriction is clearly inadequate given the abuses we've all seen. 4) Alter self is 10 min/level. I pre-buff with it almost every mod. 5) But not *all* of them are large size. I can't remember which hag it is that grants you the sick stats without taking away your armor. 6) I would agree if Alter Self didn't *stack* with mage armor. 3rd level wizard with 14 Dex + mage armor + alter self + shield = AC 26 (not counting possible ring of prot, small sized PC and amulet of nat armor). Even without shield (which is in in combat buff) it's still a 22 AC. There are plenty of 3rd level fighters that would (and do!) kill for an AC like that. I still say it's overpowered. But I do agree with previous poster that the polymorph chain is esential to the spirit of the game. What to do??
solbergb 02-02-06, 02:07 PM	The non-large monsters have inferior stats to most PC's (polymorph). Alter self usually requires a second spell, such as disguise self, if you want to use it in populated areas. The large monsters trash your magic items. The spells are useful but not crazy overpowered. Any change to polymorph has a profound effect on druids. The MM-only limit is sufficient. None of the really broken things (eg, War Trolls) are in there. The one thing I would like to see is some LGCS thing overruling the stupid FAQ entry implying humans lose feats/skill points when polymorphed...and worse nonhumans GAIN feats/skill points when polymorphed (or heck even alter-selfed) into a human.
amnuxoll 02-02-06, 03:43 PM	The non-large monsters have inferior stats to most PC's (polymorph). Alter self usually requires a second spell, such as disguise self, if you want to use it in populated areas. Even if you don't have the cheap and easy-to-acquire hat of disguise, any caster with access to alter self already has access to disguise self. And it lasts an hour per level, no? Any change to polymorph has a profound effect on druids. Well I think "profound" is a little extreme but this is a valid point. That said, I don't see it affecting druids much at all and what affect it might have would probably be game balancing. The MM-only limit is sufficient. None of the really broken things (eg, War Trolls) are in there. This is like saying that chemical weapons are ok because we have the nukes in check! =) :AMN:
Arvagor 02-02-06, 04:28 PM	Well I think "profound" is a little extreme but this is a valid point. That said, I don't see it affecting druids much at all and what affect it might have would probably be game balancing. Agreed. Sure, the rules say that Wild Shape is like polymorph "except as noted", but that's kinda like saying a mine cart is like a Radio Flyer red wagon -- they both have 4 wheels, can carry things in them, and can roll, but that's about the similarity. Wild Shape has some very specific restrictions that limit how much abuse (if any) can be made out of it; and with the campaign retirement level currently set at 16th, a druid can really only wild shape into a Huge creature (or plant) for one level's worth of play (gains Huge at Druid 15) Besides, everyone knows Merlin was a druid anyways, so it's only natural that he should be able to change shape ;)
solbergb 02-02-06, 06:33 PM	Even if you don't have the cheap and easy-to-acquire hat of disguise, any caster with access to alter self already has access to disguise self. And it lasts an hour per level, no? :AMN: No. It lasts 10 minutes per level and has a trivial will save to defeat (the hat especially). It also doesn't mask sound or smell. Half the commoners who bump into you in a crowd will suddenly see a troglodyte. It takes resources to compensate for, and/or access and/or a crafting feat.
JohnduBois 02-02-06, 10:26 PM	Alter Self doesn't create a smell. Also, as someone playing a combat bard, I'm going to point out that Troglodyte is just silly. It's not just the +6 natural armor, although that is also delicious. It's the two extra attacks a round, especially since Alter Self lets you grab racial bonus feats like Multiattack. I use Alter Self literally every adventure, and I've only twice turned into something other than a Troglodyte. There also comes a point when you look around at an APL 10 table and three different PC's with three completely different class progressions have cast the exact same spell for the exact same purpose for the third module in a row, and think, "Isn't there something wrong with this?"
Objulen 02-02-06, 11:25 PM	Most of the nasty, unbalanced forms are taken care of with the restrictions on Polymorph, and the fact that the Master of Many Forms no longer has Magical Beasts on its list -- the Remohaz and 12-headed Hydra are two major culprits, but generally anything with "Swallow Whole" causes problems. There are still some that the MoMF can use, but not many. There are a few that grant nice bonuses, but I'm honestly not all that impressed. +11 NA is nice, but the only thing you need to mitigate this is rule that certain items are always absorbed when polymorphed, so it doesn't become too powerful. The Anis Hag grants nice protection, but it doesn't have any really powerful attacks that anyone can use, and if you look at it, it's not the norm. Remember that you can't become a Construct, Undead, Plant, or Outsider (i.e. Leonals) until lvl 15 at the earliest, with Polymorph Any Object, and that creatures at 17+ HD, which includes Pit Fiends, falls under Shapechange and high level play, which makes it an entirely different ball game from the standard modules, I'd imagine. If you want to talk about cheese, however, then use Tenser's Transformation with Polymorph. That's some cheese. But you didn't hear it from me. If the form can't cast spells normally, use Delay Spell with Polymorph. The thing I find most ammusing about this situation is the banning of the Master Transmogrifist, who, if you look at, has less potential to abuse Polymorph because of its lack of 4 spell levels -- the nastest stuff right now comes from the fact that you can cast spells while in most large forms, and the later Polymorph-type spells (Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange), both of which are limited for the Master Transmogrifist, along with the power of Huge+ Magic Beasts. It also requires Practiced Spellcaster to use Polymorph (which is limited by caster level) to its fullest ability. That being said, Alter Self and Polymorph are both inexpensive ways to get rather nice bonuses for yourself without giving much, if anything, up. They are, perhaps, under cost. As it is, the only real way to fix it is to ban the spell, but I don't see anyone going for this. The other option is to revamp the system to be more like psionics, where you pick a speciality, and each speciality gets some spells that the others do not (no other bonuses or penalties, including the normal ones). So only transmuters would get Polymorph, only Necros would get Finger of Death, etc. Another option might be to fold Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object into the same spell, and have it scale spell slots depending on the HD of the form you are assuming (though that would require editing the MT, for NPC purposes, anyway).
The_Voice_Of_Reason 02-02-06, 11:46 PM	1) 6) I would agree if Alter Self didn't *stack* with mage armor. 3rd level wizard with 14 Dex + mage armor + alter self + shield = AC 26 (not counting possible ring of prot, small sized PC and amulet of nat armor). Even without shield (which is an in combat buff) it's still a 22 AC. There are plenty of 3rd level fighters that would (and do!) kill for an AC like that. I still say it's overpowered. But I do agree with previous poster that the polymorph chain is esential to the spirit of the game. What to do?? I agree that Alterself is exceptionally powerful... probably the best of the 2nd level arcane spells, when you consider that it can give you racial feats and skill-bonuses, natural weapons, water breathing etc. Nevertheless, I don't consider it overpowered. The 3rd level wizard in your example has used about one third of his spells per day to acheive an excellent AC... something that has no effect on a combat until he is targeted with a non-touch attack. For all that, I should disclose that I play wizards that routinely use exactly these spells to acheive a strong AC. However, in my experience, by the time you have the spell-slots to spare to make it work, your 6th-8th level. My general equation is a front line fighter should have an AC of atleast APL+17. So AC=26 at APL=8 is not that unreasonable. The level caps have dealt with the most powerful spells in the polymorph chain: Shapechange and Polymorph any Object (only available to 15th level wizards who are straight casters). I think the remaining spells in the chain are powerful, but subject to the restrictions they're already under, reasonable balanced... especially if the divine casters get Master of Many Forms (which makes Polymorph look like Shrink Object in comparison). --My 2 CP Michael Montague
Saracen 02-03-06, 12:51 PM	Full Disclosure: I play a 9th level Mage (who rarely uses Poly, first time was his last adventure) and a Drd5/Master of Many Forms4/Warshaper1. I use Improved Wildshape for role-playing purposes all the time. Since my PC can become Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, and Fey for 9 hours at a stretch, 5 times a day, I can use humanoid forms to interact with NPCs as something other than I am. I recently used a Fey form to negociate our way through an encounter that would otherwise have resulted in needless combat. On to more specific issues: Shapechange is no longer a PC spell at 9th level and the level cap for retiring is now 16th. This is the spell that had people up in arms, it is broken as are most 9th level spells. Restricting the Poly Chain is out of the question. It is an essential part of the D&D magic system. Making it Limited just makes the problem smaller, but now also makes it unequal. In my region it would appear quickly in play, other regions might be stingier. This makes it seem even more unfair (which I dispute is a problem in the first place). We have already nerfed it several times in the LGCS and without campaign docs we cannot use forms outside the MM (so no War Troll for you). Granted there are problems with the spell chain when you base access to HD instead of CR like Summon Monster. Personally, with the new level cap, I don't think we are going to see the level of grossness that has go on before. Bryan Blumklotz
Objulen 02-03-06, 04:47 PM	Shapechange is no longer a PC spell at 9th level and the level cap for retiring is now 16th. This is the spell that had people up in arms, it is broken as are most 9th level spells. Does that include high level play, or is that just a general statement about the fact that you have to be in high level play to get Shapechange?
fan_of_greyhawk 02-03-06, 06:04 PM	I've been playing LG since the 591 adventures. Lately, I'm seeing way too much abuse of the polmorph type of spells (alter self, polmorpph, shapechange, etc.) as both player and DM. Many players polymorph into something granting awesome natural armor bonuses or titan like strength (Green Hag, Leonals, Pit Fiends, etc.) in an attempt to break the adventure. I can't recall anyone polymorphing for role playing purposes. Can we place the polmorph type spells on the limited list or better yet on the restricted list? Please note that Leonals and Pit Fiends are NOT LEGAL for the polymorph spell, which does not allow for the Outsider type. fan_of_greyhawk
Britt 02-03-06, 06:08 PM	But they were legal for /shapechange/ and you got their pounce ability. As the recipient of one of those spells, I'm glad it can't be cast anymore.
Munkwunk 02-03-06, 11:13 PM	"Isn't there something wrong with this?" Sure there is. And, IMO, that "something" is lack of creativity on the player's part, and a desire to "Win D&D". People will always find some way to munchkin their characters if that's what they want to do; it's nobody else's place to tell them "that's too powerful, you simply can't do that". A simple solution to polymorph-type spells is to simply choose not to cast them yourself. If other players want to use it, what's the big deal? Either they gain satisfaction from "winning" or they have yet another ho-hum victory. What ever. As long as everyone's having fun, it's okay in my book. Now, if feeling overshadowed by the Polymorph King causes you grief, I'd suggest either taking to them about the problem or simply sit back and let them have their fun. Many "munchkin'-type players are alright if you just humour them now and again. When the "next big thing" comes along, they'll switch to that, and Polymorph won't be such a big deal anymore. Banning spells and feats left-and-right isn't the wayt o solve problems here. Learning to get along with others -- despite their "overpowered" and "munchkin" tendancies -- is something that we could all use to learn. That'll make things enjoyable for everyone without having to feel restricted all the time.
Objulen 02-03-06, 11:42 PM	Sure there is. And, IMO, that "something" is lack of creativity on the player's part, and a desire to "Win D&D". People will always find some way to munchkin their characters if that's what they want to do; it's nobody else's place to tell them "that's too powerful, you simply can't do that". Given that the modular nature of LG lends it a distinct MMO feeling, tactical play comes to the fore, so it's not surprising that this mentality exists.
Ariel23 02-03-06, 11:44 PM	I'm not sure Alter Self is quite as bad as Polymorph. I wholeheartedly second polymorph being limited in some fashion. Alter Self generally can only give you some AC and modes of travel as it is limited to 5 HD monsters. Also you can only Alter to something of your own type. Polymorph is also a lot more annoying to adjudicate...it slows the whole game down.
Saracen 02-04-06, 12:33 AM	Does that include high level play, or is that just a general statement about the fact that you have to be in high level play to get Shapechange? Here is the thing... 9th level spells are broken. Period. They are ment to be broken when you are playing adventures written for their level, you need them to survive. As a friend pointed out to me, it gets sick and wrong when someone is playing a 17th level mage and plays down to APL 14... Shapechange breaks the mod, almost every time. In high level play it will be expected, the APL structure will start with players that can cast it, or are one level away from casting it. Most NPC mages that the party will face can cast it. So, it isn't a big deal. Like I said, Shapechange ceases to be an issue now that you retire at 16th level. Bryan Blumklotz
fan_of_greyhawk 02-04-06, 11:52 AM	Alter Self doesn't create a smell. Also, as someone playing a combat bard, I'm going to point out that Troglodyte is just silly. It's not just the +6 natural armor, although that is also delicious. It's the two extra attacks a round, especially since Alter Self lets you grab racial bonus feats like Multiattack. I use Alter Self literally every adventure, and I've only twice turned into something other than a Troglodyte. There also comes a point when you look around at an APL 10 table and three different PC's with three completely different class progressions have cast the exact same spell for the exact same purpose for the third module in a row, and think, "Isn't there something wrong with this?" Excerpt from the Alter Self Spell: a body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks than normal. The multiattack feat has a prerequisite of 3 or more natural attacks (not 3 or more limbs!!) . As a DM, I would state that you do not get the multiattack feat because you do not have the 3 required attacks. So unless your character is high level enough (full attack = +11/+6/+1) you do not get multiattack! This is surely arguable, but this way of interpreting Alter Self seems much more balanced.... fan_of_greyhawk
JohnduBois 02-04-06, 12:12 PM	You are misinterpreting the spell text. The form of a troglodyte does not grant extra limbs - you still have two. It grants you natural weapons, which are explicity granted by the sentence preceding your excerpt, and racial bonus feats, explicitly granted by the same sentence. It is true that you fail to benefit from a feat such as Multiattack if you do not meet the prerequisites. However, Troglodytes have three natural attacks (two claws and a bite), so you have no rules-based reason to deny PC's who Alter Self into a Troglodyte the feat unless they somehow lose an arm.
Madfox11 02-04-06, 01:16 PM	And people are actually worried about the natural attacks of a troglodyte? They deal 1d4 damage. Fighter-wizards deal more damage with their normal weapons, especially if they have power attack, and wizards have better things to do then to use their claws.
Britt 02-04-06, 01:22 PM	You can mix manufactured and natural weapons though, so that you effectively gain extra attacks during your full attack action.
Madfox11 02-04-06, 01:41 PM	I know - though most likely we are just talking about the bite, because the fighter types either use a sword and board build or a 2H weapon. It is still only measily damage, and as a benefit for alter self it pales in comparison to +6 natural armour, 30 ft. movement for the dwarves or the swim movement (and I used it in the past several times for that).
Britt 02-04-06, 03:14 PM	True, it probably is only the bite, but since most of my damage before I retired was STR, PA, and buffs, the bite still adds quite a bit of damage in a round. I don't think it's anywhere close to the broken end of the scale though :)
Objulen 02-04-06, 05:50 PM	Here is the thing... 9th level spells are broken. Period. They are ment to be broken when you are playing adventures written for their level, you need them to survive. As a friend pointed out to me, it gets sick and wrong when someone is playing a 17th level mage and plays down to APL 14... Shapechange breaks the mod, almost every time. In high level play it will be expected, the APL structure will start with players that can cast it, or are one level away from casting it. Most NPC mages that the party will face can cast it. So, it isn't a big deal. Like I said, Shapechange ceases to be an issue now that you retire at 16th level. Bryan Blumklotz Very true point about 9th level spells. Heck, even 8th level spells would probably break a module at APL 14.
Objulen 02-04-06, 05:52 PM	Remeber, also, that when Polymorphed into a different form, when you use that form's natural attacks, you only get your full BAB on the first ones listed (generally 2 claws). The rest are considered secondary attacks, and take either a -5 attack roll penalty or a -2 attack roll penalty, depending on racial feats. Also, getting many attacks isn't broken if you aren't doing the damage that a fighter of equal or close level can do, which, given how most such attacks are weak and have penalties to their attacks rolls, is likely. Of course, that changes depending on the STR or DEX of the target (and your weapon finesse), but I've found that unless other buffs are applied (buffs that could just as easily be applied to fighters), it isn't a big deal. I honestly don't see why it's an incredible issue. The broken forms have been banned for Polymorph, and as you go up in level and don't have to use your entire highest level spell slots, there are spells that can give equal or better attack bonuses, or otherwise cause better effects. Polymorph is definantly going to end up being a better than average 4th level spell, but there's not a whole lot you can do about it without altering the spell in some fundamental way, which I don't see happening.