Alternate class abilities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate class abilities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkGoldfish
05-25-07, 08:28 PM I find myself asking, what alternate class abilities are available in living greyhawk? I'm especialy interested in the Hexblade's alternate companion option from PHBII but there are a lot of other alternatives...does anyone have a list of what's in and what's out?
Eric Anondson
05-25-07, 08:29 PM does anyone have a list of what's in and what's out?Nothing, until you get access.
Hariman
05-25-07, 09:19 PM Immediate Magic is OUT. It's definitely overpowered.

All of the others require access of some sort.
Timlagor
05-26-07, 04:59 AM The Hexblade's ability that you mention is massively better than the base ability which significantly lowers the chances of getting it ..Hexblade's are weak enough that it might seem justified but iirc it's a 1st level ability and provides a free flanker for all situations making it arguably rather too nice a dip for Rogues.

I can't see anyone in their right mind letting Barbarians swap their speed for Pounce either.
Jay_Ibero_911
05-26-07, 05:27 PM The Hexblade's ability that you mention is massively better than the base ability which significantly lowers the chances of getting it ..Hexblade's are weak enough that it might seem justified but iirc it's a 1st level ability and provides a free flanker for all situations making it arguably rather too nice a dip for Rogues.

I can't see anyone in their right mind letting Barbarians swap their speed for Pounce either.

Looks like you completely mis-remembered the alternate hexblade ability. They trade the familiar for a dark companion, which they don't get until 4th level. It is an insubstantial thing, cannot provide flanking, but applies a -2 penalty to saves and AC of all enemies adjacent to it. Arguably more powerful than the bonuses a familiar provides, but it also does not have the versatility a familiar can provide.
Hariman
05-28-07, 12:15 AM Looks like you completely mis-remembered the alternate hexblade ability. They trade the familiar for a dark companion, which they don't get until 4th level. It is an insubstantial thing, cannot provide flanking, but applies a -2 penalty to saves and AC of all enemies adjacent to it. Arguably more powerful than the bonuses a familiar provides, but it also does not have the versatility a familiar can provide.

It is also subject to spell resistance. It's a great alternate ability, but it never scales up to greater power (Immediate Magic I'm looking at you!) and it has a range of 120 feet.

It's worth taking if you don't want a familiar, but you can still get some good use out of a familiar. Especially with a hexblade that takes the Improved Familiar feat.

I have a first level Hexblade that will be my Greyhawk Ruins character, and He'll be taking Improved Familiar. If I get access to Dark Companion, it will be an extremely hard choice to make between a Hippogriff and the Dark Companion.
Jay_Ibero_911
05-28-07, 11:44 AM It is also subject to spell resistance. It's a great alternate ability, but it never scales up to greater power (Immediate Magic I'm looking at you!) and it has a range of 120 feet.

It's worth taking if you don't want a familiar, but you can still get some good use out of a familiar. Especially with a hexblade that takes the Improved Familiar feat.

I have a first level Hexblade that will be my Greyhawk Ruins character, and He'll be taking Improved Familiar. If I get access to Dark Companion, it will be an extremely hard choice to make between a Hippogriff and the Dark Companion.

It's actually not subject to spell resistance, and there's no save against it's penalty either. It's only vulnerable to being dispelled or supressed by an anti-magic field.
DarkGoldfish
05-30-07, 02:28 AM Wow, the improved familiar option really does seem tempting...I'm looking at this whole blink dog thing with eager eyes (good HP + blink + augmented familiar for extra HP and Damage resistance) that thing is a tough little cookie. And I guess it's smart enough that you could command it to always ready an action and teleport to the other side of your oponent as you charge them. Only problem is that you have to make it to level 6 ;)
-also the improved familiar gets all your ranks in intimidate meaning they could theoreticaly assist you: by snarling!...which is really cool for roleplaying.
-and they come with the track feat!
Hariman
05-31-07, 07:25 PM Wow, the improved familiar option really does seem tempting...I'm looking at this whole blink dog thing with eager eyes (good HP + blink + augmented familiar for extra HP and Damage resistance) that thing is a tough little cookie. And I guess it's smart enough that you could command it to always ready an action and teleport to the other side of your oponent as you charge them. Only problem is that you have to make it to level 6 ;)
-also the improved familiar gets all your ranks in intimidate meaning they could theoreticaly assist you: by snarling!...which is really cool for roleplaying.
-and they come with the track feat!

Blink dog VS Hippogriff...

That's actually a tough choice. The hippogriff adds a LOT by being able to fly, being a decent mount, (Especially for casters/archers.) BUT, the blink dog offers Track, the ability to teleport/blink, and doesn't need to worry about being too large to go somewhere. Both get stronger with the familiar enhancing buffs that the hexblade gets.

The Dark Companion is probably better for a ranged character, although it will be helpful to all party members who attack vs an enemy's AC/Saves.
Madfox11
06-01-07, 04:00 AM Like others have said, access is granted through ARs and possibly other campaign documentation (MOs).

One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement (I was actually tempted once to do do so through two feats with my barbarian/bard - a blink dog familiar just so fitted his concept ;)).

Mind you, this fact does not mean that some alternate class abilities are just too good to be true. These are (being) closed by the Circle. So if you hope for the Pounce ability for the barbarian from the Complete Champion, you are going to be dissapointed ;)
JamesMaissen
06-01-07, 01:13 PM One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities.

Why not open up the ones that are deemed worthy? These seem like basic options for characters rather than a random spell or item.

-James
Sieylianna
06-01-07, 05:56 PM I think it's kind of a waste to allow the alternate class abilities. The Circle will have to review them to determine which ones are too powerful to allow and no one is going to take the weakest ones.

The biggest problem is that you have no means of getting access for the PC who wants it. If you're going to allow variants to fundamental class abilities, you really should make it core access, so everyone can benefit.

Ed
Hariman
06-01-07, 06:03 PM I think it's kind of a waste to allow the alternate class abilities. The Circle will have to review them to determine which ones are too powerful to allow and no one is going to take the weakest ones.

The biggest problem is that you have no means of getting access for the PC who wants it. If you're going to allow variants to fundamental class abilities, you really should make it core access, so everyone can benefit.

Ed

Providing access such as "Any alternate class ability in the PHB2 EXCEPT x, y and z" in multiple mods in different storylines would work. Metaorg access would work too, but that is much more dependent on each triad/region.

Retraining helps, as you can swap out a class ability if you need to.

Maybe we'll see more access to alternate abilities in future mods. And hopefully we'll see many alternate abilities open up either via Dispel Confusions or via the next LGCS.
Madfox11
06-04-07, 04:31 AM Metaorganizations. Retraining.
Cynric
06-04-07, 05:30 AM Metaorganizations. Retraining.

Come to Ratik in six months. We should have most of our meta-orgs done by then and some of the alternate abilitiesa are getting in.
amnuxoll
06-04-07, 11:37 AM One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement

Sharing insights like this from what the WotC developers have said or the decisions the Circle have made makes a big difference for me. Thanks.

:AMN:
Hariman
06-04-07, 11:09 PM Like others have said, access is granted through ARs and possibly other campaign documentation (MOs).

One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement (I was actually tempted once to do do so through two feats with my barbarian/bard - a blink dog familiar just so fitted his concept ;)).

Mind you, this fact does not mean that some alternate class abilities are just too good to be true. These are (being) closed by the Circle. So if you hope for the Pounce ability for the barbarian from the Complete Champion, you are going to be dissapointed ;)

I'm happy/sad that some of the Alternate Class Abilities are being Closed.

While I'd love to be able to teleport as an immediate action with my conjurer, it's too darn good. But even the 2 times a day that I would have had would have been HUGE. Immediate Magic would make sense if it cost a wizard Scribe Scroll/wizard bonus feats. But a familiar is often viewed as a burden.

That being said again... I like a lot of the new class abilities. They're fun and add variety to an otherwise static set of class features. I just hope that they become easier to access.
magebeast
06-05-07, 12:24 AM The BK metaorgs just got a TON of alternate class features as perks.

The conjurer one is in one or two of them, I think.
Hariman
06-05-07, 01:08 AM The BK metaorgs just got a TON of alternate class features as perks.

The conjurer one is in one or two of them, I think.

Figures that I'm a Keolander. At least I've got bragging rights for that. I wonder if any of the Keoland Metaorgs have updated...
_metz_
06-05-07, 04:05 AM As far as I can tell from Keoland, their Meta documents just disallow stuff rather then Give out much...

:P

(just being cheeky)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkGoldfish 05-25-07, 08:28 PM	I find myself asking, what alternate class abilities are available in living greyhawk? I'm especialy interested in the Hexblade's alternate companion option from PHBII but there are a lot of other alternatives...does anyone have a list of what's in and what's out?
Eric Anondson 05-25-07, 08:29 PM	does anyone have a list of what's in and what's out?Nothing, until you get access.
Hariman 05-25-07, 09:19 PM	Immediate Magic is OUT. It's definitely overpowered. All of the others require access of some sort.
Timlagor 05-26-07, 04:59 AM	The Hexblade's ability that you mention is massively better than the base ability which significantly lowers the chances of getting it ..Hexblade's are weak enough that it might seem justified but iirc it's a 1st level ability and provides a free flanker for all situations making it arguably rather too nice a dip for Rogues. I can't see anyone in their right mind letting Barbarians swap their speed for Pounce either.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-26-07, 05:27 PM	The Hexblade's ability that you mention is massively better than the base ability which significantly lowers the chances of getting it ..Hexblade's are weak enough that it might seem justified but iirc it's a 1st level ability and provides a free flanker for all situations making it arguably rather too nice a dip for Rogues. I can't see anyone in their right mind letting Barbarians swap their speed for Pounce either. Looks like you completely mis-remembered the alternate hexblade ability. They trade the familiar for a dark companion, which they don't get until 4th level. It is an insubstantial thing, cannot provide flanking, but applies a -2 penalty to saves and AC of all enemies adjacent to it. Arguably more powerful than the bonuses a familiar provides, but it also does not have the versatility a familiar can provide.
Hariman 05-28-07, 12:15 AM	Looks like you completely mis-remembered the alternate hexblade ability. They trade the familiar for a dark companion, which they don't get until 4th level. It is an insubstantial thing, cannot provide flanking, but applies a -2 penalty to saves and AC of all enemies adjacent to it. Arguably more powerful than the bonuses a familiar provides, but it also does not have the versatility a familiar can provide. It is also subject to spell resistance. It's a great alternate ability, but it never scales up to greater power (Immediate Magic I'm looking at you!) and it has a range of 120 feet. It's worth taking if you don't want a familiar, but you can still get some good use out of a familiar. Especially with a hexblade that takes the Improved Familiar feat. I have a first level Hexblade that will be my Greyhawk Ruins character, and He'll be taking Improved Familiar. If I get access to Dark Companion, it will be an extremely hard choice to make between a Hippogriff and the Dark Companion.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-28-07, 11:44 AM	It is also subject to spell resistance. It's a great alternate ability, but it never scales up to greater power (Immediate Magic I'm looking at you!) and it has a range of 120 feet. It's worth taking if you don't want a familiar, but you can still get some good use out of a familiar. Especially with a hexblade that takes the Improved Familiar feat. I have a first level Hexblade that will be my Greyhawk Ruins character, and He'll be taking Improved Familiar. If I get access to Dark Companion, it will be an extremely hard choice to make between a Hippogriff and the Dark Companion. It's actually not subject to spell resistance, and there's no save against it's penalty either. It's only vulnerable to being dispelled or supressed by an anti-magic field.
DarkGoldfish 05-30-07, 02:28 AM	Wow, the improved familiar option really does seem tempting...I'm looking at this whole blink dog thing with eager eyes (good HP + blink + augmented familiar for extra HP and Damage resistance) that thing is a tough little cookie. And I guess it's smart enough that you could command it to always ready an action and teleport to the other side of your oponent as you charge them. Only problem is that you have to make it to level 6 ;) -also the improved familiar gets all your ranks in intimidate meaning they could theoreticaly assist you: by snarling!...which is really cool for roleplaying. -and they come with the track feat!
Hariman 05-31-07, 07:25 PM	Wow, the improved familiar option really does seem tempting...I'm looking at this whole blink dog thing with eager eyes (good HP + blink + augmented familiar for extra HP and Damage resistance) that thing is a tough little cookie. And I guess it's smart enough that you could command it to always ready an action and teleport to the other side of your oponent as you charge them. Only problem is that you have to make it to level 6 ;) -also the improved familiar gets all your ranks in intimidate meaning they could theoreticaly assist you: by snarling!...which is really cool for roleplaying. -and they come with the track feat! Blink dog VS Hippogriff... That's actually a tough choice. The hippogriff adds a LOT by being able to fly, being a decent mount, (Especially for casters/archers.) BUT, the blink dog offers Track, the ability to teleport/blink, and doesn't need to worry about being too large to go somewhere. Both get stronger with the familiar enhancing buffs that the hexblade gets. The Dark Companion is probably better for a ranged character, although it will be helpful to all party members who attack vs an enemy's AC/Saves.
Madfox11 06-01-07, 04:00 AM	Like others have said, access is granted through ARs and possibly other campaign documentation (MOs). One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement (I was actually tempted once to do do so through two feats with my barbarian/bard - a blink dog familiar just so fitted his concept ;)). Mind you, this fact does not mean that some alternate class abilities are just too good to be true. These are (being) closed by the Circle. So if you hope for the Pounce ability for the barbarian from the Complete Champion, you are going to be dissapointed ;)
JamesMaissen 06-01-07, 01:13 PM	One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. Why not open up the ones that are deemed worthy? These seem like basic options for characters rather than a random spell or item. -James
Sieylianna 06-01-07, 05:56 PM	I think it's kind of a waste to allow the alternate class abilities. The Circle will have to review them to determine which ones are too powerful to allow and no one is going to take the weakest ones. The biggest problem is that you have no means of getting access for the PC who wants it. If you're going to allow variants to fundamental class abilities, you really should make it core access, so everyone can benefit. Ed
Hariman 06-01-07, 06:03 PM	I think it's kind of a waste to allow the alternate class abilities. The Circle will have to review them to determine which ones are too powerful to allow and no one is going to take the weakest ones. The biggest problem is that you have no means of getting access for the PC who wants it. If you're going to allow variants to fundamental class abilities, you really should make it core access, so everyone can benefit. Ed Providing access such as "Any alternate class ability in the PHB2 EXCEPT x, y and z" in multiple mods in different storylines would work. Metaorg access would work too, but that is much more dependent on each triad/region. Retraining helps, as you can swap out a class ability if you need to. Maybe we'll see more access to alternate abilities in future mods. And hopefully we'll see many alternate abilities open up either via Dispel Confusions or via the next LGCS.
Madfox11 06-04-07, 04:31 AM	Metaorganizations. Retraining.
Cynric 06-04-07, 05:30 AM	Metaorganizations. Retraining. Come to Ratik in six months. We should have most of our meta-orgs done by then and some of the alternate abilitiesa are getting in.
amnuxoll 06-04-07, 11:37 AM	One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement Sharing insights like this from what the WotC developers have said or the decisions the Circle have made makes a big difference for me. Thanks. :AMN:
Hariman 06-04-07, 11:09 PM	Like others have said, access is granted through ARs and possibly other campaign documentation (MOs). One thing to keep in mind when discussing the power of alternate class abilities is NOT to compare it to the original class abilities. When the PHBII was released the Circle had a discussion about them with the designers, and they told us that one of the reasons why they came with these abilities was to deal with weak class abilities. For example, the ranger's animal companion is really weak, and hence Distracting Shot looks really good. What you need to do to determine balance is to decide whether the ability is disbalanced compared to other abilities gained at a particular level in other classes. For example, a wizard can take a blink dog as familiar with 1 feat and a specific BAB requirement (I was actually tempted once to do do so through two feats with my barbarian/bard - a blink dog familiar just so fitted his concept ;)). Mind you, this fact does not mean that some alternate class abilities are just too good to be true. These are (being) closed by the Circle. So if you hope for the Pounce ability for the barbarian from the Complete Champion, you are going to be dissapointed ;) I'm happy/sad that some of the Alternate Class Abilities are being Closed. While I'd love to be able to teleport as an immediate action with my conjurer, it's too darn good. But even the 2 times a day that I would have had would have been HUGE. Immediate Magic would make sense if it cost a wizard Scribe Scroll/wizard bonus feats. But a familiar is often viewed as a burden. That being said again... I like a lot of the new class abilities. They're fun and add variety to an otherwise static set of class features. I just hope that they become easier to access.
magebeast 06-05-07, 12:24 AM	The BK metaorgs just got a TON of alternate class features as perks. The conjurer one is in one or two of them, I think.
Hariman 06-05-07, 01:08 AM	The BK metaorgs just got a TON of alternate class features as perks. The conjurer one is in one or two of them, I think. Figures that I'm a Keolander. At least I've got bragging rights for that. I wonder if any of the Keoland Metaorgs have updated...
_metz_ 06-05-07, 04:05 AM	As far as I can tell from Keoland, their Meta documents just disallow stuff rather then Give out much... :P (just being cheeky)