Animal Companions with Power Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal Companions with Power Attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
01-16-07, 03:30 PM How precisely can a player control that aspect of their animal companion? I know the easiest answer is to just allow complete control, but this just doesn't sit quite right with me. What are some DM's opinions on the matter?
kjenks
01-16-07, 04:41 PM I suspect that you're going to run into a lot of variations on what different judges think.

Some judges say that an animal can use Power Attack reasonably well, others might say that an animal will always Power Attack for full BAB, others might say that an animal isn't smart enough to figure it all out and will never use the Power Attack feat.

The Handle Animal skill might be construed to mean that you could Push your animal companion to use its Power Attack feat, but it's hard to figure out how you'd communicate what number to use.

I can picture it this way:

Druid: "Strike, Simba! But not too hard. And don't go easy on him. Just Power Attack for 3 this time to maximize the damage potential against this guy's apparent armor class, based on a probabalistic assessment of past combat interactions, using the d20 rolls we've seen so far! Strike!"

Simba: "Huh?"

Personally, I would avoid giving an animal companion the Power Attack feat. There are lots of other feats that will always work for you. Try these other, non-controversial feats to improve your animal's melee combat effectiveness:

Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Armor Proficiency
Athletic
Blind-Fight
Combat Reflexes
Dash (CW)
Diehard
Dive for Cover (CAd)
Dodge
Endurance
Eyes in the Back of Your Head (CW)
Fleet of Foot (CW)
Great Fortitude
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (RS)
Hear the Unseen (CAd)
Heavy Armor Optimization (RS)
Hold the Line (CW)
Hover (MM)
Improved Critical
Improved Flight (CAd)
Improved Natural Armor (MM)
Improved Natural Attack (MM)
Improved Toughness (CW)
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mobility
Multiattack (MM)
Open Minded (CAd)
Prone Attack (CW)
Run
Skill Focus
Spring Attack
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Tunnel Fighting (RS)
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Wingover (MM)

Lightning Reflexes + Dive for Cover is great for a critter with evasion. And if you're gonna take Dive for Cover, Prone Attack is nice.

Run + Fleet of Foot is great for a mount, especially if you charge a lot.

Open Minded + Skill Focus can give a big boost to a specific skill. Lotsa fun with Tumble, which is a cross-class skill for most critters. Acrobatic + Skill Focus (Tumble) could work even better.

Hear the Unseen: Listen is a class skill for many animals and they have a decent Wisdom. Works well with Blind-Fight.
Jay_Ibero_911
01-16-07, 05:07 PM You know it's funny, but it doesn't seem that any of the animals a druid can get as an animal companion come with power attack anyway. I could have sworn there were a few animals that came with it...Didn't really want to have my animal companion take it anyway...just a wierd situation that was bugging me...
kenobi65
01-16-07, 05:26 PM You know it's funny, but it doesn't seem that any of the animals a druid can get as an animal companion come with power attack anyway.

Bear in mind that when your animal companion reaches 3HD, he gets a new feat (which he'll do when your druid reaches 3rd level). He could certainly take it then, though, as Ken points out, there are a lot of other useful feats that would provoke less table variation.
Jay_Ibero_911
01-16-07, 05:47 PM Bear in mind that when your animal companion reaches 3HD, he gets a new feat (which he'll do when your druid reaches 3rd level). He could certainly take it then, though, as Ken points out, there are a lot of other useful feats that would provoke less table variation.

I know that an animal companion COULD take with the extra feats gained with advancement, I'm just saying that the fact that no MM animals already have it says to me that they probably are not intended to use it...
_m_
01-16-07, 07:13 PM I know that an animal companion COULD take with the extra feats gained with advancement, I'm just saying that the fact that no MM animals already have it says to me that they probably are not intended to use it...

there are some animals that would have enough hunting knowledge to know inately when to use what skills.

for example, a big angry wolf would instinctively know how, where, and how hard to strike. hes a hunter, its what he does.

meanwhile, a giant ape is prbably going to just power attack the mc'crap out of things anyway.
Mithreinmaethor
01-16-07, 07:25 PM Pay attention to the following threads:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070109a

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070116a

I have a feeling some of these questions will be answered and alot more will be asked. But its been good so far.
RedKnightofKet
01-16-07, 07:31 PM I always explain it to my DM that my animal companion (if it has PA, of course) usually starts out with going for full, then reducing it step-by-step if it missed. Once it has a range figured out, it sticks with that for the particular opponent.

there are some animals that would have enough hunting knowledge to know inately when to use what skills.

for example, a big angry wolf would instinctively know how, where, and how hard to strike. hes a hunter, its what he does.

meanwhile, a giant ape is prbably going to just power attack the mc'crap out of things anyway.
cycloptic_squirrel
01-16-07, 08:40 PM Try these other, non-controversial feats to improve your animal's melee combat effectiveness:
Unfortunately, unless you get AR access, only PHB or MM feats can be taken with an animal companion. Otherwise, it'd be a beautiful list.
kjenks
01-16-07, 09:46 PM Unfortunately, unless you get AR access, only PHB or MM feats can be taken with an animal companion. Otherwise, it'd be a beautiful list.

The LGCS is unclear on this, but what the Circle meant to say was that animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts may use the "NPC Only" feats on LGCS 596CY, page 29, in addition to the Core feats on page 26.

http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#animalfeats

(I told the Circle that text was confusing, but they didn't change it.)
cycloptic_squirrel
01-16-07, 09:54 PM Hmmm. Now I don't know what to think. Table variation? Hopefully the section's rewritten and the abiguity is out.

As far as power attack goes, as a DM I'd say it's all or nothing. Although I'd accept a plan like RedKnightofKet's if they presented it.
trollbill
01-16-07, 10:58 PM Sigh,

A couple of weeks ago I ran a Druid at a Con. He was 6th level and had a Tiger for an animal companion. Now since I am used to seeing druids with a level of Beastmaster this didn't surprise me, so I didn't question it. Then he told me his Tiger had Power Attack and Cleave. I said I didn't know Tigers had those feats (and I didn't think he was high enough level to have advanced his tiger enough to get 2 feats). He told me the LGCS says that Druids can rebuild their animal companions from the ground up. While I was supicious of this, I hadn't run any druids enough to be sure of this. So rather than disrupt the game while we dug through the rules looking for this, I took him at his word. Looking at the LGCS I can't find anything like that unless it is possibly a misinterpretation of the statement, "You can change your base animal companion each adventure you play if you desire, as long as you prepare apporpriate documentation before playing." Is there something in the rules I am still missing?
kjenks
01-16-07, 11:05 PM You're not missing anything. The player of the Druid 6 was wrong. However, the real proof of that is obscure -- a miscellaneous Circle ruling on the Wizards board, as quoted on the Theocracy site. So you did the right thing by not delaying the game until someone came up with proof.

Now, if you can, contact the player of the Druid and let him know that he was mistaken.
Hand_OF_Mystra
01-17-07, 10:03 AM I have a feeling some of these questions will be answered and alot more will be asked. But its been good so far.
Sure, maybe they will answer what "trained for war" means. I tried to find a contact for Skip (the author) and could not. There is a comment on this article link, where I posted the "trained for war" plea. Maybe someone heard, but I have not seen evidence of that yet. This seems like an opportune time to get a clarification, then maybe it could get picked up in a Dispel Confusion. So please, click on the comment link (I think it goes to the What's a DM to do? forum).
blood_kite
01-17-07, 01:50 PM Sure, maybe they will answer what "trained for war" means.

Especially since WotC seems to have no interest in clarifying it. I've been with LG for two years now and for two years I've seen requests for defining "trained for war". The requests that don't get ignored usually seem to be pointed towards Customer Service with the statement that it is a general rules question that should be answered by them.

Given the lack of FAQ entries defining "trained for war" in the last two years, it seems Customer Service has decided to leave it to individual DM's to decide for themselves what it means and what it takes to be considered "trained for war".

So what that means for us is that we have two groups pointing at each other and saying the other person is responsible for answering our question. Since they've been doing this for at least two years now I don't expect to see this question answered any time soon.

And I still can't find anything in their entries that says warhorses are "trained for war".
Mithreinmaethor
01-17-07, 06:41 PM Its obvious that "trained for war" was a semi-template that was added to the normal horses and the dog. Its just that it wasnt a template that was ever written in a book, but was just a guide the writer used for those creatures. In v3.0 they added the "Warbeast" template which gave an animal a modified version of this "semi-template". Which was probably in response to peoples query's about this "trained for war" question. They could easily address this in the FAQ by printing an updated v3.5 version of "Warbeast" and explain what it takes to give this template to a creature to make it essentially "trained for war"

But I have a feeling since its us lowly LGers that are mainly asking the question they havent deemed it worthy of addressing
kjenks
01-17-07, 08:56 PM The LGCS is unclear on this, but what the Circle meant to say was that animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts may use the "NPC Only" feats on LGCS 596CY, page 29, in addition to the Core feats on page 26.

http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#animalfeats

(I told the Circle that text was confusing, but they didn't change it.)

They DID change it. I just looked it up in the latest LGCS. This is about as clear as it gets:

LGCS 596CY, page 29
===
NPC ONLY:
*The following feats are Core for animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts. They are NPC Only for all others.
Ability Focus (MM)*
Archivist of Nature (HH)
Atlan’s Mark (D315)
...
===
Arvagor
01-17-07, 10:26 PM You're not missing anything. The player of the Druid 6 was wrong.How was he wrong? That is was wrong for him to rebuild the AC? Or wrong that it could/should/would take Power Attack?
_m_
01-17-07, 10:32 PM How was he wrong? That is was wrong for him to rebuild the AC? Or wrong that it could/should/would take Power Attack?

he was wrong in that you cant rebuild the animal by taking away feats that the creature inately has and replacing them with ones of your choosing.

at least, thats what kjenks says he was wrong about.
Arvagor
01-17-07, 10:45 PM he was wrong in that you cant rebuild the animal by taking away feats that the creature inately has and replacing them with ones of your choosing.Ah... Now I understand, and I agree -- all animals starting point is their base MM entry and none of that can be changed, only added on to...
Japangirl
01-17-07, 10:47 PM What m. said. When you take an animal companion, you are stuck with base feats and skills from the HD the animal starts with. When you get additional HD, you can build the animal from that point onwards (if the animal starts with 3 HD and you're a 6th level druid, it gains +4 HD, giving it a 6th level feat that the druid can choose). But you don't get to rebuild the animal from scratch.

EDIT:
Ah... Now I understand, and I agree -- all animals starting point is their base MM entry and none of that can be changed, only added on to...
Yes, exactly.
kjenks
01-18-07, 08:10 AM And you don't have to take our word for it that an animal can't rebuild its feats. Here's a Circle member saying the same thing:

"you can't change the feats out of the animal."

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=413027

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 03:30 PM	How precisely can a player control that aspect of their animal companion? I know the easiest answer is to just allow complete control, but this just doesn't sit quite right with me. What are some DM's opinions on the matter?
kjenks 01-16-07, 04:41 PM	I suspect that you're going to run into a lot of variations on what different judges think. Some judges say that an animal can use Power Attack reasonably well, others might say that an animal will always Power Attack for full BAB, others might say that an animal isn't smart enough to figure it all out and will never use the Power Attack feat. The Handle Animal skill might be construed to mean that you could Push your animal companion to use its Power Attack feat, but it's hard to figure out how you'd communicate what number to use. I can picture it this way: Druid: "Strike, Simba! But not too hard. And don't go easy on him. Just Power Attack for 3 this time to maximize the damage potential against this guy's apparent armor class, based on a probabalistic assessment of past combat interactions, using the d20 rolls we've seen so far! Strike!" Simba: "Huh?" Personally, I would avoid giving an animal companion the Power Attack feat. There are lots of other feats that will always work for you. Try these other, non-controversial feats to improve your animal's melee combat effectiveness: Acrobatic Agile Alertness Armor Proficiency Athletic Blind-Fight Combat Reflexes Dash (CW) Diehard Dive for Cover (CAd) Dodge Endurance Eyes in the Back of Your Head (CW) Fleet of Foot (CW) Great Fortitude Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (RS) Hear the Unseen (CAd) Heavy Armor Optimization (RS) Hold the Line (CW) Hover (MM) Improved Critical Improved Flight (CAd) Improved Natural Armor (MM) Improved Natural Attack (MM) Improved Toughness (CW) Iron Will Lightning Reflexes Mobility Multiattack (MM) Open Minded (CAd) Prone Attack (CW) Run Skill Focus Spring Attack Stealthy Toughness Track Tunnel Fighting (RS) Weapon Finesse Weapon Focus Wingover (MM) Lightning Reflexes + Dive for Cover is great for a critter with evasion. And if you're gonna take Dive for Cover, Prone Attack is nice. Run + Fleet of Foot is great for a mount, especially if you charge a lot. Open Minded + Skill Focus can give a big boost to a specific skill. Lotsa fun with Tumble, which is a cross-class skill for most critters. Acrobatic + Skill Focus (Tumble) could work even better. Hear the Unseen: Listen is a class skill for many animals and they have a decent Wisdom. Works well with Blind-Fight.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 05:07 PM	You know it's funny, but it doesn't seem that any of the animals a druid can get as an animal companion come with power attack anyway. I could have sworn there were a few animals that came with it...Didn't really want to have my animal companion take it anyway...just a wierd situation that was bugging me...
kenobi65 01-16-07, 05:26 PM	You know it's funny, but it doesn't seem that any of the animals a druid can get as an animal companion come with power attack anyway. Bear in mind that when your animal companion reaches 3HD, he gets a new feat (which he'll do when your druid reaches 3rd level). He could certainly take it then, though, as Ken points out, there are a lot of other useful feats that would provoke less table variation.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 05:47 PM	Bear in mind that when your animal companion reaches 3HD, he gets a new feat (which he'll do when your druid reaches 3rd level). He could certainly take it then, though, as Ken points out, there are a lot of other useful feats that would provoke less table variation. I know that an animal companion COULD take with the extra feats gained with advancement, I'm just saying that the fact that no MM animals already have it says to me that they probably are not intended to use it...
_m_ 01-16-07, 07:13 PM	I know that an animal companion COULD take with the extra feats gained with advancement, I'm just saying that the fact that no MM animals already have it says to me that they probably are not intended to use it... there are some animals that would have enough hunting knowledge to know inately when to use what skills. for example, a big angry wolf would instinctively know how, where, and how hard to strike. hes a hunter, its what he does. meanwhile, a giant ape is prbably going to just power attack the mc'crap out of things anyway.
Mithreinmaethor 01-16-07, 07:25 PM	Pay attention to the following threads: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070109a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070116a I have a feeling some of these questions will be answered and alot more will be asked. But its been good so far.
RedKnightofKet 01-16-07, 07:31 PM	I always explain it to my DM that my animal companion (if it has PA, of course) usually starts out with going for full, then reducing it step-by-step if it missed. Once it has a range figured out, it sticks with that for the particular opponent. there are some animals that would have enough hunting knowledge to know inately when to use what skills. for example, a big angry wolf would instinctively know how, where, and how hard to strike. hes a hunter, its what he does. meanwhile, a giant ape is prbably going to just power attack the mc'crap out of things anyway.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 08:40 PM	Try these other, non-controversial feats to improve your animal's melee combat effectiveness: Unfortunately, unless you get AR access, only PHB or MM feats can be taken with an animal companion. Otherwise, it'd be a beautiful list.
kjenks 01-16-07, 09:46 PM	Unfortunately, unless you get AR access, only PHB or MM feats can be taken with an animal companion. Otherwise, it'd be a beautiful list. The LGCS is unclear on this, but what the Circle meant to say was that animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts may use the "NPC Only" feats on LGCS 596CY, page 29, in addition to the Core feats on page 26. http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#animalfeats (I told the Circle that text was confusing, but they didn't change it.)
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 09:54 PM	Hmmm. Now I don't know what to think. Table variation? Hopefully the section's rewritten and the abiguity is out. As far as power attack goes, as a DM I'd say it's all or nothing. Although I'd accept a plan like RedKnightofKet's if they presented it.
trollbill 01-16-07, 10:58 PM	Sigh, A couple of weeks ago I ran a Druid at a Con. He was 6th level and had a Tiger for an animal companion. Now since I am used to seeing druids with a level of Beastmaster this didn't surprise me, so I didn't question it. Then he told me his Tiger had Power Attack and Cleave. I said I didn't know Tigers had those feats (and I didn't think he was high enough level to have advanced his tiger enough to get 2 feats). He told me the LGCS says that Druids can rebuild their animal companions from the ground up. While I was supicious of this, I hadn't run any druids enough to be sure of this. So rather than disrupt the game while we dug through the rules looking for this, I took him at his word. Looking at the LGCS I can't find anything like that unless it is possibly a misinterpretation of the statement, "You can change your base animal companion each adventure you play if you desire, as long as you prepare apporpriate documentation before playing." Is there something in the rules I am still missing?
kjenks 01-16-07, 11:05 PM	You're not missing anything. The player of the Druid 6 was wrong. However, the real proof of that is obscure -- a miscellaneous Circle ruling on the Wizards board, as quoted on the Theocracy site. So you did the right thing by not delaying the game until someone came up with proof. Now, if you can, contact the player of the Druid and let him know that he was mistaken.
Hand_OF_Mystra 01-17-07, 10:03 AM	I have a feeling some of these questions will be answered and alot more will be asked. But its been good so far. Sure, maybe they will answer what "trained for war" means. I tried to find a contact for Skip (the author) and could not. There is a comment on this article link, where I posted the "trained for war" plea. Maybe someone heard, but I have not seen evidence of that yet. This seems like an opportune time to get a clarification, then maybe it could get picked up in a Dispel Confusion. So please, click on the comment link (I think it goes to the What's a DM to do? forum).
blood_kite 01-17-07, 01:50 PM	Sure, maybe they will answer what "trained for war" means. Especially since WotC seems to have no interest in clarifying it. I've been with LG for two years now and for two years I've seen requests for defining "trained for war". The requests that don't get ignored usually seem to be pointed towards Customer Service with the statement that it is a general rules question that should be answered by them. Given the lack of FAQ entries defining "trained for war" in the last two years, it seems Customer Service has decided to leave it to individual DM's to decide for themselves what it means and what it takes to be considered "trained for war". So what that means for us is that we have two groups pointing at each other and saying the other person is responsible for answering our question. Since they've been doing this for at least two years now I don't expect to see this question answered any time soon. And I still can't find anything in their entries that says warhorses are "trained for war".
Mithreinmaethor 01-17-07, 06:41 PM	Its obvious that "trained for war" was a semi-template that was added to the normal horses and the dog. Its just that it wasnt a template that was ever written in a book, but was just a guide the writer used for those creatures. In v3.0 they added the "Warbeast" template which gave an animal a modified version of this "semi-template". Which was probably in response to peoples query's about this "trained for war" question. They could easily address this in the FAQ by printing an updated v3.5 version of "Warbeast" and explain what it takes to give this template to a creature to make it essentially "trained for war" But I have a feeling since its us lowly LGers that are mainly asking the question they havent deemed it worthy of addressing
kjenks 01-17-07, 08:56 PM	The LGCS is unclear on this, but what the Circle meant to say was that animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts may use the "NPC Only" feats on LGCS 596CY, page 29, in addition to the Core feats on page 26. http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#animalfeats (I told the Circle that text was confusing, but they didn't change it.) They DID change it. I just looked it up in the latest LGCS. This is about as clear as it gets: LGCS 596CY, page 29 === NPC ONLY: The following feats are Core for animal companions, familiars, paladin mounts, and/or special cohorts. They are NPC Only for all others. Ability Focus (MM) Archivist of Nature (HH) Atlan’s Mark (D315) ... ===
Arvagor 01-17-07, 10:26 PM	You're not missing anything. The player of the Druid 6 was wrong.How was he wrong? That is was wrong for him to rebuild the AC? Or wrong that it could/should/would take Power Attack?
_m_ 01-17-07, 10:32 PM	How was he wrong? That is was wrong for him to rebuild the AC? Or wrong that it could/should/would take Power Attack? he was wrong in that you cant rebuild the animal by taking away feats that the creature inately has and replacing them with ones of your choosing. at least, thats what kjenks says he was wrong about.
Arvagor 01-17-07, 10:45 PM	he was wrong in that you cant rebuild the animal by taking away feats that the creature inately has and replacing them with ones of your choosing.Ah... Now I understand, and I agree -- all animals starting point is their base MM entry and none of that can be changed, only added on to...
Japangirl 01-17-07, 10:47 PM	What m. said. When you take an animal companion, you are stuck with base feats and skills from the HD the animal starts with. When you get additional HD, you can build the animal from that point onwards (if the animal starts with 3 HD and you're a 6th level druid, it gains +4 HD, giving it a 6th level feat that the druid can choose). But you don't get to rebuild the animal from scratch. EDIT: Ah... Now I understand, and I agree -- all animals starting point is their base MM entry and none of that can be changed, only added on to... Yes, exactly.
kjenks 01-18-07, 08:10 AM	And you don't have to take our word for it that an animal can't rebuild its feats. Here's a Circle member saying the same thing: "you can't change the feats out of the animal." http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=413027