Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fan_of_greyhawk 02-02-06, 06:13 PM	Think Plaladin's Mounts and Animals Companions should be included in the APL count. These creatures become very powerful at high APL and creates game unbalance. As a simple rule, ANY creature that actually FIGHTS in a mod should be taken into the APL count. Presently, mod writers tend to twist the APL calculation, in order to compensate for the presence of these not counted creatures. fan_of_greyhawk
redgamer 02-02-06, 06:38 PM	They also represent a significant part of many paladins abilities. Maybe some druids could afford to have their animal companion counted and only be slightly below the expected power level. Paladin's just plain can't contribute the same with their mount as a character 3-4 levels higher than them can without. Would you really rather have a paladin lvl 6 with a mount rather than a paladin lvl 10 without? Or a druid who casts lvl 4 spells plus has an animal companion instead of a druid who cast lvl 6 spell and doesn't have an animal companion?
A'Talsen 02-02-06, 08:18 PM	Animal Companions and Paladin's Mounts are class features. While I understand the 'feel' of them being seperate entitys, you can't really separate them out from any other class feature for increasing (or decreasing the APL). In a home game, you wouldn't (by the RAW) include them in calculating XP for any given encounter, so they logically should not effect the APL. Michael "Fish" Murphy Think Plaladin's Mounts and Animals Companions should be included in the APL count. These creatures become very powerful at high APL and creates game unbalance. As a simple rule, ANY creature that actually FIGHTS in a mod should be taken into the APL count. Presently, mod writers tend to twist the APL calculation, in order to compensate for the presence of these not counted creatures. fan_of_greyhawk
fan_of_greyhawk 02-03-06, 10:26 AM	They also represent a significant part of many paladins abilities. Maybe some druids could afford to have their animal companion counted and only be slightly below the expected power level. Paladin's just plain can't contribute the same with their mount as a character 3-4 levels higher than them can without. Would you really rather have a paladin lvl 6 with a mount rather than a paladin lvl 10 without? Or a druid who casts lvl 4 spells plus has an animal companion instead of a druid who cast lvl 6 spell and doesn't have an animal companion? A paladin level 9 with a mount should match a paladin level 10 without is mount. Just add +1 for the level entry before calculating the APL. The same for animal companions. Of course the DM may choose not applying this extra if the mount or animal not useful in a specific mod (underwater, narrow tunnels underground, etc...)
fan_of_greyhawk 02-03-06, 10:47 AM	Animal Companions and Paladin's Mounts are class features. While I understand the 'feel' of them being seperate entitys, you can't really separate them out from any other class feature for increasing (or decreasing the APL). In a home game, you wouldn't (by the RAW) include them in calculating XP for any given encounter, so they logically should not effect the APL. Michael "Fish" Murphy There is no problem in a home game because there is no APL count. The DM is free to make any adjustment he wants to compensate for the presence of overpowered mounts or animals companions. In the LG campaign, such adjusment is made by giving official or unofficial directives to writers such as being mean, or making 'agressive EL calculations' which in turn create player frustration problems! I had to DM such a game, and even though I was instructed to 'soft DM' , the players realized that they would never have a chance to complete the game, and thus choose to abandon at mid-course. For sure we will not see these guys (who as travelled long hours) back at our cons. The problem is not with what is an inherent class feature or not, the problem is with the overall APL system, which is difficult to balance. After game comments like 'How they could put such monster at that APL' are bad things, because they discourage players from playing mods from a given author, or worse from a given region!!!! Hope this help understand the point... fan_of_greyhawk
A'Talsen 02-03-06, 11:24 AM	There is no problem in a home game because there is no APL count. The DM is free to make any adjustment he wants to compensate for the presence of overpowered mounts or animals companions. While any DM *can* make adjustments, those are ouside the Rules as Written. This is similar to saying that the DM can give any amount of XP he wants; while true, it is not relivant to my discussion of LG and the way the rules work *without* DM 'adjustment'. My understanding of the RAW is that you would not adjust the XP award based on any particular class feature, including one that introduces new creatures (Summoning, Binding, Animal Companions, Paladin Mounts, etc). While APL is different from the XP given, it is controled by the same factors. Namely, 'what level the characters are'. Neither APL in LG nor the XP in a home game should (by the RAW!) be adjusted because of any class feature. In the LG campaign, such adjusment is made by giving official or unofficial directives to writers such as being mean, or making 'agressive EL calculations' which in turn create player frustration problems! I had to DM such a game, and even though I was instructed to 'soft DM' , the players realized that they would never have a chance to complete the game, and thus choose to abandon at mid-course. For sure we will not see these guys (who as travelled long hours) back at our cons. The problem is not with what is an inherent class feature or not, the problem is with the overall APL system, which is difficult to balance. After game comments like 'How they could put such monster at that APL' are bad things, because they discourage players from playing mods from a given author, or worse from a given region!!!! Hope this help understand the point... fan_of_greyhawk Unfortunately, I do not understand your point. :( Are you saying that you encountered a mod that had an NPC fighting the PCs, which NPC had a powerfull animal companion with them? Michael "Fish" Murphy
SYB 02-03-06, 01:21 PM	Its been said before, but I think it should be said a little more strongly. A Paladin mount, Druid animal companion, and a Ranger animal companion are all class features. If you adjust the APL for these, it is the same as upping the APL of a 5th level wizard because he can cast spells. Without the mount class feature, a Paladin is unquestionably inferior to a fighter (arguably he is inferior to a fighter even with it, but that argument is for another day). Pets/cohorts that are not class features deserve to be taken into account in the APL system. But punishing someone for using a class feature is unreasonable and unfair. -MS
fan_of_greyhawk 02-03-06, 06:30 PM	Its been said before, but I think it should be said a little more strongly. A Paladin mount, Druid animal companion, and a Ranger animal companion are all class features. If you adjust the APL for these, it is the same as upping the APL of a 5th level wizard because he can cast spells. Without the mount class feature, a Paladin is unquestionably inferior to a fighter (arguably he is inferior to a fighter even with it, but that argument is for another day). Pets/cohorts that are not class features deserve to be taken into account in the APL system. But punishing someone for using a class feature is unreasonable and unfair. -MS not sure the Paladin is inferior to the fighter.....against a spellcasting monster, a fighter is highly susceptible to fail a will save and thus become useless for very long rounds....the Paladin has the better chances of making these critical saves. At high APL, Paladin's mounts and animal companions get a lot of improvements and thus become formidable combat machines by themselves. Most 'broken mod' I've seen were with the help of such creatures. Ounce tried to grapple a level 10 Paladin with an Advanced Huge Phase Spider, the problem was that his mount (large creature) had still a better grapple check!! After being pinned, the only escape for the spider was to flee on the ethereal plane!!!
RedKnightofKet 02-03-06, 11:40 PM	Think Plaladin's Mounts and Animals Companions should be included in the APL count. These creatures become very powerful at high APL and creates game unbalance. As a simple rule, ANY creature that actually FIGHTS in a mod should be taken into the APL count. Presently, mod writers tend to twist the APL calculation, in order to compensate for the presence of these not counted creatures. fan_of_greyhawk My main character is a druid, and I played him down in one mod, and was unable to bring my animal companion. The table was APL 4, I was level 6, and felt useless through the mod. You take away a druid's animal companion, and he becomes vastly inferior to any other class. Period. Same kind of thing applies for rangers and paladins. The balance in the design of the game takes these class features into account. While it certainly can and does get munchkinned, what doesn't, at some point, in LG? The Red Knight of Ket
chrispedersen 02-04-06, 12:28 AM	If you spent a lot of feats/access on your companion. But I view druids as one of the strongest classes - even without an animal companion. You have one of the best 1 level spells in entangle, one of the best 2nd level spells in binding winds. And if you have decent access for limited spells SC will rock your world. Solid spells, reasonable hit points and armor, great summoning. Good saves, reasonable dump stats, fair skills, and a kick ass animal companion. C
RLWilde 02-04-06, 01:26 AM	A paladin level 9 with a mount should match a paladin level 10 without is mount. Just add +1 for the level entry before calculating the APL. The same for animal companions. A fighter who has taken his bonus fighter feats should match a higher level fighter who has not. Should we increase the level of fighters who have taken bonus fighter feats?
fan_of_greyhawk 02-04-06, 12:41 PM	Its been said before, but I think it should be said a little more strongly. A Paladin mount, Druid animal companion, and a Ranger animal companion are all class features. If you adjust the APL for these, it is the same as upping the APL of a 5th level wizard because he can cast spells. Without the mount class feature, a Paladin is unquestionably inferior to a fighter (arguably he is inferior to a fighter even with it, but that argument is for another day). Pets/cohorts that are not class features deserve to be taken into account in the APL system. But punishing someone for using a class feature is unreasonable and unfair. -MS Let's try that again.... The ruling could be simply changed as: A Paladin standard PHB mount, Druid standard PHB animal companion, and a Ranger standard PHB animal companion are all class features.....and thus does not count towards APL. As soons as these creatures get enhanced from sources outside the PHB, they should add to the level of their owner as follows: 1 or 2 enhancements: +1 3 or 4 enhancements: +2 Hope this helps....
wagnert 02-04-06, 02:31 PM	Let's try that again.... The ruling could be simply changed as: A Paladin standard PHB mount, Druid standard PHB animal companion, and a Ranger standard PHB animal companion are all class features.....and thus does not count towards APL. As soons as these creatures get enhanced from sources outside the PHB, they should add to the level of their owner as follows: 1 or 2 enhancements: +1 3 or 4 enhancements: +2 Hope this helps.... I'm not sure what you mean by being enhanced from sources outside the PHB. Could you give us some valid LG legal examples?
fan_of_greyhawk 02-04-06, 06:11 PM	I'm not sure what you mean by being enhanced from sources outside the PHB. Could you give us some valid LG legal examples? Think about the finest cheese produced by the finest cheesemakers in Greyhawk.... I cannot give an actual example cause I do not play a Paladin. But you can see the result on post #8. (Paladin mount vs Advanced Huge phase spider)
kenobi65 02-04-06, 08:15 PM	I cannot give an actual example cause I do not play a Paladin. But you can see the result on post #8. (Paladin mount vs Advanced Huge phase spider) It's going to be kind of hard for you to garner support for your argument if you're not able to illustrate the exact problem you've faced. What was it about this paladin's mount that was "enhanced"? What made it such a grapple-monster? Edit: a regular heavy warhorse has a grapple check of +11. A 10th level paladin's heavy warhorse would have a grapple check of +15 (a gain of +3 from better BAB, and a gain of +1 from higher Str). Meanwhile, a "normal" phase spider has a grapple check of +12. Advancing it to Huge (making it at least 9HD) should bring its grapple check to at least +25 (+5 from improved BAB, +4 from a gain of +8 to Str, +4 for size increase). I'm extremely curious as to what other "enhancements" this warhorse you encountered had that got it to the point where its grapple score was a significant threat to this huge phase spider. You also seem pretty convinced that these "enhancements" are an endemic problem in LG, and that writers are specifically taking these things into account when writing modules -- what evidence do you have of this?
fan_of_greyhawk 02-04-06, 10:10 PM	It's going to be kind of hard for you to garner support for your argument if you're not able to illustrate the exact problem you've faced. What was it about this paladin's mount that was "enhanced"? What made it such a grapple-monster? Edit: a regular heavy warhorse has a grapple check of +11. A 10th level paladin's heavy warhorse would have a grapple check of +15 (a gain of +3 from better BAB, and a gain of +1 from higher Str). Meanwhile, a "normal" phase spider has a grapple check of +12. Advancing it to Huge (making it at least 9HD) should bring its grapple check to at least +25 (+5 from improved BAB, +4 from a gain of +8 to Str, +4 for size increase). I'm extremely curious as to what other "enhancements" this warhorse you encountered had that got it to the point where its grapple score was a significant threat to this huge phase spider. You also seem pretty convinced that these "enhancements" are an endemic problem in LG, and that writers are specifically taking these things into account when writing modules -- what evidence do you have of this? The mount was not a warhorse, but a Griffin. The Advanced Huge Phase Spider had a grapple check of +29 If you played VTF4-07 Sticks and Stones (and not dealing with any of the demons) you know what I am speaking of...
kenobi65 02-04-06, 10:43 PM	The mount was not a warhorse, but a Griffin. Ah, I gotcha now. You hadn't specified what the mount specifically was, only saying, "large mount," which could well have just been a warhorse. (At any rate, even though you need access in LG to get a griffon, it's not an unheard-of mount for a paladin; it's specifically listed in the DMG, p. 204, as an "unusual" mount.) OK, then. A base griffon has a grapple of +15. Paladins can only get a griffon if they're at least 8th level; according to the DMG, p. 205, a 10th level paladin would add 2HD and +1 Str to a griffon, which would add +2 to the griffon's grapple check (+2 from better BAB, Str goes from 18 to 19, so no gain there), for a +17. So, if the phase spider had a +29, the griffon would have had to have an extra +12 to its grapple check just to be even with it...and you indicated that it was somehow significantly *better* than the spider. If you played VTF4-07 Sticks and Stones (and not dealing with any of the demons) you know what I am speaking of... Well, I haven't played it...and since it's retired, why don't you spell out the situation, rather than being coy?
fan_of_greyhawk 02-05-06, 09:44 AM	Ah, I gotcha now. You hadn't specified what the mount specifically was, only saying, "large mount," which could well have just been a warhorse. (At any rate, even though you need access in LG to get a griffon, it's not an unheard-of mount for a paladin; it's specifically listed in the DMG, p. 204, as an "unusual" mount.) OK, then. A base griffon has a grapple of +15. Paladins can only get a griffon if they're at least 8th level; according to the DMG, p. 205, a 10th level paladin would add 2HD and +1 Str to a griffon, which would add +2 to the griffon's grapple check (+2 from better BAB, Str goes from 18 to 19, so no gain there), for a +17. So, if the phase spider had a +29, the griffon would have had to have an extra +12 to its grapple check just to be even with it...and you indicated that it was somehow significantly *better* than the spider. Well, I haven't played it...and since it's retired, why don't you spell out the situation, rather than being coy? Before replying, please just remind that we are discussing of the whole APL and EL system balance, and the assumption that mod writers are (often) under pressure to twist the EL calculations. One of the main causes of this, I believe, is the overpowered Paladin's Mounts or Druid/Ranger animal companions (after these creatures had gained non-PHB improvements). The situation with the Pal10 Griffin Mount and Advanced Huge Phase Spider (14HD!!!) happened recently in a non-retired mod. In VTF 4-07, instead of a Paladin's mount, we had with us a 'mod-breaking' animal companion, and even we were hardly a match for most of the encounters. Think of a pre-buffed, officially EL+3, encounter, were the party was not allowed to cast any spells days before the first encounter, no possibility to rest between encounters, and where the monsters abilities/strategies were awsome (at will teleportation and wall Su abilities to divide the party, area of effect continual damage Su so when you get in the negative hit points someone has to stop fighting to rescue you or you die) and very well adapted to the surroundings of the encounter!!! Do I need to say more?? fan_of_greyhawk
CSHunt68 02-05-06, 09:53 AM	I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how any of this REMOTELY supports the argument that some select class features should arbitrarily increase a character's effective level. Please leave the core rules alone.
kenobi65 02-05-06, 02:16 PM	(removed double post)
kenobi65 02-05-06, 02:18 PM	Before replying, please just remind that we are discussing of the whole APL and EL system balance, and the assumption that mod writers are (often) under pressure to twist the EL calculations. One of the main causes of this, I believe, is the overpowered Paladin's Mounts or Druid/Ranger animal companions (after these creatures had gained non-PHB improvements). You have said this twice now, but I honestly don't believe it's true. Do you have any actual evidence? Have you learned this (even anecdotally) from writers? First of all, I don't believe that most module writers are assuming that the typical party is going to contain a Druid and / or a Paladin, and writing against that assumption. IME, they're relatively uncommon character choices in LG, especially Paladins, who suffer from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency), making them harder to play effectively in a 28-point-buy game, compared to some other classes. I might be willing to buy that druidic animal companions can be combat monsters...but I think that's the intent of the class. (Ranger animal companions, because they don't benefit fully from their masters' levels for advancement, tend to not be particularly effective in combats that are level-appropriate for their masters, so I'm not worrying about them.) You have repeatedly mentioned "non-PHB enhancements / improvements" for these animals. Could you please give an example? Are we talking about magic items? What? If you really feel there's abusive stuff going on, you need to give us some real examples. The situation with the Pal10 Griffin Mount and Advanced Huge Phase Spider (14HD!!!) happened recently in a non-retired mod. In VTF 4-07, instead of a Paladin's mount, we had with us a 'mod-breaking' animal companion, and even we were hardly a match for most of the encounters. Ah. It had not been clear before that these were two different examples you were talking about. In the first case, even if it's not retired, it sounds like the issue was with one of the PCs' mounts, so the fact that the module isn't retired shouldn't make a difference for discussing it in this forum. Again, how was this mount enhanced that irritated you so much? What did he have that increased his grapple check to ungodly levels? The second example sounds like it gets more at the crux of your issue. Some modules have nasty, over-the-top encounters, and (it sounds to me like) you believe that this is because writers are writing encounters specifically because they think that animal companions "break" modules. I don't think that this is the case (or, at least, that this is the reason why). I think it's more that twinked-out characters in general are seen as "breaking" modules, and some writers and regions seem to feel the need to write towards that issue. I read many complaints on the board here, and on the LG Yahoo group, about how some (I hesitate to say many) LG modules seem to be written with min-maxed characters in mind, and that, for some players, it takes the fun out of playing a "role-playing" (i.e., not min-maxed) character out of the campaign. Think of a pre-buffed, officially EL+3, encounter, were the party was not allowed to cast any spells days before the first encounter, no possibility to rest between encounters, and where the monsters abilities/strategies were awsome (at will teleportation and wall Su abilities to divide the party, area of effect continual damage Su so when you get in the negative hit points someone has to stop fighting to rescue you or you die) and very well adapted to the surroundings of the encounter!!! This just sounds like a very nastily-written module in general (and I know that metaregionals have, in the past, had the reputation of being very tough)...again, I don't see anything in there that would, in any way, indicate that it's specifically written with the assumption that there's animal companions available.
Dru 02-05-06, 03:54 PM	I think standard PHB animal companions/mounts should NOT be included in the APL. These are class features. One example of when i do beleive an APL modifier should be applied: I've seen CELESTIAL templated animal companions (available from a Keoland mod I beleive) that broke encounters (apl 4 with DR 5/magic...) and I've seen many non-PHB pally mounts. I beleive there should be an APL adjustment for such situations. Perhaps (and Im sure my betters can devise a better system) +1 for each template on the companion/mount +1 for non-PHB animal companion/mount Cheers, Dru
SYB 02-05-06, 05:15 PM	I think standard PHB animal companions/mounts should NOT be included in the APL. These are class features. One example of when i do beleive an APL modifier should be applied: I've seen CELESTIAL templated animal companions (available from a Keoland mod I beleive) that broke encounters (apl 4 with DR 5/magic...) and I've seen many non-PHB pally mounts. I beleive there should be an APL adjustment for such situations. Perhaps (and Im sure my betters can devise a better system) +1 for each template on the companion/mount +1 for non-PHB animal companion/mount Cheers, Dru I just read the DMG. The rules for unusual mounts take into account the fact that unusual mounts are "better". They require a higher level for the Paladin to get the mount (instead of the usual 5th) and the mount's advancement is delayed by an equivalent amount. So, given the example used before, a warhorse of a 10th level Paladin would have received a 4 bonus HD, 6 bonus Natural armor, 2 bonus strength, and would have an intelligence of 7. Also, the warhorse would have gained a 10' speed bonus. A griffin of a 10th level Paladin would have received 2 bonus HD, 4 bonus Natural armor, 1 bonus strength, and would have an intelligence of 6. Thus, the two mounts are relatively balanced. Assuming LG similarly requires Paladins to be higher than 5th level to get access to special AR mounts, then the class feature still self-balances. As for the celestial template, the only way I know to currently add the celestial template to a Paladin mount is via a feat (similar to Improved Familiar). Since all the feat does is improve a class feature, I still don't believe the table should have the APL penalized for that. This would be in line with penalizing a table for a player taking the Staggering Strike feat (which improves the sneak attack class feature). -SYB
haferka 02-05-06, 05:56 PM	Definite ... NO .. on this request... I plan to play a Beastmaster... with multiple animal companions... and I for one don't want to be penalized for using my class abilities (animal companions).
Dru 02-06-06, 12:16 AM	As for the celestial template, the only way I know to currently add the celestial template to a Paladin mount is via a feat (similar to Improved Familiar). Since all the feat does is improve a class feature, I still don't believe the table should have the APL penalized for that. This would be in line with penalizing a table for a player taking the Staggering Strike feat (which improves the sneak attack class feature). -SYB incorrect in this instance. the Keoland mod (and other regions may have done something similiar) makes your animal companion Celestial. No feat etc required. It just happens. Thus, balance issues. You arent using feats or sacrifcing class abilities for this. Examples such as this should have an APL adjustment IMO. Dru
haferka 02-06-06, 01:22 AM	incorrect in this instance. the Keoland mod (and other regions may have done something similiar) makes your animal companion Celestial. No feat etc required. It just happens. Thus, balance issues. You arent using feats or sacrifcing class abilities for this. Examples such as this should have an APL adjustment IMO. Dru Definitly sounds like a problem. but it sounds like a problem that Koland needs to fix. If the mod makes your companion stronger in any way. I should lower your effective druid level for advancement purposes, or come with drawbacks which are on par with the advantage you have gained. I for one would like to see the exact AR text, before I decide it it is broken or not.. In either case.. your example points to a problem with a mod.. not the APL calculations.
Sieylianna 02-06-06, 07:59 AM	In VTF 4-07, instead of a Paladin's mount, we had with us a 'mod-breaking' animal companion, and even we were hardly a match for most of the encounters. VTF4-07 was one of the easiest of the VTF modules. We did have a cohort die (after being paralyzed by blasphemy, he died to an area effect spell since he didn't receive a saving throw). Ed
fan_of_greyhawk 02-06-06, 09:23 AM	VTF4-07 was one of the easiest of the VTF modules. We did have a cohort die (after being paralyzed by blasphemy, he died to an area effect spell since he didn't receive a saving throw). Ed In Sticks and Stone, VTF4-07, your party is offered to make a pact with demons or devils, and the 'correct' answer is to refuse it.... But then, you get to fight both the demons and the devils at the same time, whose abilities complete each other in a terribly efficient manner...
fan_of_greyhawk 02-06-06, 09:55 AM	Definite ... NO .. on this request... I plan to play a Beastmaster... with multiple animal companions... and I for one don't want to be penalized for using my class abilities (animal companions). Just to say that I have certainly NO prejudices against the use of animals companions!!! As a player, I will very willingly seat with characters having these...At high APL, I can haste all these beasties for free! Animal companions provide 'buff spells targets', and 'melee combat cover' that many others (arcane, archers, thieves and spring attack fighters) do not provide. Honestly, I do consider them as a ' bonus' specially when the incoming mod appears though (which is now always the case since my main char. is now level 12...) Happy Gaming! fan_of_greyhawk
Madfox11 02-06-06, 10:28 AM	In Sticks and Stone, VTF4-07, your party is offered to make a pact with demons or devils, and the 'correct' answer is to refuse it.... But then, you get to fight both the demons and the devils at the same time, whose abilities complete each other in a terribly efficient manner... I played it without animal companions, a not too terribly cheesed out party and we made the same deal.The fight was a hard one, but it was hardly impossible and nobody got even close to dieing... I also doubt the presence of animal companions would have helped. They are still animals, and I wonder how a druid can direct them to attack the ice walls unless he standing in the same area. (I have seen players wanted to do highly complicated things with their animal companions, so I do get the impression people forget these are still animals with animal intelligence.) Animal companions are powerful, but you should ask the druids in our region how many of them die in each adventure ;) I can assure you that the authors in my metaregion do NOT take the presence of animal companions into account, let alone paladin mounts. Druids are not common enough by far to have them present at play tests.
Sieylianna 02-06-06, 12:32 PM	In Sticks and Stone, VTF4-07, your party is offered to make a pact with demons or devils, and the 'correct' answer is to refuse it.... But then, you get to fight both the demons and the devils at the same time, whose abilities complete each other in a terribly efficient manner... Assuming there wasn't an earlier fight which I forgot, we fought them separately. Whether that was your judge, my judge, or our group managing to offend one group at a time, while holding out the possibility of cooperation to the other until one fight was over, I can't say. Ed
fan_of_greyhawk 02-06-06, 08:29 PM	Definitly sounds like a problem. but it sounds like a problem that Koland needs to fix. If the mod makes your companion stronger in any way. I should lower your effective druid level for advancement purposes, or come with drawbacks which are on par with the advantage you have gained. I for one would like to see the exact AR text, before I decide it it is broken or not.. In either case.. your example points to a problem with a mod.. not the APL calculations. So, if you can get one 'free template' or 'animal advancement' for free, nothing thus prevents you for getting the same kind of bonus another time, a third time, an even four times!!! (effectively heard that some characters got up to FOUR templates/bonus advancements for their companions or mounts, and for free!). Now we can explain why the Pal10 Griffin Mount was able to pin the 14HD Advanced Huge Phase Spider... Perhaps should we have another Circle Member, whose job would be to 'Supervise Keoland AR's' HaHaHaHaHa..... :D
redgamer 02-07-06, 03:12 AM	Nothing prevents this other than the fact that they are rare and rarely stack. For a while I autostabilized. Should this bumb my APL. Many people have a free smite attack. Should this bumb their APL. Many people got a free luck domain power. Should this bump their APL. I could keep listing similar things. Players get powerful stuff on ARs. Sometimes its even free. I figure if using the feign suprise campaign card doesn't up you APL adding a template to you animal companion certaintly shouldn't.
fan_of_greyhawk 02-08-06, 09:50 PM	Nothing prevents this other than the fact that they are rare and rarely stack. For a while I autostabilized. Should this bumb my APL. Many people have a free smite attack. Should this bumb their APL. Many people got a free luck domain power. Should this bump their APL. I could keep listing similar things. Players get powerful stuff on ARs. Sometimes its even free. I figure if using the feign suprise campaign card doesn't up you APL adding a template to you animal companion certaintly shouldn't. In fact, it is even worse then that, by adding a template to an animal companion without paying the appropriate cost, you alter the normal level progression of the animal. According to the DMG page 204, a Pal 10 flying mount should be CR6, thus unable have the best against a CR9 Phase Spider. If you get an AR that give you anything that should be only available for you at a higher level, this should add-up to the APL count. Or else it is all the level-progresion system that becomes messed-up. If your Barbarian 1 receive a 'blessing' giving him 2 extra rages per day, so he can rages as often a Barbarian 8, this should influence the APL count!! The progress of animals companions and paladins mounts MUST follow the normal level progress of their masters. This is the class feature. When you have a 'nice AR' that allows you to accelerate this progression, a hefty price should be paid for that. fan_of_greyhawk
CSHunt68 02-08-06, 09:55 PM	In that case, you'd have to start instituting player audits before every game to see what kind of favours and items they have and judge whether or not it affects the APL, up or down. It's not going to happen. Thankfully. Class features shouldn't and won't affect APL.
fan_of_greyhawk 02-09-06, 12:45 PM	In that case, you'd have to start instituting player audits before every game to see what kind of favours and items they have and judge whether or not it affects the APL, up or down. It's not going to happen. Thankfully. Class features shouldn't and won't affect APL. Yes, probably too complicated to make all these players audits. The easiest solution would be that the LGCS clearly states that you need to spend a feat (at least) to increase the CR of your mount or animal companion beyond the DMG rules. Whitout spending such feat, the CR of a Paladin's Mount could not exceed Level-3 (or level-4 for a flying mount), even if you have a "broken AR" that just says your mount 'gains' a template for free...
RanielK 02-09-06, 12:55 PM	In that case, you'd have to start instituting player audits before every game to see what kind of favours and items they have and judge whether or not it affects the APL, up or down. It's not going to happen. Thankfully. Class features shouldn't and won't affect APL. By this token, should everyone have their wealth calculated, with documentation to prove it? What happens when they are below the DMG tables for PC wealth at their level? I would assume an CR bump when someone is above it by more than one level (as is possible with a crafter). Yeah, it'd be a nightmare. Besides, for every arcane heirophont with a celestial, warhorse animal companion/familiar at the table, there is the 8th level guy who's build will be totally killer . . . at 15th level, or the face bard who sings and hides (though don't knock the singing, especially with CV rules). Miles Aka Raniel Kavilion, Grey elf, M, CN, Wizard 8/Wild Ma . . . er Wizard some more 2/Fighter 1, CWI = Character wealth of a 13 level character if I had bought the stuf and not crafted it, master of Little Rogue, Celestial Pseudodragon.
kenobi65 02-09-06, 12:56 PM	In that case, you'd have to start instituting player audits before every game to see what kind of favours and items they have and judge whether or not it affects the APL, up or down. Yup, it's just way too subjective and time-consuming.
kenobi65 02-09-06, 01:00 PM	The easiest solution would be that the LGCS clearly states that you need to spend a feat (at least) to increase the CR of your mount or animal companion beyond the DMG rules. Whitout spending such feat, the CR of a Paladin's Mount could not exceed Level-3 (or level-4 for a flying mount), even if you have a "broken AR" that just says your mount 'gains' a template for free... Except now you're (potentially) penalizing the druid and paladin, because the favors that might help their animals now require feats to use...meanwhile, favors that might increase the class abilities of other classes (like the extra barbarian rage you mention earlier) wouldn't require feats to use.
Arvagor 02-09-06, 01:19 PM	If your Barbarian 1 receive a 'blessing' giving him 2 extra rages per day, so he can rages as often a Barbarian 8, this should influence the APL count!! Hmm... And how would you calculate this "new" APL? In your example above, how is a "blessing" any different from the PC taking a feat that grants the same ability? What about the fact that the PCs BAB, saves, skills, etc. have not increased accordingly? Say I have a favor that grants the PC the ability to cast a specific spell, one time only, as a spell-like ability, and the spell is beyond his level, etc.; I'll be specific enough to say that I have a 3rd-level PC with a favor granting a Sor/Wiz 9 spell in just such a manner. What's his "effective level" for the APL calculation? Now add in the fact that he cannot actually do anything with the results of that spell (at least at his current level), it cannot affect his combat capabilities, nor his spell-casting abilities (presuming he has any), nor deal any damage, etc. Obviously for this PC, it's a worthless ability, but by your reckoning, it's somehow going to bump up the APL. What if he has another favor that applies a -2 penalty to all his saves? To me, it's clear he's behind on his effective level, so that should lower the ALP, shouldn't it... The idea, therefore, that treasure -- be it in the form of magic, favors, etc. -- should affect APL is simply a bad one. There is no reasonable way to adjudicate it, and it shouldn't even be considered...
solbergb 02-09-06, 01:19 PM	Before replying, please just remind that we are discussing of the whole APL and EL system balance, and the assumption that mod writers are (often) under pressure to twist the EL calculations. Since I have seen no evidence that authors are under any pressure to twist EL calculations and in fact have evidence to the contrary (Circle member mentionioning how he playtests with core-only iconic characters, my conversations with damn near every local author, my own experiences as a minimission author and postings from authors puzzled why everyone thinks they stay up nights figuring out how to "twist" or "crank" the EL's), I have to conclude that your premise is flawed because your foundation is flawed. There may be authors who deliberately try to crank the EL, but in my experience, in every single case where I found an under-CR'd encounter, it was specific to the particular APL(s) involved (ie a scaling problem) or the author honestly didn't intend it to be that bad and his playtest groups had the right party mix/luck/etc to defeat it with only what seemed like moderate difficulty. I do actually contact authors to give feedback on encounters which my simulations (also with mostly iconic, PHB characters) had a death every time, or had a TPK in one test, or just seemed too weak for the situation...and we chat about what happened. I can guarantee you that every single author I have spoken to is not thinking at all about PC animal companions or bonded mounts when setting up an encounter, unless the terrain somehow restricts them. Things may be different in your region, but I'm boggled that this is even a consideration. Half the time the larger, more combat worthy animals can't fit into the dungeon/boat/tavern/teleport by NPC/etc anyway, or can't wander the streets of a city becaues they'll cause a riot or whatever.
solbergb 02-09-06, 01:21 PM	In that case, you'd have to start instituting player audits before every game to see what kind of favours and items they have and judge whether or not it affects the APL, up or down. Yeah, no kidding. Plus the build and the toys aren't what make a character effective. The player behind it has a profound influence on how much impact the character has. The build usually only shifts it up or down 20% from iconic, where the actions of the player can double or halve the effectiveness (or more). You can't measure player skill, or party cohesiveness/teamwork, and you shouldn't try.
fan_of_greyhawk 02-09-06, 05:46 PM	Hmm... And how would you calculate this "new" APL? In your example above, how is a "blessing" any different from the PC taking a feat that grants the same ability? Because the PC spends a feat, and thus does not have the same ability for FREE Say I have a favor that grants the PC the ability to cast a specific spell, one time only, as a spell-like ability, We are not speaking of one-time only features here, but permanent ones. The idea, therefore, that treasure -- be it in the form of magic, favors, etc. -- should affect APL is simply a bad one. There is no reasonable way to adjudicate it, and it shouldn't even be considered... So let us design 'nice ARs' that gives a PC a +1 inherent bonus to his higher class level, and because its a 'favor' we will still use his unmodified level for APL calculations purposes. If some publish enough of these ARs, a few will escape the review process and find their ways into the hands of 'happy' players!!! When you have a Lvl 10 Paladin with a CR10 mount, this is totally broken and we do need to find a way to fix this. Because if we don't fix this, the campaign will self-balance itself: just think to the principle of communicating vessels. If cheese is added one side of the equation, cheese will be added on the other side, no way to escape this. fan_of_greyhawk
Arvagor 02-09-06, 07:33 PM	fan_of_greyhawk, if you're going to quote me, then please remove your comments from within the actual quote and place them after my words, or break it apart as several separate quotes, please.
nony2klerch 02-09-06, 08:47 PM	VTF4-07 was one of the easiest of the VTF modules. We did have a cohort die (after being paralyzed by blasphemy, he died to an area effect spell since he didn't receive a saving throw). Speak for yourself Ed. We couldn't get past the "doorman" Otherwise known as the Huge Earth Elemental fighting us from the other side of a stone wall. We couldn't get close enough to the wall to do enough damage without getting pounded by said Earth Elemental. We ended up retreating APL 10 0 Gold 850 exp. As for animal companions...they don't become broke until the druid casts animal growth on them. Past APL 10 my paladin has become nothing but a support character...with or without the horse...I'm just slightly more effective with the horse (partly because of the other three attacks that it provides 3 more chances at a 20).
fan_of_greyhawk 02-09-06, 08:53 PM	fan_of_greyhawk, if you're going to quote me, then please remove your comments from within the actual quote and place them after my words, or break it apart as several separate quotes, please. Sorry, the text did not displayed as I intended. Another (simpler) solution would be to 1-Require PCs with Animals companions or mounts (and you may add familiars as well) to calculate the CR of their beloved pets... 2-Notice the GM of the CR value at the beginning of each game. 3- If the GM decides it's appropriate, he thus can make the needed ajustments to the APL (of course, there will be no adjustment if the CR is only the base DMG or PHB values). fan_of_greyhawk
Lupo 02-09-06, 09:09 PM	*sarcasm on, beware* yea make more paperwork, make a paperwork rpg game, where one has to chase the right piece of paper ;-), have a look at a certain rheinhard mey (frederic mey for the frenchs) song. *sarcasm off* no, actually there is enough complication for a druid to bring a decent animal companion at a table (not to mention silly ship captains who refuse to let ANY animal on their ship, or towns where a well trained and good natured little furrya dire soemthing brings the guards to steaming rage, oh and adevnture weriters who have included a NO-ANIMAL-COMPANION device somewhere deep in a dungeon. to have an animal companion with SOME additional beefing up isn't to bad. it's a class feature and already limited in lg, you almost have to go on a special mission to get a special animal access with the RIGHT character. not to mention that ranger's animals are not even speed bumps on apl8 plus tables. paladins are very restricted in their own way, (almost every paladin i have encountered was ripe for atonement at least). ciao martin m. player of a halfling druid on a dire-bat
A'Talsen 02-09-06, 09:34 PM	As for animal companions...they don't become broke until the druid casts animal growth on them. To take that quote out of context for a moment, it isn't animal companions that are 'broken' when you cast Animal Growth, it is the standard (non broken) effect of a 5th level spell. Animal growth is powerful, and even stripped of an animal companion to cast it on (celestial animal companions are magic beasts, not animals, for example) any druid can cast it on their summons. Heck, while I keep Animal Growth in reserve, I've never *needed* to cast it on my summons. But its there just in case I need to turn my Giant Crocodiles from Huge to Gargantuan... :evillaugh Michael "Fish" Murphy
fan_of_greyhawk 02-13-06, 08:17 AM	*sarcasm on, beware* yea make more paperwork, make a paperwork rpg game, where one has to chase the right piece of paper ;-), have a look at a certain rheinhard mey (frederic mey for the frenchs) song. *sarcasm off* no, actually there is enough complication for a druid to bring a decent animal companion at a table (not to mention silly ship captains who refuse to let ANY animal on their ship, or towns where a well trained and good natured little furrya dire soemthing brings the guards to steaming rage, oh and adevnture weriters who have included a NO-ANIMAL-COMPANION device somewhere deep in a dungeon. to have an animal companion with SOME additional beefing up isn't to bad. it's a class feature and already limited in lg, you almost have to go on a special mission to get a special animal access with the RIGHT character. not to mention that ranger's animals are not even speed bumps on apl8 plus tables. paladins are very restricted in their own way, (almost every paladin i have encountered was ripe for atonement at least). ciao martin m. player of a halfling druid on a dire-bat Yes, situations were your animal dude is not allowed is frustrating. Druid and rangers should have permission to stow animals companions into bags of holding or similar devices!! So they are always with their master!!! Maybe a spell of Disguise Animal??
fan_of_greyhawk 02-13-06, 08:29 AM	Speak for yourself Ed. We couldn't get past the "doorman" Otherwise known as the Huge Earth Elemental fighting us from the other side of a stone wall. We couldn't get close enough to the wall to do enough damage without getting pounded by said Earth Elemental. We ended up retreating APL 10 0 Gold 850 exp. As for animal companions...they don't become broke until the druid casts animal growth on them. Past APL 10 my paladin has become nothing but a support character...with or without the horse...I'm just slightly more effective with the horse (partly because of the other three attacks that it provides 3 more chances at a 20). Try play more Keoland Mods...they have some "nice ARs" for you there (if your character survive!!) Heard they have also a "good Paladin Metaorg there....."
redgamer 02-13-06, 10:57 AM	What metaorg is that? Keoland mods aren't that hard, err well some are. Most keoland mods aren't that hard, only one is easy. I'm told years 6s will be easier than year 5s.
Madfox11 02-13-06, 11:01 AM	Yes, situations were your animal dude is not allowed is frustrating. Baleful polymorph and reduce animal are druid spells. I don't think there are actually that many adventures that actively prohibit animal companions. The adventures tend to talk about size, and I don't blame ship captains refusing large predators on his ship, let alone huge animals. The same goes for cities. Huge Earth Elemental doorguard? We did had an earth elemental, though it was not at the entrance and it was destroyed in one round. Focussing on one opponent, and using ready actions can do wonders against opponents that hide in the wall (and still have to leave to attack others), and earth elementals do NOT have spring attack [theoretically they could attack while standing in the wall, but in that case they do have 50% miss chance since they do not see what they are attacking].
nony2klerch 02-13-06, 03:33 PM	Try play more Keoland Mods...they have some "nice ARs" for you there (if your character survive!!) Funny you should mention that....I played Predators and Prey shortly after 3.5 hit the streets...(mod was written for 3.0) during a Midnite Madness and the DM didn't want to do math to convert the encounter.... We fought the T-Rex of Legend calculated EL was 17 in 3.5 and we were apl 10..... Thank goodness for Acid Fog and Briar Web, 2 Blade Barriers another Acid Fog.....a whole bunch of other spells...it "ate" my mount until I dismissed it. And then IT came back for seconds... Did survive.... Lynn
redgamer 02-13-06, 03:38 PM	Always love to here about parties taking out APL+7 encounters without a character death. Or did you just not mention it?
paigeoliver 02-13-06, 04:35 PM	It seems to me like half of the core modules have anti-animal companion bits written in. "Its too cold and your animal companion won't come with you." "Its too hot and your animal companion won't come with you." "The people in charge of the griffins won't let them carry any animal companions, which won't matter since the end of this module autokills all APL 4 parties anyway.". "The city guard won't let any animals into the city." "The stable falls down and kills everyone's animal companions and mounts." Ok, this was a regional, not a core. The list goes on and on.
Lupo 02-13-06, 08:22 PM	It seems to me like half of the core modules have anti-animal companion bits written in. "Its too cold and your animal companion won't come with you." "Its too hot and your animal companion won't come with you." "The people in charge of the griffins won't let them carry any animal companions, which won't matter since the end of this module autokills all APL 4 parties anyway.". "The city guard won't let any animals into the city." "The stable falls down and kills everyone's animal companions and mounts." Ok, this was a regional, not a core. The list goes on and on. at least the first two should be overcome by an "endure elements" spell. and any writer or dm who is denying this trick might not see me again on his table or in one of his adventures. yea and one of those adventures where the party was carried by griffons, the damned griffons were actually calculated into the cr of a certain fight, for an apl +5 encounter (for really no sense, at low apls the party needs them, to survive at all, and at higher apl they are a hindrance, one third of my resources went into trying to keep at least the griffon riders alive, not to meniztion that they tended to fly away from the monster, at top speed, due to monster's special ability). so, simply adding a discrete number to an apl calculatoion really would make the mess bigger and more chaotic than clearing it. hm the last one is tricky, but my dire bat is used to pe parked at: temple towers, big trees outside the city walls, city wall towers, ship masts, entrances to dungeons, (btw therefore it has the "stay" trick :-)) yea and then there was this big city, where they would grant you access with your large animal, when you buy a big cage for it (actually i suspect the same cage on wheels they use for a certain cleric of tritherion ;-)) AND keep it inside cage. yea, my druid would love to have ANY template put on his animal companion :-), but the only one i have ever seen was on an AR of my cleric. ciao martin m.
nony2klerch 02-14-06, 11:44 AM	Always love to here about parties taking out APL+7 encounters without a character death. Or did you just not mention it? As a matter of fact I did. However, there are a couple of caveats to this encounter. (because not all APL + whatever encounters are not equal). We actually got some encounter distance. The monster was a melee combatant only. (no ranged/magic attacks) We kept it at range and pounded on it with ranged/magic attacks. (refer back to ACID FOG and the Blade Barrier(S). IT ATE my horse. The only reason it didn't die was I dismissed it. IT ATE me, the only reason I lived was a high level monk DDoor me out of the mouth before it swallowed me. It just took us a while to get through the 400 or so hit points. My horse was below 10 hp, I was in single digits several times, but had a high level cleric (hence the blade barriers) and even he was low on hit points (with a 30something AC). The monk used Spring attack and a potion of fly...and the Magic User used almost all of his spells (not sure about the 0's). We were completely depleted after the fight. A relatively balanced party, Good tactics and a limited combatant can allievate some EL differences... but would I want to do it again...no. Lynn
Arvagor 02-14-06, 11:56 AM	A relatively balanced party, Good tactics and a limited combatant can allievate some EL differences... but would I want to do it again...no. Mmm... Playing out of APL, what fun... Just one word, Lynn -- FLING!!! (Brian)
redgamer 02-14-06, 03:13 PM	This is why I feel many monsters without a ranged attack are under CRed. I been in lots of fights where it not for the fighter charging in we could have simple outran the enemy and take it down from range thus spending no resources other than arrows.
Mortepierre 02-14-06, 03:58 PM	Eh, try telling that to the two Dread Wraiths hiding (each on opposite sides) in the one and only corridor one has to take to reach a certain chamber (equipped with anti-teleport device, of course). No ranged attacks to speak of but their "I spring-attack you from inside the wall" melee attacks were hell. Would have loved to see an archer waste arrows on those...
gninja 02-14-06, 05:24 PM	Speaking for someone playing a Beastmaster/Arcane Hierophant with a "mod-breaking companion"... I say screw APL adjustments. When I play down, I make modules very easy. When I play my level, I'm just as effective as anyone else at the table. If I were to play up (apl 10 with level 8 character) I'd die. 26 hit points goes away very very fast.