AR access: Small, Medium, Large [Archive] - Wizards Community

AR access: Small, Medium, Large [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kjenks
02-02-06, 09:35 AM When item access is granted on an AR, what size is the item? Can we buy Small, Medium and Large versions of the item? This should be spelled out clearly in the LGCS.
Mortepierre
02-02-06, 09:37 AM Hmm, I think the "default" option is small/medium.

I have seen a few AR which specified "large" for certain items.
redgamer
02-02-06, 10:00 AM Small/Medium is the default. Large if you are a centaur. Anything else must be explicately stated.
Arvagor
02-02-06, 10:12 AM Perhaps the phrasing would be better suited to something like "Unless an AR grants access to an item of a specific size, all purchased items are the same size category as the PC's normal size (for example, humans may only purchase Medium items, halflings may only purchase Small items, and centaurs with 6 racial levels may only purchase Large items)."
redgamer
02-02-06, 10:37 AM That might be less confusing but it is also different. Currently Humans can buy small weapons and halfings can buy medium weapons. This becomes important for people without power attack but a high strength and two weapon fighters without all their feat yet.
GreySector
02-02-06, 10:39 AM The question of ammunition for unusually sized missile weapons came up on a list I subscribe to a while ago. If you gain access to (for example) a Large size composite longbow do you then also have to explicitly gain access to Large size arrows? If access to Large size ammunition is implicitly granted with access to the Large size missile weapon, does it share the frequency of the missile weapon access? If you run out of Large size ammunition is there any way to replenish your supply?

-Michael Eshleman
redgamer
02-02-06, 10:42 AM The consensus on that list was that there is no difference between arrows and bolts for different sized weapons. Thus you can't run out of access.
Howie23
02-02-06, 01:59 PM The question of ammunition for unusually sized missile weapons came up on a list I subscribe to a while ago. If you gain access to (for example) a Large size composite longbow do you then also have to explicitly gain access to Large size arrows? If access to Large size ammunition is implicitly granted with access to the Large size missile weapon, does it share the frequency of the missile weapon access? If you run out of Large size ammunition is there any way to replenish your supply?

-Michael Eshleman

I originated posts on the same topic (one of them the post referenced above?) because I recently wrote a large sized missile weapon into a mod without ammunition, because I have a PC that regularly plays in my games with a large sized missile weapon, and because I have a PC archer with access to large missile weapons (and arrows, luckily). I would suggest that there was limited discussion that died without concensus.

I think this is an issue. There is an errata being issued for at least two ARs to provide the ammunition access along with the projectile weapon access, precisely because that ammunition is required, and not provided via the LGCS. Per the PHB, arrows are purchased separately, and thus are not miscellaneous gear that comes with a missile weapon. Ammunition is sized, and varies by size in the damage that it does if used as an improvised weapon, and costs double what small/medium ammo costs. Unless a large centaur, LGCS access does not provide for large ammunition, as it specifies small/medium almost everywhere.

Clearly it is not the intent of authors to provide access to an item that is not usable. On the other hand, large ammunition is available through campaign documentation, or to Centaurs once they are large; not all AR access items are usable by all PCs. However, since regular ammunition is treated in a rather offhanded manner (part of upkeep), it creates a potential unintended trap for players who don't consider the ramifications of what their PCs purchase.

Once obtained, regular ammunition replenishment in LG is handled abstractly through lifestyle cost in order to avoid trivial record keeping. The language of the lifestyle section is ambiguous with respect to providing large sized ammunition. This is because it specifies only items found on PHB table 7-5; one must go to the table notes for large access, and the LGCS specifies small/medium pretty much everywhere else.

I am of the opinion that the current LGCS does not provide access to large ammunition, nor does AR access to a large projectile weapon, but that it is in the interest of the campaign to do so in order to avoid the record keeping associated with normal ammunition. If large sized ammunition is to be as readily available as small/medium, even for medium sized creatures who have large projectile weapon access, this needs to specified on the LGCS access list and/or the the upkeep ammunition replenishment clause.

Additionally, clarification needs to be made for silver/cold iron/mwk/+1 access for such items, if they are to be readily available for non-large creatures.

David Howard
kjenks
02-22-06, 12:18 AM This topic was not covered in the final LGCS 5.

In fact, it appears that we do not have access to buy small armor and shields. Or if we do, we also have access to buy large armor and shields because of the way the rules are stated in the LGCS.
Simpi
02-22-06, 04:33 AM Why do people desperately want access to large weapons? Why isn't enlarge person good enough?

S.H, the guy from Naerie
kegdrainer
02-22-06, 07:37 AM Maybe the players that run around enlarged what throwing weapons that do not change size when they throw them? They may also want guisarmes that do not shrink when they have to drop them for some reason.
Maesto
02-22-06, 07:42 AM Silliness...

You want to have a gargantuan weapon, 'coz then with monkey grip, when you're enlarged, you can use a weapon that does 4d6 damage with 10 (15?) ft reach with only a relatively small penalty to the to hit rolls ;-)
Iswald
02-22-06, 10:39 AM When you create a character, the LGCS says that you can purchase small or medium weapons. Later, it lists what items you can purchase from the PHB and explicity states that you can get medium and small armor from table 7-5.

But, the question is about armor, not weapons. When the LGCS was originally put together, I'm sure this wasn't an issue like it is now.
Itsa_Trika
02-22-06, 11:05 PM In fact, it appears that we do not have access to buy small armor and shields. Or if we do, we also have access to buy large armor and shields because of the way the rules are stated in the LGCS.

You must have access to buy Large weapons.
kjenks
02-22-06, 11:37 PM I'm looking at LGCS 5, page 15. I do not see specific access to buy small armor or small shields. All I see is access to buy "Anything in the PHB from the following tables:" ... "Table 7-6: Armor and Shields"

That table (at least the one in the SRD) has a footnote describing the weight of small or large versions of the armor, but I don't think that gives us access to buy small or large armor. And I don't see anything about small shields.

My PH is in another state (still), so I'm not sure if the SRD accurately reflects what's in the PH. So I could well be wrong.
Iswald
02-23-06, 09:29 AM If you just go with what the LGCS and PHB say, then you should be able to buy any size of armor. The most likely reason that weapons are limited is the monkey grip feat.

What happens if you gain a cohort that doesn't fit into the small or medium category?
Mortepierre
02-25-06, 04:24 AM The LGCS states:
.. you purchase character equipment from the trade goods, weapons (Small and Medium), armor, and goods and services sections of Chapter 7: Equipment in the PHB.

If you can purchase small and medium weapons, then it stand to reason you should also be able to buy small and medium armors, not to mention small goods. Common sense should prevail here, else gnome and halfling PC would have had a rough time for the last 5 years...
JamesMaissen
02-25-06, 05:13 AM I'm looking at LGCS 5, page 15. I do not see specific access to buy small armor or small shields. All I see is access to buy "Anything in the PHB from the following tables:" ... "Table 7-6: Armor and Shields"

That table (at least the one in the SRD) has a footnote describing the weight of small or large versions of the armor, but I don't think that gives us access to buy small or large armor. And I don't see anything about small shields.

As I understand it there is no restriction on the Armor and Shields table for the size we may purchase. This is limited to weapons solely.

Why this is such an issue to the powers that be, I cannot understand. It is part of the game. If one can purchase 2000gp magical weapons without restriction getting a weaponsmith to craft something that needs him to make a DC 13 or so check should not be problematic. Likewise it's not as if such access is never given.. only made infrequent to rare (depending on modules played) while many items that should be more scarce are a dime a dozen. On the mathematical side of it, power attack will achieve better results than monkey grip as well as allow one to vary said amount to suit the AC of the target. (To another poster, increased reach is dependant on the size of the wielder using an appropriately sized reach weapon and not merely a larger reach weapon as per the FAQ).

In conclusion the restriction is only upon the weapons table and it seems a silly restriction both in game and out of game to have,

James
Elf=Ponce
03-08-06, 08:24 PM We do that alot in my home game - monkey grip with a large sized weapon and then cast enlarge. 4d6 Damage with a Greatsword...

It's overpowering for GH, but you do get occasional access to large weapons.

I have access to a large spiked chain on one of my ARs - thats the type of thing you base a character on!!!
DuctShuiTengu
03-09-06, 10:27 AM We do that alot in my home game - monkey grip with a large sized weapon and then cast enlarge. 4d6 Damage with a Greatsword...

As opposed to power attacking for 2 with a large greatsword while enlarged. Same bonus to hit, but on average, you do about .5 extra damage. And you can increase or decrease how much you're power-attacking for to compensate for higher or lower ACs.

Really, the only time you benefit more from monkey grip than power attack is with either weapons that you can't power attack with, or the single-handed d10s like bastard swords and dwarven war-axes (an average of 3.5 more damage instead of 2). And even that one goes away if you switch to two-handing it (4 extra damage instead of 3.5).
Mommy was an Orc
03-09-06, 11:37 AM Why this is such an issue to the powers that be, I cannot understand. It is part of the game. If one can purchase 2000gp magical weapons without restriction getting a weaponsmith to craft something that needs him to make a DC 13 or so check should not be problematic.

The problem I think relates to Polymorph/Annis Hags or other things capable of wielding weapons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 02-02-06, 09:35 AM	When item access is granted on an AR, what size is the item? Can we buy Small, Medium and Large versions of the item? This should be spelled out clearly in the LGCS.
Mortepierre 02-02-06, 09:37 AM	Hmm, I think the "default" option is small/medium. I have seen a few AR which specified "large" for certain items.
redgamer 02-02-06, 10:00 AM	Small/Medium is the default. Large if you are a centaur. Anything else must be explicately stated.
Arvagor 02-02-06, 10:12 AM	Perhaps the phrasing would be better suited to something like "Unless an AR grants access to an item of a specific size, all purchased items are the same size category as the PC's normal size (for example, humans may only purchase Medium items, halflings may only purchase Small items, and centaurs with 6 racial levels may only purchase Large items)."
redgamer 02-02-06, 10:37 AM	That might be less confusing but it is also different. Currently Humans can buy small weapons and halfings can buy medium weapons. This becomes important for people without power attack but a high strength and two weapon fighters without all their feat yet.
GreySector 02-02-06, 10:39 AM	The question of ammunition for unusually sized missile weapons came up on a list I subscribe to a while ago. If you gain access to (for example) a Large size composite longbow do you then also have to explicitly gain access to Large size arrows? If access to Large size ammunition is implicitly granted with access to the Large size missile weapon, does it share the frequency of the missile weapon access? If you run out of Large size ammunition is there any way to replenish your supply? -Michael Eshleman
redgamer 02-02-06, 10:42 AM	The consensus on that list was that there is no difference between arrows and bolts for different sized weapons. Thus you can't run out of access.
Howie23 02-02-06, 01:59 PM	The question of ammunition for unusually sized missile weapons came up on a list I subscribe to a while ago. If you gain access to (for example) a Large size composite longbow do you then also have to explicitly gain access to Large size arrows? If access to Large size ammunition is implicitly granted with access to the Large size missile weapon, does it share the frequency of the missile weapon access? If you run out of Large size ammunition is there any way to replenish your supply? -Michael Eshleman I originated posts on the same topic (one of them the post referenced above?) because I recently wrote a large sized missile weapon into a mod without ammunition, because I have a PC that regularly plays in my games with a large sized missile weapon, and because I have a PC archer with access to large missile weapons (and arrows, luckily). I would suggest that there was limited discussion that died without concensus. I think this is an issue. There is an errata being issued for at least two ARs to provide the ammunition access along with the projectile weapon access, precisely because that ammunition is required, and not provided via the LGCS. Per the PHB, arrows are purchased separately, and thus are not miscellaneous gear that comes with a missile weapon. Ammunition is sized, and varies by size in the damage that it does if used as an improvised weapon, and costs double what small/medium ammo costs. Unless a large centaur, LGCS access does not provide for large ammunition, as it specifies small/medium almost everywhere. Clearly it is not the intent of authors to provide access to an item that is not usable. On the other hand, large ammunition is available through campaign documentation, or to Centaurs once they are large; not all AR access items are usable by all PCs. However, since regular ammunition is treated in a rather offhanded manner (part of upkeep), it creates a potential unintended trap for players who don't consider the ramifications of what their PCs purchase. Once obtained, regular ammunition replenishment in LG is handled abstractly through lifestyle cost in order to avoid trivial record keeping. The language of the lifestyle section is ambiguous with respect to providing large sized ammunition. This is because it specifies only items found on PHB table 7-5; one must go to the table notes for large access, and the LGCS specifies small/medium pretty much everywhere else. I am of the opinion that the current LGCS does not provide access to large ammunition, nor does AR access to a large projectile weapon, but that it is in the interest of the campaign to do so in order to avoid the record keeping associated with normal ammunition. If large sized ammunition is to be as readily available as small/medium, even for medium sized creatures who have large projectile weapon access, this needs to specified on the LGCS access list and/or the the upkeep ammunition replenishment clause. Additionally, clarification needs to be made for silver/cold iron/mwk/+1 access for such items, if they are to be readily available for non-large creatures. David Howard
kjenks 02-22-06, 12:18 AM	This topic was not covered in the final LGCS 5. In fact, it appears that we do not have access to buy small armor and shields. Or if we do, we also have access to buy large armor and shields because of the way the rules are stated in the LGCS.
Simpi 02-22-06, 04:33 AM	Why do people desperately want access to large weapons? Why isn't enlarge person good enough? S.H, the guy from Naerie
kegdrainer 02-22-06, 07:37 AM	Maybe the players that run around enlarged what throwing weapons that do not change size when they throw them? They may also want guisarmes that do not shrink when they have to drop them for some reason.
Maesto 02-22-06, 07:42 AM	Silliness... You want to have a gargantuan weapon, 'coz then with monkey grip, when you're enlarged, you can use a weapon that does 4d6 damage with 10 (15?) ft reach with only a relatively small penalty to the to hit rolls ;-)
Iswald 02-22-06, 10:39 AM	When you create a character, the LGCS says that you can purchase small or medium weapons. Later, it lists what items you can purchase from the PHB and explicity states that you can get medium and small armor from table 7-5. But, the question is about armor, not weapons. When the LGCS was originally put together, I'm sure this wasn't an issue like it is now.
Itsa_Trika 02-22-06, 11:05 PM	In fact, it appears that we do not have access to buy small armor and shields. Or if we do, we also have access to buy large armor and shields because of the way the rules are stated in the LGCS. You must have access to buy Large weapons.
kjenks 02-22-06, 11:37 PM	I'm looking at LGCS 5, page 15. I do not see specific access to buy small armor or small shields. All I see is access to buy "Anything in the PHB from the following tables:" ... "Table 7-6: Armor and Shields" That table (at least the one in the SRD) has a footnote describing the weight of small or large versions of the armor, but I don't think that gives us access to buy small or large armor. And I don't see anything about small shields. My PH is in another state (still), so I'm not sure if the SRD accurately reflects what's in the PH. So I could well be wrong.
Iswald 02-23-06, 09:29 AM	If you just go with what the LGCS and PHB say, then you should be able to buy any size of armor. The most likely reason that weapons are limited is the monkey grip feat. What happens if you gain a cohort that doesn't fit into the small or medium category?
Mortepierre 02-25-06, 04:24 AM	The LGCS states: .. you purchase character equipment from the trade goods, weapons (Small and Medium), armor, and goods and services sections of Chapter 7: Equipment in the PHB. If you can purchase small and medium weapons, then it stand to reason you should also be able to buy small and medium armors, not to mention small goods. Common sense should prevail here, else gnome and halfling PC would have had a rough time for the last 5 years...
JamesMaissen 02-25-06, 05:13 AM	I'm looking at LGCS 5, page 15. I do not see specific access to buy small armor or small shields. All I see is access to buy "Anything in the PHB from the following tables:" ... "Table 7-6: Armor and Shields" That table (at least the one in the SRD) has a footnote describing the weight of small or large versions of the armor, but I don't think that gives us access to buy small or large armor. And I don't see anything about small shields. As I understand it there is no restriction on the Armor and Shields table for the size we may purchase. This is limited to weapons solely. Why this is such an issue to the powers that be, I cannot understand. It is part of the game. If one can purchase 2000gp magical weapons without restriction getting a weaponsmith to craft something that needs him to make a DC 13 or so check should not be problematic. Likewise it's not as if such access is never given.. only made infrequent to rare (depending on modules played) while many items that should be more scarce are a dime a dozen. On the mathematical side of it, power attack will achieve better results than monkey grip as well as allow one to vary said amount to suit the AC of the target. (To another poster, increased reach is dependant on the size of the wielder using an appropriately sized reach weapon and not merely a larger reach weapon as per the FAQ). In conclusion the restriction is only upon the weapons table and it seems a silly restriction both in game and out of game to have, James
Elf=Ponce 03-08-06, 08:24 PM	We do that alot in my home game - monkey grip with a large sized weapon and then cast enlarge. 4d6 Damage with a Greatsword... It's overpowering for GH, but you do get occasional access to large weapons. I have access to a large spiked chain on one of my ARs - thats the type of thing you base a character on!!!
DuctShuiTengu 03-09-06, 10:27 AM	We do that alot in my home game - monkey grip with a large sized weapon and then cast enlarge. 4d6 Damage with a Greatsword... As opposed to power attacking for 2 with a large greatsword while enlarged. Same bonus to hit, but on average, you do about .5 extra damage. And you can increase or decrease how much you're power-attacking for to compensate for higher or lower ACs. Really, the only time you benefit more from monkey grip than power attack is with either weapons that you can't power attack with, or the single-handed d10s like bastard swords and dwarven war-axes (an average of 3.5 more damage instead of 2). And even that one goes away if you switch to two-handing it (4 extra damage instead of 3.5).
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-06, 11:37 AM	Why this is such an issue to the powers that be, I cannot understand. It is part of the game. If one can purchase 2000gp magical weapons without restriction getting a weaponsmith to craft something that needs him to make a DC 13 or so check should not be problematic. The problem I think relates to Polymorph/Annis Hags or other things capable of wielding weapons.