Armor Spikes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor Spikes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saitov
06-20-06, 12:07 PM I was working on a grappler-oriented fighter for Living Greyhawk, but I ran into several problems involving spiked armor. I need a few clarifications on LG rules if anyone thinks that they can help me out.

1) The PHB says that I have to buy enhancements for my armor and my spikes separately; say I had masterwork armor w/o masterwork spikes, would I have to buy a new suit of armor in order to get masterwork spikes or could I somehow "upgrade" the ones I already have?

2) Spikes add 50gp to the cost of the armor. Do I factor that additional 50gp in when I'm buying enhancements that affect the armor alone?

3) How would Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization work? Since my grappling does damage when I'm wearing the spikes, can I get WS for grappling? If I got WF or WS for the spikes, I'm assuming that they would only apply when I'm making a non-grappling attack with the spikes rather than applying to grappling rolls, is that correct?

Thanks for your patience.
CSHunt68
06-20-06, 02:29 PM I was working on a grappler-oriented fighter for Living Greyhawk, but I ran into several problems involving spiked armor. I need a few clarifications on LG rules if anyone thinks that they can help me out.

1) The PHB says that I have to buy enhancements for my armor and my spikes separately; say I had masterwork armor w/o masterwork spikes, would I have to buy a new suit of armor in order to get masterwork spikes or could I somehow "upgrade" the ones I already have?
Normal items cannot be upgraded to masterwork. If you buy masterwork armour with regular spikes, you're out of luck. Just buy both armour and spikes as masterwork and you'll have no issues around upgrading.

2) Spikes add 50gp to the cost of the armor. Do I factor that additional 50gp in when I'm buying enhancements that affect the armor alone?
No. Although, when you're upgrading the armour, the cost of the armour itself typically isn't a factor anyway. That is, upgrading from +1 to +2 armour costs 3000 gp (4000-1000) regardless of whether it's leather, chain mail, or spiked half-plate.

3) How would Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization work? Since my grappling does damage when I'm wearing the spikes, can I get WS for grappling? If I got WF or WS for the spikes, I'm assuming that they would only apply when I'm making a non-grappling attack with the spikes rather than applying to grappling rolls, is that correct?
I don't believe you can take either Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization in "grappling" since it's not a weapon, and a grapple check isn't an attack roll. I believe you are correct in your last statement.
Prochytes
06-20-06, 02:49 PM I don't believe you can take either Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization in "grappling" since it's not a weapon, and a grapple check isn't an attack roll. I believe you are correct in your last statement.

From the PH (p102), under "Weapon Focus":

"....You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple... as your weapon for the purposes of this feat".
CSHunt68
06-20-06, 11:23 PM I guess so.
It's neither a weapon ("Choose one type of weapon, such as a greataxe."), nor an attack roll ("Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.") ... but you can take Weapon Focus in it.
lol
Apparently, it also applies to Weapon Specialization.
Have at it.
Tungar
06-26-06, 07:19 AM Weapon focus (grapple) only affect the touch attack to begin grapple, not the grapple checks.
solbergb
06-30-06, 08:20 PM It is actually unclear what they intended with weapon focus grapple. People say like they know, but the reality is that the game designers don't seem to agree on whether or not Grapple is an attack roll (but the current sage says it is not, so in LG it is not). This is not the only thing like this in D&D 3.5, see also how many designers say "swift action stuff from wands/scrolls is std action" but the author of Complete Adventurer put in a bunch of swift action, personal-only, lasts-only-one-round spells on wands.

Avoid table variation and don't use it. Instead, if you are using armor spikes for damage, get weapon focus and spec armor spikes. You'll get your +2 damage how ever you use them. (although you won't get much benefit from weapon focus, except when you are punching with the spikes).

As someone playing a L12 grappler monk, be sure you can also do other things in combat than grapple. Some enemies simply can't be grappled (too big, too strong/high bab, freedom of movement, incorporeal), and while grapple is a very effective way to limit mobility of an enemy and to prevent him from attacking anybody but you, it is NOT a fast way to kill things.

If you grapple something, it is usually the party that kills it. They either kill it fast so you can grab something else, or they ignore the monster you are holding and kill its friends, getting around to it last.

Usually it is better to pin the bad guy than to do damage to him (both is good when you have iteratives, but the important thing is to prevent the counterattack or escape). Pinned he can't cast verbal spells, escape artist doesn't get him out of the grapple, he can't just hit you and he needs to beat you twice in grapple check to get out of the grapple.

Because of this, it is more important for a grappler to find ways to be big, strong and high BAB (ie high grapple check) than to do a lot of damage in the grapple (weapon spec, expensive armor spikes, etc). The point of grapple is to lock down the enemy, not to kill him quick.

The good news is that a big, strong, high BAB grappler needs only one feat to be a decent "just kill them" guy too...power attack. Make room for it and you'll be good when you can grapple and good when you can't.
windmarkbob
07-03-06, 10:50 AM The rules say that you get an "additional" d6+STR with a successful grapple attack. Does this damage come during only the hold step of the initial grapple, the "do damage" option on later successful grapple rounds, or both? How does having masterwork spikes affect the grappling, if at all, or does it only affect the to hit result when using them without grappling? Depending on how it works, I may or may not try to go for some holy armor spikes down the road.

The reason I'm asking is that we've been playing it that I currently do the 1d3 non-lethal damage and the additional 1d6 lethal on the successful hold since it does say "additional" in the rules. Also we've been saying that I can either use them to attack during the grapple and not have to roll an opposed grapple check, or roll the grapple check and hope for another 1d3 non-lethal, and 1d6 addtional lethal damage by wrestling them onto the spikes during the "bear-hug".

Thanks

Thanks
solbergb
07-05-06, 01:42 PM The faq clarifies that you get:

EITHER your unarmed strike damage

OR your spikes damage.

We used to argue a lot about that wording on Infinite Monkeys, but with the current FAQ entry on the topic, there isn't any ambiguity.
kjenks
07-06-06, 08:23 AM Yes, there's still some ambiguity, mostly because that 3.5e FAQ entry didn't address the change in armor spike rules from 3e to 3.5e. The FAQ entry might be construed as adding more options to grappling. In addition to the PH rules which say that you inflict unarmed strike and extra piercing damage, the FAQ rule might allow you to inflict less damage, either unarmed strike or piercing.

The FAQ entry does not clearly state that it is changing the PH rules for armor spikes. I suspect that Skip Williams, who wrote that FAQ entry, did not realize that armor spikes changed from 3e to 3.5e, addng the word "extra" to the description.
solbergb
07-06-06, 02:53 PM I dunno. Since that faq ruling I have not seen any table anywhere which ran the spikes any differently from what the FAQ says.

Folks do sometimes willfully ignore the FAQ, usually citing "it isn't supposed to change core rules". They aren't supposed to but you can get table variation on any topic. Recently magic missile didn't work on mirror images at one table, the judge saying "I know the faq says it, but it is stupid" pretty much.

We won anyway. He was a good judge otherwise. Some battles aren't worth fighting.
JamesMaissen
07-06-06, 06:09 PM The faq clarifies that you get:

EITHER your unarmed strike damage

OR your spikes damage.

We used to argue a lot about that wording on Infinite Monkeys, but with the current FAQ entry on the topic, there isn't any ambiguity.

The FAQ says that you can make a grapple check to damage a foe with your spikes (ie spikes +STR) but doesn't say that you cannot grapple for damage as stated in the PhB as unarmed strike + STR (as whatever the unarmed strike counts as) +d6 lethal piercing (plus whatever else the spikes might count as) for having armor spikes.

Depending on what you are fighting you may wish to forgoe the unarmed strike damage to deal damage via the armor spikes. You may need their material type (say cold iron, adamantine, or silver), their damaging type (lethal piercing), or enchantments on the armor spikes (magical, holy) to penetrate DR and want your STR bonus damage to be of that type rather than what your unarmed strike does. As well you may wish enhancement bonuses (and specialization bonuses) to your Armor spikes to add to damage which they would not when using them for 'extra' damage.

But I don't see where the FAQ says that you cannot use them as the PhB says that you can. I think that's reading in to them which seems wrong.

-James
Mommy was an Orc
07-06-06, 06:32 PM But I don't see where the FAQ says that you cannot use them as the PhB says that you can. I think that's reading in to them which seems wrong.

-James

When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe(see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a grapple check....You can’t attack with two weapons when grappling, even when one of those weapons is armor spikes (see the section on grappling in
Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook).

Using unarmed strike is the use of a weapon. Armor spikes don't say in addition to whatever weapon damage you do - the average person does 1d3 non-lethal with their hands - for them, armor spikes is extra damage.
kjenks
07-07-06, 08:00 AM Using unarmed strike is the use of a weapon. Armor spikes don't say in addition to whatever weapon damage you do - the average person does 1d3 non-lethal with their hands - for them, armor spikes is extra damage.

Extra damage dice have a specific meaning in the game. The word "extra" is not a synonym for "additional."

As an example, a Spirited Charge + grapple would inflict double damage, but extra damage dice are added after "multiplication."
clannagh
07-09-06, 08:15 PM slightly off topic

but is there anything in the rules to prevent spikes being "added" or "removed" from armor or a shield willy nilly ?
solbergb
07-10-06, 01:19 PM The right question is "are there ANY rules for adding or removing armor spikes from existing armor"

The answer is "No".

So it is safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time (or spikes and shield). Saves hassle with audits and such, and you know you're covered.
clannagh
08-07-06, 03:01 AM The right question is "are there ANY rules for adding or removing armor spikes from existing armor"

The answer is "No".

So it is safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time (or spikes and shield). Saves hassle with audits and such, and you know you're covered.

Well the description in the PHB does say "You can have spikes ADDED to your armor ... " and does not specifically say they must be added at the time of first purchase.

Fluffwise the armor spikes could easily screw in, a bit like football boot sprigs.

Overall though I agree .. its safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time.
paigeoliver
08-07-06, 05:59 PM I don't own a lot of armor spikes. But the ones I do own were simply purchased as armor spikes with no destinction. No that I ever used them...
Vash Woodshadow
08-24-06, 03:23 PM No it would work with thoughs feats, becuse you have to roll a hit to attack with armor spikes, and you can use armor spikes outside of a grapple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saitov 06-20-06, 12:07 PM	I was working on a grappler-oriented fighter for Living Greyhawk, but I ran into several problems involving spiked armor. I need a few clarifications on LG rules if anyone thinks that they can help me out. 1) The PHB says that I have to buy enhancements for my armor and my spikes separately; say I had masterwork armor w/o masterwork spikes, would I have to buy a new suit of armor in order to get masterwork spikes or could I somehow "upgrade" the ones I already have? 2) Spikes add 50gp to the cost of the armor. Do I factor that additional 50gp in when I'm buying enhancements that affect the armor alone? 3) How would Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization work? Since my grappling does damage when I'm wearing the spikes, can I get WS for grappling? If I got WF or WS for the spikes, I'm assuming that they would only apply when I'm making a non-grappling attack with the spikes rather than applying to grappling rolls, is that correct? Thanks for your patience.
CSHunt68 06-20-06, 02:29 PM	I was working on a grappler-oriented fighter for Living Greyhawk, but I ran into several problems involving spiked armor. I need a few clarifications on LG rules if anyone thinks that they can help me out. 1) The PHB says that I have to buy enhancements for my armor and my spikes separately; say I had masterwork armor w/o masterwork spikes, would I have to buy a new suit of armor in order to get masterwork spikes or could I somehow "upgrade" the ones I already have? Normal items cannot be upgraded to masterwork. If you buy masterwork armour with regular spikes, you're out of luck. Just buy both armour and spikes as masterwork and you'll have no issues around upgrading. 2) Spikes add 50gp to the cost of the armor. Do I factor that additional 50gp in when I'm buying enhancements that affect the armor alone? No. Although, when you're upgrading the armour, the cost of the armour itself typically isn't a factor anyway. That is, upgrading from +1 to +2 armour costs 3000 gp (4000-1000) regardless of whether it's leather, chain mail, or spiked half-plate. 3) How would Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization work? Since my grappling does damage when I'm wearing the spikes, can I get WS for grappling? If I got WF or WS for the spikes, I'm assuming that they would only apply when I'm making a non-grappling attack with the spikes rather than applying to grappling rolls, is that correct? I don't believe you can take either Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization in "grappling" since it's not a weapon, and a grapple check isn't an attack roll. I believe you are correct in your last statement.
Prochytes 06-20-06, 02:49 PM	I don't believe you can take either Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization in "grappling" since it's not a weapon, and a grapple check isn't an attack roll. I believe you are correct in your last statement. From the PH (p102), under "Weapon Focus": "....You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple... as your weapon for the purposes of this feat".
CSHunt68 06-20-06, 11:23 PM	I guess so. It's neither a weapon ("Choose one type of weapon, such as a greataxe."), nor an attack roll ("Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.") ... but you can take Weapon Focus in it. lol Apparently, it also applies to Weapon Specialization. Have at it.
Tungar 06-26-06, 07:19 AM	Weapon focus (grapple) only affect the touch attack to begin grapple, not the grapple checks.
solbergb 06-30-06, 08:20 PM	It is actually unclear what they intended with weapon focus grapple. People say like they know, but the reality is that the game designers don't seem to agree on whether or not Grapple is an attack roll (but the current sage says it is not, so in LG it is not). This is not the only thing like this in D&D 3.5, see also how many designers say "swift action stuff from wands/scrolls is std action" but the author of Complete Adventurer put in a bunch of swift action, personal-only, lasts-only-one-round spells on wands. Avoid table variation and don't use it. Instead, if you are using armor spikes for damage, get weapon focus and spec armor spikes. You'll get your +2 damage how ever you use them. (although you won't get much benefit from weapon focus, except when you are punching with the spikes). As someone playing a L12 grappler monk, be sure you can also do other things in combat than grapple. Some enemies simply can't be grappled (too big, too strong/high bab, freedom of movement, incorporeal), and while grapple is a very effective way to limit mobility of an enemy and to prevent him from attacking anybody but you, it is NOT a fast way to kill things. If you grapple something, it is usually the party that kills it. They either kill it fast so you can grab something else, or they ignore the monster you are holding and kill its friends, getting around to it last. Usually it is better to pin the bad guy than to do damage to him (both is good when you have iteratives, but the important thing is to prevent the counterattack or escape). Pinned he can't cast verbal spells, escape artist doesn't get him out of the grapple, he can't just hit you and he needs to beat you twice in grapple check to get out of the grapple. Because of this, it is more important for a grappler to find ways to be big, strong and high BAB (ie high grapple check) than to do a lot of damage in the grapple (weapon spec, expensive armor spikes, etc). The point of grapple is to lock down the enemy, not to kill him quick. The good news is that a big, strong, high BAB grappler needs only one feat to be a decent "just kill them" guy too...power attack. Make room for it and you'll be good when you can grapple and good when you can't.
windmarkbob 07-03-06, 10:50 AM	The rules say that you get an "additional" d6+STR with a successful grapple attack. Does this damage come during only the hold step of the initial grapple, the "do damage" option on later successful grapple rounds, or both? How does having masterwork spikes affect the grappling, if at all, or does it only affect the to hit result when using them without grappling? Depending on how it works, I may or may not try to go for some holy armor spikes down the road. The reason I'm asking is that we've been playing it that I currently do the 1d3 non-lethal damage and the additional 1d6 lethal on the successful hold since it does say "additional" in the rules. Also we've been saying that I can either use them to attack during the grapple and not have to roll an opposed grapple check, or roll the grapple check and hope for another 1d3 non-lethal, and 1d6 addtional lethal damage by wrestling them onto the spikes during the "bear-hug". Thanks Thanks
solbergb 07-05-06, 01:42 PM	The faq clarifies that you get: EITHER your unarmed strike damage OR your spikes damage. We used to argue a lot about that wording on Infinite Monkeys, but with the current FAQ entry on the topic, there isn't any ambiguity.
kjenks 07-06-06, 08:23 AM	Yes, there's still some ambiguity, mostly because that 3.5e FAQ entry didn't address the change in armor spike rules from 3e to 3.5e. The FAQ entry might be construed as adding more options to grappling. In addition to the PH rules which say that you inflict unarmed strike and extra piercing damage, the FAQ rule might allow you to inflict less damage, either unarmed strike or piercing. The FAQ entry does not clearly state that it is changing the PH rules for armor spikes. I suspect that Skip Williams, who wrote that FAQ entry, did not realize that armor spikes changed from 3e to 3.5e, addng the word "extra" to the description.
solbergb 07-06-06, 02:53 PM	I dunno. Since that faq ruling I have not seen any table anywhere which ran the spikes any differently from what the FAQ says. Folks do sometimes willfully ignore the FAQ, usually citing "it isn't supposed to change core rules". They aren't supposed to but you can get table variation on any topic. Recently magic missile didn't work on mirror images at one table, the judge saying "I know the faq says it, but it is stupid" pretty much. We won anyway. He was a good judge otherwise. Some battles aren't worth fighting.
JamesMaissen 07-06-06, 06:09 PM	The faq clarifies that you get: EITHER your unarmed strike damage OR your spikes damage. We used to argue a lot about that wording on Infinite Monkeys, but with the current FAQ entry on the topic, there isn't any ambiguity. The FAQ says that you can make a grapple check to damage a foe with your spikes (ie spikes +STR) but doesn't say that you cannot grapple for damage as stated in the PhB as unarmed strike + STR (as whatever the unarmed strike counts as) +d6 lethal piercing (plus whatever else the spikes might count as) for having armor spikes. Depending on what you are fighting you may wish to forgoe the unarmed strike damage to deal damage via the armor spikes. You may need their material type (say cold iron, adamantine, or silver), their damaging type (lethal piercing), or enchantments on the armor spikes (magical, holy) to penetrate DR and want your STR bonus damage to be of that type rather than what your unarmed strike does. As well you may wish enhancement bonuses (and specialization bonuses) to your Armor spikes to add to damage which they would not when using them for 'extra' damage. But I don't see where the FAQ says that you cannot use them as the PhB says that you can. I think that's reading in to them which seems wrong. -James
Mommy was an Orc 07-06-06, 06:32 PM	But I don't see where the FAQ says that you cannot use them as the PhB says that you can. I think that's reading in to them which seems wrong. -James When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe(see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a grapple check....You can’t attack with two weapons when grappling, even when one of those weapons is armor spikes (see the section on grappling in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). Using unarmed strike is the use of a weapon. Armor spikes don't say in addition to whatever weapon damage you do - the average person does 1d3 non-lethal with their hands - for them, armor spikes is extra damage.
kjenks 07-07-06, 08:00 AM	Using unarmed strike is the use of a weapon. Armor spikes don't say in addition to whatever weapon damage you do - the average person does 1d3 non-lethal with their hands - for them, armor spikes is extra damage. Extra damage dice have a specific meaning in the game. The word "extra" is not a synonym for "additional." As an example, a Spirited Charge + grapple would inflict double damage, but extra damage dice are added after "multiplication."
clannagh 07-09-06, 08:15 PM	slightly off topic but is there anything in the rules to prevent spikes being "added" or "removed" from armor or a shield willy nilly ?
solbergb 07-10-06, 01:19 PM	The right question is "are there ANY rules for adding or removing armor spikes from existing armor" The answer is "No". So it is safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time (or spikes and shield). Saves hassle with audits and such, and you know you're covered.
clannagh 08-07-06, 03:01 AM	The right question is "are there ANY rules for adding or removing armor spikes from existing armor" The answer is "No". So it is safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time (or spikes and shield). Saves hassle with audits and such, and you know you're covered. Well the description in the PHB does say "You can have spikes ADDED to your armor ... " and does not specifically say they must be added at the time of first purchase. Fluffwise the armor spikes could easily screw in, a bit like football boot sprigs. Overall though I agree .. its safest to buy the spikes and armor at the same time.
paigeoliver 08-07-06, 05:59 PM	I don't own a lot of armor spikes. But the ones I do own were simply purchased as armor spikes with no destinction. No that I ever used them...
Vash Woodshadow 08-24-06, 03:23 PM	No it would work with thoughs feats, becuse you have to roll a hit to attack with armor spikes, and you can use armor spikes outside of a grapple.