Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 03-30-07, 10:57 AM	I noticed that under the monster description, all Animated Objects have Hardness (Ex). So does this mean if your attacking, say an animated steel trash can (with bludgeoning or slashing, non-adamantine weapon), you would subtract 10 points from every physical attack? Also I know that using magic or energy (acid, alchemist's fire) to attack objects vary in effectiveness but I cannot find the rules where this is mentioned, could anyone point me to the relevant section? And would this reduction also apply to an animated object? Thanks.
Maesto 03-30-07, 11:09 AM	I hate this section of the rules. But anyway: All animated objects have hardness, depending on the material they are made out of. The hardness of various materials is scattered all over the place, although generally, steel = 10, stone = 8, adamantine = 20, mithril = 15(?), etc. There's a list in the PHB somewhere - I think it's the chapter on adventuring. How force damage and elemental damage interacts with hardness is described in the FAQ. Basically, only adamantine ignores hardness (and only hardness of 19 or less). Various elemental damages get halved (or even quartered) before applying hardness, and hardness applies against force effects also. Sorry, I can't be stuffed looking up the page number, but you should be able to find it by searching in the FAQ.
thorinXXX 03-30-07, 03:53 PM	ACtually, they are now creatures of the construct subtype. What they have is DR/- where DR=hardness of non-animated item. And, as creatures they are affected by energy normally.
Rerednaw 03-30-07, 04:25 PM	ACtually, they are now creatures of the construct subtype. What they have is DR/- where DR=hardness of non-animated item. And, as creatures they are affected by energy normally. I could not find a reference in the MM errata, where is this rule please? Thanks.
Maesto 03-30-07, 07:58 PM	Umm, I'm fairly sure that that's not true... Animated objects are constructs with hardness, not DR. Please provide a page number if the contrary is true, and I will stand corrected.
thorinXXX 03-31-07, 01:22 PM	Can anyone find where hardness is defined as a creature ability? Since animated objects have been given an ability with no definition it is open to interpretation. The closest defined ability is DR. In fact DR/Adamantine is closer than DR/-, so I must ammend my statement. Of course, since it is open to interpretation your opinion may differ. The rules for spell interaction with animated objects is on pg 61 of the FAQ. The short version is that animated objects take full damage from all elemental attacks, but apply hardness as a universal resistance.
Arvagor 03-31-07, 01:41 PM	Can anyone find where hardness is defined as a creature ability?It doesn't need to be defined as a creature ability in general, nor is it really open to interpretation -- animated objects have it defined in their description:Hardness (Ex): An animated object has the same hardness it had before it was animated (see Table 9-9 and Table 9-11, page 166 of the Player's Handbook, for the hardness of some common substances and objects).
awroe 04-01-07, 03:46 AM	Since animated objects have been given an ability with no definition it is open to interpretation. The closest defined ability is DR. In fact DR/Adamantine is closer than DR/-, so I must ammend my statement. Of course, since it is open to interpretation your opinion may differ. Hardness is very similar to DR - for weapon damage purposes, it works as DR/Adamantine unless the object is made of Adamantine (or something with 20+hardness), at which it acts as DR/-. But the fact that it could be two different types of DR demonstrates one reason why it isn't the same.
King Kashue 04-01-07, 11:30 AM	Can anyone find where hardness is defined as a creature ability? Since animated objects have been given an ability with no definition it is open to interpretation. It doesn't need to be defined as a creature ability in general, nor is it really open to interpretation -- animated objects have it defined in their description: Indeed, it's the exact opposite of "an ability with no definition" :D it's explicitly defined in the creature entry and it even has a cross-reference to another rules entry for further clarification...
thorinXXX 04-01-07, 01:58 PM	An animated chair is a creature, not an object. Thus you use the rules for creatures, not objects. For example, you cannot magic missile a chair, but you can magic missile an amimated chair. Hardness is listed as a property of animated objects, but is not defined, as a creature ability anywhere. Using the hardness rules for objects is implied, but not stated. What other rules for objects should we use instead of the rules for creatures. Is it unattended, an so receives no saves? Can I sunder it using the object rules for sundering instead if its listed hit points? That is the problem with iplied rules rather than explicit ones. Rereading the relevant material, and applying Occam's Razor, using the harness rules for objects is the correct way to go.
Arvagor 04-01-07, 02:28 PM	Hardness is listed as a property of animated objects, but is not defined, as a creature ability anywhere.We already provided you the definition in the context of the creature, and a page reference for the relevant rules text; is there a reason you're ignoring it?
clannagh 04-02-07, 01:44 AM	The last time we came across this ( a mod with no DR specified for an animated statue but a hardness listed) we end up deciding for quickness of play (being midnight and all) to rule that the hardness only applied when it was unanimated and work it out at a more reasonable time. I am not sure if that decision was correct but the particular critter (60 odd hit points and hardness 6 in an APL2 game) would have been exceptionally nasty at APL2 if hardness does indeed count as DR6 adamantine even when animated.
thorinXXX 04-02-07, 12:11 PM	We already provided you the definition in the context of the creature, and a page reference for the relevant rules text; is there a reason you're ignoring it? Yes, because in the section given it is for objects, not creatures. Animated objects, despite the name, are creatures. Until there is an errata, or one of the later monster books includes an entry on hardness; it is an undefined term for creatures. The FAQ would have been a much better reference to cite because it pretty much says that we will use the implied definition.
pedr 04-02-07, 12:32 PM	Buh? The Special Qualities in the MM are definitive. They say what they mean (tho sometimes, as with Improved Grab, you also have to read the longer description in the glossary). An animated object is a creature with hardness. This is odd, admittedly, but lots of SQs are odd. An animated object is a creature which is effected by attacks as if it were still an object with hardness. That's what the entry says - no implication is necessary. Does it suck? Sure, but that's because the hardness (particularly the hardness+energy) rules are pretty weak. But they are the rules and I don't see any way anyone can possibly see that they aren't.
haferka 04-02-07, 07:47 PM	Smart druids with plenty of buff time can benifit from these rules... Animate Wood plus a Spikes = a nice flank buddy for the Druid... Make a wooden train with wheels for the focus of the spell :) that way it gets more movement... or.. cast animate wood & spikes on a lit torch... then cast animate fire while it is in melee.. to give it a flank buddy :) or.. cast animate water on your holywater.. for a safe way to kill incorporeal undead... Animated Objects are a fun way to use low level druid spell slots :)
Arvagor 04-02-07, 07:56 PM	or.. cast animate water on your holywater.. for a safe way to kill incorporeal undead...Do you regularly carry around 30 gallons of holy water? Or ~113 liters, if you prefer metric; either way, its at least 239 flasks of holy water, since animate water requires at least 4 cubic feet of water to work... ;)
King Kashue 04-02-07, 09:21 PM	Yes, because in the section given it is for objects, not creatures. No, it's given in the creature entry... The fact that it references another section doesn't matter, since it's explicitly part of the creature entry.
haferka 04-02-07, 10:06 PM	Do you regularly carry around 30 gallons of holy water? Or ~113 liters, if you prefer metric; either way, its at least 239 flasks of holy water, since animate water requires at least 4 cubic feet of water to work... ;) You are correct.. I was reading the Spell target: "up to 5' cube of water", and failing to read the full desctiption... 240 flasks X 25gp = 6000gp :( yikes... but you still need something to hold all that holy water.. according to google.. a barrel = 117 litters... weight = 30lb (barrel) + 240lb (water) ==> 270lb (yikes.. might need some help carrying that around) I am seriously considering this investment for my Druid.. he has already had to leave 1 mod to evade a crazy ghost. As long as you order the water back into the barrel before the spell ends you will keep your investment of holy water.
Gallaway 04-03-07, 02:55 AM	You are correct.. I was reading the Spell target: "up to 5' cube of water", and failing to read the full desctiption... 240 flasks X 25gp = 6000gp :( yikes... but you still need something to hold all that holy water.. according to google.. a barrel = 117 litters... weight = 30lb (barrel) + 240lb (water) ==> 270lb (yikes.. might need some help carrying that around) I am seriously considering this investment for my Druid.. he has already had to leave 1 mod to evade a crazy ghost. As long as you order the water back into the barrel before the spell ends you will keep your investment of holy water. Which brings up the interesting issue when does holy water stop being holy ? Clearly one drop of normal water in 5 cubic feet shouldnt stop it being holy Then again one drop of holy water in 5 cubic feet should not make it become holy either !! what about 50:50 or does it just loose its eficacy and become more holy than normal water but not entirely holy ? its a bit like the old Sorites heap problem for basic philosophy 101
trollbill 04-03-07, 09:48 AM	Note that because Animated Objects are creatures, not objects, they take full damage from all elemental effects (after reduction for Hardness since, unlike DR, energy effects do not bypass Hardness) rather than 1/2 for Fire & Electricity and 1/4 for cold.
Rerednaw 04-03-07, 10:14 AM	Smart druids with plenty of buff time can benifit from these rules... Animate Wood plus a Spikes = a nice flank buddy for the Druid... Make a wooden train with wheels for the focus of the spell :) that way it gets more movement... or.. cast animate wood & spikes on a lit torch... then cast animate fire while it is in melee.. to give it a flank buddy :) or.. cast animate water on your holywater.. for a safe way to kill incorporeal undead... Animated Objects are a fun way to use low level druid spell slots :) Uh...isn't Animate Wood have a duration: Concentration? How are you casting a second spell?
Timlagor 04-03-07, 10:52 AM	In D&D the Holy Water questions are easy. Each flask does 1d6 damage (i think) and then it's used up its holuness.
thorinXXX 04-03-07, 04:26 PM	No, it's given in the creature entry... The fact that it references another section doesn't matter, since it's explicitly part of the creature entry. Listed, yes. Defined, no. Using the table I know that an animated chair has a hardness of 5. Now, what does hardness 5 mean for a creature? Without the FAQ there is nothing to state how hardness interacts with anything for creatures. As I said earlier, if we are applying some rules for objects to creatures why are we not applying them all?
trollbill 04-03-07, 04:45 PM	Listed, yes. Defined, no. Using the table I know that an animated chair has a hardness of 5. Now, what does hardness 5 mean for a creature? Without the FAQ there is nothing to state how hardness interacts with anything for creatures. As I said earlier, if we are applying some rules for objects to creatures why are we not applying them all? Because the rules only state you apply that one. Animated Objects are constructs with this special ability that mimics the special ability of non-animated objects.
haferka 04-03-07, 10:07 PM	[/SIZE] Uh...isn't Animate Wood have a duration: Concentration? How are you casting a second spell? Cast Spikes first.. then cast animate wood.. forget about the animate fire on a lit torch.. it doesnt work.. since the spell requires a campfire or larger fire.. In D&D the Holy Water questions are easy. Each flask does 1d6 damage (i think) and then it's used up its holuness. Actually.. nothing states that it is less holy after use than before.. its just not normally possible to recover the holy water...
Gwumph 04-03-07, 11:00 PM	Actually If you want to get really crazy..... Get the feat "Sanctify Water" ....Only catch is you need turn attempts to get the feat. but if you do get the feat "you infuse all the water around you with positive energy, making it have the same effect as holy water" It doesn't get an exact radius, but it does say that all evil creatures within 20ft take immidiate damage as if struck by holy water. It also last for 1+Cha modifer rounds. So put 1 or 2 barrels of water on a pack mule and away you go. instant mobile holy water hitting guys (IMOHWAHG for short :D )
Arvagor 04-03-07, 11:07 PM	Actually.. nothing states that it is less holy after use than before.. its just not normally possible to recover the holy water...I think it's very clearly implied that the "holiness" is used up - after all, creatures that are damaged by holy water do not take damage each round until they dry off...
Gwumph 04-03-07, 11:27 PM	except for the water by the sanctify feat..... it clearly states that water continues to holy damage per round :D
Southernskies 04-03-07, 11:59 PM	Here's an interesting idea: Use sanctify water on summoned water elementals. Would that work? (I don't have SpC).
Gwumph 04-04-07, 12:06 AM	I am thinking it would. It would make their attacks holy (as in a blessed weapon) and do an extra d6 damage per attack against creatures sensitive to holy water
Arvagor 04-04-07, 12:34 AM	Here's an interesting idea: Use sanctify water on summoned water elementals. Would that work? (I don't have SpC).Sanctify Water is a feat, not a spell. It wouldn't work on water elementals of any kind - the Sanctify Water feat specifically states, "You can call upon positive energy to momentarily transform normal water around you into holy water", and water elementals are most certainly not normal water. It also seems quite clear that the feat works when the person activating it is in the water, as in submerged, not just on any old flask of water lying around within 20 feet.If you did allow it to work on carried flasks, then it also seems clear that, while the water is infused with positive energy, it is not nearly at the potency that a "normal" flask of holy water would have, since a totally submerged creature still only takes damage as if hit by a single flask of holy water (1d6). Yes, it can deal damage over multiple rounds, but I can throw holy water flasks over the same number of rounds, deal the same damage as the feat, and use a lot less water in the process... ;)
Gwumph 04-04-07, 01:08 AM	Arvagor, let me first say I will never use this feat, nor know anyone that will, I just pointed it out for use with animate object. That said lets discuss it!!! First off, they only use the word "normal water" in the theatric description of the feat. Not in the rules section of the feat. In the rules section of the feat it just says water. For my argument, that the theatric description does not apply, look at the feat above Sanctify Water. Sailors Balance: You are experienced with the rolling decks of ships and maintain strong footing even in terrible storms. Benifit: +5 to balance checks while on a deck or in the rigging of a ship. Whatever is said in the theatric description of a feat, does not apply to rules. It is in the Benifits that rules applying to the feat are laid out, and in the benifit section it says "water", not "normal water" While one could use it under water, that is not stated or implied, the feat would work well for anyone standing in water, standing in a rainstorm, maybe even standing in mist cloud. It also clearly says which has the same effect of holy water so it's not less effective I have played in a couple of mods were the party is wading through a shallow pool and suddenly several undead spring out form the water to attack. It you have a decent charisma, you could do 4 or 5 rounds of D6 damage per creature. That said I would be very very surprised if I ever saw a PC with this feat.
Arvagor 04-04-07, 09:07 AM	For my argument, that the theatric description does not apply [...]You seem to have confused me with someone who doesn't think the "theatrics" section applies... :) What point are you trying to illustrate with your example? The feat says "rolling decks of the ship" in the flavor text, and the benefit says you gain the bonus to Balance while on a ship... ;)
Rerednaw 04-04-07, 09:41 AM	...That said I would be very very surprised if I ever saw a PC with this feat. I'll be surprised if I ever see this as access on an AR. :) That being said I could see a flavor build taking this.
Gwumph 04-05-07, 12:31 AM	Arvagor What I was trying to say is that in the rules section of the feat (i.e. Benifits) it doesn't say "normal water" it just says "water" It only says "normal water" in the theatric description of the feat, therefore your argument that this feat could not effect a water elemental is in my opinion wrong. :) Redenaw I just played in a core mod 2 weeks ago where you got access to this feat. So yes there is access.
Arvagor 04-05-07, 08:34 AM	It only says "normal water" in the theatric description of the feat, therefore your argument that this feat could not effect a water elemental is in my opinion wrong. :)I know what you were trying to say... And I believe the flavor text does apply, therefore your argument that this feat can effect a water elemental is, in my opinion, wrong. There is support in the Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes that the substance of which elemental creatures are made is not, in fact, the same as their Oerthly counterparts (i.e., elemental fire is not the same as the fire produced by a torch or campfire, etc.). So let's drop it, because you won't convince me otherwise... :duel: "Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." - Rudyard Kipling
haferka 04-05-07, 09:50 AM	I know what you were trying to say... And I believe the flavor text does apply, therefore your argument that this feat can effect a water elemental is, in my opinion, wrong. There is support in the Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes that the substance of which elemental creatures are made is not, in fact, the same as their Oerthly counterparts (i.e., elemental fire is not the same as the fire produced by a torch or campfire, etc.). So let's drop it, because you won't convince me otherwise... :duel: "Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." - Rudyard Kipling Actually, the spell is NOT a summoning.. so it is not a standard elemental. It is simply a "special" animated object.. I really think they need to errata this spell to say that "it acts as a Small Water Elemental". If they were to errata the spell..
Arvagor 04-05-07, 01:05 PM	Actually, the spell is NOT a summoning.. so it is not a standard elemental. It is simply a "special" animated object.. I really think they need to errata this spell to say that "it acts as a Small Water Elemental". If they were to errata the spell..I think we had long since moved the discussion past animate water...