Attacks gained from TWF can be used in a grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacks gained from TWF can be used in a grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Halworth
11-12-06, 10:41 PM Maybe. Maybe not.

EVVRYONE agrees the total number of attacks gained from your BAB can be 'converted" in to grapple checks.

Everyone agrees grapple checks are NOT attacks.

Grapple check = BAB + Str Bonus + Size Modifier + Improved Grapple Bonus

Fuzzy time.

Most people believe the number attacks gained from BAB + those gained from flurry can be 'converted' into grapple checks.

At lower levels there is a penalty to your attack when a monk uses her flurry. Most people believe if you can 'convert' attacks gained from flurry the penalty does not transfer over.

Most people believe the attack gained from haste can also be converted to a grapple check.

Most people believe the additional attacks gained from Two Weapon Fighting cannot be 'converted' to grapple checks.

Why not?

Most people will site the PHB p.156 under Grapple Checks

"You can't ATTACK with two weapons while grappling, even if both are both are light weapons."

As everyone knows grapple checks are NOT attacks and would not be limited by this statement.

Others would say attacks that can be 'converted' to grapple checks are only those gained by BAB, and not Flurry, Haste or TWF.

And for the FEW purist I would agree that argument is SOLID.

However the majority of people believe you can convert attacks from Haste and Flurry, but not TWF. Why not?

My personal opinion is that however many attacks you are normally entitled as a full attack that is how many grapple checks your are entitled to.

I am in the minority.

What do you think, and why?

Attacks gained from TWF converted into grapple checks "yeah" or "Nay", what say you?
_m_
11-12-06, 11:19 PM is it just me, or is this like the 11th thread about this.?
ShinAkuma2
11-12-06, 11:21 PM You can't simply declare two-weapon fighting without something to use as your off-hand weapon.

Those attacks specifically must be made with an off-hand weapon, even if you are a flurrying Monk, who normally doesn't have an off-hand.

Also, I'd like to point out that, since a Monk's FoB is an altered BAB sequence, the "penalties" do apply to grapple checks. For ease of play, they are listed as -2 or -1, depending on your level, but they are given as an alternative BAB sequence. As such, you either have a BAB of 0 or -2/-2 (at 1st level), and your grapple is BAB+Str, ie 0+Str, or -2+Str/-2+Str.
Howie23
11-13-06, 12:37 AM Most people believe the additional attacks gained from Two Weapon Fighting cannot be 'converted' to grapple checks.

Let's start with: TWF doesn't give you any additional attacks. Rather, it reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons.

David
Halworth
11-13-06, 12:39 AM You can't simply declare two-weapon fighting without something to use as your off-hand weapon.

I like that reasoning

Also, I'd like to point out that, since a Monk's FoB is an altered BAB sequence, the "penalties" do apply to grapple checks. For ease of play, they are listed as -2 or -1, depending on your level, but they are given as an alternative BAB sequence. As such, you either have a BAB of 0 or -2/-2 (at 1st level), and your grapple is BAB+Str, ie 0+Str, or -2+Str/-2+Str.

An altered BAB sequence? What does that mean?

PHB shows it as an Extraordinary Ability, like a barbarians rage.

To quote the PHB p.40
Flurry of Blows(Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on table 3-10:The monk.

The underlined portion implies the table 3-10 is simply adding the penalties to your BAB for you to reduce confusion(when this ability first came out it was quite confusing)

But your BAB does not change becuase of this Extraordibnary ability any more than your BAB changes when you take a -2 penalty for being sickened. During levels 1-4 you receive a -2 penalty to all attacks for a round when you flurry.

I can't think of anything, feat, spell, Ex, Su ability that changes a PC's BAB. There are penalties and bonuses to be sure but nothing that changes a BAB
clik_ml
11-13-06, 02:35 AM The only problem I believe is that since you can't TWF attack in grapples, then the case could be made that there are no TWF attacks available that can be swapped into grapple checks.

I see no problem with TWFing while unarmed in general however, since most people have two fists and two legs and elbows and headbutts, etc, and thus are not wanting for a second natural weapon to attack with.

There is the conundrum of what two do with a TWFing grappler who starts out TWFing and tries to initiate a grapple.

There's lots of possible answers, and I don't really like any of them.

a) those TWF attacks are lost once grappling has commenced (along with their penalty?)
b) initiating a grapple cannot be done while TWFing
c) the TWF attacks may only be used for grapple checks and not attacks

"a" is confusing and just doesn't work well

"b" is harsh, possibly too harsh

"c" seems to go against the notion that one does not have the capability to TWF when in grapples, and it in fact encourages everyone to TWF when grappling since there is no penalty to grapple checks associated with TWFing (and anyone may at least take 1 extra TWF attack, since the feat only lessens the penalty for doing so as Howie astutely pointed out)
denny1824
12-01-06, 09:05 PM There is the conundrum of what two do with a TWFing grappler who starts out TWFing and tries to initiate a grapple.

*If* I was the DM, I would rule that if you have not used your off hand attack by the time you are in a Grapple, then you are no longer able to use the off hand attack due to the grapple. You would still suffer the penalty to all your attacks for TWF (because you started your full round action fighting with two weapons). You could use your off hand attack to start a grapple but would lose any more off hand attacks (from Improved and Greater TWF) once you take hold in the grapple (Hold is step 3, p 156 PHB).

I would also like to note that in a grapple you can attack your opponent with a -4 to hit *or* damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. Since you cannot attack with two weapons in a grapple, I would not allow you to replace one of those attacks with a grapple check.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halworth 11-12-06, 10:41 PM	Maybe. Maybe not. EVVRYONE agrees the total number of attacks gained from your BAB can be 'converted" in to grapple checks. Everyone agrees grapple checks are NOT attacks. Grapple check = BAB + Str Bonus + Size Modifier + Improved Grapple Bonus Fuzzy time. Most people believe the number attacks gained from BAB + those gained from flurry can be 'converted' into grapple checks. At lower levels there is a penalty to your attack when a monk uses her flurry. Most people believe if you can 'convert' attacks gained from flurry the penalty does not transfer over. Most people believe the attack gained from haste can also be converted to a grapple check. Most people believe the additional attacks gained from Two Weapon Fighting cannot be 'converted' to grapple checks. Why not? Most people will site the PHB p.156 under Grapple Checks "You can't ATTACK with two weapons while grappling, even if both are both are light weapons." As everyone knows grapple checks are NOT attacks and would not be limited by this statement. Others would say attacks that can be 'converted' to grapple checks are only those gained by BAB, and not Flurry, Haste or TWF. And for the FEW purist I would agree that argument is SOLID. However the majority of people believe you can convert attacks from Haste and Flurry, but not TWF. Why not? My personal opinion is that however many attacks you are normally entitled as a full attack that is how many grapple checks your are entitled to. I am in the minority. What do you think, and why? Attacks gained from TWF converted into grapple checks "yeah" or "Nay", what say you?
_m_ 11-12-06, 11:19 PM	is it just me, or is this like the 11th thread about this.?
ShinAkuma2 11-12-06, 11:21 PM	You can't simply declare two-weapon fighting without something to use as your off-hand weapon. Those attacks specifically must be made with an off-hand weapon, even if you are a flurrying Monk, who normally doesn't have an off-hand. Also, I'd like to point out that, since a Monk's FoB is an altered BAB sequence, the "penalties" do apply to grapple checks. For ease of play, they are listed as -2 or -1, depending on your level, but they are given as an alternative BAB sequence. As such, you either have a BAB of 0 or -2/-2 (at 1st level), and your grapple is BAB+Str, ie 0+Str, or -2+Str/-2+Str.
Howie23 11-13-06, 12:37 AM	Most people believe the additional attacks gained from Two Weapon Fighting cannot be 'converted' to grapple checks. Let's start with: TWF doesn't give you any additional attacks. Rather, it reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons. David
Halworth 11-13-06, 12:39 AM	You can't simply declare two-weapon fighting without something to use as your off-hand weapon. I like that reasoning Also, I'd like to point out that, since a Monk's FoB is an altered BAB sequence, the "penalties" do apply to grapple checks. For ease of play, they are listed as -2 or -1, depending on your level, but they are given as an alternative BAB sequence. As such, you either have a BAB of 0 or -2/-2 (at 1st level), and your grapple is BAB+Str, ie 0+Str, or -2+Str/-2+Str. An altered BAB sequence? What does that mean? PHB shows it as an Extraordinary Ability, like a barbarians rage. To quote the PHB p.40 Flurry of Blows(Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on table 3-10:The monk. The underlined portion implies the table 3-10 is simply adding the penalties to your BAB for you to reduce confusion(when this ability first came out it was quite confusing) But your BAB does not change becuase of this Extraordibnary ability any more than your BAB changes when you take a -2 penalty for being sickened. During levels 1-4 you receive a -2 penalty to all attacks for a round when you flurry. I can't think of anything, feat, spell, Ex, Su ability that changes a PC's BAB. There are penalties and bonuses to be sure but nothing that changes a BAB
clik_ml 11-13-06, 02:35 AM	The only problem I believe is that since you can't TWF attack in grapples, then the case could be made that there are no TWF attacks available that can be swapped into grapple checks. I see no problem with TWFing while unarmed in general however, since most people have two fists and two legs and elbows and headbutts, etc, and thus are not wanting for a second natural weapon to attack with. There is the conundrum of what two do with a TWFing grappler who starts out TWFing and tries to initiate a grapple. There's lots of possible answers, and I don't really like any of them. a) those TWF attacks are lost once grappling has commenced (along with their penalty?) b) initiating a grapple cannot be done while TWFing c) the TWF attacks may only be used for grapple checks and not attacks "a" is confusing and just doesn't work well "b" is harsh, possibly too harsh "c" seems to go against the notion that one does not have the capability to TWF when in grapples, and it in fact encourages everyone to TWF when grappling since there is no penalty to grapple checks associated with TWFing (and anyone may at least take 1 extra TWF attack, since the feat only lessens the penalty for doing so as Howie astutely pointed out)
denny1824 12-01-06, 09:05 PM	There is the conundrum of what two do with a TWFing grappler who starts out TWFing and tries to initiate a grapple. If I was the DM, I would rule that if you have not used your off hand attack by the time you are in a Grapple, then you are no longer able to use the off hand attack due to the grapple. You would still suffer the penalty to all your attacks for TWF (because you started your full round action fighting with two weapons). You could use your off hand attack to start a grapple but would lose any more off hand attacks (from Improved and Greater TWF) once you take hold in the grapple (Hold is step 3, p 156 PHB). I would also like to note that in a grapple you can attack your opponent with a -4 to hit or damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. Since you cannot attack with two weapons in a grapple, I would not allow you to replace one of those attacks with a grapple check.