Bear's Endurance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bear's Endurance... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
10-09-07, 12:30 PM Ran into this at Gencon but forgot about it until now.

Cleric was down so the wizard cast Bear's Endurance on the main tank. The DM said okay, his hit point cap is increased, but he does not get any healing. The next attack killed the main tank.

Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up.

Anyone?
pedr
10-09-07, 12:46 PM When your constitution modifier changes, your hitpoints change. For every 1 point your constitution modifier changes, you gain or lose 1 hit point per Hit Die. I don't have my books here, but see as evidence: the Constitution entry in the Abilities chapter of the PH, the Barbarian's rage ability, the Poison section of the DMG (or PH, I forget), perhaps the Bull's Strength spell itself and so on and so forth. There are probably other examples. Note that you also cannot receive fewer than 1 hit point per hit die - not relevant in this situation, but relevant in cases of Constitution-loss: a wizard with a Con of 2 has 1 hit point per hit die, even though his constitution penalty is equal to or greater than the hit points rolled/received at each level.

It is not 'healing', per se, nor is it temporary hit points: this is a real change to hit points which lasts as long as the spell does. In essence, both the cap and the current number of hit points changes by the same amount.

One caveat: this does not (now) apply to the change in Constitution due to polymorph or polymorph-like abilities, but this is the only situation (I believe) where a change in Constitution does not directly lead to a change in hit points.
JamesMaissen
10-09-07, 08:05 PM Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up.

Anyone?

You track damage taken. That doesn't change. CON changes dynamically change the Hitpoints.

The same way that one looses hps when poison does CON damage, or a wraith drains CON, when a barbarian rages or a CON buff is applied the hps raise.

Keep track of damage dealt and it's not hard to handle.

-James
Mommy was an Orc
10-09-07, 08:18 PM Ran into this at Gencon but forgot about it until now.

Cleric was down so the wizard cast Bear's Endurance on the main tank. The DM said okay, his hit point cap is increased, but he does not get any healing. The next attack killed the main tank.

Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up.

Anyone?

You should have gotten hit points. Of course, if the tank has lost 20 hp, he's still lost 20 hp.

That was being pretty hard as a DM, too - when the player thinks something is supposed to happen, but I as a DM rule against it, I generally don't force them to take that exact action regardless. Especially when my ruling helps lead to a PC death.

Probably a point in time for an appeal to a senior DM.
jstorrie
10-09-07, 09:35 PM Technically speaking you don't really 'lose hit points' in most cases. Your Fighter 10, say, has 100 hit points. If he's swatted by a Balor for 50, he still has 100 hit points. He also has 50 points of lethal damage. If at any time your lethal damage + nonlethal damage is equal to your hit points, you're staggered; if it's greater, you're unconscious; if your lethal damage is greater than your hit points, you may need to stabilize; and if your lethal damage is 10 or more greater than your hit points, you're dead.

If you keep this in mind the Bear's Endurance situation is a clear-cut case. Your buddy had, say, 100 hit points and had taken 80 points of damage. Bear's Endurance increases his hit points to 120 or whatever; his damage stays the same. He hasn't been healed, technically speaking, because his damage hasn't changed, but he can take another 20 more points of damage before his condition changes to staggered or worse.
kjenks
10-09-07, 10:33 PM Probably a point in time for an appeal to a senior DM.

When I'm running the convention, any PC death is an automatic appeal to the senior GM. If a PC dies, I want to make sure everything's kosher.
Timlagor
10-11-07, 02:09 PM 1) The GM in question was completely unjustified.
2) Pedr's caveat about polymorph was actually wrong. It's Wildshape and other 'alternate form' effects that don't grant additional HP due to Con changes. (and of course Polymorph isn't in LG any more)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 10-09-07, 12:30 PM	Ran into this at Gencon but forgot about it until now. Cleric was down so the wizard cast Bear's Endurance on the main tank. The DM said okay, his hit point cap is increased, but he does not get any healing. The next attack killed the main tank. Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up. Anyone?
pedr 10-09-07, 12:46 PM	When your constitution modifier changes, your hitpoints change. For every 1 point your constitution modifier changes, you gain or lose 1 hit point per Hit Die. I don't have my books here, but see as evidence: the Constitution entry in the Abilities chapter of the PH, the Barbarian's rage ability, the Poison section of the DMG (or PH, I forget), perhaps the Bull's Strength spell itself and so on and so forth. There are probably other examples. Note that you also cannot receive fewer than 1 hit point per hit die - not relevant in this situation, but relevant in cases of Constitution-loss: a wizard with a Con of 2 has 1 hit point per hit die, even though his constitution penalty is equal to or greater than the hit points rolled/received at each level. It is not 'healing', per se, nor is it temporary hit points: this is a real change to hit points which lasts as long as the spell does. In essence, both the cap and the current number of hit points changes by the same amount. One caveat: this does not (now) apply to the change in Constitution due to polymorph or polymorph-like abilities, but this is the only situation (I believe) where a change in Constitution does not directly lead to a change in hit points.
JamesMaissen 10-09-07, 08:05 PM	Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up. Anyone? You track damage taken. That doesn't change. CON changes dynamically change the Hitpoints. The same way that one looses hps when poison does CON damage, or a wraith drains CON, when a barbarian rages or a CON buff is applied the hps raise. Keep track of damage dealt and it's not hard to handle. -James
Mommy was an Orc 10-09-07, 08:18 PM	Ran into this at Gencon but forgot about it until now. Cleric was down so the wizard cast Bear's Endurance on the main tank. The DM said okay, his hit point cap is increased, but he does not get any healing. The next attack killed the main tank. Is this how the spell is supposed to work? At my tables I have always granted the extra hit points when someone's constitution goes up. Anyone? You should have gotten hit points. Of course, if the tank has lost 20 hp, he's still lost 20 hp. That was being pretty hard as a DM, too - when the player thinks something is supposed to happen, but I as a DM rule against it, I generally don't force them to take that exact action regardless. Especially when my ruling helps lead to a PC death. Probably a point in time for an appeal to a senior DM.
jstorrie 10-09-07, 09:35 PM	Technically speaking you don't really 'lose hit points' in most cases. Your Fighter 10, say, has 100 hit points. If he's swatted by a Balor for 50, he still has 100 hit points. He also has 50 points of lethal damage. If at any time your lethal damage + nonlethal damage is equal to your hit points, you're staggered; if it's greater, you're unconscious; if your lethal damage is greater than your hit points, you may need to stabilize; and if your lethal damage is 10 or more greater than your hit points, you're dead. If you keep this in mind the Bear's Endurance situation is a clear-cut case. Your buddy had, say, 100 hit points and had taken 80 points of damage. Bear's Endurance increases his hit points to 120 or whatever; his damage stays the same. He hasn't been healed, technically speaking, because his damage hasn't changed, but he can take another 20 more points of damage before his condition changes to staggered or worse.
kjenks 10-09-07, 10:33 PM	Probably a point in time for an appeal to a senior DM. When I'm running the convention, any PC death is an automatic appeal to the senior GM. If a PC dies, I want to make sure everything's kosher.
Timlagor 10-11-07, 02:09 PM	1) The GM in question was completely unjustified. 2) Pedr's caveat about polymorph was actually wrong. It's Wildshape and other 'alternate form' effects that don't grant additional HP due to Con changes. (and of course Polymorph isn't in LG any more)