Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 10:10 PM	Ok, so far all I can come up with are Enlarge Person, Greater Magic Weapon, and Mending. There just don't seem to be enough single target spells with a range greater than touch...I know chained enlarge person is the same level as mass enlarge, but you can save a level with metamagic school focus....So what other buff spells are good for chaining?
JamesMaissen 03-12-07, 10:51 PM	Ok, so far all I can come up with are Enlarge Person, Greater Magic Weapon, and Mending. There just don't seem to be enough single target spells with a range greater than touch...I know chained enlarge person is the same level as mass enlarge, but you can save a level with metamagic school focus....So what other buff spells are good for chaining? I've had fun with Grease, Command Undead, Dispel Magic as well as a few others. Yes there's a good limitation on the applicability of the metamagic, but it tends to work decently. -James
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 11:12 PM	I've had fun with Grease, Command Undead, Dispel Magic as well as a few others. Yes there's a good limitation on the applicability of the metamagic, but it tends to work decently. -James Chained Targeted dispel magic is pretty cool. Unless you are a 20 INT grey elf, single target things with saves probably aren't worth it. Any other good buffs? Chained Reduce Person too....though probably not useful as often...
lunarfish 03-12-07, 11:29 PM	Chained Dominate Person (with MM School Focus) is a great way to predominate a party, and to jack up an enemy in a party vs. party encounter. It's better on a wizard, but my Enchanter cleric will definitely use this tactic. Chain Wrack was also pretty cute - I especially enjoy the story of a fellow adventurer (a 20 int Grey Elf wizard) Chain Wracking an entire village in Ket after he was completely sick of being treated as property by a party member. It's a great story, and after hearing it, several of my own characters have given him newfound respect. However, for general use, Chain is best left to buffing - GMW and Magic Vestment are tremendous targets, and Shield of Faith is good, too.
Lomiat 03-12-07, 11:35 PM	Same player who ran the grey elf wizard with the volatile reaction to Ket also runs a cleric who used Chain Shatter as his "Detect Magical Weapon" spell. I haven't double-checked the rules, but the idea was that non-magical weapons don't get saves and are automatically destroyed. Again, that's what happened, but I haven't bothered digging into the spell description. Chain Silence can be fairly brutal, btw. Any object-targeted area-effect spell, really, can be made somewhat abusive with Chain.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 11:49 PM	Chained Dominate Person (with MM School Focus) is a great way to predominate a party, and to jack up an enemy in a party vs. party encounter. It's better on a wizard, but my Enchanter cleric will definitely use this tactic. Chain Wrack was also pretty cute - I especially enjoy the story of a fellow adventurer (a 20 int Grey Elf wizard) Chain Wracking an entire village in Ket after he was completely sick of being treated as property by a party member. It's a great story, and after hearing it, several of my own characters have given him newfound respect. However, for general use, Chain is best left to buffing - GMW and Magic Vestment are tremendous targets, and Shield of Faith is good, too. Unfortunately Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment are only touch range and therefore can't be chained...Chained Dismissal could be handy, especially if you have some caster level bumps...Chained silence doesn't work because silence doesn't have a target entry...Chained Wrack is REALLY evil...seriously, a PC doing that to a village should definately be pulled...
Munkwunk 03-13-07, 01:26 AM	Same player who ran the grey elf wizard with the volatile reaction to Ket also runs a cleric who used Chain Shatter as his "Detect Magical Weapon" spell. I haven't double-checked the rules, but the idea was that non-magical weapons don't get saves and are automatically destroyed. Off the top of my head (i.e. I haven't looked it up either) I believe attended objects, even nonmagical ones, ALWAYS receive a saving throw. Another great spell to chain, provided your DCs are fairly high? Unluck.
jstorrie 03-13-07, 02:21 AM	If your DCs are high, Chain can be better than twin. Metamagic School Focus, plus Spell/Greater Spell Focus, plus specialization on a high-int character can make for some really wreckage.
jstorrie 03-13-07, 03:12 AM	For a wizard or specialist with Metamagic School Focus, the best picks would be: Divination: 6: chained unluck Transmutation: 3: chained animate rope (best if you have a cohort or pal to throw them all immediately after you cast), chained enlarge person, chained magic weapon (ghosts at APL4? no problem.) 5: chained greater magic weapon (depending on your group) 8: chained flesh to stone Enchantment: 3: chained charm person 4: chained tasha's hideous laughter (very powerful) 5: chained hold person, chained suggestion 6: chained charm monster 7: chained dominate person, chained feeblemind (for taking out groups of casters), chained hold monster Necromancy: 3: chained cause fear (APL 2-4) 4: chained blindness/deafness 8: chained eyebite (expect table variation) Abjuration: 7: chained dismissal (if you know you'll be facing many outsiders today) Personally, I'd only consider picking this up for a specialist transmuter, a specialist enchanter, and/or a support caster who has Magic of the Land (Mass Enlarge + Mass Cure Light Wounds? Sure!) You could make a pretty fierce enchanter this way: Human 1 Enchanter: Scribe Scroll, Metamagic School Focus, Retributive Spell 2 Enchanter 3 Enchanter: Chain Spell 4 Enchanter 5 Enchanter: Unsettling Enchantment 6 Enchanter: Spell Focus: Enchantment 7 Enchanter 8 Enchanter 9 Enchanter: Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment 10 Enchanter: Alacritous Cogitation 11 Fatespinner 12 Fatespinner: Quicken Spell 13 Fatespinner 14 Fatespinner 15 Fatespinner: Spell Penetration There are variations (you might want to be able to Still, Silent your Charm Persons, for social situations) but I definitely think the combination of Chain and Unsettling Enchantment works very well, especially if you spin it up and follow it with a quickened spell to take advantage of the -2 saves penalty. Retributive I just like, though Extend may be more useful.
Timlagor 03-13-07, 07:05 AM	Chained Wrack is REALLY evil...seriously, a PC doing that to a village should definately be pulled... I'd note it on an AR but that's not the same at all. (remember that Judges can't pull characters any more) Given that this was an Elf in Ket I can entirely sympathise and he didn't do any lasting harm. I think your actions have to have consequences beyond the next two minutes to really warrant being turned to evil on the spot.
solbergb 03-13-07, 09:48 AM	I've used chain mage hand and chain open/close sometimes. Chain levitate is my version of mass fly Plus you know...chain mending and chain GMW, like the OP said. I considered chain shatter too, for use on unattended objects. It won't do much to attended objects due to a save of only 12+stat on primary and 7+stat on secondary targets plus magical objects being immune. I use arcane sight to spot magic items, it's more reliable. I also considered chain dispel magic (multiple targeted dispels, or target the buffs and every magic item the guy is carrying) It actually doesn't work on that many spells that aren't hammered by low saves. (3 less than top tier because metamagic, and then 5 additional less if not primary target). It's only a good feat if you have the right spells, or if you're getting it from a rod.
LachlarlanIII 03-13-07, 09:58 AM	I like Chained Unluck ;)
evilaustintom 03-13-07, 11:11 AM	Take a level of archmage, and make all of your touch spells ranged. Then all those touch spells you can chain. That really opens up stuff. Of course, that's not until you are a 14th level wizard. You could take the Reach Spell feat, but that really jacks up the spell level. I don't think keen (edge?) was mentioned. Just using chain spell normally, I once baleful polymorphed a mob in a bar into turtles. I paid the bartender 20 gold to watch them for a day while we worked out the town problem, then came back and returned them to their normal forms. T'was an amusing game. Also, the prestige class out of Heroes of Battle "War Weaver" gives longer ranges to all of your spells (even making touch spells ranged). That's only a 5th level ability for it (10th level PC), but a NONC class. Tom Thowe
taylorj 03-13-07, 12:35 PM	Also, the prestige class out of Heroes of Battle "War Weaver" gives longer ranges to all of your spells (even making touch spells ranged). That's only a 5th level ability for it (10th level PC), but a NONC class. Tom Thowe I've never seen access to War Weaver. Does any region give access to that from a meta-org or something?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 12:45 PM	For a wizard or specialist with Metamagic School Focus, the best picks would be: Divination: 6: chained unluck Transmutation: 3: chained animate rope (best if you have a cohort or pal to throw them all immediately after you cast), chained enlarge person, chained magic weapon (ghosts at APL4? no problem.) 5: chained greater magic weapon (depending on your group) 8: chained flesh to stone Enchantment: 3: chained charm person 4: chained tasha's hideous laughter (very powerful) 5: chained hold person, chained suggestion 6: chained charm monster 7: chained dominate person, chained feeblemind (for taking out groups of casters), chained hold monster Necromancy: 3: chained cause fear (APL 2-4) 4: chained blindness/deafness 8: chained eyebite (expect table variation) Abjuration: 7: chained dismissal (if you know you'll be facing many outsiders today) Personally, I'd only consider picking this up for a specialist transmuter, a specialist enchanter, and/or a support caster who has Magic of the Land (Mass Enlarge + Mass Cure Light Wounds? Sure!) You could make a pretty fierce enchanter this way: Human 1 Enchanter: Scribe Scroll, Metamagic School Focus, Retributive Spell 2 Enchanter 3 Enchanter: Chain Spell 4 Enchanter 5 Enchanter: Unsettling Enchantment 6 Enchanter: Spell Focus: Enchantment 7 Enchanter 8 Enchanter 9 Enchanter: Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment 10 Enchanter: Alacritous Cogitation 11 Fatespinner 12 Fatespinner: Quicken Spell 13 Fatespinner 14 Fatespinner 15 Fatespinner: Spell Penetration There are variations (you might want to be able to Still, Silent your Charm Persons, for social situations) but I definitely think the combination of Chain and Unsettling Enchantment works very well, especially if you spin it up and follow it with a quickened spell to take advantage of the -2 saves penalty. Retributive I just like, though Extend may be more useful. Just a note, Magic Weapon is touch range and therefore can't be chained...
kjenks 03-13-07, 01:10 PM	Has anybody come up with a list of spells that would work with Chain Spell? I'd love to include that kind of data in my LG Spell List. http://members.aol.com/kenjenks/lg/
Japangirl 03-13-07, 01:35 PM	Chained Heroes Feast is fun if you need to feed lots of people, not just your party. It does have a target . . . the target is a table.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 02:49 PM	Chained Heroes Feast is fun if you need to feed lots of people, not just your party. It does have a target . . . the target is a table. The spell Heroes' Feat does not have a target entry... [Edit] Well, I was really bored, so I went through all the PHB spells to find the ones that are chainable. Ordered by range, with spell level in parenthesis: Close: Animal Messenger (1/2) Antipathy (8th) Baleful Polymorph (5th) Bindind (8th) Cause Fear (1st) Charm Animal (1st) Charm Monster (3/4) Charm Person (1st) Command (1st) Command Undead (2nd) Confusion (1st) Create Undead (6th) Daze (0) Destruction (7th) Detect Poison (0/1) Dismissal (4/5) Dominate Animal (3) Dominate Monster (9th) Dominate Person (4/5) Enlarge Person (1) Erase (1) Eyebite (6) Finger of Death (7/8) Freedom (9th) Geas, Lesser (3/4) Geas/Quest (6) Grease (1) Hideous Laughter (1/2) Keen Edge (3) Levitate (2) Mage Hand (0) Magic Fang, Greater (3) Magic Mouth (1/2) Magic Weapon, Greater (3/4) Make Whole (2) Maze (8th) Mind Blank (8th) Misdirection (2) Mislead (5/6) Modify Memory (4) Open/Close (0) Planar Binding, Lesser (5) Polymorph Any Object (8th) Power Word Blind (7th) Power Word Kill (9th) Power Word Stun (8th) Reduce Person (1) Shatter (2) Shield Other (2) Soul Bind (9th) Suggestion (2/3) Sympathy (8th/9th) Trap the Soul (8th) Undetectable Alignment (1/2) Medium: Animate Rope Blindness/Deafness Daze Monster Dispel Magic Dispel Magic, Greater Doom Feeblemind Flesh to Stone Hold Animal Hold Monster Hold Person Hold Portal Insanity (7th) Knock Magic Jar? Phantasmal Killer Quench Stone to Flesh Pyrotechnics Telekinesis Long: None Other: Mending Speak with Dead Ok...got lazy toward the end of the list...
Timlagor 03-13-07, 04:08 PM	Take a level of archmage, and make all of your touch spells ranged. Then all those touch spells you can chain. That really opens up stuff. Of course, that's not until you are a 14th level wizard. You could take the Reach Spell feat, but that really jacks up the spell level. You should expect table variation on whether these two tricks will work
solbergb 03-13-07, 04:42 PM	Also any sentence that says "take levels in archmage" means "This is something you'll do for a handful of adventures and then retire." If you're thinking about your L15 feat as chain spell that's cool. Most of the rest of us like our feats to work before L15.
Munkwunk 03-13-07, 04:47 PM	... Shield Other (2) ... Man, I pity that cleric.
bitznarf 03-13-07, 05:02 PM	Man, I pity that cleric. Ready a heal every round?
solbergb 03-13-07, 05:05 PM	delay death....you explode from the chained shield-others but take half the damage from the whole party. Good for the squishie cleric-type playing up a lot, who can't contribute strongly or heal fast enough. That'd need a rod of lesser chain though, likely. This trick needs another healer in the party. A good one, who can heal a large amount of damage fast. Or the char dies when the delay death runs out.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 05:19 PM	Race: Dwarf Alignment:Neutral Good (Celestian, Destiny+Protection) STR-10 (2) DEX-10 (2) CON-18 (16)+2 INT-8 (0) WIS-15 (8) CHA-8 (0)-2 Lv1(Cleric)Enlarge Spell Lv2(Cleric) Lv3(Cleric)Craft Wondrous Item Lv4(Cleric)+1 WIS Lv5(Cleric) Lv6(Cleric)Improved Toughness Lv7(Cleric) Lv8(Cleric)+1 WIS Lv9(Cleric)Chain Spell Lv10(Cleric) Lv11(Cleric) Lv12(Cleric)Spell Focus (Abjuration), +1 WIS Lv13(Cleric) Lv14(Cleric) Lv15(Cleric)Metamagic School Focus Depending on how much you want some bonus spells...you can take an amulet of health over periapt of wisdom. Any form of mass healing is helpful, but will likely be spending most of the time healing himself. Destiny Domain for lower level delay death, and protection because it fits the character...and has shield other. God forbid the party gets caught in an area effect spell...He takes his damage normally and 5x half damage to everyone else...Fun idea though...Walking ball of HP for the party...
bitznarf 03-13-07, 05:21 PM	*twitch*
Timlagor 03-13-07, 07:34 PM	delay death....you explode from the chained shield-others but take half the damage from the whole party. Good for the squishie cleric-type playing up a lot, who can't contribute strongly or heal fast enough. That'd need a rod of lesser chain though, likely. This trick needs another healer in the party. A good one, who can heal a large amount of damage fast. Or the char dies when the delay death runs out. Oh that's very nice. This works even if you only have one cleric so long as you can get the combat over before Delay Death runs out. You will usually have a bunch of people who can wield happy sticks by then as well as enough Healing of your own to catch up with the damage in a couple of rounds ...if not at least it's only one death from a combat that sounds like a TPK. (Extending the Delay Death looks like a very good plan though)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 08:08 PM	Oh that's very nice. This works even if you only have one cleric so long as you can get the combat over before Delay Death runs out. You will usually have a bunch of people who can wield happy sticks by then as well as enough Healing of your own to catch up with the damage in a couple of rounds ...if not at least it's only one death from a combat that sounds like a TPK. (Extending the Delay Death looks like a very good plan though) Nice thing about the destiny domain is it gives delay death as a 3rd level spell, so you can use lesser extend rods...
copper_wyrmling 03-14-07, 12:52 AM	Nice thing about the destiny domain is it gives delay death as a 3rd level spell, so you can use lesser extend rods... You can also, sigh, use lesser chaining rods. Chained Delay Death is a beautiful or horrible thing depending on your perspective - especially when the party carries third-level pearls of power. I have a friend who plays a high-level wizard with a lesser rod of chaining and some third-level pearls. His girlfriend plays a Destiny domain cleric. It's almost impossible to die on those tables unless you do it while the cleric's flat-footed ;) I must borrow that lesser chaining rod (or redeem my own cleric's metaregional access to it) and do the chained shield other trick sometime ;)
ragecage79 03-14-07, 02:10 AM	I'd note it on an AR but that's not the same at all. (remember that Judges can't pull characters any more) Given that this was an Elf in Ket I can entirely sympathise and he didn't do any lasting harm. I think your actions have to have consequences beyond the next two minutes to really warrant being turned to evil on the spot. To be fair, it wasn't an entire village, just the threatening guards. I was the player of the aforementioned PC that pushed him over the edge. My halfling was just trying not to blow our cover. Maybe he got a little carried away with the slapping and calling elves "property" for three or four mods in a row. Amir: THAT'S IT!!! <chain wrack>ZZZAAAPPP!! Bramblethorn (very frightened and a little ill): I think I just broke Amir. :(
Maesto 03-14-07, 06:42 AM	Heya, Yeah, I'm the culprit of that archmage. Note that you can only chain spells that have a "target" entry, and a range greater than touch. So no reach spelling to allow chaining. My favourites are, of course, unluck, delay death, and GMW. A couple that nobody else has mentioned are phantasmal assailants and phantom threat(?). Jolyon
evilaustintom 03-14-07, 12:48 PM	I played at a con last month with a player who had a PC with 2 levels in War Weaver. It seems that it is out there, at least SOMEwhere. Tom Thowe
solbergb 03-14-07, 12:48 PM	My sorceress has access, but it costs a caster level, and there is no way she's giving up her spells known fix each time she levels :)
taylorj 03-14-07, 12:53 PM	My sorceress has access, but it costs a caster level, and there is no way she's giving up her spells known fix each time she levels :) Did you get it from a regional meta-org? Must... find... War... Weaver... :tantrum:
evilaustintom 03-14-07, 12:54 PM	It's really better for a wizard anyway - someone with a lot of different spells that they can spread out among the group. Buffer Extraordinaire. Tom Thowe
zoinks69 03-14-07, 01:22 PM	Don't forget to always remember that you can't apply 2 metamagics (without one of them being off a rod) -- so, for the most part, you can't Chain a Reach spell. There's some funny business possible with Archmage and/or Hierophant abilities. I've also gotten various responses regarding Divine Ward in combination with Chain.
jstorrie 03-14-07, 01:38 PM	You can't apply two metamagics in what context? There's nothing wrong with an Empowered, Maximized Burning Hands (aside from poor use of spell slots), so what specifically do you mean?
solbergb 03-14-07, 02:03 PM	Did you get it from a regional meta-org? Must... find... War... Weaver... :tantrum: AR. Maybe a battle interactive, can't remember. Something to do with a warlike situation anyway. As a sorcerer with chain spell and enlarge spell there is a LOT I could do with touch spells suddenly becoming range "close". But not enough to lose out on higher spell tiers and more spells known. There is no limit to the amount of metamagic you can pile on a spell except your spell slots. You can't use more than one metamagic ROD. But that's the only restriction I'm aware of.
Timlagor 03-14-07, 03:53 PM	Don't forget to always remember that you can't apply 2 metamagics (without one of them being off a rod) -- so, for the most part, you can't Chain a Reach spell. You're just plain wrong here. There is absolutely nothing to preclude the use of multiple Metamagic Feats applied to a single spell. (indeed Max and Emp specifically explain how they interact) There are limits as follows: - You can only use one Turn undead or Turn Feat per round - You can only use one Metamagic Rod per spell - Metamagic Rods count the effective slot level of the spell to determine whether they can be used (ie no Lesser Rods with Empowered Scorching Rays even if you used Sudden Empower). The reason you can't Chain a Reach spell (at some tables) is that a Reach Spell has a touch attack. (there's a more technical version to this argument which I'm sure you can find if you really care). The same argument can be applied to Archmage and Hierophant though it is clearer in some cases than others.
Rerednaw 03-14-07, 04:27 PM	Does Ray of Enfeeblement qualify? It's ranged and single target. Of course RoE doesn't have a save and doesn't do damage so I am uncertain how Chain would interact with it.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-14-07, 04:37 PM	Does Ray of Enfeeblement qualify? It's ranged and single target. Of course RoE doesn't have a save and doesn't do damage so I am uncertain how Chain would interact with it. Look at the spell itself. Does the spell have a target entry? No? So it can't be chained.
solbergb 03-14-07, 10:09 PM	Anything that has an "effect" entry instead of a "target" entry can't be chained. This includes all rays and orbs. There are no "target" spells with range greater than touch that have an attack roll. Instead they use line of sight (if you don't have it, you can't target it at all. Attack roll spells and effects you can target a square and take your 50% miss chance). Target spells can optionally be delivered with a touch if you lack line of sight. Effect spells can not (they are always a ranged attack, never a melee touch attack) As far as I know there are zero "target" spells with attack rolls. Reach spell explicitly makes the spell a ray, so it's not an option for chaining. The arcane hierophant and archmage abilities have attack rolls, so many Judges extrapolate that they're more like rays than target spells, and thus not eligible for chaining. Expect table variation. The warweaver ability, by contrast, actually changes targeted spells of range touch to targeted spells of range close. THAT would open a vast amount of buffs for chaining, and shouldn't have table variation.
Maesto 03-15-07, 12:09 AM	"Target spells can optionally be delivered with a touch if you lack line of sight." I've never seen this one before - can I get a reference please?
JamesMaissen 03-15-07, 12:20 AM	"Target spells can optionally be delivered with a touch if you lack line of sight." I've never seen this one before - can I get a reference please? It's in the PhB in the magic/spells section. Under targetting if I recall correctly, James
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 02:21 PM	As far as I know there are zero "target" spells with attack rolls. Though the name is escaping me at the moment, I do know of one spell in Spell Compendium that has both an "Effect: Ray" entry and a "Target:" entry. I want to say it's in the Gs somewhere. I'm in the "Can't chain rays" camp, though after running into a Core mod with a Chain Enervation trap (the Circle seems to think we can Chain rays), and after running into that spell from Spell Compendium, I am not 100% sure anymore. More like 90% -Matt
Timlagor 03-15-07, 04:18 PM	The Circle Reviewers let a lot (well I'm sure it's only a tiny proportion of the stuff they spot) of illegal things through the editting process. If it's illegal I simply adapt it to the closest legal possibility. That trap would (probably -I haven't actually seen it) not work if I was running the module. Ideally I'd contact the Author/Circle before running it. Otherwise I'd just modify it: probably Split Ray Enervation ...possibly empowered but that's a bit dodgy.
Japangirl 03-15-07, 05:02 PM	Saw a trap with a Chained Maximized Enervate *shudder*. Of course, to legalize it to Split Ray made it a very high level spell, so high it was of the epic variety. Frustrating, to say the least. It was a combination trap. Chained Unluck followed by the Enervate followed by a Wail of the Banshee. Interactives can be painful. Eh well, at least no one died at my table!
Rerednaw 03-15-07, 05:12 PM	Look at the spell itself. Does the spell have a target entry? No? So it can't be chained. So you could chain a spell such as Phantasmal Killer and Hideous Laughter? Aha...the killer joke combo!
bitznarf 03-15-07, 05:22 PM	/me Dies.
Timlagor 03-16-07, 12:03 AM	Saw a trap with a Chained Maximized Enervate *shudder*. Of course, to legalize it to Split Ray made it a very high level spell, so high it was of the epic variety. Frustrating, to say the least. It was a combination trap. Chained Unluck followed by the Enervate followed by a Wail of the Banshee. Interactives can be painful. Eh well, at least no one died at my table! I don't understand.. Split Ray is +2 Chain is +4 (I think)
Japangirl 03-16-07, 12:39 AM	I thought it was the other way around. Hmm.
Sithobi1 03-16-07, 01:57 AM	Chain is +3, Split is +2.