Bite of the Werebear, Last Breath, Nature's Favor, Ray of Stupidity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bite of the Werebear, Last Breath, Nature's Favor, Ray of Stupidity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
copper_wyrmling
02-06-06, 09:41 AM There are some Spell Compendium spells that I would like to see moved to the Restricted list. In particular:

- The "Bite of the Were-X" series from the SC. The bonuses to physical stats seem extraordinarily high for the spell levels in question (particularly for Bite of the Werebear).
- Last Breath, from the SC. Revivify is a L5 cleric spell, it's like Raise Dead without level loss. Last Breath is a L4 druid spell, it's like Reincarnate without level loss. Making Revivify Restricted and Last Breath Core seems inconsistent to me. I've seen a number of characters, particularly at lower levels, opt for Reincarnate over Raise Dead: Reincarnate is definitely used in the campaign, despite its disadvantages.
- Nature's Favour, from the SC. Comparing this spell to Divine Favour, it is one level higher, has a significantly higher cap on the bonuses to attack and damage, and takes a swift action instead of a standard action to cast. It essentially gets the effect of Quicken Spell for an increase of one level instead of four. Consequently it will remain powerful as a combat spell, without the need for metamagic or buffing time, up to very high levels, which I think is inappropriate for a L2 spell.

I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however.

Opinions?
Arvagor
02-06-06, 11:23 AM I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however.No more so than ray of enfeeblement, really. And unless the Spell Compendium versions are worded radically different (i.e., is ray of stupidity exactly the same as ray of enfeeblement, except for the particular ability damaged?), multiple castings of the spell on the same creature will not stack: "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength.

If the wording is the same, then you'd have to argue for removal of ray of enfeeblement as well...
A'Talsen
02-06-06, 11:28 AM There are some Spell Compendium spells that I would like to see moved to the Restricted list. In particular:
- The "Bite of the Were-X" series from the SC. The bonuses to physical stats seem extraordinarily high for the spell levels in question (particularly for Bite of the Werebear).
I'm comfortable with the fact that they are limited. They are of most use to the Fighter/Mage types, who are already loosing at least one spell level (2 caster levels). So look at them as being good for characters who basically treat them as one level higher than they are.

They are really good for Druids, but then druids have Wile Shape already, and as a Druid player, I won't be stressing to get them, since I really don't need them anyway.

- Last Breath, from the SC. Revivify is a L5 cleric spell, it's like Raise Dead without level loss. Last Breath is a L4 druid spell, it's like Reincarnate without level loss. Making Revivify Restricted and Last Breath Core seems inconsistent to me. I've seen a number of characters, particularly at lower levels, opt for Reincarnate over Raise Dead: Reincarnate is definitely used in the campaign, despite its disadvantages.
Again, I play a druid. I used to memorize Last Breath every adventure, against the posibility of PC death. Now, with the change of Last Breath from a Raise Dead effect to a Reincarnate effect, I won't bother.

Yes, I know that some people use reincarnate, but if they want that, they can wait a day to get it, or they can let me know ahead of time - but no one I know is going to risk it. I suspect that the higher the character's level, the less they are willing to risk the chance of a poor Reincarnation roll.

I only read Last Breath once, and didn't note that it prevented level loss; it didn't used to, if it does now. But then I consider preventing level loss to be a *penalty* and not a benifit in LG. Loosing gold without loosing the same amount of XP lowers your power level.

- Nature's Favour, from the SC. Comparing this spell to Divine Favour, it is one level higher, has a significantly higher cap on the bonuses to attack and damage, and takes a swift action instead of a standard action to cast. It essentially gets the effect of Quicken Spell for an increase of one level instead of four. Consequently it will remain powerful as a combat spell, without the need for metamagic or buffing time, up to very high levels, which I think is inappropriate for a L2 spell.
Only affects animals, so its a self (wild shaped) or animal companion spell. It is definately at the high end for 2nd level, but not brokenly so, given its target limits. You have to be a wildshaped melee-style druid to use it effectivly.

I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however.

Opinions?
Haven't read Ray of Stupidity.

With the already huge list of limited spells, and the way the circle is (miss) using 'Dispel Confusion' to add to the limited list whenever they want, it really isn't necessary to restrict things in the LGCS. If it is seen as a problem by the circle, they will restrict it mid-year.

Michael "Fish" Murphy
solbergb
02-06-06, 12:07 PM I concur on Last Breath. It is the druidic Revivify now, it should be restricted for the same reason (LG doesn't like the "die but no level loss" spells)

I'm not certian on the various "Bite" spells. You have to compare it to what the druid could do with wildshape at the same levels, and seen in that light, they aren't quite as bad as all that. Of course, some builds will do better with wildshape, some with "add on" bonuses (depends on starting strength). Is encouraging a druid to spend on physical stats a bad thing? Hard to say. I'm ok with "limited for now", but would not cry if they went away.

Nature's favor has gone from a "hm...waste an action in combat to buff an animal or myself" spell to "no opportunity cost" spell...it got a huge powerup. Is it out of line with other swift action spells with limited targets? Mostly in that it lasts a whole minute, not just one round. (there are several +d6 for level 1 slot spells, plus things like master touch that let you weild an exotic weapon that often does more damage than you get normally).

It's a good spell. It isn't "CD Quill Blast" or "Disjunction" broken. It may be more in the lines of "spikes plus brambles" broken for certain animals and builds (pounce builds, giant squids with 12 attacks, etc). Like the Bite spells, I'd like to see how it comes out in play before banning it. It's a very good spell, but druids have a ton of very good level 2 spells. One big limit on druids is they just don't have the spell slots (or feat slots for that matter) to do everything they can theoretically do.

Ray of stupidity...can't say. I'd be happier if it did ability penalty, minimum 1, like ray of enfeeblement. I agree that ablility damaging spells are risky...another along those lines is phantom assailants (drops wis and dex by 8 if you fail both will and fort, or 4 if you just fail will). That one has a save though. Rays have a lower barrier to entry.
bertman4
02-06-06, 12:16 PM No more so than ray of enfeeblement, really. And unless the Spell Compendium versions are worded radically different (i.e., is ray of stupidity exactly the same as ray of enfeeblement, except for the particular ability damaged?), multiple castings of the spell on the same creature will not stack: "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength.

If the wording is the same, then you'd have to argue for removal of ray of enfeeblement as well...

Read Ray of Enfeeblement again. It does not cause ability damage. It gives you a PENALTY to an ability (Str) . I don't have SC so I'm not sure about Ray of Stupidity but if it does cause ability DAMAGE, then it might be a problem. And there are exceptions to the no stacking rule. Enervation, which deals negative levels, can stack. And I think there's a CD or CA spell that causes ability damage to a mental stat that does stack, but don't quote me on that.

Bertman
Britt
02-06-06, 12:42 PM Spells that deal damage stack; spells that grant a penalty do not stack.

I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf!
Arvagor
02-06-06, 01:04 PM Read Ray of Enfeeblement again. It does not cause ability damage. It gives you a PENALTY to an ability (Str)
Right... Which is what I said when talking about the actual effect: "So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength."
A'Talsen
02-06-06, 01:17 PM Assumedly you meant Last Breath. :)

If you really are willing to take the chance on Reincarnation due to your race, then that isn't a problem with Last Breath, but rather with how the grey elf race interacts with Reincarnation.

Again, while it may be appealing not to loose a level, you DO loose power, by spending gold, but not spending XP. On a purely cost/Benefits examination, a character will be more powerful (having worked back up to their previous level) after spending the lower cost of reincarnation and loosing a level than they will with being brought back by Last Breath at the same level.

Again, anything that leads to a *less* powerful PC can't really be overpowered...

Micahel "Fish" Murphy

Spells that deal damage stack; spells that grant a penalty do not stack.

I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf!
Britt
02-06-06, 01:23 PM Yeah, I meant /last breath,/ thanks :)

Except for the following situation. Let's say I got a half-orc. I would be paying a very small amount and taking a -2 DEX penalty for an unnamed +4 STR bonus and +2 CON bonus. That seems unbalanced to me, and I'm sure there are better races for a grey elf reincarnation than half-orc.
Lomiat
02-06-06, 02:19 PM Ray of Stupidity is a powerful spell, no doubt, but I'd prefer not to see it go away--at least, until after I've had the opportunity to abuse it myself.

Feeblemind plus Quickened Ray of Stupidity should end most non-cleric, non-druid creatures.

Nonetheless, Feeblemind is pretty much the only advantage Ray of Stupidity has over Ray of Enfeeblemind.

I suspect the spell will be abused, but not as often as people might fear.
Maesto
02-06-06, 10:44 PM I'm sorry, if anybody thinks that Ray of Enfeeblement isn't broken, consider that an empowered ray of enfeeblement at APL 10 does a (1d6+5)x1.5 strength penalty, and is only a third level spell. Furthermore, it's a ranged touch attack, with no saving throw, and only a lesser restoration (3 rd casting time) or a dispel magic will get rid of it.

Whichever ray in the SC does a dex penalty is exactly the same, and the stupidity one is in exactly the same boat, albeit that it doesn't do such a stupidly high level of damage.

Jolyon
copper_wyrmling
02-07-06, 03:02 AM Bite of the Were-X - am I wrong in thinking that these spells work on wildshaped druids? If I'm wrong, then fine, that makes them a lot more balanced. I just have a mental image of a druid Fast Wildshaping into something with huge Strength (or just starting the combat in uber-form) and then casting Bite of the Werebear on themselves as their first-action buff. I believe the number being thrown around by the druid player I met at my last convention was Strength 54...

Last Breath - yes, this has changed, it now avoids level loss. Just to clarify, my problem with the current situation is that Revivify is Restricted and Last Breath isn't. If losing money but not XP is a net benefit in LG, then why is Revivify Restricted?

Nature's Favour - yes, you have to be either a wildshape-and-melee druid or a druid who relies on their animal companion to get good use out of this spell. Almost all druids I've seen fall into one of those two categories. It's like saying that a swift-action version of Divine Power at L5 (with the usual rounds / level duration) wouldn't be broken because only melee clerics would use it :rolleyes:

Ray of Stupidity - to clarify, this spell is *not* like Ray of Enfeeblement, in several ways:
- The damage is only 1d4+1, and does not scale with level.
- It's a L2 spell rather than L1.
- Instead of a penalty, it deals ability damage, and thus stacks with itself.
- Because it deals ability damage, there is nothing to stop this spell from reducing creatures to Int 0.

The first two points make it less powerful, the last two points make it rather scary. (Just a side note, I don't think the Dex-penalty ray is nearly as powerful as Ray of Enfeeblement, most monsters rely on their Str much more than their Dex, at least once initiative is rolled, and opponents who need high Dex tend to have excellent starting Dex and are hard to hit with ray spells.)

I may be overestimating the effect of Ray of Stupidity because my sorcerer is built to be deadly with ray spells in general, and Enervation in particular, at higher levels. Ray of Stupidity and Enervation are both rays that stack with themselves, so the methods for exploiting them are pretty similar. At L12 my sorc would be able to deal an average of 10 points of Int damage each round (no save), which will immediately incapacitate most monsters and a good chunk of NPCs - a wizard who's just lost 10 Int may not be unconscious, but he's probably pretty useless, while members of other classes often don't have 11+ Int and thus will be comatose. That trick does involve a fair bit of feat investment, however.
Madfox11
02-07-06, 09:08 AM Bite of the Were-X - am I wrong in thinking that these spells work on wildshaped druids?

OF course they work on wildshaped druids, and what is worse, the druid can share the spell with his animal companion. The spell might provide enhancement bonusses to stats, but druids in wildshape do not wear belts or gloves so they get the full benefit from the spell, and two bonus feats to boost. I agree that the bite of the werebeast spell string is rediculously powerful.
Zrealm
02-07-06, 10:54 AM I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf!

That's not exactly true - there's a 16 percent chance of getting permanently removed from the campaign....
Britt
02-07-06, 12:00 PM That's not exactly true - there's a 16 percent chance of getting permanently removed from the campaign....
True, I have a 16% chance of having my quatenary character removed from the campaign. I'm not really worried about that :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
copper_wyrmling 02-06-06, 09:41 AM	There are some Spell Compendium spells that I would like to see moved to the Restricted list. In particular: - The "Bite of the Were-X" series from the SC. The bonuses to physical stats seem extraordinarily high for the spell levels in question (particularly for Bite of the Werebear). - Last Breath, from the SC. Revivify is a L5 cleric spell, it's like Raise Dead without level loss. Last Breath is a L4 druid spell, it's like Reincarnate without level loss. Making Revivify Restricted and Last Breath Core seems inconsistent to me. I've seen a number of characters, particularly at lower levels, opt for Reincarnate over Raise Dead: Reincarnate is definitely used in the campaign, despite its disadvantages. - Nature's Favour, from the SC. Comparing this spell to Divine Favour, it is one level higher, has a significantly higher cap on the bonuses to attack and damage, and takes a swift action instead of a standard action to cast. It essentially gets the effect of Quicken Spell for an increase of one level instead of four. Consequently it will remain powerful as a combat spell, without the need for metamagic or buffing time, up to very high levels, which I think is inappropriate for a L2 spell. I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however. Opinions?
Arvagor 02-06-06, 11:23 AM	I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however.No more so than ray of enfeeblement, really. And unless the Spell Compendium versions are worded radically different (i.e., is ray of stupidity exactly the same as ray of enfeeblement, except for the particular ability damaged?), multiple castings of the spell on the same creature will not stack: "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength. If the wording is the same, then you'd have to argue for removal of ray of enfeeblement as well...
A'Talsen 02-06-06, 11:28 AM	There are some Spell Compendium spells that I would like to see moved to the Restricted list. In particular: - The "Bite of the Were-X" series from the SC. The bonuses to physical stats seem extraordinarily high for the spell levels in question (particularly for Bite of the Werebear). I'm comfortable with the fact that they are limited. They are of most use to the Fighter/Mage types, who are already loosing at least one spell level (2 caster levels). So look at them as being good for characters who basically treat them as one level higher than they are. They are really good for Druids, but then druids have Wile Shape already, and as a Druid player, I won't be stressing to get them, since I really don't need them anyway. - Last Breath, from the SC. Revivify is a L5 cleric spell, it's like Raise Dead without level loss. Last Breath is a L4 druid spell, it's like Reincarnate without level loss. Making Revivify Restricted and Last Breath Core seems inconsistent to me. I've seen a number of characters, particularly at lower levels, opt for Reincarnate over Raise Dead: Reincarnate is definitely used in the campaign, despite its disadvantages. Again, I play a druid. I used to memorize Last Breath every adventure, against the posibility of PC death. Now, with the change of Last Breath from a Raise Dead effect to a Reincarnate effect, I won't bother. Yes, I know that some people use reincarnate, but if they want that, they can wait a day to get it, or they can let me know ahead of time - but no one I know is going to risk it. I suspect that the higher the character's level, the less they are willing to risk the chance of a poor Reincarnation roll. I only read Last Breath once, and didn't note that it prevented level loss; it didn't used to, if it does now. But then I consider preventing level loss to be a penalty and not a benifit in LG. Loosing gold without loosing the same amount of XP lowers your power level. - Nature's Favour, from the SC. Comparing this spell to Divine Favour, it is one level higher, has a significantly higher cap on the bonuses to attack and damage, and takes a swift action instead of a standard action to cast. It essentially gets the effect of Quicken Spell for an increase of one level instead of four. Consequently it will remain powerful as a combat spell, without the need for metamagic or buffing time, up to very high levels, which I think is inappropriate for a L2 spell. Only affects animals, so its a self (wild shaped) or animal companion spell. It is definately at the high end for 2nd level, but not brokenly so, given its target limits. You have to be a wildshaped melee-style druid to use it effectivly. I also have reservations about Ray of Stupidity (SC). Any spell that does ability damage is potentially dangerous because it can be stacked with itself, and many creatures have low Int and are very vulnerable to Int damage. That said, the base Int damage of Ray of Stupidity is quite low, so maybe that makes it acceptable - it can still automatically remove animals from combat, however. Opinions? Haven't read Ray of Stupidity. With the already huge list of limited spells, and the way the circle is (miss) using 'Dispel Confusion' to add to the limited list whenever they want, it really isn't necessary to restrict things in the LGCS. If it is seen as a problem by the circle, they will restrict it mid-year. Michael "Fish" Murphy
solbergb 02-06-06, 12:07 PM	I concur on Last Breath. It is the druidic Revivify now, it should be restricted for the same reason (LG doesn't like the "die but no level loss" spells) I'm not certian on the various "Bite" spells. You have to compare it to what the druid could do with wildshape at the same levels, and seen in that light, they aren't quite as bad as all that. Of course, some builds will do better with wildshape, some with "add on" bonuses (depends on starting strength). Is encouraging a druid to spend on physical stats a bad thing? Hard to say. I'm ok with "limited for now", but would not cry if they went away. Nature's favor has gone from a "hm...waste an action in combat to buff an animal or myself" spell to "no opportunity cost" spell...it got a huge powerup. Is it out of line with other swift action spells with limited targets? Mostly in that it lasts a whole minute, not just one round. (there are several +d6 for level 1 slot spells, plus things like master touch that let you weild an exotic weapon that often does more damage than you get normally). It's a good spell. It isn't "CD Quill Blast" or "Disjunction" broken. It may be more in the lines of "spikes plus brambles" broken for certain animals and builds (pounce builds, giant squids with 12 attacks, etc). Like the Bite spells, I'd like to see how it comes out in play before banning it. It's a very good spell, but druids have a ton of very good level 2 spells. One big limit on druids is they just don't have the spell slots (or feat slots for that matter) to do everything they can theoretically do. Ray of stupidity...can't say. I'd be happier if it did ability penalty, minimum 1, like ray of enfeeblement. I agree that ablility damaging spells are risky...another along those lines is phantom assailants (drops wis and dex by 8 if you fail both will and fort, or 4 if you just fail will). That one has a save though. Rays have a lower barrier to entry.
bertman4 02-06-06, 12:16 PM	No more so than ray of enfeeblement, really. And unless the Spell Compendium versions are worded radically different (i.e., is ray of stupidity exactly the same as ray of enfeeblement, except for the particular ability damaged?), multiple castings of the spell on the same creature will not stack: "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies." So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength. If the wording is the same, then you'd have to argue for removal of ray of enfeeblement as well... Read Ray of Enfeeblement again. It does not cause ability damage. It gives you a PENALTY to an ability (Str) . I don't have SC so I'm not sure about Ray of Stupidity but if it does cause ability DAMAGE, then it might be a problem. And there are exceptions to the no stacking rule. Enervation, which deals negative levels, can stack. And I think there's a CD or CA spell that causes ability damage to a mental stat that does stack, but don't quote me on that. Bertman
Britt 02-06-06, 12:42 PM	Spells that deal damage stack; spells that grant a penalty do not stack. I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf!
Arvagor 02-06-06, 01:04 PM	Read Ray of Enfeeblement again. It does not cause ability damage. It gives you a PENALTY to an ability (Str) Right... Which is what I said when talking about the actual effect: "So ray of enfeeblement never applies a penalty of more than 1d6+5 against Strength."
A'Talsen 02-06-06, 01:17 PM	Assumedly you meant Last Breath. :) If you really are willing to take the chance on Reincarnation due to your race, then that isn't a problem with Last Breath, but rather with how the grey elf race interacts with Reincarnation. Again, while it may be appealing not to loose a level, you DO loose power, by spending gold, but not spending XP. On a purely cost/Benefits examination, a character will be more powerful (having worked back up to their previous level) after spending the lower cost of reincarnation and loosing a level than they will with being brought back by Last Breath at the same level. Again, anything that leads to a less powerful PC can't really be overpowered... Micahel "Fish" Murphy Spells that deal damage stack; spells that grant a penalty do not stack. I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf!
Britt 02-06-06, 01:23 PM	Yeah, I meant /last breath,/ thanks :) Except for the following situation. Let's say I got a half-orc. I would be paying a very small amount and taking a -2 DEX penalty for an unnamed +4 STR bonus and +2 CON bonus. That seems unbalanced to me, and I'm sure there are better races for a grey elf reincarnation than half-orc.
Lomiat 02-06-06, 02:19 PM	Ray of Stupidity is a powerful spell, no doubt, but I'd prefer not to see it go away--at least, until after I've had the opportunity to abuse it myself. Feeblemind plus Quickened Ray of Stupidity should end most non-cleric, non-druid creatures. Nonetheless, Feeblemind is pretty much the only advantage Ray of Stupidity has over Ray of Enfeeblemind. I suspect the spell will be abused, but not as often as people might fear.
Maesto 02-06-06, 10:44 PM	I'm sorry, if anybody thinks that Ray of Enfeeblement isn't broken, consider that an empowered ray of enfeeblement at APL 10 does a (1d6+5)x1.5 strength penalty, and is only a third level spell. Furthermore, it's a ranged touch attack, with no saving throw, and only a lesser restoration (3 rd casting time) or a dispel magic will get rid of it. Whichever ray in the SC does a dex penalty is exactly the same, and the stupidity one is in exactly the same boat, albeit that it doesn't do such a stupidly high level of damage. Jolyon
copper_wyrmling 02-07-06, 03:02 AM	Bite of the Were-X - am I wrong in thinking that these spells work on wildshaped druids? If I'm wrong, then fine, that makes them a lot more balanced. I just have a mental image of a druid Fast Wildshaping into something with huge Strength (or just starting the combat in uber-form) and then casting Bite of the Werebear on themselves as their first-action buff. I believe the number being thrown around by the druid player I met at my last convention was Strength 54... Last Breath - yes, this has changed, it now avoids level loss. Just to clarify, my problem with the current situation is that Revivify is Restricted and Last Breath isn't. If losing money but not XP is a net benefit in LG, then why is Revivify Restricted? Nature's Favour - yes, you have to be either a wildshape-and-melee druid or a druid who relies on their animal companion to get good use out of this spell. Almost all druids I've seen fall into one of those two categories. It's like saying that a swift-action version of Divine Power at L5 (with the usual rounds / level duration) wouldn't be broken because only melee clerics would use it :rolleyes: Ray of Stupidity - to clarify, this spell is not like Ray of Enfeeblement, in several ways: - The damage is only 1d4+1, and does not scale with level. - It's a L2 spell rather than L1. - Instead of a penalty, it deals ability damage, and thus stacks with itself. - Because it deals ability damage, there is nothing to stop this spell from reducing creatures to Int 0. The first two points make it less powerful, the last two points make it rather scary. (Just a side note, I don't think the Dex-penalty ray is nearly as powerful as Ray of Enfeeblement, most monsters rely on their Str much more than their Dex, at least once initiative is rolled, and opponents who need high Dex tend to have excellent starting Dex and are hard to hit with ray spells.) I may be overestimating the effect of Ray of Stupidity because my sorcerer is built to be deadly with ray spells in general, and Enervation in particular, at higher levels. Ray of Stupidity and Enervation are both rays that stack with themselves, so the methods for exploiting them are pretty similar. At L12 my sorc would be able to deal an average of 10 points of Int damage each round (no save), which will immediately incapacitate most monsters and a good chunk of NPCs - a wizard who's just lost 10 Int may not be unconscious, but he's probably pretty useless, while members of other classes often don't have 11+ Int and thus will be comatose. That trick does involve a fair bit of feat investment, however.
Madfox11 02-07-06, 09:08 AM	Bite of the Were-X - am I wrong in thinking that these spells work on wildshaped druids? OF course they work on wildshaped druids, and what is worse, the druid can share the spell with his animal companion. The spell might provide enhancement bonusses to stats, but druids in wildshape do not wear belts or gloves so they get the full benefit from the spell, and two bonus feats to boost. I agree that the bite of the werebeast spell string is rediculously powerful.
Zrealm 02-07-06, 10:54 AM	I definitely think Revivify should be Restricted. If not, I will be hard pressed to avoid asking every druid with which I play my Grey Elf to take the spell and then trying to die. There's nowhere to go but up for a grey elf! That's not exactly true - there's a 16 percent chance of getting permanently removed from the campaign....
Britt 02-07-06, 12:00 PM	That's not exactly true - there's a 16 percent chance of getting permanently removed from the campaign.... True, I have a 16% chance of having my quatenary character removed from the campaign. I'm not really worried about that :)