Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 03-06-07, 09:08 AM	Aerial creature carries rocks (or alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc.) Flies over target. Lets go as a free action or makes an attack roll? Opinions (or better yet any official rulings) on how to resolve this? Reflex save (if just 'released') or normal ranged attack (depending on object). Range increment? As far as I can tell by the rules as written except for the +1 high ground rule and possible increased damage for a falling object, altitude is not considered for a ranged attack, so I am inclined to treat it as a single normal attack roll. If it's alchemist's fire then -2 for every 10 feet. Anyone?
JamesMaissen 03-06-07, 09:14 AM	Aerial creature carries rocks (or alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc.) Flies over target. Lets go as a free action or makes an attack roll? Items dropped don't get to have the benefits of attacks. Simply don't allow that to be confused. Next is don't allow multiple alchemical items to be thrown in volleys (ie I wrap x alchemist fires together and throw them) for linearly added damage. -James
bhale187 03-06-07, 09:27 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=796410 post 28 has some info, I don't have the Heros of Battle so I am not sure if there is more there to help you.
Rerednaw 03-06-07, 10:36 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=796410 post 28 has some info, I don't have the Heros of Battle so I am not sure if there is more there to help you. Hey thanks. I do not have it either but reference to the section of relevant text is helpful. Cheers.
amnuxoll 03-06-07, 11:39 AM	I treat this as a normal attack roll unless the dropped item explicitly has an area of effect. What I *hate* is when players use some trick of magic to drop a heavy object on an opponent. It's exploiting a loophole in the rules and therefore it does not work at my tables. :AMN:
catsclaw 03-06-07, 02:35 PM	What I *hate* is when players use some trick of magic to drop a heavy object on an opponent. It's exploiting a loophole in the rules and therefore it does not work at my tables.Since it seems you're essentially using a house rule to outlaw it, I assume you mean you mean it doesn't work in your home games. You can't overrule things in LG just because you don't like the rules.
MatteBlack 03-06-07, 06:38 PM	I treat this as a normal attack roll unless the dropped item explicitly has an area of effect. What I *hate* is when players use some trick of magic to drop a heavy object on an opponent. It's exploiting a loophole in the rules and therefore it does not work at my tables. :AMN: While I am against abusing loopholes, using magic to drop a heavy item does not seem to be such a loophole. There are alot of fantasy stories that have great monsters slain by cunning and even greater heavy weights. That is the point of magic, its a trick. Let's not get too stuck in the miniature battle side of 3.5. If there is a grey area, by all means, make a judgement call but let's not dismiss the rules out of taste.
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 07:23 PM	Since it seems you're essentially using a house rule to outlaw it, I assume you mean you mean it doesn't work in your home games. You can't overrule things in LG just because you don't like the rules. When the rule is in a grey area, sure you can. And falling damage, targeting squares, and tying lots of objects together are a grey area. The Heroes of Battle rules are a lot more restrictive than what most players tend to think of as being what should happen - as in target a square and the target still gets an easy reflex save to avoid all damage. Also, you can't in general conjure things into midair. A lot of times when players try to put an object into the air, they want to DDoor something into midair or they want to Summon something into midair, both of which can easily be interpreted as illegal.
catsclaw 03-07-07, 11:26 AM	When the rule is in a grey area, sure you can. And falling damage, targeting squares, and tying lots of objects together are a grey area. The Heroes of Battle rules are a lot more restrictive than what most players tend to think of as being what should happen - as in target a square and the target still gets an easy reflex save to avoid all damage.I'm arguing, with the Heroes of Battle rules, damage from dropped objects is not a grey area. Sure, they're more restrictive than most players think -- which makes them balanced in combat. But you can't just arbitrarily say "I don't like this tactic, so I'm going to ignore the rules which allow it."A lot of times when players try to put an object into the air, they want to DDoor something into midair or they want to Summon something into midair, both of which can easily be interpreted as illegal.Not "easily be interpreted as illegal" -- they are illegal. The PHB specifically rules out conjuring things into midair (or inside creatures), and for Dimension Door you can only take willing creatures with you, which means at a minimum some difficult Handle Animal checks are coming up.
Timlagor 03-07-07, 11:39 AM	Heroes of Battle rules are not part of LG. This isn't so much a grey area as an area completely not covered bythe rules. For DDoor you can take as much inanimate stuff as you can carry (iirc -it's certainly not nothing)
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 01:46 PM	For DDoor you can take as much inanimate stuff as you can carry (iirc -it's certainly not nothing) A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. It being inanimate doesn't make a lot of difference in two ways: The object must appear in a supported location - meaning no touching a big rock and DDoor up. You want to drop something, you need to actually be carrying it. The caster is a creature brought to its location - meaning the caster cannot DDoor up into midair. Yes, that's an intent call, and there's people who will rule differently on that. But if you want to put a quick halt to people abusing falling rules, there's more than enough room right there to swat them down.
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 01:49 PM	INot "easily be interpreted as illegal" -- they are illegal. The PHB specifically rules out conjuring things into midair (or inside creatures), and for Dimension Door you can only take willing creatures with you, which means at a minimum some difficult Handle Animal checks are coming up. That's not quite what I'm referring as being interpreted as being illegal - it is illegal to teleport a willing creature, object, whatever, into midair with you. It can be interpreted that it is illegal to teleport into midair.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 01:54 PM	That's not quite what I'm referring as being interpreted as being illegal - it is illegal to teleport a willing creature, object, whatever, into midair with you. It can be interpreted that it is illegal to teleport into midair. The surface to support argument is quite shaky with DDoor, since it includes a distance "upwards" in the spell text. However, dropping heavy objects issue is directly addressed. You can't DDoor with more than your maximum load. And for most characters capable of DDooring, Max load is not that big.
Timlagor 03-07-07, 02:22 PM	DDoor also things aren't really "brought into being or transported to your location": they are trasnported to a different location and you go too. They can't be being transported to your location because you aren't there yet when the destination is determined. That's my view anyway but I can see how you might squeeze the other interpretation out of it.
LachlarlanIII 03-07-07, 02:41 PM	Heroes of Battle rules are not part of LG. Neither is the Book of Vile Darkness and we use rules from that source (casting spells with the Evil descriptor being Evil acts).
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 02:53 PM	The surface to support argument is quite shaky with DDoor, since it includes a distance "upwards" in the spell text. Not sure how that affects anything - there are plenty of instances where someone would want to DDoor upwards onto a surface. They can't be being transported to your location because you aren't there yet when the destination is determined. Not sure how that matters either - you are there when it arrives.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 04:52 PM	Neither is the Book of Vile Darkness and we use rules from that source (casting spells with the Evil descriptor being Evil acts). But that's an official rule from a DC...Until the rule from HoB is made official, it's just a suggested guideline...
Mithreinmaethor 03-07-07, 04:57 PM	I think that Britt has covered this before. The book may not be a valid Player source book, but it is and can be a valid Rules source.
King Kashue 03-07-07, 04:59 PM	Not sure how that affects anything - there are plenty of instances where someone would want to DDoor upwards onto a surface. Certainly, but the spell doesn't specify that, it merely gives an upward direction as an example. The reason why the rule you're citing may not be applicable is because of the way it's phrased... "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location" Thats the description of "creation" and "summoning" / "calling", three of the explicit types of Conjuration. Teleportation is a different type, and that rule doesn't say "anything conjured", but gives a description...When you DDoor or Teleport, you're not bringing something into being or transporting something to your current location...
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 05:40 PM	Certainly, but the spell doesn't specify that, it merely gives an upward direction as an example. It shouldn't have to do that - it is a rule of how the school of conjuration works. That you can specify that you want to DDoor upwards does not necessarily make it a legal place to DDoor. It is possible that there is a surface there and therefore you can DDoor there. Or that you'll pop up in the nearest possible location - you know there's a mountain fortress, want to go inside, but can't see in. The reason why the rule you're citing may not be applicable is because of the way it's phrased... "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location" Thats the description of "creation" and "summoning" / "calling", three of the explicit types of Conjuration. Teleportation is a different type, and that rule doesn't say "anything conjured", but gives a description...When you DDoor or Teleport, you're not bringing something into being or transporting something to your current location... A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. Teleportation uses the word transported. When you DDoor a creature, you are transporting it. At the end of the spell, it has been transported to where you now are - aka your location. I want to be clear here - I'm not stating I'm certain I'm right. I'm stating I'd feel more than comfortable making this kind of ruling and I'd see no problem with a judge ruling otherwise. But the RAW here can easily be used to support my position, and that's really all that's necessary to make a ruling at the table.
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 06:41 PM	Yeah, we had this argument on lgwizards about six months ago iirc. I would point out that Teleport states that it's risky to aim for coastal cities, as you may end up out to sea if you miss. It's hard to see how that would work if you need a surface capable of supporting your weight. As King Kashue said, the wording of the prohibition also sounds very much like a direct reference to the summoning / calling and creation subschools, and it follows directly after the subschool descriptions iirc. Mommy's position doesn't even stop the exploits with teleporting falling rocks, it just means you need to use Teleport Object instead (which works unambiguously unless you believe that "your position" means "anywhere within your field of view").
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 07:25 PM	Yeah, we had this argument on lgwizards about six months ago iirc. I would point out that Teleport states that it's risky to aim for coastal cities, as you may end up out to sea if you miss. It's hard to see how that would work if you need a surface capable of supporting your weight. Out to sea isn't in the sea...if the position is 100 miles South of that coastal city, you land on the nearest surface. Which could be a small sandbar, deserted island or right next to a polar bear. Mommy's position doesn't even stop the exploits with teleporting falling rocks, it just means you need to use Teleport Object instead (which works unambiguously unless you believe that "your position" means "anywhere within your field of view"). I think that's unambigiously the case that "your position" = "anywhere within your field of view" - if you believe the conjuring rules don't allow you to summon things into midair to fall on people. I can summon a Celestial Bison in midair above an opponent because he's 30' away from me as opposed to 5' away from me? I don't think so. If I can't summon a Celestial Bison to fall in such a manner, I can't Teleport Any Object a big rock to fall in such a manner either.
copper_wyrmling 03-07-07, 08:11 PM	Okay, after this post, I'm not posting again on this topic: the argument went on for a ridiculously long time on lgwizards six months ago, despite being rather one-sided (anyone who's interested, go to lgwizards and search the message archive for "teleporting into the air"), and I'd like to give this thread some chance to un-derail itself. Out to sea isn't in the sea...if the position is 100 miles South of that coastal city, you land on the nearest surface. Which could be a small sandbar, deserted island or right next to a polar bear. The common usage of "18 miles out at sea" does not, I think, indicate being on land. I may, of course, have a completely different understanding of the phrase to everyone else, but from the comments during that lgwizards discussion, I don't think so. (And if the only consequence of landing "out at sea" was to end up in a safe but out-of-the-way location, why would that be any worse than a normal teleport targeting error? It seems like the reason for the example is to demonstrate that BAD stuff can happen with teleport, that's why some people pay another two spell levels to be able to teleport without error.) I think that's unambigiously the case that your position = anywhere within your field of view - if you believe the conjuring rules don't allow you to summon things into midair to fall on people. I can summon a Celestial Bison in midair above an opponent because he's 30' away from me as opposed to 5' away from me? I don't think so. If I can't summon a Celestial Bison to fall in such a manner, I can't Teleport Any Object a big rock to fall in such a manner either. To quote the full text, Definition of subschools: "Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects and effects on the spot (conjuration)." Next paragraph: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range." My position is: - The conjuration subschools are defined by particular functions. The function of "bringing a creature or object to your location" is a property of the summoning and calling subschools, while that of "bringing creatures or objects into being" is a property of the summoning subschool. The description of the [teleportation] subschool is deliberately different. - As stated in the second paragraph, any creature / object brought to your location or created by such a spell must appear within the range of the spell. - Thus, it appears that the precise definition of "your location" is "within the range of the spell". With regard to Teleport Object, it is a spell with range: touch. Thus, the second paragraph quoted above cannot apply to it, as it would require that the object appear within touch range, which is obviously absurd. You want to say that the first part of that paragraph applies to it, but not the latter part, and define "your position" to be "anywhere that you could possibly teleport an object", which with the aid of scrying (or other more elaborate means, like a spy telling you when your target walked under a prearranged point via a telepathic bond) could be literally anywhere on the planet. It just seems like you're going through some bizarre contortions to bar teleportation spells from making rocks appear in mid-air, when the simpler way to deal with the problem is to find a set of rules that you're comfortable with for adjudicating the effects of falling objects (like the Heroes of Battle rules which others have already cited). I don't expect to convince you, though, since I and others made these arguments six months ago, and they obviously didn't change your mind.
Timlagor 03-07-07, 08:54 PM	Terms are defined at the time of casting and not at some point after the effect has taken place.
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 12:10 AM	Okay, after this post, I'm not posting again on this topic: the argument went on for a ridiculously long time on lgwizards six months ago, despite being rather one-sided (anyone who's interested, go to lgwizards and search the message archive for "teleporting into the air"), and I'd like to give this thread some chance to un-derail itself. Most of the people on that group are playing high level wizards who might have the ability to use just such a tactic(or the variants that you do) Furthermore, most of them have been playing said high level wizards in LG since before 3.5 - when WotC deliberately changed the language to emphasize you should not be dropping things onto other things. I would expect such a discussion to be almost as one-sided as if I went onto the lgbard group and said bards are useless. Now maybe, just maybe, they didn't mean to target your particular set of tactics, but I really wouldn't count on it. It just seems like you're going through some bizarre contortions to bar teleportation spells from making rocks appear in mid-air, when the simpler way to deal with the problem is to find a set of rules that you're comfortable with for adjudicating the effects of falling objects (like the Heroes of Battle rules which others have already cited). I don't expect to convince you, though, since I and others made these arguments six months ago, and they obviously didn't change your mind. Honestly, you've got your point of view(that conjuration spells are allowed to drop things onto targets) and I've got mine(that they're not). My viewpoint doesn't need contortions. You're not allowed to transport to your location - if your location is 30' away from you when you cast Summon Monster, it is still 30' away from you when you Teleport Others a rock to that location. Your viewpoint says that in one instance, it is your location(Summon Monster) and in another, it isn't(Teleport Others) That's completely bizarre from my point of view, but hey...
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 12:15 AM	Terms are defined at the time of casting and not at some point after the effect has taken place. That's completely debatable and unstable as a rules reference - if I DDoor with an object to a location I can see, then it has to end up on a surface, but if I DDoor with an object to a location I can't, then it doesn't?
Timlagor 03-08-07, 12:34 PM	No because I don't accept that line of sight constitutes the same location. My view is that: - you can DDoor anywhere you like - Dropping things is generally going to be completely useless as a tactic.
King Kashue 03-08-07, 12:37 PM	if I DDoor with an object to a location I can see, then it has to end up on a surface, but if I DDoor with an object to a location I can't, then it doesn't? That's what you're saying, you realize that, right? If I DDoor "10 feet forward" through a wall, and it turns out the other side is a straight drop 500 feet down, what happens? If I have to end up on a surface, as you claim, where do I end up? The spell doesn't give any sort of rules for that, despite it being a very significant possibility. To contrast, a similar possibility is DDooring blind into a solid object, and the spell does give the rules on that. Summon monster does not provide a parallel, since it requires line of effect, which DDoor does not. The first question isn't rhetorical, I'd actually like to know how you adjudicate that. I DDoor blind to a location unable to support me. You're saying that's illegal. What then happens? And more importantly, what rule are you basing it on?
Quntor 03-09-07, 01:01 AM	Hey thanks. I do not have it either but reference to the section of relevant text is helpful. Cheers. Remind me not to play in a mod written by rerednaw:)
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-07, 06:52 PM	That's what you're saying, you realize that, right? If I DDoor "10 feet forward" through a wall, and it turns out the other side is a straight drop 500 feet down, what happens? If I have to end up on a surface, as you claim, where do I end up? The first question isn't rhetorical, I'd actually like to know how you adjudicate that. I DDoor blind to a location unable to support me. You're saying that's illegal. What then happens? And more importantly, what rule are you basing it on? I'm not certain what's so complicated about your question - what do you think I'd tell you if you told me you tried to DDoor 50' straight up with no surface to support you? Nothing happens - I'd certainly warn you it would have no effect to do DDoor 50' straight up based on my interpretation of the rules before you cast the spell. How is your question any different than that? The only thing different is the obviousness of me warning you. And the same one I've been quoting - it is illegal to do a conjuration spell to an area without a surface.
King Kashue 03-09-07, 10:55 PM	How is your question any different than that? The only thing different is the obviousness of me warning you. And the same one I've been quoting - it is illegal to do a conjuration spell to an area without a surface. Do you adjudicate it that the spell fizzles or that the spell does nothing,...And My question would again bel "where do the rules actually say that the spell fizzles or not"? And, as stated, that rule does not say it is illegal to do a conjuration spell to an area without a surface. "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear within another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it" (PHB p.172) It does not say "the subject of a conjuration spell..." it says "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location"... Now, ignore transporting people or objects with DDoor, since that is vague-ish (and what we've been discussing so far). How does transporting only yourself to a new location qualify as "a creature or object brought into being or transported to your location"? The spot you cast the spell in is called "your current location" in the spell text and the spot you end up in is defined as "any other spot within range"...How is the caster "a creature brought into being or transported to his/her own location"?
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-07, 11:29 PM	[QUOTE=King Kashue;11722198]"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear within another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it" (PHB p.172) Now, ignore transporting people or objects with DDoor, since that is vague-ish (and what we've been discussing so far). How does transporting only yourself to a new location qualify as "a creature or object brought into being or transported to your location"?/QUOTE] You are a creature. You've been transported to your new location. You must therefore arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting you. The line does not say 'creatures other than yourself'
King Kashue 03-09-07, 11:46 PM	"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear within another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it" (PHB p.172) You are a creature. You've been transported to your new location. You must therefore arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting you. The line does not say 'creatures other than yourself' Well, according to the spell you travel from "your location" to "a spot"... Location is defined at the time of casting. The destination is not your location until you conjure yourself there, therefore it can't be "your location" for purposes of the sentence (which defines the legality. If it can't be your location until you get there, and you can't get there if it's your location, then you create a circular paradox)... I.e., the casting location and the destination cannot both be "your location" simultaneously... Once one becomes your current location, the other one ceases to be, and since the spell defines the place of casting as "your location" for purposes of the spell, how are you working out that it's the destination instead?