Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 10:13 PM	If I'm wielding 2 broadblade short swords and I fight defensively, do I get +2 from each sword totaling to +4, or do I just get +2? It's all Dodge bonuses so they normally would stack.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 10:19 PM	If I'm wielding 2 broadblade short swords and I fight defensively, do I get +2 from each sword totaling to +4, or do I just get +2? It's all Dodge bonuses so they normally would stack. I think this would fall under 'bonuses from the same source', a broadblade sword.
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 10:23 PM	Well, I've only seen that sentence for circumstance bonuses, and these are definately not the same source. One is the sword in my right hand, and the other is the sword in my left hand.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 10:25 PM	What book is this in so that I can look at it?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-08-07, 10:43 PM	Check the errata...each sword only gives you a +1 dodge bonus, not +2.
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 10:49 PM	So I'm assuming they stack since they were nerfed to +1 each?
bitznarf 03-08-07, 10:53 PM	So I'm assuming they stack since they were nerfed to +1 each? What does the nerf have to do with them stacking or not?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-08-07, 11:59 PM	I'd say they stack because all dodge bonuses stack and they are from different sources: Two seperate swords...
Timlagor 03-09-07, 09:13 AM	I probably wouldn't let them stack. Two Rings of Arcane Might don't stack with each other and the difference is pretty slim. Bonuses from the same source don't stack irrespective of the bonus type.
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 09:48 AM	But is isn't the same source. It's two different weapons.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-09-07, 10:31 AM	I probably wouldn't let them stack. Two Rings of Arcane Might don't stack with each other and the difference is pretty slim. Bonuses from the same source don't stack irrespective of the bonus type. Rings of Arcane Might? Do they provide a dodge bonus? If not, I don't see how it is relevant. All dodge bonuses always stack. It has to do with the bonus type in this case. The source doesn't matter.
bitznarf 03-09-07, 10:38 AM	Rings of Arcane Might? Do they provide a dodge bonus? If not, I don't see how it is relevant. All dodge bonuses always stack. It has to do with the bonus type in this case. The source doesn't matter. I was reading up on this in the 'Rules of the Games' articles by Skip Williams A Final Word That's about all there is. There's not much to stacking bonuses. Just remember the basic rules: * Bonuses with different names stack. * Bonuses with the same names overlap (don't stack) * Bonuses with no names stack with any other bonuses (but not with themselves). And remember the major exceptions: * Dodge bonuses stack with each other. * Circumstance bonuses stack when they arise from different circumstances. The way I read this is that regardless of the first 3 points, Dodge bonuses stack. The question would then become do we consider using 2 swords 2 bonuses, or just 1 for using a broadbladed short sword.
Timlagor 03-09-07, 11:58 AM	Rings of Arcane Might? Do they provide a dodge bonus? If not, I don't see how it is relevant. All dodge bonuses always stack. It has to do with the bonus type in this case. The source doesn't matter. They provide an unnamed bonus. Unnamed bonuses stack. But NO Bonus stacks with another bonus from the same source. In the case of the ring, the source is "a ring of Arcane Might" In the case of the sword, the source is "using a broadblade sword" (or whatever the correct wording should be). In both cases the second bonus counts as "the same source" and fails to stack. Dodge bonuses stack as opposed to bonuses of other types which do not stack with other bonuses of that type. This is completely separate from and does not overrule the fact that no bonus ever stacks with another bonus from the same source.
magebeast 03-09-07, 12:16 PM	They provide an unnamed bonus. NO Bonus stacks with another bonus from the same source. Wrong. Here are the relevant rules sections. Stacking In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. Emphasis mine. If we take a look at circumstance bonuses: Circumstance Modifier A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source. It explicitly notes that circumstances bonuses from the same source do not stack, because the rules in stacking earlier specifically exempted them from the listed ways in which bonuses generally do not stack. Dodge Bonus A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks. Again, emphasis mine. Dodge bonuses make no such explicit listing. That suggests to me that the two swords stack.
Mattastrophic 03-09-07, 02:23 PM	How would this then apply to multiple Defending weapons? Do they stack? -Matt
magebeast 03-09-07, 05:34 PM	How would this then apply to multiple Defending weapons? Do they stack? -Matt I would say yes, since it is a bonus that "stacks with all others." I haven't looked at it closely though.
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 08:03 PM	If you buy 2 defending weapons and take both the penalties to all your attacks, you should get both bonuses,
Timlagor 03-10-07, 11:54 AM	In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. The reason that the last sentence is tacked on like this is that the excert above comes from the PHB Glossary. It is a summary of the rules and the sentences should not be taken to be as coherently connected as you would expect in a normal rules section. I can't find anything very convincing either way in the main sections of the book. In particular the Dodge Bonuses are "otherwise specified" if they are from the same source. You definitely have a case but I'm still not completely convinced. My instinctive reaction to the two defending weapons is to allow them to stack but consistency may force me to disallow it (just don't ask if a defending longsword is the same as a defending longsword :rolleyes:). My biggest concern with your interpretation is that it opens the door for infinite stacking of any spell that grants a Dodge Bonus. (only haste springs to mind at present but there's no reason to suppose they won't add another even if it doesn't already exist) The rules in the Magic Overview carelessly ;) overlook specifically excluding dodge bonuses of the same strength from the same source from stacking.
Mattastrophic 03-12-07, 01:49 PM	Okay, so multiple Defending weapons stack... So I can equip myself with two Defending Spiked Gauntlets, Defending armor spikes, Defending shield spikes, then I can cast Chained Greater Magic Weapon to make them all +3, and then I can add +12 to my AC. In 3.0, you had to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the bonus, but in 3.5 you do not. Do they still stack? -Matt
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 01:55 PM	Sure, why not? You've spent 18k on each of those weapons, and cast a 7th level spell on top of that.
Timlagor 03-12-07, 08:39 PM	Sure, why not? You've spent 18k on each of those weapons, and cast a 7th level spell on top of that. Because 12AC for 18k is ridiculously cheap at the stage you'd be thinking about it.
bitznarf 03-12-07, 08:41 PM	Because 12AC for 18k is ridiculously cheap at the stage you'd be thinking about it. Isn't it 18k *per* item? (I'm not endorsing the tactic, just checking facts.)
Jay_Ibero_911 03-12-07, 09:11 PM	Each +1 defending weapon is 8k, and then the 6th level spell to make them all +3 weapons. 4 weapons (2 spiked gauntlets, armor spikes, shield spikes)for 32k and a 6th level spell slot (5th with metamagic school focus). It is a bargain actually...and since it is probably a gish that would want to do this, they probably have craft magic arms & armor to make the full compliment of defending weapons.
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 12:46 AM	Cost is 8000 + MW weapon each. Uses a 3rd level slot plus a Lesser Chain Rod charge (22,500 and can target entire party's weaponry as well.) Total cost is around 55000gp for +12 AC. No way I'm taking feats that I can duplicate with cash. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 01:01 AM	Cost is 8000 + MW weapon each. Uses a 3rd level slot plus a Lesser Chain Rod charge (22,500 and can target entire party's weaponry as well.) Total cost is around 55000gp for +12 AC. -Matt lesser chain rod...or a measely 6th level (5th w/MMSF) slot...if the caster has the feat...
Timlagor 03-13-07, 06:53 AM	OK you've persuaded me that defending weapons definitely don't stack ..never trust you instincts ;)
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 10:08 AM	OK you've persuaded me that defending weapons definitely don't stack ..never trust you instincts ;) Do they not stack because of the rules or do they not stack because of what someone could do with them? "Because it's broken" is not valid. And if stacking Defending weapons is "too broken," then so is stacking Broadblade Short Swords, because the same rules apply. -Matt
Alpha_Nerd 03-13-07, 01:43 PM	Defending specifically says in the description that is it a bonus that stacks with all other bonuses.
Timlagor 03-13-07, 03:56 PM	Bonuses from the same source do not stack. My position from the first has been that broadblades don't stack. My 'instinct' was to let defending weapons stack but as I said rules consistancy forces me to disallow them. The overpowered possibilities reinforce that. (though I'm disturbed to find that you can have a defending weapon that works even though you never actually use it as a weapon.. is that really true?)
magebeast 03-13-07, 06:57 PM	Bonuses from the same source do not stack. My position from the first has been that broadblades don't stack. My 'instinct' was to let defending weapons stack but as I said rules consistancy forces me to disallow them. The overpowered possibilities reinforce that. (though I'm disturbed to find that you can have a defending weapon that works even though you never actually use it as a weapon.. is that really true?) You have to attempt to attack with a defending weapon to use it, I thought? You can miss, but you have to make the attack, I thought.
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 07:20 PM	You have to attempt to attack with a defending weapon to use it, I thought? You can miss, but you have to make the attack, I thought. Not in 3.5. -Matt
Mithrus 03-15-07, 09:07 AM	Each +1 defending weapon is 8k, and then the 6th level spell to make them all +3 weapons. 4 weapons (2 spiked gauntlets, armor spikes, shield spikes)for 32k and a 6th level spell slot (5th with metamagic school focus). It is a bargain actually...and since it is probably a gish that would want to do this, they probably have craft magic arms & armor to make the full compliment of defending weapons. Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn. Emphasis mine. Sorry, feel free to declare which of those weapons you are using. A person can have at most one primary and one secondary weapon (excluding natural weapons). The exception would be races with multiple limbs, but none are LG legal for players...Short of using dancing, you can't have more than two defending weapons active at once.
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 10:28 AM	Short of using dancing, you can't have more than two defending weapons active at once. See my example. Two gauntlets, armor spikes, and a spiked shield, Animated if necessary. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 03-15-07, 11:47 AM	Emphasis mine. Sorry, feel free to declare which of those weapons you are using. A person can have at most one primary and one secondary weapon (excluding natural weapons). The exception would be races with multiple limbs, but none are LG legal for players...Short of using dancing, you can't have more than two defending weapons active at once. It just says that you have to make the decision on defending before you use them that turn. It doesn't say you HAVE to use them. The point of that particular statement is to prevent people with +5 defending weapons from making an attack and THEN shifting points to defense. You are drawing a conclusion about what you have to do when the rule only makes clear what you can't do. Just like you make your decisions for power attack before you make any attacks on your turn, you don't have to actually make an attack to decide how much you are shifting into power attack for a turn (though in that case it doesn't actually provide any benefit...).
Mithrus 03-15-07, 12:36 PM	See my example. Two gauntlets, armor spikes, and a spiked shield, Animated if necessary. -Matt Ok, I don't think you read my post close enough. You CAN'T use more than two weapons at once (ignoring multiple limbs for now). You have a primary and an secondary/offhand attack. TWF lowers the penalties, but you still only have at most two weapons. Now, you can have three technically via the animated shield trick (although I am unsure if that is legal). Exactly which weapons are primary and which are secondary of the 4 you listed?
Mithrus 03-15-07, 12:38 PM	It just says that you have to make the decision on defending before you use them that turn. It doesn't say you HAVE to use them. Ok, then with that line of logic I can have the shield on my back and still get the defending bonus, which is silly and incorrect.
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	Exactly which weapons are primary and which are secondary of the 4 you listed? Doesn't matter; see the FAQ. For example, let's say I have BAB +11. I am also Hasted. I get four attacks as part of a full attack action. I can take my first attack with my right-handed gauntlet, my second attack with my left-handed gauntlet, my third attack with my spiked shield, and my fourth attack with my armor spikes, if I so desire. All with no penalties. Only when I wish to take more than four attacks do I have worrying about which is which. -Matt
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	Ok, then with that line of logic I can have the shield on my back and still get the defending bonus, which is silly and incorrect. You would not, because you may be carrying the shield, but you are not wielding the shield. -Matt
Mattastrophic 03-15-07, 01:55 PM	But anyways,the "how many weapons can I wield?" question is not important; what is important is: "Do Defending weapons and broadblade short swords stack with each other?" -Matt
Alpha_Nerd 03-15-07, 02:24 PM	haha, yes. 2 defending broadblade shortswords, defending armor spikes, defending shield spikes on an animated shield. at 15th with an ioun stone makes those all +4, +20 AC while fighting Defensively.
bitznarf 04-27-07, 04:42 PM	Sorry to raise this from the dead (sorta) but I thought I would post something that hasn't been mentioned yet that I think has some bearing on the situation. Q: Can I use two beads of karma to increase my caster level by 8? A: No. While unnamed bonuses generally stack, duplicate bonuses from the same source do not. Thus, if 2 separate beads of karma are considered the same source and don't stack, multiple defending weapons or multiple broadblade short swords don't stack either.