can a dwarf be a cleric of Joramy [Archive] - Wizards Community

can a dwarf be a cleric of Joramy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clannagh
11-20-06, 01:06 AM Joramy has Core worshippers human and common worshippers others.. so .. can a Dwarf be a cleric of Joramy.
Japangirl
11-20-06, 01:15 AM I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but I'll let someone who knows a little more about the Deities answer this one as a for-sure thing.
DuctShuiTengu
11-20-06, 01:33 AM If the deity lists "Others" for common worshippers, it means this deity commonly accepts worshippers outside of the races listed for core worshippers. If "Others" appears for uncommon worshippers, it means this deity accepts worshippers outside of the races listed for core worshippers but only in certain regions of the Flanaess. If "Others" is not listed for common or uncommon worshippers, this deity restricts its worshippers to the races listed for core worshippers. There are two exceptions to this rule. First, any deity that lists Humans or any of the Human subraces (Baklunish, Suel, Flan, Oeridian, Touv, Olman) under core worshippers will accept any race as worshippers; it is just fairly rare in most parts of the Flanaess (with the exception of deities with "Others" listed for common or uncommon worshippers).

So:

"Others" listed as worshippers
Humans listed as worshippers

Yes, your dwarf may follow Joramy.
gomeztoo
11-20-06, 04:31 AM Welcome into the fold...
Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe?
It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it?
Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty!

Voa Zinavovrack,
waste druidess,
demonstrating Joramy's teachings
_m_
11-20-06, 08:40 PM Welcome into the fold...
Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe?
It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it?
Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty!

Voa Zinavovrack,
waste druidess,
demonstrating Joramy's teachings

iirc, the dwarf in question is a bright sands'er. he already does the whole fire lovin thing.
copper_wyrmling
11-20-06, 10:17 PM iirc, the dwarf in question is a bright sands'er. he already does the whole fire lovin thing.

As he should! Why, my first encounter with creatures born of Joramy's fire was in the lava forges of the Khund dwarves! But by what right do you speak for the Lady of Flames, Zoa? What fires have YOU passed through?

-Yolande Morgenrood
High Priestess of Joramy and Sacred Exorcist of Perrenland
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness"
clannagh
11-21-06, 12:39 AM Welcome into the fold...
Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe?
It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it?
Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty!

Voa Zinavovrack,
waste druidess,
demonstrating Joramy's teachings

as m points out he is a badlands dwarf and Joramy is a Bright Sand Diety. He also has access to contemplative of Joramy from a non Bright Sands mod.

The dwarf in question already has levels as a clreic of Gendwar Angrim that benefit him more gamewise but atoning to Joramy would be more flavorful and in character.
Gwumph
11-21-06, 01:51 AM Ahhh

The joys of campaigning with a Joramy Cleric!!! almost makes you want to put them to sleep and do with out the healing!!!
jhorred
11-21-06, 03:31 AM Ah my bright sands character is a fire loving dwarf that has access to comtemplative of Joramy as well, probably same mod, but it doesn't do me much good as an arcane caster.

but I did think about it and was a little disappointed to find out it was a divine only prestige class.

I could see him comtemplating.. "Do I parboil him, or just fireball him?"
_m_
11-21-06, 06:11 PM Ah my bright sands character is a fire loving dwarf that has access to comtemplative of Joramy as well, probably same mod, but it doesn't do me much good as an arcane caster.

but I did think about it and was a little disappointed to find out it was a divine only prestige class.

I could see him comtemplating.. "Do I parboil him, or just fireball him?"

bah. your all crazy. il stick with my frost / eletric loving toons. fire is just too... burny.
gomeztoo
11-22-06, 02:36 PM But by what right do you speak for the Lady of Flames, Zoa? What fires have YOU passed through?

I speak not for the lady, but for myself, and through this, I speak as she desires.
We pass through many fires, though we don't always get hurt. And hurt we must, or we don't learn, and become puppets of those who dominate us.
So spread the wastes to the north and east, so people learn what fire means!
The rest is lies. Unless, of course, I change my mind.

Voa
Puggle Halfwine
11-23-06, 08:41 AM Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE!

...have some cookies. One hundred percent fiend free since 595cy!

- Vashan "Whom shall I atone to today?" Von Sanguine.
Arvagor
11-23-06, 11:19 AM Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE!Hmph... Sounds like a Pholtan :yuck:
- Vashan [...] Von Sanguine. Vashan "of the blood"? Who did you originally worship? :schemes:
copper_wyrmling
11-23-06, 05:32 PM Yolande grins at Voa.

"Speak as you will, but be prepared to back up your words with actions, Voa. Argument without the courage to risk all for your convictions is mere mockery. So spread your wastes and prove yourself if you can, or join me in MY war, and bring Joramy's flame and light into the dark of the Abyss!"

Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE!

...have some cookies. One hundred percent fiend free since 595cy!

- Vashan "Whom shall I atone to today?" Von Sanguine.

"Away with your fiendish cookies!" (Detects Evil on cookies) "Anyway, when I met that Deva of Pholtus, she didn't seem that interested in smiting me, in fact she wanted my help with her little pit fiend problem :P But what would you know of the true Light? Choose a cause and fight for it, fool, your indecision cheapens all that you claim to honour!"

-Yolande Morgenrood
High Priestess of Joramy and Sacred Exorcist of Perrenland
(Neutral Good, and with a slightly different take on Joramy's teachings to the more common Neutral viewpoint, supported by her recent personal meeting with her deity ;) )
Cynric
11-23-06, 05:49 PM Cynric, who has adventured with both Yolande and Vashaan, simply shakes his head, turns into a sheep, baah's at yalande and sicks his cat onto any pholtans he sees, yes Vashaan, that means you!!!
_m_
11-23-06, 06:00 PM Cynric, who has adventured with both Yolande and Vashaan, simply shakes his head, turns into a sheep, baah's at yalande and sicks his cat onto any pholtans he sees, yes Vashaan, that means you!!!

alvin runs screaming around the room, holding a scrap of paper with a rune of insanity scribbled on it (in other words, offers a prayer to zagyg)

... then pats cynrics kitty.
Japangirl
11-23-06, 06:45 PM Liliana looks at all of you with wonder at your insanity (except Alvin, that's expected apparently) and quietly worships Kuroth in the corner before stealing all your gold.
_m_
11-23-06, 06:56 PM Liliana looks at all of you with wonder at your insanity (except Alvin, that's expected apparently) and quietly worships Kuroth in the corner before stealing all your gold.

haha! jokes on you sucker, i HAVE no gol.... oh...

:weep: im broke. :weep:
Cynric
11-23-06, 06:58 PM alvin runs screaming around the room, holding a scrap of paper with a rune of insanity scribbled on it (in other words, offers a prayer to zagyg)

... then pats cynrics kitty.

Which provokes an AO, I think alvin dies now. Unless you can beat a +35 grapple check?
_m_
11-23-06, 07:09 PM Which provokes an AO, I think alvin dies now. Unless you can beat a +35 grapple check?

yeah, pretty easily actually.

i have flicker: immidiate action (ie. before you grapple) short range dimension door.

*alvin: pats kitty... flickers... pats kitty again*

... pats cynric.
Japangirl
11-23-06, 07:33 PM haha! jokes on you sucker, i HAVE no gol.... oh...

:weep: im broke. :weep:

You have shiny magical items. Those are now mine. :D
_m_
11-23-06, 07:40 PM You have shiny magical items. Those are now mine. :D

but.... but i...
no stealy!

wait i know.

*alvin casts a spell, then hides*
Cynric
11-23-06, 07:42 PM yeah, pretty easily actually.

i have flicker: immidiate action (ie. before you grapple) short range dimension door.

*alvin: pats kitty... flickers... pats kitty again*

... pats cynric.

And then Cynric puts you in an enveloping cocoon.:D
_m_
11-23-06, 07:47 PM And then Cynric puts you in an enveloping cocoon.:D

did you roll a spot?
gomeztoo
11-24-06, 08:42 AM Voa turns to Yolanda.
"These are examples of your interpretation of the faith? Interesting pack. I stick with my jackals though. They seem far more trustworthy.
Strong and hardened to the wastes.
You may spread your word into the Abyss, and bring the flame there. The blood war serves us well. But to think that to be the goal in life is foolish. Grow strong, grow tough, grow hard. But don't let moral issues cloud your mind.
Fight evil, fight good, anywhere were the free word is imprisoned by tyranny or censorship. The word IS a sword, and we should use it that way."
Japangirl
11-24-06, 11:44 PM but.... but i...
no stealy!

wait i know.

*alvin casts a spell, then hides*

Too late! Muahahahaha!

Oh. Wait. You have spells. Umm, if I give you back some shinies will you invisible me? Pleeeeaaase?
_m_
11-26-06, 05:35 PM Too late! Muahahahaha!

Oh. Wait. You have spells. Umm, if I give you back some shinies will you invisible me? Pleeeeaaase?

deal.

just put the shinies on the floor next to the pot plant in the corner... because i dont want to move to get them (mainly because my hide is more than 50 better than my move silently)
Japangirl
11-26-06, 05:55 PM deal.

just put the shinies on the floor next to the pot plant in the corner... because i dont want to move to get them (mainly because my hide is more than 50 better than my move silently)

And done! WOOHOO I can steal everybody else's stuff now!
_m_
11-26-06, 06:02 PM And done! WOOHOO I can steal everybody else's stuff now!

betchya im still better hidden than you are.
Japangirl
11-26-06, 06:12 PM Betcha you're right. I am only +10 to hide from being a halfling and having +6 Dex, no ranks at all.
_m_
11-26-06, 06:16 PM Betcha you're right. I am only +10 to hide from being a halfling and having +6 Dex, no ranks at all.

well, thats another + 20 from invis

so on a take 20, you're at 50. thats not awfull. but im still a fair bit higher than that.
Japangirl
11-26-06, 06:18 PM If I don't move, it's +40 from invis. So taking 20 in one spot would give me a 70. But to take stuff/poke someone's kidneys out, I have to move. That means only +30 instead of +50.
_m_
11-26-06, 06:21 PM If I don't move, it's +40 from invis. So taking 20 in one spot would give me a 70. But to take stuff/poke someone's kidneys out, I have to move. That means only +30.

invis: 40
take 20: 20
ranks and innate: 20
other spells: 12
gear: 9
misc: 2

so: 103 on a hide check. thats not terrible.
Japangirl
11-26-06, 06:29 PM I think I'll live with a 70 :).

My rogue kills things. She isn't a scout. She doesn't hide, move silently, steal, or disable traps very well, though she finds the traps and can appraise the items she wants to steal. She lies, tumbles, climbs, and escapes well, because those are combat-useful abilities. With no chance to get a hide-in-plain-sight ability, hide was just never on a very limited skill list choice for her.
_m_
11-26-06, 06:53 PM I think I'll live with a 70 :).

My rogue kills things. She isn't a scout. She doesn't hide, move silently, steal, or disable traps very well, though she finds the traps and can appraise the items she wants to steal. She lies, tumbles, climbs, and escapes well, because those are combat-useful abilities. With no chance to get a hide-in-plain-sight ability, hide was just never on a very limited skill list choice for her.

hide was never really on alvins list (yeah he dumped ranks in it, but only because he was scared at low levels), being an evocationist and all. he just kind of got all that by accident.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 11-20-06, 01:06 AM	Joramy has Core worshippers human and common worshippers others.. so .. can a Dwarf be a cleric of Joramy.
Japangirl 11-20-06, 01:15 AM	I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but I'll let someone who knows a little more about the Deities answer this one as a for-sure thing.
DuctShuiTengu 11-20-06, 01:33 AM	If the deity lists "Others" for common worshippers, it means this deity commonly accepts worshippers outside of the races listed for core worshippers. If "Others" appears for uncommon worshippers, it means this deity accepts worshippers outside of the races listed for core worshippers but only in certain regions of the Flanaess. If "Others" is not listed for common or uncommon worshippers, this deity restricts its worshippers to the races listed for core worshippers. There are two exceptions to this rule. First, any deity that lists Humans or any of the Human subraces (Baklunish, Suel, Flan, Oeridian, Touv, Olman) under core worshippers will accept any race as worshippers; it is just fairly rare in most parts of the Flanaess (with the exception of deities with "Others" listed for common or uncommon worshippers). So: "Others" listed as worshippers Humans listed as worshippers Yes, your dwarf may follow Joramy.
gomeztoo 11-20-06, 04:31 AM	Welcome into the fold... Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe? It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it? Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty! Voa Zinavovrack, waste druidess, demonstrating Joramy's teachings
_m_ 11-20-06, 08:40 PM	Welcome into the fold... Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe? It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it? Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty! Voa Zinavovrack, waste druidess, demonstrating Joramy's teachings iirc, the dwarf in question is a bright sands'er. he already does the whole fire lovin thing.
copper_wyrmling 11-20-06, 10:17 PM	iirc, the dwarf in question is a bright sands'er. he already does the whole fire lovin thing. As he should! Why, my first encounter with creatures born of Joramy's fire was in the lava forges of the Khund dwarves! But by what right do you speak for the Lady of Flames, Zoa? What fires have YOU passed through? -Yolande Morgenrood High Priestess of Joramy and Sacred Exorcist of Perrenland "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness"
clannagh 11-21-06, 12:39 AM	Welcome into the fold... Now, whey WOULD you want to worship Joramy? Being a dwarf? Shouldn't you hide underground where it's cool and dark and safe? It's not all volcanoes, you know. We need people who can speak up and say their thing... who can go out tehre and confront people - yes, be social, be confrontational - scaring isn't it? Can you, eh? Speak up, shorty! Voa Zinavovrack, waste druidess, demonstrating Joramy's teachings as m points out he is a badlands dwarf and Joramy is a Bright Sand Diety. He also has access to contemplative of Joramy from a non Bright Sands mod. The dwarf in question already has levels as a clreic of Gendwar Angrim that benefit him more gamewise but atoning to Joramy would be more flavorful and in character.
Gwumph 11-21-06, 01:51 AM	Ahhh The joys of campaigning with a Joramy Cleric!!! almost makes you want to put them to sleep and do with out the healing!!!
jhorred 11-21-06, 03:31 AM	Ah my bright sands character is a fire loving dwarf that has access to comtemplative of Joramy as well, probably same mod, but it doesn't do me much good as an arcane caster. but I did think about it and was a little disappointed to find out it was a divine only prestige class. I could see him comtemplating.. "Do I parboil him, or just fireball him?"
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:11 PM	Ah my bright sands character is a fire loving dwarf that has access to comtemplative of Joramy as well, probably same mod, but it doesn't do me much good as an arcane caster. but I did think about it and was a little disappointed to find out it was a divine only prestige class. I could see him comtemplating.. "Do I parboil him, or just fireball him?" bah. your all crazy. il stick with my frost / eletric loving toons. fire is just too... burny.
gomeztoo 11-22-06, 02:36 PM	But by what right do you speak for the Lady of Flames, Zoa? What fires have YOU passed through? I speak not for the lady, but for myself, and through this, I speak as she desires. We pass through many fires, though we don't always get hurt. And hurt we must, or we don't learn, and become puppets of those who dominate us. So spread the wastes to the north and east, so people learn what fire means! The rest is lies. Unless, of course, I change my mind. Voa
Puggle Halfwine 11-23-06, 08:41 AM	Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE! ...have some cookies. One hundred percent fiend free since 595cy! - Vashan "Whom shall I atone to today?" Von Sanguine.
Arvagor 11-23-06, 11:19 AM	Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE!Hmph... Sounds like a Pholtan :yuck: - Vashan [...] Von Sanguine. Vashan "of the blood"? Who did you originally worship? :schemes:
copper_wyrmling 11-23-06, 05:32 PM	Yolande grins at Voa. "Speak as you will, but be prepared to back up your words with actions, Voa. Argument without the courage to risk all for your convictions is mere mockery. So spread your wastes and prove yourself if you can, or join me in MY war, and bring Joramy's flame and light into the dark of the Abyss!" Bah to all you fire worshipping heathens...! the One True God(tm) shall smite you down-down-DOWN and show you the folly of your fiend-worshipping ways... show you through the power of LOVE! Red hot steamy LOVE! ...have some cookies. One hundred percent fiend free since 595cy! - Vashan "Whom shall I atone to today?" Von Sanguine. "Away with your fiendish cookies!" (Detects Evil on cookies) "Anyway, when I met that Deva of Pholtus, she didn't seem that interested in smiting me, in fact she wanted my help with her little pit fiend problem :P But what would you know of the true Light? Choose a cause and fight for it, fool, your indecision cheapens all that you claim to honour!" -Yolande Morgenrood High Priestess of Joramy and Sacred Exorcist of Perrenland (Neutral Good, and with a slightly different take on Joramy's teachings to the more common Neutral viewpoint, supported by her recent personal meeting with her deity ;) )
Cynric 11-23-06, 05:49 PM	Cynric, who has adventured with both Yolande and Vashaan, simply shakes his head, turns into a sheep, baah's at yalande and sicks his cat onto any pholtans he sees, yes Vashaan, that means you!!!
_m_ 11-23-06, 06:00 PM	Cynric, who has adventured with both Yolande and Vashaan, simply shakes his head, turns into a sheep, baah's at yalande and sicks his cat onto any pholtans he sees, yes Vashaan, that means you!!! alvin runs screaming around the room, holding a scrap of paper with a rune of insanity scribbled on it (in other words, offers a prayer to zagyg) ... then pats cynrics kitty.
Japangirl 11-23-06, 06:45 PM	Liliana looks at all of you with wonder at your insanity (except Alvin, that's expected apparently) and quietly worships Kuroth in the corner before stealing all your gold.
_m_ 11-23-06, 06:56 PM	Liliana looks at all of you with wonder at your insanity (except Alvin, that's expected apparently) and quietly worships Kuroth in the corner before stealing all your gold. haha! jokes on you sucker, i HAVE no gol.... oh... :weep: im broke. :weep:
Cynric 11-23-06, 06:58 PM	alvin runs screaming around the room, holding a scrap of paper with a rune of insanity scribbled on it (in other words, offers a prayer to zagyg) ... then pats cynrics kitty. Which provokes an AO, I think alvin dies now. Unless you can beat a +35 grapple check?
_m_ 11-23-06, 07:09 PM	Which provokes an AO, I think alvin dies now. Unless you can beat a +35 grapple check? yeah, pretty easily actually. i have flicker: immidiate action (ie. before you grapple) short range dimension door. alvin: pats kitty... flickers... pats kitty again ... pats cynric.
Japangirl 11-23-06, 07:33 PM	haha! jokes on you sucker, i HAVE no gol.... oh... :weep: im broke. :weep: You have shiny magical items. Those are now mine. :D
_m_ 11-23-06, 07:40 PM	You have shiny magical items. Those are now mine. :D but.... but i... no stealy! wait i know. alvin casts a spell, then hides
Cynric 11-23-06, 07:42 PM	yeah, pretty easily actually. i have flicker: immidiate action (ie. before you grapple) short range dimension door. alvin: pats kitty... flickers... pats kitty again ... pats cynric. And then Cynric puts you in an enveloping cocoon.:D
_m_ 11-23-06, 07:47 PM	And then Cynric puts you in an enveloping cocoon.:D did you roll a spot?
gomeztoo 11-24-06, 08:42 AM	Voa turns to Yolanda. "These are examples of your interpretation of the faith? Interesting pack. I stick with my jackals though. They seem far more trustworthy. Strong and hardened to the wastes. You may spread your word into the Abyss, and bring the flame there. The blood war serves us well. But to think that to be the goal in life is foolish. Grow strong, grow tough, grow hard. But don't let moral issues cloud your mind. Fight evil, fight good, anywhere were the free word is imprisoned by tyranny or censorship. The word IS a sword, and we should use it that way."
Japangirl 11-24-06, 11:44 PM	but.... but i... no stealy! wait i know. alvin casts a spell, then hides Too late! Muahahahaha! Oh. Wait. You have spells. Umm, if I give you back some shinies will you invisible me? Pleeeeaaase?
_m_ 11-26-06, 05:35 PM	Too late! Muahahahaha! Oh. Wait. You have spells. Umm, if I give you back some shinies will you invisible me? Pleeeeaaase? deal. just put the shinies on the floor next to the pot plant in the corner... because i dont want to move to get them (mainly because my hide is more than 50 better than my move silently)
Japangirl 11-26-06, 05:55 PM	deal. just put the shinies on the floor next to the pot plant in the corner... because i dont want to move to get them (mainly because my hide is more than 50 better than my move silently) And done! WOOHOO I can steal everybody else's stuff now!
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:02 PM	And done! WOOHOO I can steal everybody else's stuff now! betchya im still better hidden than you are.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:12 PM	Betcha you're right. I am only +10 to hide from being a halfling and having +6 Dex, no ranks at all.
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:16 PM	Betcha you're right. I am only +10 to hide from being a halfling and having +6 Dex, no ranks at all. well, thats another + 20 from invis so on a take 20, you're at 50. thats not awfull. but im still a fair bit higher than that.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:18 PM	If I don't move, it's +40 from invis. So taking 20 in one spot would give me a 70. But to take stuff/poke someone's kidneys out, I have to move. That means only +30 instead of +50.
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:21 PM	If I don't move, it's +40 from invis. So taking 20 in one spot would give me a 70. But to take stuff/poke someone's kidneys out, I have to move. That means only +30. invis: 40 take 20: 20 ranks and innate: 20 other spells: 12 gear: 9 misc: 2 so: 103 on a hide check. thats not terrible.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:29 PM	I think I'll live with a 70 :). My rogue kills things. She isn't a scout. She doesn't hide, move silently, steal, or disable traps very well, though she finds the traps and can appraise the items she wants to steal. She lies, tumbles, climbs, and escapes well, because those are combat-useful abilities. With no chance to get a hide-in-plain-sight ability, hide was just never on a very limited skill list choice for her.
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:53 PM	I think I'll live with a 70 :). My rogue kills things. She isn't a scout. She doesn't hide, move silently, steal, or disable traps very well, though she finds the traps and can appraise the items she wants to steal. She lies, tumbles, climbs, and escapes well, because those are combat-useful abilities. With no chance to get a hide-in-plain-sight ability, hide was just never on a very limited skill list choice for her. hide was never really on alvins list (yeah he dumped ranks in it, but only because he was scared at low levels), being an evocationist and all. he just kind of got all that by accident.