Can a wizard sell a spell book? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a wizard sell a spell book? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
soonerpat
02-21-07, 06:16 PM Can a wizard sell a spellbook?

If you can, what do you get for it an how do determine the value?

Is it 100 gp/page?

Thanks - pat
Britt
02-21-07, 06:19 PM You sell for 50 gp/page.
boolean
02-21-07, 10:14 PM You sell for 50 gp/page.
Shouldn't the price be based on how many spells (and what level) are scribed in the book?

What if the character has an ability to use less pages per spell when scribing (e.g. Geometer's "Book of Geometry" ability, Boccob's Blessed Book)? This means there isn't always the usual correlation between number of pages and spell level.
Britt
02-21-07, 10:23 PM The rules are in the PH and I'm pretty sure it's 50 gp/page.
Southernskies
02-22-07, 08:04 AM Several points to remember:

1. You can only sell spellbooks you have bought onto your MIL.

2. All items on the MIL are sold at half price.

3. Most spellbooks are currently priced at 50gp/page in adventures, so you would sell them for 25gp/page.

4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else.
Since it has also cost you 100gp/page to scribe in the first place and can't sell it to another PC, why would you want to? Admittedly, you can scribe a second spellbook at 1/2 price (so 50gp/page), which becomes cost neutral based on its value.
ranagrande
02-22-07, 08:32 AM 4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else.
Since it has also cost you 100gp/page to scribe in the first place and can't sell it to another PC, why would you want to? Admittedly, you can scribe a second spellbook at 1/2 price (so 50gp/page), which becomes cost neutral based on its value.

Many wizards sell their personal spellbooks after getting a Boccob's Blessed Book. Now that the BBB is Open access, I expect that this will become even more common.
chesspiece
02-22-07, 11:26 AM 1. You can only sell spellbooks you have bought onto your MIL.

2. All items on the MIL are sold at half price.

3. Most spellbooks are currently priced at 50gp/page in adventures, so you would sell them for 25gp/page.

4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else.

1. You can sell the spellbook that you started with (Wiz1 gives you a book for free). Of course you can't sell for more than you've paid for something in LG so it's worth up to 0GPs (includes starting cantrips & level1 spells + free spells from levelling). This maximum cap will increase equal to what you've spent on learning & copying spells to date. These values will appear on your ARs - but not your MIL.

2&3. Per PHB rules, 50gp/page of spells _is half price_! It just happens that this is the same price that PCs (and everyone else) buys used spellbooks at. As opposed to the 100gp/page that it takes the original owner to scribe spells into the book in the first place. (No sale price exception is given for copying spells that you already know - which is more likely with the Master Spellbook rules.) It helps me to think of spellbooks as working like Trade Goods.

4. Yup, better copy them into a BBB first.
kegdrainer
02-22-07, 09:53 PM Since you all are talking about spellbooks, rather than starting a new topic for a short answer, I will toss it in here.

My character has a spellbook when he was a wizard but died and has not taken any wizard levels (was F1/W1, now F2/Rgr3).

If I take a level in wizard, do I get a new spellbook with new spells? Can I still use the old one?
soonerpat
02-23-07, 12:02 AM This has raised some interesting questions, and at the risk of personal loss... Here's what I was planning and why I asked the question.

My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips.

If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it.

While my wizard will be happy to recoup most of the gold spent on his book, it doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the rules, which is to be able to recoup 1/2 of what you sell something for.

May I suggest to Britt and the other leaders that they write a brief dispel confusion to clarify this soon to be *very* common event?

I see three options:

Let us sell the book at 50GP / page
Rule that cantrips are worth 0 GP/page, but the rest are sold for 50 GP/page
Use a formula like the one below, which is really too much work for the little gain.

I recommend #1 (because I'm greedy! :P ), but think #2 is simple enough for everyone to remember and at least prevents wizards from making about 800 GP off their cantrips. #3 is simply too much for people to have to keep track of.

Pat Smith

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
PS. here's a geeky examination of a method to estimate very closely the number of pages you actually paid for.. Skip this if you want to avoid extreme Geek analysis syndrome (EGAS)

Count the pages in the book: P
Count the cantrips in the Book: C
Note the wizard's Level: L

A close estimate of the free pages a wizard of level L has received from levels is: (L * L)/2. (The exact formula is 0.5023*L*L + .9368*L + 1.3692, but that's really geekin' out on it!).

The number of pages that may be sold at 50 GP each is: P - C - F.

These pages are sold at 50 GP/page.

So for my wizard, at 4th level:

43 Pages in the book. P = 43
15 Cantrips. C = 15
4th Level (4*4/2 = 8). F = 8

43-15-8 = 20 pages.

Using this rule I can sell the book for 1,000 GP.
Japangirl
02-23-07, 12:30 AM This has raised some interesting questions, and at the risk of personal loss... Here's what I was planning and why I asked the question.

My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips.

If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it.

While my wizard will be happy to recoup most of the gold spent on his book, it doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the rules, which is to be able to recoup 1/2 of what you sell something for.

May I suggest to Britt and the other leaders that they write a brief dispel confusion to clarify this soon to be *very* common event?

I see three options:

Let us sell the book at 50GP / page
Rule that cantrips are worth 0 GP/page, but the rest are sold for 50 GP/page
Use a formula like the one below, which is really too much work for the little gain.

I recommend #1 (because I'm greedy! :P ), but think #2 is simple enough for everyone to remember and at least prevents wizards from making about 800 GP off their cantrips. #3 is simply too much for people to have to keep track of.

Pat Smith

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
PS. here's a geeky examination of a method to estimate very closely the number of pages you actually paid for.. Skip this if you want to avoid extreme Geek analysis syndrome (EGAS)

Count the pages in the book: P
Count the cantrips in the Book: C
Note the wizard's Level: L

A close estimate of the free pages a wizard of level L has received from levels is: (L * L)/2. (The exact formula is 0.5023*L*L + .9368*L + 1.3692, but that's really geekin' out on it!).

The number of pages that may be sold at 50 GP each is: P - C - F.

These pages are sold at 50 GP/page.

So for my wizard, at 4th level:

43 Pages in the book. P = 43
15 Cantrips. C = 15
4th Level (4*4/2 = 8). F = 8

43-15-8 = 20 pages.

Using this rule I can sell the book for 1,000 GP.

Wow. Someone has too much time on his hands . . .
Southernskies
02-23-07, 03:26 AM My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips.

Keep in mind that Boccobs requires secret page, which is a 3rd level spell. You're going to either need to be a 5th level wizard or spend an extra 4,875 gp buying the 13 scrolls you need.
chesspiece
02-23-07, 03:14 PM At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips.

If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it.

Are you saying that you have bought 22 spell levels (and have 2200GPs spent recorded on your ARs)? And that you only received 21 pages / 43 for free? That doesn't sound right to me.

At 4th level, my Int20 Wiz generalist had:
0th:19 (all free at 1st level),
1st: 11 (8 free at 1st level, 2 free at 2nd level),
2nd: 5 (4 free from 3rd & 4th levels).
This meant I had 40 pages used in my book but had only paid for 3 of them (300gp). So if I sold that book, I couldn't receive more than 300GPs.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here.
chesspiece
02-23-07, 05:05 PM Since you all are talking about spellbooks, rather than starting a new topic for a short answer, I will toss it in here.

My character has a spellbook when he was a wizard but died and has not taken any wizard levels (was F1/W1, now F2/Rgr3).

If I take a level in wizard, do I get a new spellbook with new spells? Can I still use the old one?

Your question is similar to a debate that's gone around a number of times regarding what happens to the 2 free spells / level for a wizard that dies & relevels.

Since the Circle hasn't made a campaign ruling on this, it is 100% up to the table Judge that you ask when you level.

In your case:
- old book is gone (it was a class feature)
- old book is there and you relearn the exact same spells (no new spellbook)
- old book is there and you get a new one but you no longer "know" spells in your old book; you can attempt to relearn & scribe or master the old book
- old book is there and you get a new one and you still know all the old spells (unless banned due to specializing)

The benefit (3+Int 1st level spells) isn't that big either way. You can't sell the book either since you paid 0GPs for it.

For now... table variation. Britt has recently indicated that in these cases (undefined rules with lasting impact on your PC's equipment) the table Judge who makes the ruling has the final say. So no fear that you'll be altered / voided / ruled illegal / penalized at a future table. (Unless of course the ruling was clearly mistaken.) But you might want your Judge to note / initialize their ruling on the AR.

My advice to Judges: If a Player asks a question like this, make a note of your ruling on the AR in question. Players shouldn't be allowed to "Judge shop" for rulings. Of course if they ask when not playing at your table, then they can still beat the system.
soonerpat
02-23-07, 05:54 PM Are you saying that you have bought 22 spell levels (and have 2200GPs spent recorded on your ARs)? And that you only received 21 pages / 43 for free? That doesn't sound right to me.

At 4th level, my Int20 Wiz generalist had:
0th:19 (all free at 1st level),
1st: 11 (8 free at 1st level, 2 free at 2nd level),
2nd: 5 (4 free from 3rd & 4th levels).
This meant I had 40 pages used in my book but had only paid for 3 of them (300gp). So if I sold that book, I couldn't receive more than 300GPs.

Just to make sure we're on the same page here.

I double checked and found an error in my calculation.

My evoker at 4th level will have the following free spell pages:
13 cantrips, 8 level 1 and 4 level two. Total = 29 pages.

I will have purchased 10 level 1 spells, and two level two spells. Total cost (some were from an AR Spell book 50 GP/page) was 1,200 GP.

So my spell book, at 50GP/page would be worth 2,150 and I paid 1,200 for it. Not a bad deal.

Also, thanks to the person who reminded me secret page is 3rd level.. guess I'll have to wait for 5th level. It will be the first thing on that next MIC sheet.

Thanks all for the worthwhile discussion.

pat
Howie23
02-23-07, 06:08 PM For now... table variation. Britt has recently indicated that in these cases (undefined rules with lasting impact on your PC's equipment) the table Judge who makes the ruling has the final say. So no fear that you'll be altered / voided / ruled illegal / penalized at a future table. (Unless of course the ruling was clearly mistaken.) But you might want your Judge to note / initialize their ruling on the AR.

Steve, where's the reference on this?

I understand the pragmatic reasons for putting this sort of ruling in play, but systemically, I think it is a horrid idea. Judge shopping is just the start of the problem.

David
Britt
02-23-07, 07:36 PM You could very well have a judge the mod after you level disagree with the judge that ruled when you leveled. The judge's ruling is only binding on that table. You can't bind later judges to a particular ruling by getting an earlier judge to rule a particular way and write it on your AR.
chesspiece
02-23-07, 09:07 PM Steve, where's the reference on this?

My apologies to all. I had misunderstood Britt's intent in the Q&A list regarding Judge rulings for items that carry over between tables:

A followup question to this, when we are dealing with things that will have things that continue beyond the table we are at, whom do we ask?

Assuming for a second that it is the judge where the action occured, what can subsequent judges do in response to something that they wouldn't have allowed?

I know this is a can of worms, but table variation on whether or not a character is legal and valid seems even worse,

Rulings on ambiguous situations are up to the judge for the table at which you are currently playing.

I thought Britt meant "currently" = 'Judge making the initial ruling' as opposed to 'Judge for each table'.

Um... yeah, I am a little burnt out this week. :blush:

Before I lie down, I'd like to make a final appeal to Britt. Please ask the WotC Powers to permit Circle rulings when it comes to lasting alterations in equipment (including spellbooks).

One difference between a Living Campaign (L-C) and a Home Campaign (H-C) is in the level of familiarity you can expect the DM to have with any given PC. A H-C DM would probably notice if a PC upgraded the bow from Str+3 to Str+5 whereas a L-C Judge would need to take the time to audit the PC. It isn't feasible to expect every L-C Judge to be aware that this has been done or to take the time to check for objectionable rulings. L-C's already acknowledge this difference in a way by mandating a special type of equipment tracking (whether it be with Certs or ARs & MIL). IMHO, it isn't fair to future Judges to have grey area rulings to "sneak through" at their tables because some past Judge allowed it and they don't have time to audit everything. And if these sorts of things are caught by a future Judge, it can easily lead to hard feelings and a negative experience at the table.

Thanks for your time. /lies down
Howie23
02-23-07, 09:55 PM L-C's already acknowledge this difference in a way by mandating a special type of equipment tracking (whether it be with Certs or ARs & MIL). IMHO, it isn't fair to future Judges to have grey area rulings to "sneak through" at their tables because some past Judge allowed it and they don't have time to audit everything. And if these sorts of things are caught by a future Judge, it can easily lead to hard feelings and a negative experience at the table.

Brainstorming...

How about a Judgement Record (JR) or similar document that can be provided on issues regarding PC development or other long term items that have a lifetime beyond the table.

I think the objection would lie in putting an additional burden on Triad/Circle, such that it may make sense to delegate to a rules monkey, master level judge, or similar.

David
kegdrainer
02-24-07, 10:26 AM You could very well have a judge the mod after you level disagree with the judge that ruled when you leveled. The judge's ruling is only binding on that table. You can't bind later judges to a particular ruling by getting an earlier judge to rule a particular way and write it on your AR.

If it is something that can be handled at the Circle level, then why has it not been settled? I can understand if WOTC has something in the works that you can not discuss, then just say it is being worked on and at what level. Since this is one very large game, we need to try being as consistant as we can. Leaving the choice up to the DM every game will get old very quick. What is allowed in a local game might not be allowed at a con and cause an inconvenience as the player has to change things around.

A few things I agree and feel should be implemented. I can understand that spells that you get for free should not have a value in order to prevent players from selling them and gaining free money. I also feel that players that do purchase a BBB should keep their spellbook(s) in case something happens to it.

As for what spells you have after you die and gain that level back, that is up to the powers that be, but it still needs to be fixed. If this subject has been brought up a number of times, then a sticky PBE (Problems being examined) here might be a good idea so the players can see what problems in the game are currently being looked at and not have to ask every few weeks.
TallGuy
02-24-07, 04:15 PM My evoker at 4th level will have the following free spell pages:
13 cantrips, 8 level 1 and 4 level two. Total = 29 pages.

I will have purchased 10 level 1 spells, and two level two spells. Total cost (some were from an AR Spell book 50 GP/page) was 1,200 GP.

So my spell book, at 50GP/page would be worth 2,150 and I paid 1,200 for it. Not a bad deal.

There's just one error in that logic.

You can never get more out of it than you paid for it. You can sell the book for 700 gp (half of what you actually paid for it).

Bas Vermeulen
Timlagor
02-25-07, 10:24 AM You can recover up to the full amount you paid for something but no more.

My understanding is that wizards do have to buy the base book that they get their spells in so it can't compeltely vanish when they get Raised.
kegdrainer
02-26-07, 11:38 AM You can recover up to the full amount you paid for something but no more.

My understanding is that wizards do have to buy the base book that they get their spells in so it can't compeltely vanish when they get Raised.

As far as I can tell, the first book is free, nowhere does it say they have to spend 15gp for the book when they first gain a level as Wizard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
soonerpat 02-21-07, 06:16 PM	Can a wizard sell a spellbook? If you can, what do you get for it an how do determine the value? Is it 100 gp/page? Thanks - pat
Britt 02-21-07, 06:19 PM	You sell for 50 gp/page.
boolean 02-21-07, 10:14 PM	You sell for 50 gp/page. Shouldn't the price be based on how many spells (and what level) are scribed in the book? What if the character has an ability to use less pages per spell when scribing (e.g. Geometer's "Book of Geometry" ability, Boccob's Blessed Book)? This means there isn't always the usual correlation between number of pages and spell level.
Britt 02-21-07, 10:23 PM	The rules are in the PH and I'm pretty sure it's 50 gp/page.
Southernskies 02-22-07, 08:04 AM	Several points to remember: 1. You can only sell spellbooks you have bought onto your MIL. 2. All items on the MIL are sold at half price. 3. Most spellbooks are currently priced at 50gp/page in adventures, so you would sell them for 25gp/page. 4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else. Since it has also cost you 100gp/page to scribe in the first place and can't sell it to another PC, why would you want to? Admittedly, you can scribe a second spellbook at 1/2 price (so 50gp/page), which becomes cost neutral based on its value.
ranagrande 02-22-07, 08:32 AM	4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else. Since it has also cost you 100gp/page to scribe in the first place and can't sell it to another PC, why would you want to? Admittedly, you can scribe a second spellbook at 1/2 price (so 50gp/page), which becomes cost neutral based on its value. Many wizards sell their personal spellbooks after getting a Boccob's Blessed Book. Now that the BBB is Open access, I expect that this will become even more common.
chesspiece 02-22-07, 11:26 AM	1. You can only sell spellbooks you have bought onto your MIL. 2. All items on the MIL are sold at half price. 3. Most spellbooks are currently priced at 50gp/page in adventures, so you would sell them for 25gp/page. 4. If you're planning to sell your personal spellbook, there are a large number of issues that open up; not least of which is the fact that you would now be required to make a spellcraft check to memorise spells by borrowing a spellbook with those spells in from someone else. 1. You can sell the spellbook that you started with (Wiz1 gives you a book for free). Of course you can't sell for more than you've paid for something in LG so it's worth up to 0GPs (includes starting cantrips & level1 spells + free spells from levelling). This maximum cap will increase equal to what you've spent on learning & copying spells to date. These values will appear on your ARs - but not your MIL. 2&3. Per PHB rules, 50gp/page of spells _is half price_! It just happens that this is the same price that PCs (and everyone else) buys used spellbooks at. As opposed to the 100gp/page that it takes the original owner to scribe spells into the book in the first place. (No sale price exception is given for copying spells that you already know - which is more likely with the Master Spellbook rules.) It helps me to think of spellbooks as working like Trade Goods. 4. Yup, better copy them into a BBB first.
kegdrainer 02-22-07, 09:53 PM	Since you all are talking about spellbooks, rather than starting a new topic for a short answer, I will toss it in here. My character has a spellbook when he was a wizard but died and has not taken any wizard levels (was F1/W1, now F2/Rgr3). If I take a level in wizard, do I get a new spellbook with new spells? Can I still use the old one?
soonerpat 02-23-07, 12:02 AM	This has raised some interesting questions, and at the risk of personal loss... Here's what I was planning and why I asked the question. My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips. If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it. While my wizard will be happy to recoup most of the gold spent on his book, it doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the rules, which is to be able to recoup 1/2 of what you sell something for. May I suggest to Britt and the other leaders that they write a brief dispel confusion to clarify this soon to be very common event? I see three options: Let us sell the book at 50GP / page Rule that cantrips are worth 0 GP/page, but the rest are sold for 50 GP/page Use a formula like the one below, which is really too much work for the little gain. I recommend #1 (because I'm greedy! :P ), but think #2 is simple enough for everyone to remember and at least prevents wizards from making about 800 GP off their cantrips. #3 is simply too much for people to have to keep track of. Pat Smith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ PS. here's a geeky examination of a method to estimate very closely the number of pages you actually paid for.. Skip this if you want to avoid extreme Geek analysis syndrome (EGAS) Count the pages in the book: P Count the cantrips in the Book: C Note the wizard's Level: L A close estimate of the free pages a wizard of level L has received from levels is: (L * L)/2. (The exact formula is 0.5023LL + .9368L + 1.3692, but that's really geekin' out on it!). The number of pages that may be sold at 50 GP each is: P - C - F. These pages are sold at 50 GP/page. So for my wizard, at 4th level: 43 Pages in the book. P = 43 15 Cantrips. C = 15 4th Level (44/2 = 8). F = 8 43-15-8 = 20 pages. Using this rule I can sell the book for 1,000 GP.
Japangirl 02-23-07, 12:30 AM	This has raised some interesting questions, and at the risk of personal loss... Here's what I was planning and why I asked the question. My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips. If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it. While my wizard will be happy to recoup most of the gold spent on his book, it doesn't quite seem in the spirit of the rules, which is to be able to recoup 1/2 of what you sell something for. May I suggest to Britt and the other leaders that they write a brief dispel confusion to clarify this soon to be very common event? I see three options: Let us sell the book at 50GP / page Rule that cantrips are worth 0 GP/page, but the rest are sold for 50 GP/page Use a formula like the one below, which is really too much work for the little gain. I recommend #1 (because I'm greedy! :P ), but think #2 is simple enough for everyone to remember and at least prevents wizards from making about 800 GP off their cantrips. #3 is simply too much for people to have to keep track of. Pat Smith ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ PS. here's a geeky examination of a method to estimate very closely the number of pages you actually paid for.. Skip this if you want to avoid extreme Geek analysis syndrome (EGAS) Count the pages in the book: P Count the cantrips in the Book: C Note the wizard's Level: L A close estimate of the free pages a wizard of level L has received from levels is: (L * L)/2. (The exact formula is 0.5023LL + .9368L + 1.3692, but that's really geekin' out on it!). The number of pages that may be sold at 50 GP each is: P - C - F. These pages are sold at 50 GP/page. So for my wizard, at 4th level: 43 Pages in the book. P = 43 15 Cantrips. C = 15 4th Level (44/2 = 8). F = 8 43-15-8 = 20 pages. Using this rule I can sell the book for 1,000 GP. Wow. Someone has too much time on his hands . . .
Southernskies 02-23-07, 03:26 AM	My 3rd level wizard will be able to create a Boccob's book in about 10 more adventures. At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips. Keep in mind that Boccobs requires secret page, which is a 3rd level spell. You're going to either need to be a 5th level wizard or spend an extra 4,875 gp buying the 13 scrolls you need.
chesspiece 02-23-07, 03:14 PM	At that time he will be 4th level, and will have 43 pages used in his spell book and will have spent 2,200 GP on them due to free spells at each level and free cantrips. If I sell for 50 GP/page I'll get 2,150 GP for it. Which is most of what I put in it. Are you saying that you have bought 22 spell levels (and have 2200GPs spent recorded on your ARs)? And that you only received 21 pages / 43 for free? That doesn't sound right to me. At 4th level, my Int20 Wiz generalist had: 0th:19 (all free at 1st level), 1st: 11 (8 free at 1st level, 2 free at 2nd level), 2nd: 5 (4 free from 3rd & 4th levels). This meant I had 40 pages used in my book but had only paid for 3 of them (300gp). So if I sold that book, I couldn't receive more than 300GPs. Just to make sure we're on the same page here.
chesspiece 02-23-07, 05:05 PM	Since you all are talking about spellbooks, rather than starting a new topic for a short answer, I will toss it in here. My character has a spellbook when he was a wizard but died and has not taken any wizard levels (was F1/W1, now F2/Rgr3). If I take a level in wizard, do I get a new spellbook with new spells? Can I still use the old one? Your question is similar to a debate that's gone around a number of times regarding what happens to the 2 free spells / level for a wizard that dies & relevels. Since the Circle hasn't made a campaign ruling on this, it is 100% up to the table Judge that you ask when you level. In your case: - old book is gone (it was a class feature) - old book is there and you relearn the exact same spells (no new spellbook) - old book is there and you get a new one but you no longer "know" spells in your old book; you can attempt to relearn & scribe or master the old book - old book is there and you get a new one and you still know all the old spells (unless banned due to specializing) The benefit (3+Int 1st level spells) isn't that big either way. You can't sell the book either since you paid 0GPs for it. For now... table variation. Britt has recently indicated that in these cases (undefined rules with lasting impact on your PC's equipment) the table Judge who makes the ruling has the final say. So no fear that you'll be altered / voided / ruled illegal / penalized at a future table. (Unless of course the ruling was clearly mistaken.) But you might want your Judge to note / initialize their ruling on the AR. My advice to Judges: If a Player asks a question like this, make a note of your ruling on the AR in question. Players shouldn't be allowed to "Judge shop" for rulings. Of course if they ask when not playing at your table, then they can still beat the system.
soonerpat 02-23-07, 05:54 PM	Are you saying that you have bought 22 spell levels (and have 2200GPs spent recorded on your ARs)? And that you only received 21 pages / 43 for free? That doesn't sound right to me. At 4th level, my Int20 Wiz generalist had: 0th:19 (all free at 1st level), 1st: 11 (8 free at 1st level, 2 free at 2nd level), 2nd: 5 (4 free from 3rd & 4th levels). This meant I had 40 pages used in my book but had only paid for 3 of them (300gp). So if I sold that book, I couldn't receive more than 300GPs. Just to make sure we're on the same page here. I double checked and found an error in my calculation. My evoker at 4th level will have the following free spell pages: 13 cantrips, 8 level 1 and 4 level two. Total = 29 pages. I will have purchased 10 level 1 spells, and two level two spells. Total cost (some were from an AR Spell book 50 GP/page) was 1,200 GP. So my spell book, at 50GP/page would be worth 2,150 and I paid 1,200 for it. Not a bad deal. Also, thanks to the person who reminded me secret page is 3rd level.. guess I'll have to wait for 5th level. It will be the first thing on that next MIC sheet. Thanks all for the worthwhile discussion. pat
Howie23 02-23-07, 06:08 PM	For now... table variation. Britt has recently indicated that in these cases (undefined rules with lasting impact on your PC's equipment) the table Judge who makes the ruling has the final say. So no fear that you'll be altered / voided / ruled illegal / penalized at a future table. (Unless of course the ruling was clearly mistaken.) But you might want your Judge to note / initialize their ruling on the AR. Steve, where's the reference on this? I understand the pragmatic reasons for putting this sort of ruling in play, but systemically, I think it is a horrid idea. Judge shopping is just the start of the problem. David
Britt 02-23-07, 07:36 PM	You could very well have a judge the mod after you level disagree with the judge that ruled when you leveled. The judge's ruling is only binding on that table. You can't bind later judges to a particular ruling by getting an earlier judge to rule a particular way and write it on your AR.
chesspiece 02-23-07, 09:07 PM	Steve, where's the reference on this? My apologies to all. I had misunderstood Britt's intent in the Q&A list regarding Judge rulings for items that carry over between tables: A followup question to this, when we are dealing with things that will have things that continue beyond the table we are at, whom do we ask? Assuming for a second that it is the judge where the action occured, what can subsequent judges do in response to something that they wouldn't have allowed? I know this is a can of worms, but table variation on whether or not a character is legal and valid seems even worse, Rulings on ambiguous situations are up to the judge for the table at which you are currently playing. I thought Britt meant "currently" = 'Judge making the initial ruling' as opposed to 'Judge for each table'. Um... yeah, I am a little burnt out this week. :blush: Before I lie down, I'd like to make a final appeal to Britt. Please ask the WotC Powers to permit Circle rulings when it comes to lasting alterations in equipment (including spellbooks). One difference between a Living Campaign (L-C) and a Home Campaign (H-C) is in the level of familiarity you can expect the DM to have with any given PC. A H-C DM would probably notice if a PC upgraded the bow from Str+3 to Str+5 whereas a L-C Judge would need to take the time to audit the PC. It isn't feasible to expect every L-C Judge to be aware that this has been done or to take the time to check for objectionable rulings. L-C's already acknowledge this difference in a way by mandating a special type of equipment tracking (whether it be with Certs or ARs & MIL). IMHO, it isn't fair to future Judges to have grey area rulings to "sneak through" at their tables because some past Judge allowed it and they don't have time to audit everything. And if these sorts of things are caught by a future Judge, it can easily lead to hard feelings and a negative experience at the table. Thanks for your time. /lies down
Howie23 02-23-07, 09:55 PM	L-C's already acknowledge this difference in a way by mandating a special type of equipment tracking (whether it be with Certs or ARs & MIL). IMHO, it isn't fair to future Judges to have grey area rulings to "sneak through" at their tables because some past Judge allowed it and they don't have time to audit everything. And if these sorts of things are caught by a future Judge, it can easily lead to hard feelings and a negative experience at the table. Brainstorming... How about a Judgement Record (JR) or similar document that can be provided on issues regarding PC development or other long term items that have a lifetime beyond the table. I think the objection would lie in putting an additional burden on Triad/Circle, such that it may make sense to delegate to a rules monkey, master level judge, or similar. David
kegdrainer 02-24-07, 10:26 AM	You could very well have a judge the mod after you level disagree with the judge that ruled when you leveled. The judge's ruling is only binding on that table. You can't bind later judges to a particular ruling by getting an earlier judge to rule a particular way and write it on your AR. If it is something that can be handled at the Circle level, then why has it not been settled? I can understand if WOTC has something in the works that you can not discuss, then just say it is being worked on and at what level. Since this is one very large game, we need to try being as consistant as we can. Leaving the choice up to the DM every game will get old very quick. What is allowed in a local game might not be allowed at a con and cause an inconvenience as the player has to change things around. A few things I agree and feel should be implemented. I can understand that spells that you get for free should not have a value in order to prevent players from selling them and gaining free money. I also feel that players that do purchase a BBB should keep their spellbook(s) in case something happens to it. As for what spells you have after you die and gain that level back, that is up to the powers that be, but it still needs to be fixed. If this subject has been brought up a number of times, then a sticky PBE (Problems being examined) here might be a good idea so the players can see what problems in the game are currently being looked at and not have to ask every few weeks.
TallGuy 02-24-07, 04:15 PM	My evoker at 4th level will have the following free spell pages: 13 cantrips, 8 level 1 and 4 level two. Total = 29 pages. I will have purchased 10 level 1 spells, and two level two spells. Total cost (some were from an AR Spell book 50 GP/page) was 1,200 GP. So my spell book, at 50GP/page would be worth 2,150 and I paid 1,200 for it. Not a bad deal. There's just one error in that logic. You can never get more out of it than you paid for it. You can sell the book for 700 gp (half of what you actually paid for it). Bas Vermeulen
Timlagor 02-25-07, 10:24 AM	You can recover up to the full amount you paid for something but no more. My understanding is that wizards do have to buy the base book that they get their spells in so it can't compeltely vanish when they get Raised.
kegdrainer 02-26-07, 11:38 AM	You can recover up to the full amount you paid for something but no more. My understanding is that wizards do have to buy the base book that they get their spells in so it can't compeltely vanish when they get Raised. As far as I can tell, the first book is free, nowhere does it say they have to spend 15gp for the book when they first gain a level as Wizard.