Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 04-04-07, 02:03 PM	There's a debate on the LG Yahoo mailing list that I really don't want to carry on here, but something tangential came up that I'm kind of baffled about. According to the SRD, when carrying a medium or heavy load, you are counted as wearing medium or heavy armor for skills and abilities that are restricted by armor. I interpret this to mean a monk carrying a heavy load cannot use evasion, since it requires light or no armor. Others are arguing, because it does not explicitly say in the description of the monk's evasion ability that it is affected by loads, it isn't. Which is correct?
solbergb 04-04-07, 02:23 PM	"Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. " "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." "Like armor, a character's load affects his or her maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty), reduces the character's speed, and affects how fast the character can run, as shown on Table: Carrying Loads. A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. " Short answer - expect table variation. The general note excludes evasion from the things lost from carrying medium or heavy load, and gives a less restrictive answer (allows light armor and shield...so why not also medium and heavy load too). The encumberance says "abilities restricted by armor". So it might override too. Do we go general or specific? The answer is...the judge decides. Note that evasion isn't restricted by armor unless the class ability says it is. A ring of evasion doesn't care your burden or your heavy armor, nor do monsters with evasion by default.
katrick 04-04-07, 03:13 PM	Not if your a Dwarf! pg 5 FAQ Katrick
Timlagor 04-04-07, 05:58 PM	Not if your a Dwarf! pg 5 FAQ Katrick I found the Tumble question... I would not allow a Monk with a heavy load to benefit from (Monk) Evasion.
catsclaw 04-05-07, 01:31 PM	"When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities."Is it specifically because of this statement in the Monk class? There's a couple other examples I've been using -- a ranger's combat style says "He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor" and I don't see any blanket statement about load. Can a ranger fight using their chosen style if they're carrying a heavy load? Similarly, what about a rogue's evasion ability? Or the Spring Attack feat, which can only be used in medium, light, or no armor? I think all of these should be restricted by encumbrance. Do others disagree?
ShinAkuma2 04-05-07, 02:45 PM	A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. Spring Attack, Monk/Rogue Evasion, and the Ranger's Fighting Style are all example of abilities that are restricted by armor. I don't see any other way to reasonably interpret this.
solbergb 04-05-07, 03:12 PM	It's how I rule too. I was just stating the seed for the other point of view.
katrick 04-05-07, 03:36 PM	Evasion under Ranger(9th) Rogue(2nd) and monk(2nd) all mention light or no armor,. but the monk abilities only apply to those mentioned, AC, fast movement, flurry, which suffer the load penalty (not evasion, it says some of the monks abilities and then states them) thats from the PHB, in the DMG it says: that monks and rogues cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures do not have this limitation. nothing about load, and the only movement restriction is about squeezing. Spring atack can't be done in heavy armor.(not medium) pg 161 PHB Like armor, a characters load affects his or her Maximum Dex bonus to AC, carries a check penalty (which works like an armor check penalty), reduces the characters speed and affects how fast the character can run, as shown on table 9-2 Carrying Loads.A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor. so the dwarf thing works but evasion only in light or no armor!! hehe i just deleted the other half of my spiel when i realised ha.. ahhh... ...doh!
Mommy was an Orc 04-05-07, 10:22 PM	Yes. As Evasion doesn't mention load, isn't an ability or skill, you should be able to use it when under a heavy load. Yes, I'm aware it is an 'extraordinary ability', but given that they're going to the trouble to spell out that certain monk abilities don't work with a heavy load, they're probably referring to the 'ability' that has a chapter title... Ability One of the six basic character qualities: Strength (Str), Dexterity (Dex), Constitution (Con), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), and Charisma (Cha).
catsclaw 04-05-07, 10:34 PM	Yes, I'm aware it is an 'extraordinary ability', but given that they're going to the trouble to spell out that certain monk abilities don't work with a heavy load, they're probably referring to the 'ability' that has a chapter title...If by "abilities ... that are restricted by armor" they're only referring to the six basic -- str, dex, con, int, wis, cha -- which are the ones that are "restricted by armor"?
Mommy was an Orc 04-05-07, 10:57 PM	If by "abilities ... that are restricted by armor" they're only referring to the six basic -- str, dex, con, int, wis, cha -- which are the ones that are "restricted by armor"? Generally str/dex. Remember, there's a whole set of ability checks that are defined by DM when it doesn't really fit into a specific skill and a DM can define those for any reason.
catsclaw 04-05-07, 11:27 PM	Generally str/dex. Remember, there's a whole set of ability checks that are defined by DM when it doesn't really fit into a specific skill and a DM can define those for any reason.That's a, uh, unique interpretation. The problem with it is that there aren't any abilities that are restricted by armor, the way that some skills are. Jump and Climb, for example, always apply the armor check penalty. Strength checks do not. Now, I'll grant you, there may be some strength checks that the DM decides you should apply your armor check penalty to, but the lack of any examples of it in the rules, compared with the many, many examples of abilities like Evasion and Fast Movement which are hampered by armor, lead me to believe you're wrong.
Mommy was an Orc 04-06-07, 12:15 AM	That's a, uh, unique interpretation. The problem with it is that there aren't any abilities that are restricted by armor, the way that some skills are. Jump and Climb, for example, always apply the armor check penalty. Strength checks do not. Now, I'll grant you, there may be some strength checks that the DM decides you should apply your armor check penalty to, but the lack of any examples of it in the rules, compared with the many, many examples of abilities like Evasion and Fast Movement which are hampered by armor, lead me to believe you're wrong. Dex Bonus to AC? Yes, that's spelled out by Dex Bonus to AC - but name a single skill that is somehow penalized or restricted by armor that does not: A) already restricted by the skill itself for load B) uses the armor check penalty already spelled out. Yet they say skills anyway Anyway...Fatigue from wearing heavy armor? Evasion and Pursuit? Wearing Armor non-proficiently?(Wizard wearing Leather armor and with a heavy load is penalized 6 to all strength checks) Etc...
Timlagor 04-06-07, 10:09 AM	Mommy I think you're way off base: D&D rules just aren't written that carefully where normal English words are concerned. At my table all those abilities will fail under a heavy load. The only thing I consider a step too far in this regard is ASF for Bards in light armour.
Mommy was an Orc 04-06-07, 10:33 AM	Mommy I think you're way off base: D&D rules just aren't written that carefully where normal English words are concerned. Exactly. They're not. They went through to the trouble to spell out that Monk 3.5(where 3.0 was not) was affected by load in one particular way, didn't change Evasion, when they could have put a simple note in the front of the classes section. I'm pretty sure that they just meant 'if there's anything we didn't cover in terms of ability scores and skills, here's the rule of thumb'
JamesMaissen 04-06-07, 02:04 PM	I think all of these should be restricted by encumbrance. Do others disagree? Yes. I do. Atleast by the rules as written. One may argue that the designers should have made them restricted by encumberance, but that is a separate discussion to my thinking. Now, for some abilities they delineate restrictions including encumberance loads and for some they do not. I think that this should be taken to have meaning. The most telling of these is the monk class description which takes the time to spell out twice that load matters for certain of the monk abilities. It mentions it in the summary and in each ability description. To apply it to other monk ablities that isn't listed in either seems wrong. The rules suffer from generic names. The worst and most famous being 'level' of course. So care should go into applying a ruling based on something that is a fairly generic name, such as 'ability'. It needs to be taken in context to see how consistant things are. That is where the rules benefit from being redundant. They take the time to print out this extra bit in multiple places. If it's randomly done then the rules are bad. Period. In my mind it should be assumed that they were done with a purpose without strong evidence to the contrary. Interpretations on generic words aren't strong enough in my mind to say that writings elsewhere must be inconsistant and shoddy. -James