Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 02-25-07, 11:36 PM	This is not specificallt addressed in the rules. Can you retrain a feat that was given you because of class. i.e. Ranger gets track feat at 1st level. Can he retrain that feat?
King Kashue 02-26-07, 12:08 AM	Imo, it is specifically addressed in the retraining rules, it's just subtle :D The bonus feat you get is a class feature. Thus it falls under class feature retraining. And thus you can only exchange it for another class feature. For something like track, there is no choice, so you don't have an option. A monk, on the other hand, would be able to retrain imp. grapple for stunning fist, since those are both options at 1st level. The other thing that seems to address it (in both cases, actually) is in the feat retraining rules: (PHBII p. 193) "You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat"... The 1st level ranger didn't select the track feat (there was no choice), therefore you can't choose another one... The only real question is something like the monk...Is he retraining a class feature, or is he retraining a feat? The cost is different for the two...:D
bitznarf 02-26-07, 12:14 AM	The only real question is something like the monk...Is he retraining a class feature, or is he retraining a feat? The cost is different for the two...:D Not in LG I don't think.
King Kashue 02-26-07, 12:25 AM	Not in LG I don't think. Oops...You are correct sir. I was just thinking in general, but for LG it is indeed irrelevant.
zigspatty 02-26-07, 12:26 AM	I'm pretty sure that you can't retrain a feat given through a class unless you actually had some choice of which feat is given. Check out PH2, pg 192 under Class Feature Retraining: Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new option must represent a choice that you could have made at the same level as you made the original choice. And pg. 193 under Feat Retraining: You can exchange feats you prefiously selected for another feat. The first level of ranger does not give any option to take a different feat than track, even if you already have the feat track from some other source. Track is not actually a feat you select, it is a static class feature. (If you took Track as a normal feat before you became a ranger, you could retrain THAT Track feat and use your ranger bonus feat instead.) If you are talking about a fighter's bonus feat OTOH, I'm sure that you could retrain one bonus feat for another bonus feat so long as it would have been a legal choice for you at that time. (Blind Fght for Combat Reflexes, for example, but not Improved Critical if Blind Fight was your 1st level bonus feat) Patty
SirApropos 02-26-07, 05:58 PM	Here's another situation that really isn't addressed either. Say you have levels in Marshal or Healer which give you Skill Focus feats at certain levels. In the case of Marshal is is Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at 1st level and Healer is Skill Focus (Heal) at 2nd level. But if you already have those feats then you can choose any other feat that you qualify for. One of the things people used to do under the 596 LGCS with the old 3rd level rule was take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at 1st level so they could then take the 1st level of Marshal at 3rd level and pick any two feats for that level (the normal 3rd level feat and the in effect Bonus Feat you got by already haven taken Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at 1st level.) Now I wouldn't see anything illegal about doing something like that above but then at 4th level you could then retrain away the useless Skill Focus feat and get to keep the effective Bonus feat without any penalties because technically you had that as a legal choice at the time and retraining away the Skill Focus feat is also completely legal as well since it was a feat you chose at 1st level and is not part of a class feature. Since you would have your Retraining logged on your AR's there is a way to track everything as well so you would have a paper trail to follow.
Puggle Halfwine 02-26-07, 06:08 PM	In the above case I would imagine you lose your "bonus" feat and it is replaced with Skill Focus (Diplomacy). The basic rule with retraining is, you can't cheese it or break the rules in any way. Remember that the spirit of the rules is just as important as the letter.
Howie23 02-26-07, 06:54 PM	The basic rule with retraining is, you can't cheese it or break the rules in any way. Remember that the spirit of the rules is just as important as the letter. Yeah, but if everyone followed this idea, everything would be sooooooo....o quiet here. :) Daivd
zigspatty 02-26-07, 09:30 PM	Say you have levels in Marshal or Healer which give you Skill Focus feats at certain levels. In the case of Marshal is is Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at 1st level and Healer is Skill Focus (Heal) at 2nd level. But if you already have those feats then you can choose any other feat that you qualify for. <snip> Now I wouldn't see anything illegal about doing something like that above but then at 4th level you could then retrain away the useless Skill Focus feat and get to keep the effective Bonus feat without any penalties because technically you had that as a legal choice at the time and retraining away the Skill Focus feat is also completely legal as well since it was a feat you chose at 1st level and is not part of a class feature. Except that such a situation is already covered in the rules. You need to check out pg. 192 of PH2 again: Change one class feature option to another legal one. The new option must represent a choice that you could have made at the same level as you made the original choice. Also, the new choice can't make any of your later choices illegal Retraining the Skill Focus would make your later choice of a bonus feat illegal. Therefore, you can't retrain the Skill Focus away. You COULD retrain the "bonus feat" for another feat that meets the requirements of the original, though. Patty