Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanadium 04-16-07, 08:28 PM	Hello, all. Recently I played in a mod where I obtained AR access to a fairly large spellbook from an enemy wizard. Looking through it, I saw there really wasn't anything I wanted, except for a limited spell that's on my list of good things to get. Unfortunately, the book has no discount applied to it (valued at 100 gold/page filled) and the spells come in three flavors: Already have it, can't ever cast it (roughly 60% of the worth of the book ), and the one limited spell I want. So, I ask a question I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to, and I really don't like what I know. In the LGCS, it says if a book is recovered in mod and not on an AR, I can copy from it, but only immediately after that mod. If it is on the AR, I can buy it and scribe from it later. What I want to know is can I copy from the book immediately following the mod without buying it? This book is listed on the AR, but could I apply the no purchase= immediate scribing only rule to it? I have not played any mods following this one, so I should still be able to fall under this clause if it works. Also, even if I do not purchase the book, am I considered to have access to that limited spell, as in can I pick it up from one of my free spells per level or legally copy it down from a wizard that did buy the book? I'm thinking no to both, which really sucks, seeing as this truly is one of the better limited spells for my wizard. Its definitely within my top 5 limited spells, but I'd really hate to pay 3900 gold for a 100 gold spell. Not to mention the 2400 gold or so I'll never see again. Also, one last question. This book was given to us via a seperate AR (due to size, I guess). On this AR for the different APLs the mod could be played at, the book had different spells. Each higher APL said it had the spells of every APL below it, plus some new ones for each of the APLs. As in, for APL 6, the book says: all the spells of APL4, plus... Can I buy this book from a lower APL than I played? The spell I want first appeared at APL 4 and I played at APL6. There isn't a huge cost difference between the books, but its better than nothing. Thanks for any help, even though I'm pretty sure this doesn't end well for me.
Howie23 04-16-07, 10:37 PM	<snip> In the LGCS, it says if a book is recovered in mod and not on an AR, I can copy from it, but only immediately after that mod. If it is on the AR, I can buy it and scribe from it later. What I want to know is can I copy from the book immediately following the mod without buying it? <snip> Can I buy this book from a lower APL than I played? The spell I want first appeared at APL 4 and I played at APL6. There isn't a huge cost difference between the books, but its better than nothing. <snip> You can copy spells from a captured spellbook if the spell is open to you. The spell does not become open to you until you buy the spellbook or scroll that it appears on. You can buy it, scribe it, and sell it (50% market, not more than paid). You cannot scribe a non-open spell merely from finding/looting it. I have seen the bigger spellbook issue resolved sometimes as volume 1, volume 2, volume 3, etc. If that wasn't done here, then it sounds like you have to buy the whole thing. I'm not certain from how it is described, though. David
Maesto 04-17-07, 12:08 PM	I'm not up with how it works nowadays, but it used to be that you could copy a limited spell straight out of it on the AR on which you plundered the book. If somebody can find a reference, that would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Jolyon
Sieylianna 04-17-07, 12:39 PM	You need to purchase the limited spell to have access. The LGCS example AR says that for each APL, you can purchase all the items from the lower APL's. So there is justifcation for buying the lower APL version (although I will admit it doesn't make sense that the wizard had four versions laying around.). Your best bet would be to post your question to the Greyhawk rules thread. Ed
Howie23 04-17-07, 01:06 PM	I'm not up with how it works nowadays, but it used to be that you could copy a limited spell straight out of it on the AR on which you plundered the book. If somebody can find a reference, that would be greatly appreciated, thanks. This changed or was clarified Sept 2006. You now must buy the book/scroll for a limited spell. Q: If I find a spell in a spellbook, on a scroll, or in some other written form, do I have access to it? A: If you find a spell on your spell list in a written item, once you purchase that item, you now have access to the spell. For example, if a sorcerer finds and purchases a spellbook with the spell snake’s swiftness in it, he may choose to learn the spell at his next available and valid opportunity. If there’s any question as to whether the spell is actually written on or in the purchasable item, it is not valid for this type of access. Valid examples include scrolls, spellbooks, tablets, and notes. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060921a David
Vanadium 04-17-07, 01:25 PM	This changed or was clarified Sept 2006. You now must buy the book/scroll for a limited spell. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgif/20060921a David Yeah, its been a while since I've looked at the Dispel Confusions. I knew that I needed to buy the book to get access, but I couldn't remember from where I heard that, so I guess it was that particular DC. The book itself, looking closer at the AR, seems to all but say that I only find the most current version of it, and that's the one at my current APL. Still, it really stinks that I can't even cast spells that approximate half the worth of the book. That, and there is no discount applied to it (well, there is, but it equals the worth of the PHB cantrips in the book, so that really isn't a reduction of cost in my mind). I can live without the spell, which is Nerveskitter by the way, but as a battlefield controller, that +5 to inititive would have been nice to have. Like I said, its nice, but its not worth 3000 gold to have. Of course, if it were something else from my list, like the Transpositions or Greater Slide, well, then I'd probably get the book. Of course, that's neither here nor there.
chesspiece 04-18-07, 04:31 PM	There is a loophole you can still use. ARs can over-rule your purchase price (discounts, higher/lower quality, appearance, etc.) but they don't change the Selling Price / Market Price of items appearing in a sourcebook (PHB in this case). Of course, the LGCS ensures that no PC can make a profit from buying & selling items. I'm not clear on your pricing so I'm going to make up a new example. PC is a Level 5 Wizard. Fun Spellbook: contains 16x0th, 10x1st, 7x2nd, 2x3rd Price on AR = 3,000GP Pages filled with spells = 46 Option 1 - You buy it for 3,000GPs. You copy a 1st-level spell for 100GPs. You can sell the book for 2,300 GPs (50GP / page of spells as per PHB). You spent 100GPs and lost 700GPs. Option 2 - You buy it for 3,000GPs. You Master it (2 TUs and a Spellcraft roll), saving on copying costs. You reach Wiz6 and put your 2 free 3rd-level spells into the Fun Spellbook. You reach Wiz7 and put your 2 free 4th-level spells into the Fun Spellbook. You scribe everything onto a Blessed Book. Then sell the Fun Spellbook (60 pages = 3,000GPs). Assuming you'd have bought the B'sBB anyways, you spent 0GPs and lost 0GPs.
LachlarlanIII 04-18-07, 05:09 PM	Hasn't it been stated that buying and selling spellbooks are at a 1:1 ratio. In other words, what you pay to buy it is what you get when you sell it later. So you could buy it in the mod you find it, then next mod sell it off for the full value you paid.
Redfist 04-18-07, 05:27 PM	Maybe - but I don't recall seeing it. As far as I know, spellbooks (like any other item) fall into the "buy at full, sell at 1/2" category. Confirmation?
magebeast 04-18-07, 06:34 PM	Hasn't it been stated that buying and selling spellbooks are at a 1:1 ratio. In other words, what you pay to buy it is what you get when you sell it later. So you could buy it in the mod you find it, then next mod sell it off for the full value you paid. The reason that Casey and Britt said this was because almost all spellbooks are "sold" to players and half cost.
Timlagor 04-19-07, 09:57 PM	There is a loophole you can still use. ARs can over-rule your purchase price (discounts, higher/lower quality, appearance, etc.) but they don't change the Selling Price / Market Price of items appearing in a sourcebook (PHB in this case). Of course, the LGCS ensures that no PC can make a profit from buying & selling items. I'm not clear on your pricing so I'm going to make up a new example. PC is a Level 5 Wizard. Fun Spellbook: contains 16x0th, 10x1st, 7x2nd, 2x3rd Price on AR = 3,000GP Pages filled with spells = 46 Option 1 - You buy it for 3,000GPs. You copy a 1st-level spell for 100GPs. You can sell the book for 2,300 GPs (50GP / page of spells as per PHB). You spent 100GPs and lost 700GPs. Option 2 - You buy it for 3,000GPs. You Master it (2 TUs and a Spellcraft roll), saving on copying costs. You reach Wiz6 and put your 2 free 3rd-level spells into the Fun Spellbook. You reach Wiz7 and put your 2 free 4th-level spells into the Fun Spellbook. You scribe everything onto a Blessed Book. Then sell the Fun Spellbook (60 pages = 3,000GPs). Assuming you'd have bought the B'sBB anyways, you spent 0GPs and lost 0GPs. This is rather sneaky but I agree that it works and it seems to me that you're only using Campaign Rules to correct an odd situation created by Campaign Rules (as opposed to something that is supposed to be a balancing factor in D&D). ..ordinarily there would be nothing to stop a Wizard from selling his '2 free spells' for profit anyway.
Howie23 04-19-07, 10:46 PM	This is rather sneaky but I agree that it works and it seems to me that you're only using Campaign Rules to correct an odd situation created by Campaign Rules (as opposed to something that is supposed to be a balancing factor in D&D). ..ordinarily there would be nothing to stop a Wizard from selling his '2 free spells' for profit anyway. I'm not convinced that it works. The level up spells are being acquired for xero cost, and then sold at a profit. I, personally, wouldn't do it. David
lostpike 04-20-07, 08:58 AM	You also can prepare a spell from a found spellbook by making a DC15+spelllevel spellcraft check (pg 178 PHB).
KShaver 04-20-07, 10:02 AM	I'm not convinced that it works. The level up spells are being acquired for xero cost, and then sold at a profit. I, personally, wouldn't do it. David They still increase the base value of the spellbook, the LG limitation is that he can not sell it for more than he paid for it. Since he is not trying to make a profit, it seems legit. As stated it is already the norm that most spellbooks are bought at half price and sold back for the exact same price. Also notice for this to work he has to spend the money for the book and then sit on it for two level ups. Lastly the method doesn't work at all w/o a blessed book, which is a bit of an investment (though worthwhile in the long run).
Howie23 04-20-07, 10:23 AM	They still increase the base value of the spellbook, the LG limitation is that he can not sell it for more than he paid for it. Since he is not trying to make a profit, it seems legit. If you acquire something for zero cost, and then sell it for non-zero cost, you have made a profit. It's being justified as being part of a package sale. It's a question of how how detailed a fashion you view the transaction. I understand the logic, but view the prohibition on making a profit being at each constituant element of the transaction. David
Timlagor 04-20-07, 09:05 PM	BUt you don't. there is only one item involved: the spellbook You acquire it at a cost (thousands of GP in this case) You sell it again at no more than that cost. You happen to have done stuff in between The spells you gain at level up are not in any way an "item": the item is "spellbook" and it is not divisible. That said if it was a situation that didn't arise purely due to campaign rules I would be highly dubious.
Redfist 04-21-07, 12:03 AM	This sounds "too good to be true". I was previously thinking if you buy a spellbook for X, you sell it back for X/2 (just like all items). I have a spellbook I bought in an out-of-region mod. It's cost was $2950 and I was happy to pay it (plenty of good limited spells). I just computed the # of pages and at 50gp per page, the book was worth $5200. So that means I can sell it back for $2950 and essentially get all of those spells for free (sort of free, they do take up room in my Boccobs Book). Sounds odd, but if it's the rules - who am I to complain? lol
Timlagor 04-21-07, 07:13 AM	Yeah that one is odd Redfist -but 5200/2 = 2600 (so you'd need to stick an extra couple of level-up spells in there) I've just had a thought though: was there something somewhere that said that spellbooks on an AR are assumed to have no blank pages?
Timlagor 04-21-07, 07:16 AM	You also can prepare a spell from a found spellbook by making a DC15+spelllevel spellcraft check (pg 178 PHB). This only applies to spells that the Wizard "knows". Learning a spell is a process that takes a day and a spellcraft check iirc: included in what you do when you master a spellbook and required before/when you can scribe it into your own spellbook.
Redfist 04-21-07, 12:08 PM	Yeah that one is odd Redfist -but 5200/2 = 2600 (so you'd need to stick an extra couple of level-up spells in there) I've just had a thought though: was there something somewhere that said that spellbooks on an AR are assumed to have no blank pages? That's why I multiplied by 50 per page instead of 100 per page to reach the 5200 #.
lostpike 04-21-07, 01:30 PM	This only applies to spells that the Wizard "knows". Learning a spell is a process that takes a day and a spellcraft check iirc: included in what you do when you master a spellbook and required before/when you can scribe it into your own spellbook. It does not say this. It does not state it takes anything out of ordinary to do this. Please refer to the quoted pg above.
pedr 04-21-07, 02:28 PM	PH178: A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. We got this wrong a couple of times before re-checking the rules.
katrick 04-21-07, 05:05 PM	Hello, all. This book is listed on the AR, but could I apply the no purchase= immediate scribing only rule to it? I have not played any mods following this one, so I should still be able to fall under this clause if it works. . I think a major campaign rule point has been missed here, if the AR wasn't signed, it does not exist. If the AR was signed then it has been finalised and therefore you cannot buy/scribe/spend GP on obtaining this spell after the fact of the game.(yes a very nitty gritty bit of bulklshlite) And yes it burns my CN, non-conformist, smite the do-gooders, FTW,kill em' all and let Thor sort em' out, non-existant[Evil] soul or lack there of, to say it. (sorry dude)but just be thankful we don't know your real name.(like anyone would look, or care, insert way too much effort here) Remember that Lawful Evil persons choose to use rules to THIER best advantage(mwahhwahhwahhhhaaaa) katrick
Timlagor 04-22-07, 07:11 PM	It does not say this. It does not state it takes anything out of ordinary to do this. Please refer to the quoted pg above. That's what I was referring to. I don't think I can be any clearer. 1) You must know the spell before you can prepare it from another's spellbook 2) Knowing the spell requires you to have learnt it through the study time + spellcraft check I mentioned.
Timlagor 04-22-07, 07:11 PM	That's why I multiplied by 50 per page instead of 100 per page to reach the 5200 #. Ah .. well... if you're going to expect me to read the whole post.... :rolleyes:
chesspiece 04-23-07, 11:39 PM	1) You must know the spell before you can prepare it from another's spellbook 2) Knowing the spell requires you to have learnt it through the study time + spellcraft check I mentioned. As Tim stated, with only the Core books, 'knowing' a spell required you spent resources. Either spend the GPs to scribe it into your spellbook, or spend the GPs for a B'sBB and scribe it into there (or take it as a freebie during level-up). Until you've scribed it, you don't know it. In addition, the Master a Spellbook rules from CA allow you to learn / know spells without an expense - you can Master an enemy book or an ally's. In LG, they added the TU cost. That's why I multiplied by 50 per page instead of 100 per page to reach the 5200 #. So that spellbook had 104 pages (making it non-standard vs PHB). An important point comes up when we consider non-standard books and / or pricing. Since 3.5 came out, the PHB gave us clear rules for how much a used spellbook can be sold for (regardless of whether it is being purchased by / sold by a PC). However, this isn't a rule that all authors are aware of, so there are pricing variations. This can be treated as a 'discount' or a price inflation due to ornamentation, historical value, etc. I think we all agree that when purchased, one must pay the price on the AR, even if this is different (high or low) compared to PHB pricing. If one sells a spellbook that was previously purchased, there may be table variation. - If it is an unaltered book, should one use the (miscalculated) price on the AR? Should this be divided by 2 when selling? - Should the price always be recalculated using the PHB's 50gp / page of spells? - If the spellbook has been altered (the item no longer matches the one shown on the AR), I believe that the PHB pricing rules must be followed. An exception should be made if the AR specified pricing modifications (+200GP due to gold trim, +1000GP due to historical significance, etc.).
boolean 04-24-07, 03:10 AM	In addition, the Master a Spellbook rules from CA allow you to learn / know spells without an expense - you can Master an enemy book or an ally's. In LG, they added the TU cost. The rules in Complete Arcane state that mastering a spellbook takes one week plus one day per spell contained within. As a 1st level wizard's spellbook generally contains five 1st level spells (15 Int using the elite array) and nineteen* cantrips, this means mastering a spellbook using the rules as written in CA takes 31 days as a minimum. (*This is reduced to a minimum of eleven if the wizard is specialized and has evocation and transmutation as barred schools.) This makes mastering an ally's spellbook during a module impractical, and makes the 2 TU cost in the LGCS look generous.
Timlagor 04-24-07, 11:47 AM	This makes mastering an ally's spellbook during a module impractical, and makes the 2 TU cost in the LGCS look generous. Sure but afaics there is no reason you can't master an ally's spellbook at the end of the module using the LGCS rule. For better realism both Wizards should pay the TU cost and master each other's books. Only useful when you are likely to meet again and you would only master the spells that are there at the time (not those added later) but there are people who find it useful because they travel together sufficiently often.
chesspiece 04-24-07, 12:22 PM	Only useful when you are likely to meet again and you would only master the spells that are there at the time (not those added later) but there are people who find it useful because they travel together sufficiently often. Or because you can copy / rescribe spells that you 'know' for 1/2 price (50gp / page). So if you lack a B'sBB but can Master a spellbook, you can save GPs on the scribing costs.