Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_m_ 10-30-06, 08:43 PM	Ok, so with a mind bender, you get to perma charm things. brings up some questions. 1) Exactly how friendly does a charmed person treat you as. if you charm them, have a good mod on the will save, have sweet bluff / diplomacy, could you feasably convice (with some decent RP talking) an npc to support you by attacking its original party? 2) how does a charmed person react to its original side, now its been charmed to your team. 3) how does one tell a charmed animal what to do. whilst it treats you as friendly, is handle animal the relevant skill. 4) if you have the mind bender telepathy special ability, can you then comunicate what you want the animal to do in that manner? 5) assuming animals dont have a language (low int animals obviously), can you cast suggestion on them if you have aforementioned telepathy? 6) how is suggestion really much different from charm person. both spells seem fairly subjective based on what the DM thinks is a reasonable action for the charmed / suggested creature to do. is there a diplomacy role, or do you decide what charmed / suggested action you will try to get the monster to do, and then take that into account when making the dc for the will save. 7) does the permenant charm ability of the mind bender (the one that acts as a continual suggestion, not push the weak mind, which is just a really long charm) allow you to simply bring an npc monster along with you after you've defeated its original encounter, thus granting you what is basically a companion animal / cohort until such time as you release it. 8) if you charmed a whole encounters worth of creatures, they would all treat you as a friend and trusted ally. would they then be able to be brought along with you (as none of them are hostile anymore, and none of them are angry that you killed their friends) and use them to fight for you? would it increase ecl's, like a pre-combat summon greater planar ally? i have some follow on questions from the above, but il wait for answers on those before i ask, as some of them may become unnescicary. i realise that that was alot of text, alot of questions, and im pretty sure i know the answer to some of them, but i just figured id lump them all together in one block so we can get any kinks out of the sytsem, and hopefully nail down for anyone who was interested / had any queries about the spells / class in question. thanks in advance to replies... arvagor, im looking your direction again. *kiss*
Arvagor 10-30-06, 09:27 PM	Note: any answers are, of course, strictly opinion for the most part... 1) Exactly how friendly does a charmed person treat you as. if you charm them, have a good mod on the will save, have sweet bluff / diplomacy, could you feasably convice (with some decent RP talking) an npc to support you by attacking its original party?The number 1 rule for charm spells: Charm != Dominate -- "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way." In most cases, any charm effect makes the target "friendly", which has the specific meaning of "friendly" under the Diplomacy skill, which means the target "Wishes you well", and possible actions it will take are "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate". 2) how does a charmed person react to its original side, now its been charmed to your team.Charm person in no way changes his opinion of his other associates. He does not "switch sides"; IMO, he is more likely wondering why you are working with those opposed to him. 3) how does one tell a charmed animal what to do. whilst it treats you as friendly, is handle animal the relevant skill.IMO, yes, it would be receptive to attempts at Handle Animal. If it's a wild animal, then trying to get it to do any of the listed tricks would likely fall under the "Push" an Animal function task (DC 25). Not being able to make the DC simply means that the animal is not going to attack you while the spell is in effect (this is why you want a druid in the party if you expect to be charming a lot of animals). 4) if you have the mind bender telepathy special ability, can you then comunicate what you want the animal to do in that manner?Telepathy requires each creature to have a language, which animals don't have, so the PrC's Telepathy ability won't work on them. 5) assuming animals dont have a language (low int animals obviously), can you cast suggestion on them if you have aforementioned telepathy?No. The spell suggestion has the [Language-Dependent] descriptor, meaning: "A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says the spell fails." [emphasis mine] So you say, "Can I use the mindbender's Push the Weak Mind (Sp) ability to attempt the suggestion instead?" IMO, no, because it does not override the fact that your Telepathy does not work on animals at all (because they don't have a language). 6) how is suggestion really much different from charm person.Higher save DC... ;) both spells seem fairly subjective based on what the DM thinks is a reasonable action for the charmed / suggested creature to do. is there a diplomacy role, or do you decide what charmed / suggested action you will try to get the monster to do, and then take that into account when making the dc for the will save.Read the text of the suggestion spell: "You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable." That "sentence or two" is one of the reasons the spell has the [Language-Dependent] descriptor -- you're literally telling the creature what to do. Charm person is much more subjective, in that the only difference between the target's "pre-spell" behavior and post- is that now, you're his friend. With suggestion, there is no such change in the opinion of you, but the target is compelled to take the suggested action as long as it is reasonable -- granted, that too can be subjective, but that's part of the power of the spell. An aside... A DM I know was running one of the Bright Sands mods at a recent con. Whatever level he was running at, I guess one of the bad guys had suggestion either as a spell or spell-like ability. He hit one of the party -- BDF, of course -- who failed his save. The suggestion? "It's very hot out here; please go to Hardby and get some fresh water supplies." :devil: That, IMO, is a perfect example of how suggestion can/should be done... 7) does the permenant charm ability of the mind bender (the one that acts as a continual suggestion, not push the weak mind, which is just a really long charm) allow you to simply bring an npc monster along with you after you've defeated its original encounter, thus granting you what is basically a companion animal / cohort until such time as you release it.As I read it, yes, although if I read it correctly, you only get one use of that ability each day. You also could not keep the creature from one mod to the next. 8) if you charmed a whole encounters worth of creatures, they would all treat you as a friend and trusted ally. would they then be able to be brought along with you (as none of them are hostile anymore, and none of them are angry that you killed their friends) and use them to fight for you? would it increase ecl's, like a pre-combat summon greater planar ally?Presuming they all failed their saves, I suppose its possible. But remember that "You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do." If you charm the minions guarding the lich's lair, do you really think they're going to go against their boss, just because you're their friend now? (Remember, he's still their "friend" also.) thanks in advance to replies... arvagor, im looking your direction again. *kiss*Careful, my wife may be reading over my shoulder...
_m_ 10-30-06, 10:16 PM	thanks for the in depth, detailed response as per usual. a few more thoughts: 6 & 7 .1) assuming this is such, could you, in theory, charm a creature under the effect of suggestion, thus making them both comply with considerate suggestions (ei, why dont you tag along with us. you'll be fed, we'll give you a share of the loot... you know, the whole 'see the world, they said' thing), and treat you as friendly, consequently cememnting them as a party member who is basically under your control (within the bounds of reasonable suggestions, remembering that you could, after wiping out whatever npcs the creature began in a party with, just 'suggest' almost any course of action, with the suffix of, or we'll kill you...).? 6 & 7 .2) as far as i can tell, there is no reason you couldnt suggest (again, with the permenant suggestion Prc ability) that an npc monster basically become your bodyguard for the remainder of the adventure. and of course, as for loot, you could 'suggest' that she shouldnt have to cary all that heavy gear (hence maintaining access, if you forgot to kill it.) 8.2) i am basically assuming that the reason the mind bender has such a massive duration charm is for the purpose of using monsters in other encounters. clearly, as the class knobles its own spellcasting progresion, its using its control over other monsters as its main fighting drawcard. 9) of course, if i can get to 7th level mindbender, i jsut get 24 hour once per day (seem a little pointless anyone? last 24 hours, can be done every day) (and yeah, i know its to stop it being cast on multiples), dominate, which really DOES make it do what you want... 9.1) again, could you charm a dominated creature in order to increase the odds it will do what you want it to? 10) is the relevant test always a straight charisma test? diplomacy? intimidate? bluff? its stands to reason that if you handle animal to effect a charmed animal, that you would handle person (diplomacy / intimidate) a charmed person, in whichn case a huge diplomacy mod would swing charmed mobs fairly well, one would think. 11) am i knod of running over myself here? 12) i ramble too much dont i, especially in the first paragraph. 13) ... *hug*
Arvagor 10-30-06, 10:50 PM	6 & 7 .1) assuming this is such, could you, in theory, charm a creature under the effect of suggestion, [...] (within the bounds of reasonable suggestions, remembering that you could, after wiping out whatever npcs the creature began in a party with, just 'suggest' almost any course of action, with the suffix of, or we'll kill you...).?First, always charm, then suggest -- IMO, if the charm succeeds, then that makes them more disposed to agree with you, which makes suggestions that much more reasonable. Other than that, I think you're good, right up until the "we'll kill you" part -- which means you're threatening the creature, which puts you back into the "unreasonable" suggestion territory... 6 & 7 .2) as far as i can tell, there is no reason you couldnt suggest (again, with the permenant suggestion Prc ability) that an npc monster basically become your bodyguard for the remainder of the adventure. and of course, as for loot, you could 'suggest' that she shouldnt have to cary all that heavy gear (hence maintaining access, if you forgot to kill it.)You don't have a permanent suggestion ability -- you can make suggestions (per the Push the Weak Mind (Sp) ability) up to 3x/day (at Mindbender 8), and you could do it against a creature you had affected with Eternal Charm (Sp), but it is not a permanent suggestion (each use of the suggestion ability would last, at most 15 hours -- 5 hours + 1 hour/Mindbender level). As far as relieving it of its gear, I think that's going to depend on the environment. If a creature of its type would not be caught dead (so to speak) wandering around the encounter area without whatever gear it began with (armor, weapons, etc.), then it might also be considered unreasonable to ask it to give up its gear. 9.1) again, could you charm a dominated creature in order to increase the odds it will do what you want it to?If you've already dominated it, I don't think charming it would have any greater effect... 10) is the relevant test always a straight charisma test? diplomacy? intimidate? bluff? its stands to reason that if you handle animal to effect a charmed animal, that you would handle person (diplomacy / intimidate) a charmed person, in whichn case a huge diplomacy mod would swing charmed mobs fairly well, one would think.The only spell that calls for an opposed Charisma check is charm person; suggestion and the various dominate * are strictly save-based (i.e., the creature either does or does not take the action).
_m_ 10-30-06, 10:56 PM	sweet. thats covered all of my queries. thanks again for the detail / haste of your response. anyone else got anything to add? didnt think so :D
redgamer 10-30-06, 11:30 PM	Mindbender is a weak class and even weaker in a Living enviroment. It's mechanics assume a homegame were the GM can monitor the relative power of the Mindbender's eternal charmed companion. I have a mindbender and use leadership feat and enchantment and illusion spells to get the flavor of the class.
Mommy was an Orc 10-30-06, 11:49 PM	but the target is compelled to take the suggested action as long as it is reasonable -- granted, that too can be subjective, but that's part of the power of the spell. The suggestion doesn't have to be reasonable, it has to sound reasonable. Taking a quick dip in a pool of acid that someone has told you isn't really acid, but rather water, is an example of a completely unreasonable action that sounds reasonable.
Arvagor 10-31-06, 12:22 AM	The suggestion doesn't have to be reasonable, it has to sound reasonable. Taking a quick dip in a pool of acid that someone has told you isn't really acid, but rather water, is an example of a completely unreasonable action that sounds reasonable.That depends; are you asking an asherati to take that dip? :P Seriously, I've heard the "swimming in acid" -type arguments before for charm/suggestion/dominate, and the fallacy lies in thinking that the affected creature is somehow now completely void of all reason and logic once he has been hit withsaid spell. These spells do not change your visual senses, nor aural, nor sense of smell. As a DM, if you're going to be suggesting to my critters that the pool of acid/magma/whatever is really a pool of water, then you better a) have an illusion spell (or multiple spells) up which must be capable of affecting, at a minimum, the senses of sight and smell, and possibly touch, and/or b) be prepared for some opposed Bluff/Sense Motive rolls, since that that pool of water is in the same spot that 5 minutes ago was a pool of magma (and it was a pool of magma yesterday, and the day before that, etc.).
Mommy was an Orc 10-31-06, 08:30 AM	Seriously, I've heard the "swimming in acid" -type arguments before for charm/suggestion/dominate, and the fallacy lies in thinking that the affected creature is somehow now completely void of all reason and logic once he has been hit withsaid spell. These spells do not change your visual senses, nor aural, nor sense of smell. As a DM, if you're going to be suggesting to my critters that the pool of acid/magma/whatever is really a pool of water, then you better a) have an illusion spell (or multiple spells) up which must be capable of affecting, at a minimum, the senses of sight and smell, and possibly touch, and/or b) be prepared for some opposed Bluff/Sense Motive rolls, since that that pool of water is in the same spot that 5 minutes ago was a pool of magma (and it was a pool of magma yesterday, and the day before that, etc.). Actually, you should re-read the description in the Suggestion spell - taking a quick dip in a refreshing pool of acid is listed as one of the 'reasonable' suggestions if you tell them it is really water. A DM saying you had to make bluff checks or illusion spells is rewriting the Suggestion spell. It is a compulsion spell, not a charm spell - compulsion spells force the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works(as per PHB page 173)
Lomiat 10-31-06, 08:51 AM	Actually, you should re-read the description in the Suggestion spell - taking a quick dip in a refreshing pool of acid is listed as one of the 'reasonable' suggestions if you tell them it is really water. A DM saying you had to make bluff checks or illusion spells is rewriting the Suggestion spell. It is a compulsion spell, not a charm spell - compulsion spells force the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works(as per PHB page 173) I'm sure it depends on the type of acid. A clear, reasonably scentless acid that looks, in other words, mostly like a pool of water might pass (*if* the NPC doesn't already know it's acid) whereas if you try to convince the NPC that a bubbling, viscous, green pool is water, he might just look at you like you're an idiot. Ultimately, it's the DM's call how reasonable the suggestion is, even if you're taking the PHB quote out of context and applying it to the mod.
Mommy was an Orc 10-31-06, 10:43 AM	I'm sure it depends on the type of acid. A clear, reasonably scentless acid that looks, in other words, mostly like a pool of water might pass (*if* the NPC doesn't already know it's acid) whereas if you try to convince the NPC that a bubbling, viscous, green pool is water, he might just look at you like you're an idiot. Ultimately, it's the DM's call how reasonable the suggestion is, even if you're taking the PHB quote out of context and applying it to the mod. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter. It says nothing about the pool of acid being clear or bubbling. It says nothing about the NPC knowing whether or not a pool of acid is a pool of acid - in fact, the PC is actually telling the NPC via the casting of the spell that a pool of acid is actually pure water - even if the NPC didn't know it was acid, now he knows(or at least should be mightily suspicious that the PC is planning to do him harm) And via the example of PHB, the NPC clearly can't care if he fails his save. This is not language that sprang out of nowhere either - this language goes back at least as far as AD&D 1.0.
Lomiat 10-31-06, 11:50 AM	I wasn't arguing whether or not the NPC would take the action if he failed his save. Rather, I simply addressed how "reasonable" the request might prove to be; given that the spell has a circumstance modifier written into it, I don't think it's simple to say, "X always works." It depends on the circumstances, so if your PC tries to convince the NPC that his acid trap is in fact a pool of water, as a DM, I wouldn't rule that he gets the -2 to his Will save. In fact, I might give him the +4 to save vs. taking an obviously harmful action.
Mommy was an Orc 10-31-06, 01:11 PM	I wasn't arguing whether or not the NPC would take the action if he failed his save. Rather, I simply addressed how "reasonable" the request might prove to be; given that the spell has a circumstance modifier written into it, I don't think it's simple to say, "X always works." It depends on the circumstances, so if your PC tries to convince the NPC that his acid trap is in fact a pool of water, as a DM, I wouldn't rule that he gets the -2 to his Will save. In fact, I might give him the +4 to save vs. taking an obviously harmful action. Charm Person is not Suggestion is not Dominate Person. Suggestion either works or it doesn't, there is no +4 to save against a Suggestion spell. If you try to make someone take an obviously harmful action, the spell ends - and in the context of PHB, making someone jump into a pool of acid because they think it is now water does not count as an obviously harmful action. If the Suggestion is extremely reasonable, the DM has the option of giving an additional -1 or -2 penalty to the save. He does not have the option of giving a bonus to the save except via houserule. And when something is an example in PHB, you should not be able to overrule it unless there's significant outside reasons why it shouldn't work. If there's a Black Dragon in the pool of acid as an example or the character has to run over a lethal pit trap to get there.
_m_ 10-31-06, 05:37 PM	as for reasonable choices, rather than trying to get the npc to kill itself in some reasonable 'jump-in-acid' manner, you'd be much butter off charming it, then 'suggesting' that it acts as your bodyguard (for a share of the loot of course), for the remainder of the adventure. that way, you defeat the npc, gain a bodyguard, and use the mindbender class as the flavour dictates, a caster who uses mentaly affected slaves to do the dirty work for it.
clannagh 10-31-06, 06:53 PM	To be honest the most viable targets for the mindbender are not the badguys themselves but the by-standers ... "pretty female mind bender charms bouncers and barmen in tavern to defend her honor against thugs" sort of thing. Unfortunately in LG there are usually no stats for bystanders and unlike a home game the GM is not free to just make some up. A mind bender would certianly make diplomatic encounters easy ... "you want to enter the city with out a pass ? why of course friend .. enter"
Arvagor 10-31-06, 07:19 PM	Unfortunately in LG there are usually no stats for bystanders and unlike a home game the GM is not free to just make some up.You don't have to make them up; that's what the NPC tables in the DMG are for... Besides, you can do whatever you want that's not covered by the mod -- you just can't gain any experience or gold from it! ;)
_m_ 10-31-06, 07:31 PM	also not to be overlooked is telepathic comunication. setting up a fight by telling all your allies to prepare, without allerting the enemy. incidentally, if you use your telepathy on a random npc, do they have any way of knowing who it is? i mean, couldnt you potentially freak out random npcs / enemies by shouting things into their minds?