Post/Author/DateTime	Post
redmachined 04-10-06, 09:00 PM	I have a serious question about Leadership score and how it is affected by the death of a cohort, and I am hoping for a binding in-game ruling. MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD! DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED CORS4-02 "HERE THERE BE DRAGONS"!!! MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD! -----------To read, highlight the masked text in the following area----------- Before the final battle in an APL8 run of "Here There Be Dragons", the party attempted to sneak up into the dragon's lair. My primary character's cohort (which is roleplayed as more of a freely-acting, independent character with some loyalty to the primary, instead of a direct servant and/or thrall) failed the Move Silently check, to the tune of -4. (Full plate, 12 Dex, bad roll.) In the final battle, the dragon went in the initiative order before both my primary character and my cohort. The dragon proceeded to fly ahead and use its breath weapon on the party (except for the one character that had beaten the dragon's init roll). My primary character made the save, while the cohort did not. The damage was quite enough to send the cohort into the negatives, and the cohort failed the massive damage fortitude save. Death was instantaneous. The primary character was unable to act before this happened, and the primary character did not order the cohort to take point, attack, or anything else that would really bring the cohort into the lair itself. On the battlemat, the cohort and the primary were standing right next to eachother when the breath weapon was used. -----------Spoiler space ends here----------- Given those circumstances, would the primary character be assessed the -2 penalty to Leadership score for causing the death of a cohort, or is the death of the cohort not the primary character's fault? Furthermore, what can be considered cause to receive the -2 penalty for causing a cohort's death? Can this possibly be a Dispel Confusion topic, since there is a lot of debate and confusion about this rule, and rulings vary from DM to DM?
redgamer 04-10-06, 10:26 PM	While I like the idea of more dispel confusions I disagree that this is causing a lot of debate and confusion. If the DM believes your character caused the death of a cohort that you get the -2 penalty. If you disagree with the GM you can ask Senior GM/Triad/Circle who may or may not let you argue your case. Either way if its not written on an AR it never happened so keep your documentation proper. As a personal matter I would say you in no way caused the death of you cohort. Even if you did unless your party was going to blab about it how would potential new cohorts even know. Have you checked the Leadership table? In many cases the -2 penalty is not meaningful during Greyhawk levels.
WotC_Tulach 04-27-06, 12:02 PM	This is the call of the DM at the table.
solbergb 04-27-06, 01:04 PM	What I'd like to know is if it even "counts" if you go ahead and raise the cohort. Back in 1st edition, it RAISED the loyalty of a henchman to die and be raised, it showed your master cared about you. As a DM I'd assume the penalty only applied if the cohort stayed dead, but I'm curious if the Circle agrees with me, or if it is also a topic to be left entirely to the discretion of the table judge.
Madfox11 04-28-06, 03:45 AM	The circle just answered your question: It is up to the DM at your table. If they think your character deserves the penalty, they should put it on the AR. If you don't agree you can step to the senior DM, or even the Triad, but don't expect them to overturn the decision of a DM lightly. Note though that most people are wearry of the Nodwick syndrome: you let your cohort die all the time and raise him afterwards. While Nodwick's situation is rather extreme, even in a more limited fashion I doubt it is going to increase the loyalty. Pieter Sleijpen Living Greyhawk Circle the Splintered Suns Metaregion
solbergb 04-28-06, 05:12 PM	Not to be argumentative, but the circle didn't answer my question until you spoke. The circle member who responded answered a different but related question. First question: What happens if the cohort dies randomly, just because he was in the party, not by any direct orders? Answer: Judge decides. Second question: What happens if a cohort dies for any reason, but is raised. Does this affect his loyalty? Answer: Judge decides. I don't expect a bonus (as in 1st edition). I just don't expect to be penalized for events that happen to anyone in the adventuring profession. Unrecoverable deaths are a big deal. Death+raise is just a setback, and can happen randomly to anyone at the table. But your answer is clear. Should it happen, that's the argument to use on the judge. I'll be sure to let them know though, that it is entirely up to them how they want to rule, at least based on this forum.