CL as a prereq [Archive] - Wizards Community

CL as a prereq [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marshall
02-09-06, 04:08 AM After countless errata, WotC has finally gotten around to revising the listings for Magic Items to make it painfully obvious that CL is NOT a prereq(see RoDr).....

Is the LGCS going to reflect this?
Maesto
02-09-06, 07:46 AM What do you mean by Caster Level is not a prerequisite? I don't have Races of Dragons (my budget is broken from having to purchase the spell compendium). One of the governing things in magic item creation was that you couldn't create some of the more powerful items until you had the caster level prerequisite.
kegdrainer
02-09-06, 08:12 AM I always thought of it as the CL for any item that is found by a party. If all you need is craft wonderous and fireball to make an item, then the item is crafted at the CL of the maker (CL 5+). Take the ever popular pearls of power. I can see it needing a CL of 17 to make the 9th level one but not a 1st. On the otherhand, the minor cloak of displacement is only CL 3 but it needs a 3rd level spell so it should be CL 5.
Maesto
02-09-06, 08:21 AM The CL listed for a wondrous item (or other item) is always the caster level that you use for determining the effects of the item, especially with regards to dispel magic checks. You should have to have that CL to make the items - for example, if I have craft wand, can I make a 9th level wand of magic missile when I'm only 5th level? No, because that's just stupid, or at least it is to me.
vvincent
02-09-06, 08:35 AM Probably not. That is one of those things that LG does differently than the Core rules. In LG, the Caster Level IS a prerequisite to make a magic item. It's a game-balance thing.

Vernon L. Vincent

After countless errata, WotC has finally gotten around to revising the listings for Magic Items to make it painfully obvious that CL is NOT a prereq(see RoDr).....

Is the LGCS going to reflect this?
A'Talsen
02-09-06, 11:07 AM The CL listed for a wondrous item (or other item) is always the caster level that you use for determining the effects of the item, especially with regards to dispel magic checks. You should have to have that CL to make the items - for example, if I have craft wand, can I make a 9th level wand of magic missile when I'm only 5th level? No, because that's just stupid, or at least it is to me.

The FAQ has spelled out that the caster level is not a prerequisite for creating a magic item. You are absoluetly correct that for all effects you use the caster level the item is created at (boots of haste at caster level 5 would give only 5 rounds of haste, not 10 for example). The caster level given int eh DMG is thus simply the 'most common' or 'average' caster level for the given item.

Thus with your example, no, you could not make a 9th level wand of missiles, you could only make a 5th level one. But you could certainly make a 1st level wand as well. The distinction in caster level is really only applicable in the item catagorys that are not directly spell-storing (wands, scrolls, and most staves you would need the listed caster level becasue it is either the minimum caster level requred for castign the spell, or you are trying to get a greater effect out of an item by specifically crafting it at a higher level).

LG has decided not to use the FAQ in this case, and to restrict item creation based on the caster level.

The rules for magic item creation permit a character
creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another
caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item.
The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the
character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to
cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with
the item creation feat being used to create the item (the
“creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example,
can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat
create items containing any spell (assuming access to the
spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells?
Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum
caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default
caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)
A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create
a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to
cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had
access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an
item or another character).

Michael "Fish" Murphy
Marshall
02-09-06, 01:22 PM Probably not. That is one of those things that LG does differently than the Core rules. In LG, the Caster Level IS a prerequisite to make a magic item. It's a game-balance thing.

Vernon L. Vincent

Is it? Or is it another of those rules that has the exact opposite effect of the intent?

LG already has several restrictions on IC over and above the core rules. Coupled with the VERY limited gold and limits on spell access, using the arbitrary and usually nonsensical listed CL as a prereq is just, well arbitrary and non-sensical.

Take the various energy enhancements on weapons frex, Shockinng and Frost are CL8, while Flaming is CL10(and Thundering is CL5)

Or the above mentioned Cloak of Displacement, where the CL is actually lower than is required to meet the spellcasting prereq.

Or the stat bumps at 6,8 or 10....
Or....
kegdrainer
02-09-06, 01:38 PM Would it work better if say some (more) limitations on creating the item, based on the power of the item, rather than the CL listed in the book?

Minor Wonderous CL 4+ (CL 3 Limited to 1,000 gp)
Medium Wonderous CL 8+
Major Wonderous CL 12+

Magic armor/weapon (Flame +1, Bursting +2, etc.)
+1 CL 5
+2 CL 8
+3 CL 10
+4 CL 12
+5 CL 15
wagnert
02-09-06, 03:13 PM Would it work better if say some (more) limitations on creating the item, based on the power of the item, rather than the CL listed in the book?

Minor Wonderous CL 4+ (CL 3 Limited to 1,000 gp)
Medium Wonderous CL 8+
Major Wonderous CL 12+

Magic armor/weapon (Flame +1, Bursting +2, etc.)
+1 CL 5
+2 CL 8
+3 CL 10
+4 CL 12
+5 CL 15
My memory may be bad, but I seem to remember something like this in Living City just before it died. Actually, most of those limitations (armor/weapon enhancements for instance) are already built in by needing a caster level of three times the plus already.
redgamer
02-09-06, 10:35 PM The wording in the DMG suggestes that CL is a requirement. For the most part this meant items that made sense as common magic items were low caster level and thus mechanically where more common. It kept stuff that should be rare and hard to make out of low level characters hands. There are of course mistakes and typos in assigning CL just like there are mistakes and typos in other parts of all D&D books ever printed.
I, for instance, think the designers purposfully made gloves of strength lower caster level and thus more common while the more useful belts have a higher CL. This is offset by the fact that strength is considered the most powerful/desired stat and the gloves can't be upgraded.
Before the FAQ came out the Circle desided there couldn't be variation on crafting so as the GMs for Living Greyhawk stated that CL was definately a requirement. Since then the FAQ (IMO incorrectly) stated that CL is not a requirement. The circle then said this part of the FAQ will not be used in LG because it is directly contridicted by the LGCS.
afbeer
02-10-06, 05:40 AM Since then the FAQ (IMO incorrectly) stated that CL is not a requirement.

The FAQ states correctly, that the caster level is not a requirement. See also the homepage of Dungeon Masters Guide developer Monte Cook.
redgamer
02-10-06, 11:19 AM Well that information is clearly not at the homepage montecook.com (a great site by the way-i've been using it for years) Its not in his design journal which is where he talks about rules. It may be somewhere but I still think the game is better off with CL as a prereq even if one of a designers says he meant to write the CL is not a prereq when he wrote the 3.0 DMG what is it 7 years ago. There are high CL, low cost items with low level spells as prereqs that would have major affects on how people run their daily lives if they were common.
GreySector
02-10-06, 03:12 PM The wording in the DMG suggestes that CL is a requirement.

DMG Errata:

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

So unless caster level is in the prerequisites section (like for ioun stones) it is not a prerequisite.

-Michael Eshleman

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marshall 02-09-06, 04:08 AM	After countless errata, WotC has finally gotten around to revising the listings for Magic Items to make it painfully obvious that CL is NOT a prereq(see RoDr)..... Is the LGCS going to reflect this?
Maesto 02-09-06, 07:46 AM	What do you mean by Caster Level is not a prerequisite? I don't have Races of Dragons (my budget is broken from having to purchase the spell compendium). One of the governing things in magic item creation was that you couldn't create some of the more powerful items until you had the caster level prerequisite.
kegdrainer 02-09-06, 08:12 AM	I always thought of it as the CL for any item that is found by a party. If all you need is craft wonderous and fireball to make an item, then the item is crafted at the CL of the maker (CL 5+). Take the ever popular pearls of power. I can see it needing a CL of 17 to make the 9th level one but not a 1st. On the otherhand, the minor cloak of displacement is only CL 3 but it needs a 3rd level spell so it should be CL 5.
Maesto 02-09-06, 08:21 AM	The CL listed for a wondrous item (or other item) is always the caster level that you use for determining the effects of the item, especially with regards to dispel magic checks. You should have to have that CL to make the items - for example, if I have craft wand, can I make a 9th level wand of magic missile when I'm only 5th level? No, because that's just stupid, or at least it is to me.
vvincent 02-09-06, 08:35 AM	Probably not. That is one of those things that LG does differently than the Core rules. In LG, the Caster Level IS a prerequisite to make a magic item. It's a game-balance thing. Vernon L. Vincent After countless errata, WotC has finally gotten around to revising the listings for Magic Items to make it painfully obvious that CL is NOT a prereq(see RoDr)..... Is the LGCS going to reflect this?
A'Talsen 02-09-06, 11:07 AM	The CL listed for a wondrous item (or other item) is always the caster level that you use for determining the effects of the item, especially with regards to dispel magic checks. You should have to have that CL to make the items - for example, if I have craft wand, can I make a 9th level wand of magic missile when I'm only 5th level? No, because that's just stupid, or at least it is to me. The FAQ has spelled out that the caster level is not a prerequisite for creating a magic item. You are absoluetly correct that for all effects you use the caster level the item is created at (boots of haste at caster level 5 would give only 5 rounds of haste, not 10 for example). The caster level given int eh DMG is thus simply the 'most common' or 'average' caster level for the given item. Thus with your example, no, you could not make a 9th level wand of missiles, you could only make a 5th level one. But you could certainly make a 1st level wand as well. The distinction in caster level is really only applicable in the item catagorys that are not directly spell-storing (wands, scrolls, and most staves you would need the listed caster level becasue it is either the minimum caster level requred for castign the spell, or you are trying to get a greater effect out of an item by specifically crafting it at a higher level). LG has decided not to use the FAQ in this case, and to restrict item creation based on the caster level. The rules for magic item creation permit a character creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item. The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with the item creation feat being used to create the item (the “creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example, can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat create items containing any spell (assuming access to the spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells? Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character). Michael "Fish" Murphy
Marshall 02-09-06, 01:22 PM	Probably not. That is one of those things that LG does differently than the Core rules. In LG, the Caster Level IS a prerequisite to make a magic item. It's a game-balance thing. Vernon L. Vincent Is it? Or is it another of those rules that has the exact opposite effect of the intent? LG already has several restrictions on IC over and above the core rules. Coupled with the VERY limited gold and limits on spell access, using the arbitrary and usually nonsensical listed CL as a prereq is just, well arbitrary and non-sensical. Take the various energy enhancements on weapons frex, Shockinng and Frost are CL8, while Flaming is CL10(and Thundering is CL5) Or the above mentioned Cloak of Displacement, where the CL is actually lower than is required to meet the spellcasting prereq. Or the stat bumps at 6,8 or 10.... Or....
kegdrainer 02-09-06, 01:38 PM	Would it work better if say some (more) limitations on creating the item, based on the power of the item, rather than the CL listed in the book? Minor Wonderous CL 4+ (CL 3 Limited to 1,000 gp) Medium Wonderous CL 8+ Major Wonderous CL 12+ Magic armor/weapon (Flame +1, Bursting +2, etc.) +1 CL 5 +2 CL 8 +3 CL 10 +4 CL 12 +5 CL 15
wagnert 02-09-06, 03:13 PM	Would it work better if say some (more) limitations on creating the item, based on the power of the item, rather than the CL listed in the book? Minor Wonderous CL 4+ (CL 3 Limited to 1,000 gp) Medium Wonderous CL 8+ Major Wonderous CL 12+ Magic armor/weapon (Flame +1, Bursting +2, etc.) +1 CL 5 +2 CL 8 +3 CL 10 +4 CL 12 +5 CL 15 My memory may be bad, but I seem to remember something like this in Living City just before it died. Actually, most of those limitations (armor/weapon enhancements for instance) are already built in by needing a caster level of three times the plus already.
redgamer 02-09-06, 10:35 PM	The wording in the DMG suggestes that CL is a requirement. For the most part this meant items that made sense as common magic items were low caster level and thus mechanically where more common. It kept stuff that should be rare and hard to make out of low level characters hands. There are of course mistakes and typos in assigning CL just like there are mistakes and typos in other parts of all D&D books ever printed. I, for instance, think the designers purposfully made gloves of strength lower caster level and thus more common while the more useful belts have a higher CL. This is offset by the fact that strength is considered the most powerful/desired stat and the gloves can't be upgraded. Before the FAQ came out the Circle desided there couldn't be variation on crafting so as the GMs for Living Greyhawk stated that CL was definately a requirement. Since then the FAQ (IMO incorrectly) stated that CL is not a requirement. The circle then said this part of the FAQ will not be used in LG because it is directly contridicted by the LGCS.
afbeer 02-10-06, 05:40 AM	Since then the FAQ (IMO incorrectly) stated that CL is not a requirement. The FAQ states correctly, that the caster level is not a requirement. See also the homepage of Dungeon Masters Guide developer Monte Cook.
redgamer 02-10-06, 11:19 AM	Well that information is clearly not at the homepage montecook.com (a great site by the way-i've been using it for years) Its not in his design journal which is where he talks about rules. It may be somewhere but I still think the game is better off with CL as a prereq even if one of a designers says he meant to write the CL is not a prereq when he wrote the 3.0 DMG what is it 7 years ago. There are high CL, low cost items with low level spells as prereqs that would have major affects on how people run their daily lives if they were common.
GreySector 02-10-06, 03:12 PM	The wording in the DMG suggestes that CL is a requirement. DMG Errata: Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. So unless caster level is in the prerequisites section (like for ioun stones) it is not a prerequisite. -Michael Eshleman