Clarifying distinction in the magical sizing debate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
withey

02-04-07, 03:47 PM		i'd like to see LG change back from allowing only one size change to the more standard, a modified two size changes if the spell combination is compatible:

My position: magic can augment and change size. PCs like to have size increased or diminished. Currently, there is a debate that is now tending to say you can only increase or decrease one size category, period, no matter what. I disagree.

I think there is a fundamental distinction between two types of size adjustment spells: form adjustment (hereafter “form spells”) and size adjustment spells (hereafter “sizing spells”). To clarify: sizing spells primarily aim to change size, but leave the basic gross physical form unchanged (merely resized). By contrast, the primary aim of form spells is to change the base creature type, and hence the gross physical form basics. The primary aim of form spells is not to change the base size, however, some forms have different sizes as a gross characteristic of the creature type. Hence, sizing spells change size primarily (and augment or change statistics based on a size change) while form spells change the basic physical qualities and hence the statistics of the physical form change. This is not an augmentation, it is a consequence of the new form.

Does the PHB back this up? I believe so.

Sizing spells in my opinion (reduce person, enlarge person, (mass versions), animal growth, righteous might, etc) are identifiable by the “sizing” clause (every sizing spell has this clause, non sizing spells do not have this clause): “Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second casting of this spell to further increase the size of a [humanoid, animal, etc.] that’s still under the effect of the first casting.” (PHB p. 198 and p. 226-7)

Form spells (alter self, polymorph, wild shape ability (SU), polymorph any object, baleful polymorph*, etc) are identifiable by the “alter self” spell reference “this spell functions like alter self…” Alter self reads: “The new form must be within one size category of you normal size”. “You acquire physical qualities of the new form while retaining your won mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement…” There are some fine distinctions: Alter self says your type and subtype do not change. Polymorph says you assume the new type and subtype. Both still have the “within one size category of your normal size” which means you cannot polymorph into a large creature then polymorph into a huge creature because it still hinges on “your normal size.” Baleful polymorph* is an exception to the size clause, it transform unwilling subjects into small or smaller creatures of 1 HD or less. (PHB p. 263, 202-3, 197).

Now, it seems to me that logically, you cannot have two sizing spells up, since they all contain the sizing clause, cannot adjust size increases (or decreases) to stack. So, enlarge person plus righteous might won’t stack, nor will animal growth and righteous might. Opposite growth polarities cancel: reduce person cancels enlarge person.

It also seems to me that logically, you cannot have two form spells up, since your form changes at the time of casting, and with the exception of baleful polymorph, at the time of casting, the magic knows your personal historical form’s normal size and restricts adjustments to form to be within one size accordingly. (Note, you can use alter self to undo baleful polymorph, since alter self says you can change into your self.)

However, unlike the current clack on the debate wherein some people argue that one must apply the sizing clause to all spells that for whatever reason adjust size, I believe there is a clear way to stack size, but only in particular ways. A PC cannot have two sizing spells up that work in same direction (ex. increase + increase). A PC cannot have two forms spell up, period, so you will never get a sizing stack. However, I see a fundamental difference between gross physical form spells and primarily sizing spells, and while you can only have one of each type up, I believe you can have one of each type up simultaneously. So you can have a form spell and a size spell, but only in certain combinations. Further, as characters progress, spell combinations like delay poison and acid cloud become available. I believe this is a valid spell combination that reflects more powerful party’s capabilities to do more with magic.

Another reason few reasons why I think this combination should be allowed is simply for the fact that not all the spells that result in a size change have the size clause. So, I believe the size clause, despite saying “Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack” should be interpreted to mean “Multiple magical effects of spells with the size clause to increase size do not stack.” The form spells lack this clause because they are not teleologically aimed at changing size as the primary goal. Many people use form spells in certain circumstances to remain medium creatures--something you cannot do with sizing spells. It is a side consequence of the change to the new gross physical form that results in a size difference in form spells. By contrast, size spells have named bonuses, “size bonuses,” to stats, which form spells lack. Different bonus types stack, hence these fundamentally different spell types should stack. And same spell types do not stack since they confer the same type of bonuses.

Hence, I believe some combinations between form and size spells do stack. Some valid combination examples would be: polymorph into a large humanoid and enlarge person, polymorph (assume a small PC) into a tiny humanoid (if one exists) and reduce person, druid wild shape into a large animal and animal growth, polymorph into any large creature of allowable types and righteous might. Only parties with 3rd level casters can do some of these, and only parties with 9th level casters can do the most powerful of these, which is still not as powerful as taking over a hydra with magic jar. So, I think form plus size spells should be allowed as legal LG spell combinations, in a one form plus one size way.

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Jeff Withey
clannagh

02-04-07, 05:16 PM		i'd like to see LG change back from allowing only one size change to the more standard, a modified two size changes if the spell combination is compatible:

My position: magic can augment and change size. PCs like to have size increased or diminished. Currently, there is a debate that is now tending to say you can only increase or decrease one size category, period, no matter what. I disagree.

I think there is a fundamental distinction between two types of size adjustment spells: form adjustment (hereafter “form spells”) and size adjustment spells (hereafter “sizing spells”). To clarify: sizing spells primarily aim to change size, but leave the basic gross physical form unchanged (merely resized). By contrast, the primary aim of form spells is to change the base creature type, and hence the gross physical form basics. The primary aim of form spells is not to change the base size, however, some forms have different sizes as a gross characteristic of the creature type. Hence, sizing spells change size primarily (and augment or change statistics based on a size change) while form spells change the basic physical qualities and hence the statistics of the physical form change. This is not an augmentation, it is a consequence of the new form.

Does the PHB back this up? I believe so.

Sizing spells in my opinion (reduce person, enlarge person, (mass versions), animal growth, righteous might, etc) are identifiable by the “sizing” clause (every sizing spell has this clause, non sizing spells do not have this clause): “Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second casting of this spell to further increase the size of a [humanoid, animal, etc.] that’s still under the effect of the first casting.” (PHB p. 198 and p. 226-7)

Form spells (alter self, polymorph, wild shape ability (SU), polymorph any object, baleful polymorph*, etc) are identifiable by the “alter self” spell reference “this spell functions like alter self…” Alter self reads: “The new form must be within one size category of you normal size”. “You acquire physical qualities of the new form while retaining your won mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement…” There are some fine distinctions: Alter self says your type and subtype do not change. Polymorph says you assume the new type and subtype. Both still have the “within one size category of your normal size” which means you cannot polymorph into a large creature then polymorph into a huge creature because it still hinges on “your normal size.” Baleful polymorph* is an exception to the size clause, it transform unwilling subjects into small or smaller creatures of 1 HD or less. (PHB p. 263, 202-3, 197).

Now, it seems to me that logically, you cannot have two sizing spells up, since they all contain the sizing clause, cannot adjust size increases (or decreases) to stack. So, enlarge person plus righteous might won’t stack, nor will animal growth and righteous might. Opposite growth polarities cancel: reduce person cancels enlarge person.

It also seems to me that logically, you cannot have two form spells up, since your form changes at the time of casting, and with the exception of baleful polymorph, at the time of casting, the magic knows your personal historical form’s normal size and restricts adjustments to form to be within one size accordingly. (Note, you can use alter self to undo baleful polymorph, since alter self says you can change into your self.)

However, unlike the current clack on the debate wherein some people argue that one must apply the sizing clause to all spells that for whatever reason adjust size, I believe there is a clear way to stack size, but only in particular ways. A PC cannot have two sizing spells up that work in same direction (ex. increase + increase). A PC cannot have two forms spell up, period, so you will never get a sizing stack. However, I see a fundamental difference between gross physical form spells and primarily sizing spells, and while you can only have one of each type up, I believe you can have one of each type up simultaneously. So you can have a form spell and a size spell, but only in certain combinations. Further, as characters progress, spell combinations like delay poison and acid cloud become available. I believe this is a valid spell combination that reflects more powerful party’s capabilities to do more with magic.

Another reason few reasons why I think this combination should be allowed is simply for the fact that not all the spells that result in a size change have the size clause. So, I believe the size clause, despite saying “Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack” should be interpreted to mean “Multiple magical effects of spells with the size clause to increase size do not stack.” The form spells lack this clause because they are not teleologically aimed at changing size as the primary goal. Many people use form spells in certain circumstances to remain medium creatures--something you cannot do with sizing spells. It is a side consequence of the change to the new gross physical form that results in a size difference in form spells. By contrast, size spells have named bonuses, “size bonuses,” to stats, which form spells lack. Different bonus types stack, hence these fundamentally different spell types should stack. And same spell types do not stack since they confer the same type of bonuses.

Hence, I believe some combinations between form and size spells do stack. Some valid combination examples would be: polymorph into a large humanoid and enlarge person, polymorph (assume a small PC) into a tiny humanoid (if one exists) and reduce person, druid wild shape into a large animal and animal growth, polymorph into any large creature of allowable types and righteous might. Only parties with 3rd level casters can do some of these, and only parties with 9th level casters can do the most powerful of these, which is still not as powerful as taking over a hydra with magic jar. So, I think form plus size spells should be allowed as legal LG spell combinations, in a one form plus one size way.

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Jeff Withey

dont worry .. silly comment

deleted as not relevant